DIY Platter

[Andrei]

Here is a way to upgrade your 1210 standard platter. The basic idea is to strip away the rubber from the underside of the platter and replace it with a material that is a better at damping. An excellent material for this is Dynamat.

This is the process:

1. Stripping the rubber underside;
2. Cleaning the surface;
3. Cutting the Dynamat to the correct size;
4. Applying the dynamat to the underside of the platter.

Advantages of the DIY method - YMMV;

You will get a better platter - it is really good;
Satisfaction in doing it yourself;
No hassle with transferring the inside of your existing platter;
If you like the look of the original platter;
If you wish to keep the strobe;
The DIY platter will weigh about the same as the original;.


This weight point is important in my opinion. The 1210 was built to certain specifications including strength and torque of the motor. The 1210 motor of course will have tolerance outside the platter weight range, but there is no need to add drag to the motor and weight to the bearing if it is not necessary.

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Dynamat1_zpsedfa6afd.jpg
http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Dynamat2_zps7b0a465b.jpg
Dynamat is a dense butyl. I first came across it when I outfitted my car with an Alpine Stereo System. It is great at deadening sound and vibration. I build PCs and when I can't get an acoustically damped case I use Dynamat.

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Tools_zpsf3bbd5a5.jpg
The tools I used for for stripping the rubber off from under the turntable were a good quality paring knife and a large screwdriver. You could use two screwdrivers. A broad cold chisel might help as well. If you do it carefully it could come off in one piece.

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Stripping1_zps5d58dd7d.jpg
Basically what you are doing is starting around the outside edge of the rubber and working the knife underneath to get a purchase for the screwdriver. When you have enough loosened rubber you can use your hands to pull some more loose. The good news is that you will find that the glue or bonding agent has been imperfectly applied (all the more reason to do the job!) and some of the rubber will come off rather easily. The bad news is that it will require considerable strength and patience to pull it all off.

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Stripping3_zpsa7560ea9.jpg
You can see here that there there are large places where the bonding agent has not connected with the rubber under-mat. Clearly the rubber mat does nothing for the structural integrity of the platter.

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Stripping4_zps1962a22c.jpg
After you have removed the rubber you will see that there are bits of residue rubber and glue left on the underside of the platter. Keep chipping away at it with the paring knife. Your patience will be rewarded. What that is mostly done you must then clean it. I used Acetone, Synthetic Steel Wool and rubber gloves. You can use whatever cleaning method; only be sure you take off 100% of the rubber.

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Stripping5_zps8d8dba5c.jpg
This is what it should look like after you have striped and cleaned it completely.

Before you begin do your quantity surveying to ensure you have enough dynamat. Cut off a corner and have a play. Try cutting it with scissors and a craft knife & metal ruler to get a feel of what you are working with. Also apply some to a spare surface, again to get a feel of what you are doing.


http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Planning1_zps5aa08e8b.jpg
This is the underside of a sheet of Dynamat. The paper peels off revealing the sticky black butyl. Here you can see the outlines of what I am going to cut. The outside will be cut with large scissors and the small holes with nail scissors. Nail scissors are curved at the tip. It is especially handy to have the Dynamat cold when you are doing fine cutting. Prior to cutting and peeling you should also make one or two templates. In the pic of the tools you will see a couple of pale green cutouts. The one with the finger holes is particularly useful. What the template is, is a mock-up of the dynamat you are going to place into the inside of the platter.


http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Template2_zps15921c9d.jpg
When it fits you know that you have got your measurements spot on. If it does not fit then you work out where you went wrong and make another. Once your template it 100% you then place it over the paper-side of your dynamat and see if that matches. In so doing you effectively have a 'dry-run' and you will know with 100% confidence that the dynamat you have cut out will fit exactly.


http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/NearlyFinished_zpsf9d39948.jpg
Here you can see I am nearly finished. Two points to note. One is that you will see the large circle of Dynamat placed into the platter has been cut in two. It did not have to be cut in two and in a previous effort I have laid down one single circle of Dynamat with a large hole in the middle and the two smaller finger-lift holes. That is an OK method. The advantages of cutting it in two are twofold. First, it is a little easier to apply. It is important to avoid airholes or we get the same stuff-up in the original platter. Second, the diameter of the magnet is smaller than the metal ring around it. So a better fit can be obtained by placing it down in two parts. One tip: do a last checking for size by putting down your Dynamat before stripping off the paper backing. The second point to note is the thin strips of Dynamat that around the edge. I have done this by cutting 8 thin pieces and inserting them one by one. One will be 7 or 7.5 mm wide. The other will be 8.5 or 9 mm wide. You will get your measurements with a ruler to get the diameter and do the pi thing.


http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Finished_zps70d2b418.jpg
Here is the finished product.

Dynamat is a great product. It is excellent at Sound Damping. See http://www.dynamat.com/technical_specs_dynamat_xtreme.html for specifications.
It is fairly easy to cut to shape. (Hint 1 - use a knife and straight-edge in preference to scissors where possible, Hint 2 - it cuts a little more tidily if it has cooled in the fridge first.)
It bonds to the metal surface very well. See http://www.dynamat.com/technical_installation_basic_installation.html for instructions on applying it.
It weighs about the same as the rubber it replaces.

The original platter is not good. If you hold it by the magnet and tap it with a spoon you can hear it rings like a gong. Incidentally If you do the same test after you have stripped the rubber it resonates about twice as long. so I estimate that the rubber damping is about 50% effective ... pretty useless. The same tapping test after the Dynamat is in place produces no ringing. It is almost as dead as Monty Python's Parrot. In terms of sound difference it worked really well and I felt the base tightened up nicely.

[Marco]

Great work, Andrei! :clap:

It neatly highlights, yet again, the very obvious limitations of the stock platter, which MUST be addressed before one can genuinely call the Technics a 'hi-fi turntable'!

