View Full Version : Recommend me a SUT for the Denon 103.
Wakefield Turntables
14-12-2013, 16:30
So far I have had a look at the Auditorium 23. Any suggestions would be welcome.
Arkless Electronics
14-12-2013, 16:42
So far I have had a look at the Auditorium 23. Any suggestions would be welcome.
I make a head amplifier which may be to your liking... You can try it out if you want. It's rather good.... I hope Marco won't mind me saying this but in a private communication just the other day he told me it had convinced him that a really good head amp could indeed beat the best SUT's ;)
Wakefield Turntables
14-12-2013, 18:46
Jez,
Must admit I have never had a head amp in my setup so I suppose anything new would be worth a try. I'm just a little concerned that we are close to Xmas and postage is always dodgy at this time of year. Can you send me some details about the spec via PM? :eyebrows:
Andy
Yep. Andy, having owned an A23, I can say that as good as it was, Jez's head amp eats it alive! You really must hear it, mate...
Marco.
P.S Moving this thread into Analogue Art.
Arkless Electronics
14-12-2013, 20:14
Jez,
Must admit I have never had a head amp in my setup so I suppose anything new would be worth a try. I'm just a little concerned that we are close to Xmas and postage is always dodgy at this time of year. Can you send me some details about the spec via PM? :eyebrows:
Andy
This should tell you all you need to know but if not then just ask :) http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29135-Arkless-Electronics-MC-Head-Amp
Ali Tait is next in the queue to try it after Marco BTW....
PaulStewart
14-12-2013, 20:21
Hi Andy,
I've not heard Jez's head amp yet, but since I started using the grant amplifier valve head amp all thoughts of SUTs on my main system have gone out of the window. However, valve head amps are as scarce as hen's teeth so please let us know what this is loke when you've heard it.
Cheers
Just to keep things fair and square, as I cannot show any favouritism, Jez's head amp will be going head-to-head with a another MC head amp from Paul Hynes, at a bake-off at Martin T's place tomorrow. Also in the equation will be my Ortofon ST-80SE and Martin's Choir Audio Hashimoto SUTs.
So... Bespoke head amp vs. SUT WAR!!! :eyebrows:
Look out for the results of that one, folks! ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
14-12-2013, 20:43
Assuming you have an MM phono stage. If you'd be interested, I have a rather rare and very fine sounding vintage Japanese SUT that I might part with given a fair bit of arm twisting. It's a Fidelty Research FRT-3 and it has 30 ohm and 10 ohm settings, plus a bypass, it sounds superb with the DL-103. Plenty of info about it on the net.
Here's a review of sorts of the FRT-3 tried with a DL-103:
http://cheaptubeaudio.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/talk-vinyl-thomas-schick-tonearm-part.html
Arkless Electronics
14-12-2013, 21:10
As it may have quite some bearing on whether or not people want to try the demo unit I should add that the demo head amp is a pretty much "full works" version and considerably more than the £400 figure mentioned in the link earlier on.
How much is the approx. cost for the demo spec unit Jez
Also I would love to go on the list to try
cheers Paul
So far I have had a look at the Auditorium 23. Any suggestions would be welcome.
If you want to use transformers try Sowter personally I find them very difficult to fault,
Paul
Arkless Electronics
14-12-2013, 21:41
How much is the approx. cost for the demo spec unit Jez
Also I would love to go on the list to try
cheers Paul
It's around £800. Exact price will vary according to the spec a customer wants and any special requirements regarding casework/styling and erm.. "boutique" components/cables/sockets etc
I have a friend who can make bespoke casework incorporating very exotic hardwoods and can even make up laminates to give interesting patterns etc and this can be an option also.
It's like the old buses cliché here.... No ones asked to hear the demo unit until today and then 3 (so far!) in one day :)
Humans eh ,that's why we have cliché's ,
I was watching the I might make one thread then must of missed its metamorphosis into a reality part
sounds very interesting
Paul
I use a Marshall Leech designed DIY head amp and it is very good.
Wakefield Turntables
14-12-2013, 22:47
Hi Andy,
I've not heard Jez's head amp yet, but since I started using the grant amplifier valve head amp all thoughts of SUTs on my main system have gone out of the window. However, valve head amps are as scarce as hen's teeth so please let us know what this is loke when you've heard it.
Cheers
Sure no worries but I have no idea its going to take to arrive and I havent even swapped address details with Jez yet.
Just to keep things fair and square, as I cannot show any favouritism, Jez's head amp will be going head-to-head with a another MC head amp from Paul Hynes, at a bake-off at Martin T's place tomorrow. Also in the equation will be my Ortofon ST-80SE and Martin's Choir Audio Hashimoto SUTs.
So... Bespoke head amp vs. SUT WAR!!! :eyebrows:
Look out for the results of that one, folks! ;)
Marco.
Can't fookin wait for this one, you really really need to get this one written up as soon as you get back home.