:exactly:

Marco.

[NRG]

This may be of no importance but did you rebalance the platter or check? It may not need it but I'd be curious to know if you've put the platter out of balance by a small amount.

[Andrei]

This may be of no importance but did you rebalance the platter or check? It may not need it but I'd be curious to know if you've put the platter out of balance by a small amount.
Really good question. The short answer is 'No'. However that is not to say I have not considered it. Balancing is surely important. If it is not balanced then the heavier side will have more centrifugal force and this will result in one side of the bearing taking more pressure. It is for precisely this reason that I am slightly obsessive about accuracy in cutting and placing the Dynamat. Allowing for the finger holes is something that will help in that it forces you to get it right to some extent. I have a spare bearing and have balanced the three platters that I have done by placing them upside down on the bearing. There is no shift to any side, though it must be said that is not a particularly accurate test, hence the 'short answer'. If you can think of a way to test balance accurately I would be very grateful as once an imbalance is detected it would be easy enough to correct. My thinking at the moment is that just as with the additional weight there would be some tolerance for minor imbalance. Belt driven turntables have this problem by necessity as the belt is always pulling in one direction, and it seems not to be a concern. I have pulled the standard bearing completely apart and it looks as if it could take a zillion kgs of side-wards thrust without batting an eyelid.

Thanks for raising this and any suggestions are welcome.

[JazzBones]

Great idea Andrei and congrats on the excellent pictorial procedure guide. Did something like this to dampen the underneath of the cast ali chassis pan sometime back.
I already have a MN Ali/Cu platter but you have alerted me to a product that I could use to help deaden the sound of my Moth Mk3 pro RCM which when fired up in anger makes an unbearable racket. The thermal properties of Dynamat used in the manner I have in mind may or may not cause an over heating prob but there are vent holes in my RCM. Big sorry for thread drift and keep posting your ideas and implementations mate. I have found that there is always multiple usage for products other than originally intended, squash balls anyone? :)

Ron

[Oldpinkman]

Looks good, and I take it is sounding good, so great result. To answer some of your questions based on what a chum of mine tells me (who incidentally produces a belt drive turntable using his patented vector idea, which doesn't create that pull you refer to, although I don't think bearing strain is the primary reason for it - I'm not sure what the quoted service interval on a belt drive bearing is but there's a few that have gone round the clock, and the thrust surface usually wears first).

You are quite right - balance is unlikely to knacker a bearing. It is however quite important to the turntable - the good news being it's nothing special on the standard platter. The effect of imbalance (much more so than mass, or even inertia, within limits) is to put a strain on the servo mechanism (which IS the idea behind vector). For this reason Technics engineers dynamically balanced the platters on the SP10 - issuing a "balance passed" sticker for them (which presumably promptly put them out of balance again - we split hairs).
Damping often improves results but can be unpredictable. It was clearly the solution chosen by the Technics engineers originally, although, as you have demonstrated, not all that well done. However, it is not a panacea. I remember a prototype platter Arthur built our of MDF - about as dead as you could wish for. Not a happy experiment.

Bonding a mat to it on the other side of course also damps it to a degree. I'm continuing to enjoy my own newly acquired Technics record playing device. Happy listening :)

[CableMaker1]

Thanks for this tip. Back to ebay to purchase another round of Dynamat Extreme for this application. I applied this inside my speakers - to prevent ringing from the drivers and passive radiators, apply it to the outer metal baskets. This will help deaden the ringing that resonates from your speakers. No need it to apply it to tweeters magnet since it does not resonate.

[Tarzan]

Thanks for this tip. Back to ebay to purchase another round of Dynamat Extreme for this application. I applied this inside my speakers - to prevent ringing from the drivers and passive radiators, apply it to the outer metal baskets. This will help deaden the ringing that resonates from your speakers. No need it to apply it to tweeters magnet since it does not resonate.


:popcorn:

[MikeMusic]

Great stuff Andrei
I wonder if you have let us in on a new wonder material for use in all sorts of areas

[chris@panteg]

Great work, Andrei! :clap:

It neatly highlights, yet again, the very obvious limitations of the stock platter, which MUST be addressed before one can genuinely call the Technics a 'hi-fi turntable'!

:exactly:

Marco.

So a standard SL1200 is not a hifi turntable ? A lot of folk think that lol

[sq225917]

If you value your bearing this is a bad idea. Anything that upsets the balance of the platter is a very bad idea. That';s why Technics used a moulded part, so the weight distribution of it could be controlled.

[DaveK]

I'm going to expose my naivety here (again :lol: ) but I wonder how important the aspects of weight and balance are in fact. I DIY'd my Techie platter to stop ringing and any eddy currents emanating from the motor (which were once expressed here as having a possible adverse effect on the cartridge) by covering the rubber underside of the platter first with a thin layer of self adhesive copper - this was put on in at least two pieces as I could only find the copper sheet in narrow widths. I followed this up with another layer of the bitumen coated aluminium and soft 'plastic' stuff called flashing tape (from Wickes :) ) . This has added considerably to the weight, as you might imagine but it has certainly stopped the ringing.
It is generally accepted that the Techie is greatly over engineered to enable it to survive in it's original market, namely mobile, temporary, DJ sessions. FWIW my stock PSU has also been upgraded to an off-board Paul Hynes ancient PSR3 which was designed to be supplied by an 18v transformer but when my transformer died (of old age), with Paul's blessing it is now supplied by a 15v R-core transformer. The platter still gets up to speed 'immediately', is rock steady maintaining speed and stops 'dead' when powered down. I have run it continuously for hours just to see if anything changed and it remained cool and stable.
And, to my ears, each of these mods proved beneficial to SQ.
I have a basically original bearing housing but I have provided it with permanent support from underneath. I also have replaced the standard feet with 100mm sorbothane hemispheres - basically a very modified Techie but all DIY. The tonearm wire, tonearm itself and platter mat have also been changed, and the various layers of the deck have been bonded together to aid rigidity. Still recognisable as a Techie though :lol: .
I will now get behind the sofa to avoid the 'incoming'.
Dave.