Assuming you have an MM phono stage. If you'd be interested, I have a rather rare and very fine sounding vintage Japanese SUT that I might part with given a fair bit of arm twisting. It's a Fidelty Research FRT-3 and it has 30 ohm and 10 ohm settings, plus a bypass, it sounds superb with the DL-103. Plenty of info about it on the net.
Here's a review of sorts of the FRT-3 tried with a DL-103:
http://cheaptubeaudio.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/talk-vinyl-thomas-schick-tonearm-part.html
Blimey! OK Geoff, but can I have a listen to Jez's head amp first please??
So far I have had a look at the Auditorium 23. Any suggestions would be welcome.
you wouldn't need a SUT if you had a decent phono stage! simples!
Wakefield Turntables
14-12-2013, 23:18
Hmmmmm, so what make YOU an expert, why don't you just stick to flogging bits of cable. You dont really have anything useful to say and dont try and hijack the thread to flog some of your products, the entire forum is sick and tired of these antics.
walpurgis
15-12-2013, 00:24
Blimey! OK Geoff, but can I have a listen to Jez's head amp first please??
I've not heard Jez's product, but I have a feeling it's pretty decent. However, I'd back my FRT-3 against the Sowters and the Auditorium when used with the DL-103!
You show your location as "Earth", which doesn't give me much of a clue. If you were nearby I'd lend you the SUT to evaluate. You'd not be disappointed.
anubisgrau
15-12-2013, 22:38
bump! waiting....
Just to keep things fair and square, as I cannot show any favouritism, Jez's head amp will be going head-to-head with a another MC head amp from Paul Hynes, at a bake-off at Martin T's place tomorrow. Also in the equation will be my Ortofon ST-80SE and Martin's Choir Audio Hashimoto SUTs.
So... Bespoke head amp vs. SUT WAR!!! :eyebrows:
Look out for the results of that one, folks! ;)
Marco.
Only back half an hour or so, after a 400-mile round trip, so knackered! You'll have to wait until tomorrow for my thoughts, dude. However, as ever with a sesh at Martin's - what we heard was VERY interesting! :exactly:
Off to bed now, folks, so until tomorrow..............
Marco.
anubisgrau
15-12-2013, 23:30
ho ho suspense....
Lol - once I've had my breakfast, woken up, and attended to quite a few important things I've got to do, I'll start a new thread outlining what I heard yesterday, in relation to platters, mats, SUTs/head amps - and also a few thoughts about CDPs and DACs...
In the meantime, however, if Martin or Mike want to kick things off, and post their thoughts, then they are very welcome to do so :)
Marco.
I'll get to it later, Marco, as work is busy right now. Whoever kicks off first, go for it!
P.S. you did well to get back at that time. I was as dead as a dead thing, don't even remember the bit between addressing the bed and being asleep, just the effin' alarm clock going off this morning :eek:
I'll get to it later, Marco, as work is busy right now. Whoever kicks off first, go for it!
P.S. you did well to get back at that time. I was as dead as a dead thing, don't even remember the bit between addressing the bed and being asleep, just the effin' alarm clock going off this morning :eek:
Yup - you looked knackered at the end of the night, mate, which wasn't surprising, given that you were up until 2.30am on Sunday morning!
Got back just after 10pm (10.03pm, to be precise, lol!) Therefore, it took roughly 3 hours. The roads were quiet, but the driving conditions utterly atrocious, with wind and heavy rain for much of the journey back home. Initially I took it fairly easy, that was until the rain stopped just after Birmingham, where I 'booted it', in order to make up for lost time! :eyebrows:
It was very nice meeting you and Mike again, and of course Ruth. Thanks again for your excellent hospitality, mate, as usual, and for doing the bending up and down, swapping out and setting up all the kit, as my back just wouldn't have been up to it.
Some scribbles, relating to the event, will be written up later! :cool:
Marco.
anubisgrau
16-12-2013, 12:22
you could have written something more concrete instead of chattin:eyebrows:g....
Whilst we all await Marco's report with eager anticipation, I can reply to the OP. When I used the Denon DL103, albeit not under ideal conditions, I used either a Quad 44 with type 4C m/c card fitted as a phono stage, or a Nakamichi MC100 SUT.
However, in the end I settled on using a pair of German Haufe T-7883 transformers. These are ideal for use with the DL103: they have a 10:1 step up ratio (20dB) and are designed for a 40 Ohm source impedance (= coil resistance of the DL103) and 47KOhm load impedance. When used "as is", they will present a 470 Ohm load to the cartridge. This is a bit too high, so you can either fit a 27Kohm resistor across the secondary to bring the load impedance down to 196 Ohm, or a 12KOhm resistor to bring the load impedance down to 120 Ohm (both these figures include the resistance of the transformer windings).
Wakefield Turntables
16-12-2013, 16:11
Barry,
Many thanks, thats another one to put into the mix!