[walpurgis]

Yes, unfortunately I also think this may not be a great idea. The Techie platter may not be a high mass item in relative terms, but platters are wide and generate significant centrifugal force and upsetting the balance even slightly may have adverse effects. Once the damping has been applied, it may be an idea to get an engineering shop to check the dynamic balance, they are equipped with balancing machines.

[Andrei]

If you value your bearing this is a bad idea.
That presupposes that it is unbalanced. The methods I have applied ensure that if there is imbalance then it will be small. Unless you have seen a white paper or suchlike to the contrary I would have thought the use of a moulded underlay would have been a necessary consequence of mass production. However, in appearance the rubber underlay appears symmetrical, is well centered and would therefore not unbalance the platter, at least while stationary. While spinning the uneven bonding of the underlay would create a tiny imbalance in centrifugal force. I'm not aware of any bearing wear put down to sideways pressure after decades of use either through this or because turntables have not been 100% level, and if that was going to happen to any turntable it would be exactly this one.

I have tried another balancing test. That was to use my spare bearing (a very good one btw, but that is another story) and spin the platters while keeping the bearing almost horizontal. I could not get any of the platters to consistently stop rotating the with a 'heavy side down'. Again not a particularly accurate test, but at least showing that any imbalance is small. The downwards force of the bearing on the base-plate would be a minimum of about 1.6kg - the mass of the platter. With mat, vinyl, and record stabiliser we could have, say 2000 grams. If the imbalance of imperfectly applied dynamat is 1 gram then that is one 2 thousandth of the downwards pressure and even that is applied over a larger area. After some period of time, maybe we are talking decades, it may be necessary to shell out $30 for a new bearing.

In the meantime I would say that if your value your sound quality you should address the standard platter. I have done most of the mods now and the platter mod is significant . Putting on isonoe feet was far and away the most significant improvement. Next would be an aftermarket power supply, aftermarket tonearm, and my platter upgrade. Those three all had an immediate and clearly audible difference. Behind that was a tonearm rewire, headshell upgrade, aftermarket platter mat.

While I acknowledge this is an issue, I presently consider it to be minor, and certainly not one of value. By way of analogy nobody fixes a fire extinguisher to the middle of their boot to ensure that the wear on the rear tires remains as even as possible.

[Andrei]

Once the damping has been applied, it may be an idea to get an engineering shop to check the dynamic balance, they are equipped with balancing machines.
Audiophiles have certainly done stranger things. I did have the idea of taking it to a Tire Shop who do wheel balancing. They have these fancy machines that check the balance of the wheel after a tire has been fitted. The interesting thing is the ease with which an imbalance can be corrected - little lead weights are attached to the rim of the wheel. I have no idea what such a piece of equipment is called but if they do have some such contraption then a couple of pre-weighed pieces (one gram, five grams etc) could be strategically placed. Come to think of it I still have four 'untarnished' platters ... will anyone offer me odds that they are perfectly balanced!

[NRG]

You could experiment by delibratley unbalancing the platter with say a gram of blue tac and use your old bearing held near horizontal as before to see how sensitive it is. Holding the bearing and spinning the platter at the same time would be interesting, I suspect you could easily feel any imbalance.....

[walpurgis]

A tire shop machine would not be accurate enough. An engineering works that balances machined parts should have very sensitive balance checking equipment.

[DarrenHW]

You could experiment by delibratley unbalancing the platter with say a gram of blue tac and use your old bearing held near horizontal as before to see how sensitive it is. Holding the bearing and spinning the platter at the same time would be interesting, I suspect you could easily feel any imbalance.....

Excellent idea! Go on Adrei, spin those wheel of steel... urm aluminum.

[CageyH]

At 33 & 1/3 rpm, any out of balance force will be minimal.
It will probably be similar to the force exerted by a 180g vinyl disc with the hole slightly off centre.
If it was me, I certainly would not worry about it.

As the original platter is also cast, I doubt that the mass and balance is very well controlled.
IMHO It's really not needed at these low speeds.

[Oldpinkman]

As noted before, the stock platter is not balanced, unlike the SP10 which is, and the need to resort to damping - which the stock platter has, is one reason for that. Damping, both standard, and yours, will have sample variation which will unbalance the platter.

Again, as previously noted (cribbing from a mate) it is unlikely to grind the bearing to dust any time soon, although will contribute slightly to accelerated bearing wear. It does affect the servo mechanism of the motor which will seek to make more corrections than with a balanced platter, and that may have an affect on sound. Car wheel balance which has been discussed, does contribute long term to bearing wear, but it has other more immediate consequences like vibration in the car and tyre wear which are more significant

But the stock platter is not balanced, and I don't see countless threads discussing its "warble" at 33 or 45 rpm. The boy is sulking at the moment, but as a lay observation its hard to see how it could be with those 2 holes unless there was some pretty cute casting compensation elsewhere, particularly given the variability that adding damping (on the stock platter) causes. Anyway, you can still pick up standard new replacement bearings for buttons so suck it and see! :)

[MikeMusic]

Excellent idea! Go on Adrei, spin those wheel of steel... urm aluminum.
Love that Avatar !

[CableMaker1]

Anyway, you can still pick up standard new replacement bearings for buttons so suck it and see! :)

Unless you have a Mike New Bearing, which is not buttons, but BIG buttons!!!!


So if any of the following is used on the 1200, can any of these items contribute to additional unbalancing causing wear to the original or a high end bearing if weight is evenly distributed from these items:
centre record weight
record ring
replacement record mat (or an Oyaide or Copper Record Mat designed for the 1200)
?

Given the weight is not much of the original platter, and that the weight of the Dynamat Xtreme replacing the original underside mat will not be a significant difference in weight, how much concern would unbalancing and speed hunting play into such factors?



Now its time for the loaded questions to come out:
Is there a chance that to find a proper machinist with the proper tools and experience to balance our platters, or will this be a futile effort with the 1200s ? (SME, Funk Firm anyone?)

Will using a Mike New aluminum CU bonded Platter with his bearing be unbalanced ? I know this is best left for Mike to answer, but it would be interesting to hear others comment on this.

[DarrenHW]

MikeMusic-

Thanks. 3PO usually sports a flat cap but thought some "cans" would be more appropriate to the forum.

May the Force be with you!

[CableMaker1]

Love that Avatar !

+1 !!!

Those are not the headphones you seek young padwon...

[keiron99]

Wouldn’t it also have been an option to apply the Dynamat to the TOP surface of the platter, and place your choice of mat on top of that?

It would certainly be easier to do this. Also, you’d still have the benefit of the rubber on the underside.

[CableMaker1]

Placing Dynamat on the top surface of a platter should be avoided at all-costs. Only a mat should be placed on top of a platter. The surface of a mat is flat, and should bond to the surface of the platter for best contact results. Placing an LP or record on top of the mat should lay flat (assuming that the record is not warped) to get the best mat-to-record contact possible. Only then will you get the best results of your record-mat-platter combination.

Dynamat is sticky-tak on one side, and a soft, rubber surface on the top side, covered by aluminum foil. It would not provide the damping results you want by applying it on the top-side of the platter. Its best use is on the underside. Trying to flatten Dynamat to make an even surface that you would want would not be possible with this type of material.

Dynamat does have a great purpose which I have used it for - to dampen the rings in your speaker baskets. Give it a shot!!! It will be well worth your time, and does not cost that much money to make a modest improvement to your sonic investment.

[Andrei]

Dynamat does have a great purpose which I have used it for - to dampen the rings in your speaker baskets. Give it a shot!!! It will be well worth your time, and does not cost that much money to make a modest improvement to your sonic investment.

It makes perfect sense to me, and I would do it myself if only I could get into my speakers. The speaker baskets are the closest things (by definition) to the speaker cones and I think it would have to make an improvement. I have seen some pictures of this but I simply can't remember where - on a car audio website I think.

[sq225917]

Far easier to just remove the rubber and glue, mask the important bits and use spray adhesive to remount the rubber using a roller to ensure even adhesion.

dynamat and heat not good bed fellows, there's an Extreme mat for that purpose. Use it on drive unit chassis but not magnets, at least not if you run em 'ard.

[CableMaker1]

Dynamat is generally used in the automobile market as its prime objective is to insulate or dampen sound that can get into your car from the car door and trunk. However, with these damping properties, it became popular and reached into other markets - for one thing - is to dampen speaker baskets. I found it to be pretty useful. If you go this route - you will need only one or two sheets.

The leftovers you can use to dampen the Techie platter which I may perform sometime in the spring.

[Mr Kipling]

So, who has a platter that IS balanced?

The AR XAU's platter was balanced as was the AR 77's.

Nearly 40 years ago I used Bostik Sound Deadening Panels intended for use on cars on a Thorens 160 and AR XAU to good effect.

[Oldpinkman]

So, who has a platter that IS balanced?

The AR XAU's platter was balanced as was the AR 77's.

Nearly 40 years ago I used Bostik Sound Deadening Panels intended for use on cars on a Thorens 160 and AR XAU to good effect.

The Technics SP10 platter was dynamically balanced and had stickers to say so. It is much less of an issue on a belt or idler. If they use an AC motor it is phase locked and has no servo's to confuse with platter imbalance, and even dc motors are operating at much higher speeds, and can make more, smaller corrections to maintain constant speed. Different on a DD - potentially

[sq225917]

My Kuzma platter is balanced,

[dimkasta]

Sorry for the necroposting... I think it fits here...

Has anyone tried Dynapad along with Dynamat? It is supposed to help kill low frequency vibrations. It is quite thick though... Perhaps as a liner in the chassis instead of the platter? Or on top of the platter again replacing the heavy rubber mat?

About balancing, my opinion is that the rotation speed and the size and rigidity of the platter makes dynamic balancing rather not that important. Static balancing should be more than adequate and can easily be done by tilting the turntable ~30degrees allowing the heavier part of the platter to rotate to the bottom, allowing us to treat it either by adding more weight on the light side or drilling (or something) the heavier side to remove some mass.

[6L6]

I think any of the 'Dyna' materials have lots of merit compared to the stock rubber liner.

That said, I'm going to fill mine with a barely flexible marine epoxy if I ever get around to it.

[rubber duck]

Not sure if this has been raised elsewhere before but if we're on the subject of damping and dynamically balanced platters, should not the Technics rubber mat be compulsory in terms of damping and correct mass and hence speed stability?

[6L6]

...should not the Technics rubber mat be compulsory in terms of damping and correct mass and hence speed stability?

I don't see why -- the rubber mat is a big nod to the realities of mass-production. Because the platter was cast to make other portions of the process easier, the rubber was installed to stop it's bell-like ringing mode. It works quite well. And has the advantage of also being molded in a specific shape.

Adding a different damping material will do just that - damp. And quite possibly in a better way than the stock mat.

As for mass, there is no stability issue, the motor has more than enough grunt if you make things heavier, and also plenty of finesse of you make things lighter. Speed stability is a function of the motor sense coils and the drive logic, not the platter mass. That motor is what makes the Techie such a good candidate for modification.

[rubber duck]

I understand that the Techie motor can drive heavier (or lighter) loads but is this ideal? If it was designed with a specific platter mass in mind, then changing this surely would affect what the motor "sees" and how hard it works? Should the motor be made to work harder than is necessary even if it can?

[6L6]

Those who have added mass have not reported any problems. And the general consensus (well, of the handful of people who have done it...) on the epoxy-filled platter is overwhelmingly positive.

[WOStantonCS100]

The Technics SP10 platter was dynamically balanced and had stickers to say so. It is much less of an issue on a belt or idler. If they use an AC motor it is phase locked and has no servo's to confuse with platter imbalance, and even dc motors are operating at much higher speeds, and can make more, smaller corrections to maintain constant speed. Different on a DD - potentially

In addition, the Technics

SL-1300MK2 (1310MK2)
SL-1400MK2 (1410MK2)
SL-1500MK2 (1510MK2)
SL-150MK2
SL-M2
SL-M3
SL-M1A (I suspect but have not actually held in my hand)

all have balanced (drilled) platters, as well, that are heavier than a stock SL-1200MK2 platter.

[dimkasta]

Do you know if they have any holes drilled on both sides of the platter? Or just on the bottom?

[dimkasta]

By the way, I could not find any sheets of Dynamat locally... But I managed to get some scraps for free. Certainly not enough to cover the platter, but it was enough to cover the lower part of the bearing.. VERY nice improvement in stage spacial sounds. I think I will like this material :)

[Andrei]

Those who have added mass have not reported any problems. And the general consensus (well, of the handful of people who have done it...) on the epoxy-filled platter is overwhelmingly positive.
Which epoxy did you have in mind? I still have three spare platters (somebody on ebay was selling six!) and it would be interesting to experiment.

[6L6]

A specific epoxy was suggested to my be Sean Casey of Zu Audio. http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy/ It's marine grade, and doesn't dry completely solid like a generic 5-minute epoxy, but stays just a teeny bit flexible. Also a much longer working time, giving it a chance to flow level in the platter.

I'm looking forward to modifying the platter his way, it's in my queue of projects to do, and will get around to it one of these days. :)

[Andrei]

Hmm, thanks for that. What the web-site does not say is anything about vibration damping. Still, it is probably worth a go. I imagine if you can find find two right-sized corks you can stop up the finger holes while pouring.

[6L6]

I imagine if you can find find two right-sized corks you can stop up the finger holes while pouring.


...at which time you will have two corks firmly bonded into the holes. :doh:

FWIW, I haven't figured out a solution either, other than not having fingerholes once it's poured.

[Andrei]

...at which time you will have two corks firmly bonded into the holes. :doh:

FWIW, I haven't figured out a solution either, other than not having fingerholes once it's poured.

So I take it you have not had the experience of opening a bottle of wine without a corkscrew ;-> Necessity is the mother of invention!

[6L6]

Yes, I agree, it could be drilled out or something, but in a perfect world the stoppers are coated with some substance that epoxy doesn't bond to.

No corkscrew? Push the cork in. :)

[dimkasta]

How about making a tube out of teflon. Most glues do not bond with it

[samurasa]

How about using a dampening mass that is used in vehicles to dampen the vibration of the doors and other platings etc, for example http://vibratec.se/products/special-products/noisekiller/

I have really good experience of this kind of solution. http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/chp-xtreme-anti-noise-paste-1kg-single

12966

The needed thickness is of course much more than the recommended but you could always do it in thin (3mm) layers to get the required amount to fill the platter.

[dimkasta]

I tried modifying a test platter with dynamat. Properly removing the rubber is a REAL PITA. the main mass can be rather easily removed, but cleaning the residue is a different story...
At first I tried some steel sponge and it did not work very well... I then tried using 100 grit sand paper which made things quite better and faster. But still it was taking too much time and effort.
And then I remembered a tool I purchased a while back and never used. An oscillating multi-tool.

13031

Using the straight edge attachment to scrape the residue works very nicely

For those who do not how this thing works, it has a head that moves left-right, to which you can attach various tools like cutters, scrapers, sanders etc.
It is exactly what is needed for the job...

Mine is from Parkside and costs around 25 euros from Lidl (for those in Europe)

[Andrei]

Dimmy
I can confirm that removing the rubber was a right pain. Now that I look at that tool, it appears that it would not scratch the underside of the platter. Would that be correct?

[dimkasta]

Actually it can scratch it but not significantly... more or less the same amount of scratching as with the sand paper or steel sponge

[dimkasta]

Here is my test platter :)

13054

I reinstalled my Shelter 501 MK2 yesterday, so I am ready for some more a/b comparisons for the dynamat.

[Andrei]

That looks really interesting. I can see now that you have some dynamat inside the magnet assembly, but not on the magnet. I may give that a go too. I'm looking forward to your 'before and after'.
PS what is that colossus under the platter?

[dimkasta]

There is also dynamat under the magnet on the part of the platter around the hole.

The speaker is a Tannoy Turnburry :) Not really that a colossus...
The one at the back is Montana EPS... Now that is big :p

[337alant]

Excellent stuff that Dynamat Andre thanks for the tip ;)
I used it on my pioneer platter which had a distinct ring before but sounds dead as a dodo now :eyebrows:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5584/14820499536_5cccfee8bb_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ozCWb5)IMG_0010 (https://flic.kr/p/ozCWb5) by 337alant (https://www.flickr.com/people/69508926@N05/), on Flickr

Alan

[Marco]

Where does one obtain it in the UK?

Marco.

[337alant]

I bought mine from ebay Marco, you can get lesser amounts from this seller
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270731721292?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Alan

[Marco]

Cheers, Alan. But, bloody hell, I should hope you could get it in lesser quantities, as I wouldn’t be shelling out £140 to try it! All I wanted was a couple of wee strips….

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

I was looking at a review of an item earlier today and they had used this material to deaden the case so seems there are more uses than just under platters ;)


Regards Neil

[Ammonite Audio]

Excellent stuff that Dynamat Andre thanks for the tip ;)
I used it on my pioneer platter which had a distinct ring before but sounds dead as a dodo now :eyebrows:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5584/14820499536_5cccfee8bb_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ozCWb5)IMG_0010 (https://flic.kr/p/ozCWb5) by 337alant (https://www.flickr.com/people/69508926@N05/), on Flickr

Alan

Did the platter ring when a mat was placed on top? And does the turntable sound better for the damping?

[Stratmangler]

Where does one obtain it in the UK?

Marco.

Have you got a car parts shop nearby?
They're likely to have some.

[Andrei]

Excellent stuff that Dynamat Andre thanks for the tip ;)
I used it on my pioneer platter which had a distinct ring before but sounds dead as a dodo now :eyebrows:
Alan
Glad you liked it. Did your platter have any other damping underneath that you had to clear away?


Where does one obtain it in the UK?

Marco.
All sorts of sizes are available. The reason it comes in such large quantities is that it is used for cars. My chariot for example has all four doors and the boot lined with the stuff. Automotive retailers are likely to stock it. I have tried a couple of other brands, but they were not as effective. And if you do give it a go; the subspecies you ask for is Dynamat Extreme.



I was looking at a review of an item earlier today and they had used this material to deaden the case so seems there are more uses than just under platters ;)
Regards Neil
Platter, Internally on the 1210 chassis, Cars where some put it under the carpet on the firewall between the front seats and the engine, computer case panels, on the bracing of speaker drivers. They also make a product that goes on the opposite facing internal wall of a car door speaker (could be used in a hi-fi speaker too I suppose). Not effective on politicians, noisy spouses and cats on heat.

[Marco]

Have you got a car parts shop nearby?
They're likely to have some.

Cheers, I’ll ask next time I’m in my local one. I’ll only be interested though if I can pick it up in small strips.

Marco.

[337alant]

Marco PM me what you need, I will send you some


Glad you liked it. Did your platter have any other damping underneath that you had to clear away?

Andrei, no it was a bare platter

Alan

[Ammonite Audio]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but how can you be sure to maintain correct dynamic balance when sticking on such damping materials? I've no idea if the standard platter is balanced, but it would seem sensible to avoid out of balance forces that would require the motor circuitry to work hard applying corrections.

[Andrei]

Yes this is discussed earlier in the thread. Jim (6L6) and Samuli (samursa) have both suggested materials that could be poured into the cavity. Samuli's pic at #49 shows the use of a spirit level. As I see it there are two benefits of this. First these material would ensure near perfect balancing; and second I imagine they would be easier to implement. I am certainly going to try it, as I have three spare platters, but I have a number of other projects on the go. It will be interesting to see if they are as effective at damping as dynamat.

[6L6]

Yes this is discussed earlier in the thread. Jim (6L6) and Samuli (samursa) have both suggested materials that could be poured into the cavity.

The Epoxy recommended to me by more than one pweson who has done it is this - http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-system--g-flex-epoxy-adhesive-resin-and-hardener-only--15537087?adpos=1o1&creative=54520458004&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=Cj0KEQjwhLCgBRCf0fPH043IlJwBEiQAf8P8U8vMLSDn JjNJRPMX5JSWXB60SgRux4nxipLE9PCN2HwaAqIe8P8HAQ

Although you may need a bit more than that quantity...

[Ammonite Audio]

Yes this is discussed earlier in the thread. Jim (6L6) and Samuli (samursa) have both suggested materials that could be poured into the cavity. Samuli's pic at #49 shows the use of a spirit level. As I see it there are two benefits of this. First these material would ensure near perfect balancing; and second I imagine they would be easier to implement. I am certainly going to try it, as I have three spare platters, but I have a number of other projects on the go. It will be interesting to see if they are as effective at damping as dynamat.

I understand what has been done there, but static balancing is not the same as dynamic balancing. Would you balance a car wheel with a spirit level, and why do manufacturers usually take such trouble to carry out dynamic balancing of platters? The potential out of balance forces may be relatively small, but in vinyl replay the displacement and forces involved at the stylus are tiny.

[Marco]

Marco PM me what you need, I will send you some


Hi Alan, thanks for that. I’ll work out what I need (won’t be much - just a few strips) and let you know :)

Marco.

[dimkasta]

I understand what has been done there, but static balancing is not the same as dynamic balancing. Would you balance a car wheel with a spirit level, and why do manufacturers usually take such trouble to carry out dynamic balancing of platters? The potential out of balance forces may be relatively small, but in vinyl replay the displacement and forces involved at the stylus are tiny.

I don t know if TT companies claim to dynamically balance their platters, but my guess is that it is either marketing BS or just something to care for a public opinion creating problems.

Static balancing balances a rotating object on its X axis, taking into account weight differences around the nominal disc surface.
Dynamic balancing also balances it on its Y axis, caring to separate balance inconsistencies scattered on the Y axis and account for them individually on the X axis balance.

The smallish speed, the shallow height, the rigid and consistent material and the static Y axis makes dynamic balancing rather irrelevant on a TT platter.
Car tires is a different thing because we have a highly elastic material with inconsistent density and significantly bigger height, spinning on high speeds and alternating Y axis.

Anyway, to my knowledge, the SL1200 platter is not even statically balanced, so even statically balancing it should be enough and a big improvement as it is...

We can statically balance the platter by tilting the TT at around 40 degrees, and slowly spinning the platter. The heavier side should slide at the down side and the platter should swing a bit on that spot before stopping rotating. We need to add some weight on the opposite side. We repeat that until we have no swinging effect because of heavy areas drawn to the bottom by gravity.
Careful no to damage your spindle with the side forces.

[sq225917]

Your cartridge traces paths measured in microns, do you not think the best balancing possible should be a gold standard, especially given the effects on speed stability and bearing noise that imbalance in the platter could potentially cause?

[dimkasta]

Applying the entire gold standard for tire balancing to my platter? Not really. they have different properties and different degrees of freedom to move.

Considering the slowish speed and the single axis of movement, static balancing should minimize all those effects to the point where they are a matter of bearing tolerances.

Oh and not to mention the top rubber mat, which would make every attempt to balance the platter a joke, unless we glue it to make it a permanent component of the balancing act.

[RickeyM]

You can see here that there there are large places where the bonding agent has not connected with the rubber under-mat. Clearly the rubber mat does nothing for the structural integrity of the platter.

The original platter is not good. If you hold it by the magnet and tap it with a spoon you can hear it rings like a gong. Incidentally If you do the same test after you have stripped the rubber it resonates about twice as long. so I estimate that the rubber damping is about 50% effective ... pretty useless. The same tapping test after the Dynamat is in place produces no ringing. It is almost as dead as Monty Python's Parrot. In terms of sound difference it worked really well and I felt the base tightened up nicely.

I always wondered why the platter on my SL-1200 rung like a struck gong even with that nifty Technics rubber mat under there. For the $15 that I can get some for on eBay, it's definitely going on the underside of my platter. If you think damping sheets (Dynamat or Cascade) have many audio uses, do a Google search on "Magnepan Razor Mod". And yes, my Maggie MG-2.5R's have been treated as well :eyebrows:

[Mr Kipling]

An alternative way to kill a ringing platter is to attach lead stripping that can be used on glass windows to the inner edge of the outter platter. And a two-piece platter can be "glued" together with a thin layer of vaseline.

[Qwin]

My view has allways been that balancing is a waste of time on the Technics and similar platters for the reasons allready given relating to speed, matt and also the fact that the platter sits on a tapper and will never sit in the same position twice making the process redundant. Any accurately machined platter will be good enough for the speed it rotates at. The variation from true is not going to be enough to cause audible speed fluctuation and there are many factors which have a far more dramatic effect on sound which should be addressed before getting to that level, weakest link first etc. If you are looking at that level of detail you should not be using the stock platter and bearing anyway, bit like doing engine mapping and full rolling road tune on a Nissan Micra used for commuting to work. The acuracy of the hole positioning in the centre of the record will have a greater effect on the sound due to speed fluctuation on the eccentric groove diameter.

So there are many factors to consider and although in principle we should allways strive for the optimum, I wouldn't get too concerned about balancing. :)

[Oldpinkman]

Anyone reading this thread could be forgiven for thinking Technics employed kids from the street to design their products. The SP10 has a balanced platter and a certificate to say it is balanced. Platter balance will affect speed stability and impact on the servo mechanism in the electronics and motor control.

Lack of resonance and damping are not a panacea. I have heard an MDF platter, (AK's original idea for the LSD) and it was dire. Dead - in every sense of the word. Certainly ringing like a bell is not a good thing, but simply damping it is not a perfect solution. Balance, rigidity and structural integrity are important too.

As for a damped platter rendering the termination of a mat redundant - well. only maybe. Just because any energy from the stylus isn't exciting a ringing in the platter, doesn't mean it isn't being reflected back from the platter into the vinyl itself. A damped platter won't transmit energy away, nor absorb it all.

If a bit of gunge on the underneath of a platter is the ultimate last word in platter design, a couple of rubber bands wrapped round the outside of a tonearm should achieve the ultimate tonearm design. And to think people waste time with engineering solutions :doh:

[Andrei]

I always wondered why the platter on my SL-1200 rung like a struck gong even with that nifty Technics rubber mat under there. For the $15 that I can get some for on eBay, it's definitely going on the underside of my platter. If you think damping sheets (Dynamat or Cascade) have many audio uses, do a Google search on "Magnepan Razor Mod". And yes, my Maggie MG-2.5R's have been treated as well :eyebrows:
Interesting results on an image search - you would think Mag would incorporate it into their design, it probably would not be expensive to them.
Have you used Cascade before? I have tried an alternative to Dynamat but it was not as effective, but it wasn't Cascade as I would have remembered that name (it is a bridge partner's online handle).

[RickeyM]

Interesting results on an image search - you would think Mag would incorporate it into their design, it probably would not be expensive to them.

I guess Magnepan isn't treating their speakers for the same reason other speaker makers aren't treating the baskets of their drivers. Probably too labor intensive as I don't see any way it could be automated. I used some DYNAMAT EXTREEM on the cross bars of the woofer/mid drivers along with strips of it around the perimeter of the driver frame. It did sound better but not as dramatic as when I put the drivers from my MMG's into hardwood frames. I'll have some time Sunday to finally apply the DYNAMAT to the bottom of my Techie's platter and I'll post back on the results. I agree with you Andrei, damping the underside of the platter may make whatever mat you use on top of the platter less critical. Or maybe even more effective. We'll see.

[Mr Kipling]

If a bit of gunge on the underneath of a platter is the ultimate last word in platter design…

I haven't read anyone saying it is. What it is is a cheap, simple and effective way of killing a ringing platter. It works - well it did with a Thorens 160 B MK II and original AR turntable, when I tried damping both platter and sub-chassis on them. Indeed, at one point Thorens' importers Cambrasound, made available a tune-up kit for the 160 which included damping panels after it was seen there was a market for it. And what about Max T. using carpet to damp his Glastonbury speakers?

What would your solution be?

[RickeyM]

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Stripping4_zps1962a22c.jpg
After you have removed the rubber you will see that there are bits of residue rubber and glue left on the underside of the platter. Keep chipping away at it with the paring knife. Your patience will be rewarded. What that is mostly done you must then clean it. I used Acetone, Synthetic Steel Wool and rubber gloves. You can use whatever cleaning method; only be sure you take off 100% of the rubber.

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Stripping5_zps8d8dba5c.jpg
This is what it should look like after you have striped and cleaned it completely.

Man, that leftover rubber & glue is a bear to get off. Mainly because I didn't break out the acetone at first :doh: Right now my platter is looking more like the second pic than the first. I'm really itching to get this completed so I can hear the results ;)

[CageyH]

I hope you find the results worthwhile after all that effort.

[Andrei]

Man, that leftover rubber & glue is a bear to get off. Mainly because I didn't break out the acetone at first :doh: Right now my platter is looking more like the second pic than the first. I'm really itching to get this completed so I can hear the results ;)
What's your other equipment Nathan?


I hope you find the results worthwhile after all that effort.
So do I! It sure is a right pain doing that work! But if you do most of the important mods; power supply, tonearm, bearing, platter - and some of the minor mods; service the internal connectors, headshell, record clamp - you really will get a top turntable.

[RickeyM]

What's your other equipment Nathan?


So do I! It sure is a right pain doing that work! But if you do most of the important mods; power supply, tonearm, bearing, platter - and some of the minor mods; service the internal connectors, headshell, record clamp - you really will get a top turntable.

The other parts of my kit are as follows: Sony STR-DA5ES with the pre-out feeding a Yamaha MX-830. My sources are a Sony DVP-NC555ES and my SL-1200MK2 using a Audio Technica at120e. My speakers a Infinity RS5 "Mutts" and Maggie MG-2.5R's.
The SL-1200 so far has the tonearm re-wired & cotton stuffed, DIY external PS (stock parts used), RCA cables upgraded, a couple of the caps on the PCB upgraded, an O-ring under the spindle bearing housing with some blue LED's and a repaint thrown in for good measure. Currently experimenting with different mats (stock/cork-rubber/acrylic). Even with just these few mods the SQ has improved and I like it!

[RickeyM]

Followed Andrei's instructions and got the Dynamat on. The platter is MUCH better damped than stock. Knocking on the deck surface with the stylus on a static LP, m.uch less sound getting through to the speakers. A very good improvement for $15

[CableMaker1]

OK, although this has been a dormant thread for years, I am attempting to revive it. Hello everyone from Westchester New York.
Or more like Niagra Falls New York as I am on a bit of a mini vacation, heading home tomorrow, back to reality.

In case anyone has the burning question if I can see Canada from thewindow from where I am, the answer is a resounding YES!!!! Yes I can! Oh yes, and the falls too!!!
Despite all these years, I have yet to take the plunge on this upgrade, but I plan to do it as I am equipped with Dynamat extreme.
I have a suggestion for anyone attempting to perform this mod. To make things easier, how about using a heatgun to perform this mod.
Apply heat on the metal side of the platter for a minute or two. Then apply heat on the underside of the platter (the rubber side).
Do not keep the heat gun in the same place. Make sure to keep the heat gun moving around the platter and rubber, or you will burn the surface.
With the platter and rubber heated up, it should be relatively easy to remove the rubber. You may want to use a spatula to help assist in the separation of removing the rubber from the platter. It may actually come out cleaner than trying to remove the rubber using non-heated brute force methods.

I am recruiting/volunteering Marco to try this method to let us know how well it goes. C'mon Marco... I have faith in you to rise up to this challenge!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Hope this helps.

[walpurgis]

For health reasons, Marco is not currently participating here. We hope he will be along in due course once he recovers and we wish him the best.

[I.D.S.]

As someone who has carried out this mod using a heat gun made no appreciable difference,the type of adhesive use seems to be reluctant possibly for obvious reasons. Just good old hard graft gets it off. Helps if you have an old bearing to spin the platter on to keep an eye on the balance. I finished mine topside with a fitted copper top,handy to have the longer 'Mike New' bearing so you still have enough spindle projection:thumbsup:

[Wakefield Turntables]

I think most of us have moved on from the 1210. I've still got mine but people hardly post about them now.

[CageyH]

I have not moved on. I just have nothing left to do on it. ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I have not moved on. I just have nothing left to do on it. ;)

Yep l now that feeling, that's why I started messing around with Idlers :doh:.

[CableMaker1]

For health reasons, Marco is not currently participating here. We hope he will be along in due course once he recovers and we wish him the best.

I did not know that. Hope Marco recovers real soon.

[CableMaker1]

I think most of us have moved on from the 1210. I've still got mine but people hardly post about them now.

Nope. I have not moved on. I've had my 2 1200's since 1986. The best looking TT's ever made were the Technics DD TT's.

I'd put the Denons Yamahas and the JVC's right up there as well.

[CableMaker1]

As someone who has carried out this mod using a heat gun made no appreciable difference,the type of adhesive use seems to be reluctant possibly for obvious reasons. Just good old hard graft gets it off. Helps if you have an old bearing to spin the platter on to keep an eye on the balance. I finished mine topside with a fitted copper top,handy to have the longer 'Mike New' bearing so you still have enough spindle projection:thumbsup:

Thanks for letting me know. Now I know I have my work cut out for me.

[diviy]

I have not moved on. I just have nothing left to do on it.

Snap

[CableMaker1]

OK I removed the rubber mat from the underside using nothing but a heat gun and a knife. It took me about a couple of hours to do this.
I started with the heat at 450 degrees F moving up as high as 1000 degrees f on the rubber. The rubber is removed. Next step is to remove the glue from the platter, then make a template of the platter underside for fitting.
Once the fitting of the template, I will make the dynamat out of the template. I am looking at next weekend to do this.

Man the platter really rings like a bell with the rubber off. It would have been great if technics paid more attention to the platter and the rubber underside.