Andy ;)
anubisgrau
16-12-2013, 16:24
i had those and used them unloaded so wasn't truly convinced. someone wanted to buy them off from me so i let them go.
far better sounding in my room are vintage siemens T41/15c.
if looking for new i would be tempted to try a cheap as chips amplimo tm-3, about 40e a piece.
pure sound
16-12-2013, 16:28
The T10 sut I do has a ratio of 1:18 and shows the catridge 144 Ohms when loaded by 47Kohm. This will produce about 5mV to the phono stage mm input. I've a fair few customers who use it with the 103.
Arkless Electronics
16-12-2013, 21:18
Was the spirit of Alfred Hitchcock involved in this bake off? He would have approved of the suspense :D Spill the beanz chaps :)
The Grand Wazoo
16-12-2013, 21:34
You ain't seen nuthin' yet Jez!
We're still waiting for Marco's write up of the..........what was it now?
I can't remember it was too many years ago!
anubisgrau
16-12-2013, 21:57
he probably wrote but we silly ones can't find it :)
Arkless Electronics
16-12-2013, 22:14
Good thing their were others present at that there bake off then :eek:
anubisgrau
16-12-2013, 22:32
they could be all abducted, probably after some horrible truths revealed! a state of the art jap SUT massacred by a humble head amp!
The Grand Wazoo
16-12-2013, 22:50
I think they may actually have been baking cakes.
PaulStewart
16-12-2013, 23:24
I think they may actually have been baking cakes.
Marco has just posted in Abstract Chat.... About Coffee and Walnut cake, this is frustrating :(
Patience, guys. I'm writing it up now...
It's here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29690-Platters-and-Phonos-at-MartinT-s&p=510094#post510094
ninedecks
17-12-2013, 22:40
i had those and used them unloaded so wasn't truly convinced. someone wanted to buy them off from me so i let them go.
far better sounding in my room are vintage siemens T41/15c.
if looking for new i would be tempted to try a cheap as chips amplimo tm-3, about 40e a piece.
I use the same Siemens, it makes a good combination with the DL103.
Dave
i had those and used them unloaded so wasn't truly convinced. someone wanted to buy them off from me so i let them go.
far better sounding in my room are vintage siemens T41/15c.
if looking for new i would be tempted to try a cheap as chips amplimo tm-3, about 40e a piece.
I'm not surprised, ~ 495Ohms input load impedance for the DL103 cartridge is too high: the treble will tend to 'splash about'.
As an alternative to the Siemens T41/15C, which is better suited to EMT cartridges (having a coil resistance of 24 Ohm), there is the much cheaper (and possibly better) Beyer TR/BV 351 015 006 transformer.
This has a flatter upper treble response (when the secondary is loaded by 47KOhm) than the Siemens device.
anubisgrau
19-12-2013, 14:13
I'm not surprised, ~ 495Ohms input load impedance for the DL103 cartridge is too high: the treble will tend to 'splash about'.
you think that A23 SUT with these txs has a R compensation?
you think that A23 SUT with these txs has a R compensation?
I'm not sure. I have see the TXs in the A23 SUT and they do look very similar to the Haufe designs. As to model number, unfortunately they were unmarked. I was told by the owner that the input impedance had been measured to be ~100 Ohm, so assume some resistor compensation, either on the primary or the secondary winding had been made. Since there was no sign of any resistors shunting either the input or output sockets, I can only assume the restors had been fitted within the transformer housing - they were taller than expected and so could have been large enough for the resistors.
anubisgrau
21-12-2013, 13:28
i've recently been in contact with haufe. they have T-890 for sale, not T-7883.
here's data.
http://www.haufe-uebertrager.de/Daten/Datenblaetter/Datenblatt%20T890%20010519.pdf
they are also recommended for 103, 60e each.
i've recently been in contact with haufe. they have T-890 for sale, not T-7883.
here's data.
http://www.haufe-uebertrager.de/Daten/Datenblaetter/Datenblatt%20T890%20010519.pdf
they are also recommended for 103, 60e each.
That's interesting - I have an old data sheet (April 1973) for the Haufe T-890 and it differs slightly from the latest data sheet (20.09.12). The differences are however very small, and it does indeed look like a suitable transformer for use with the Denon DL 103 cartridge.
In fact it could well be a better TX to use than the T-7883: both have the same winding ratio of 10:1, however the T-890 has a wider response and I suspect it has less turns on both the windings (the DC resistance and inductance are both lower than that of the T-7883).
€60 sounds a reasonable price per transformer.
I would suggest you use them, but I still recommend you fit resistors across the secondary windings; in my experience MC cartridges like to be loaded with 100 - 200 Ohms.
Let us know how you get on.
I have A23 for Denon.
Just opened to take some pictures.
They are probably made from Haufe.
Dc resistance is 8 ohm on primary and 510 ohm on secondary.
With 100mV on primary I get 2V on secondary, so 1:20 is turn ratio. So it is not Haufe T-890 inside.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kn56lktt19kterf/2013-12-21%2017.51.23.jpg
I have A23 for Denon.
Just opened to take some pictures.
They are probably made from Haufe.
Dc resistance is 8 ohm on primary and 510 ohm on secondary.
With 100mV on primary I get 2V on secondary, so 1:20 is turn ratio. So it is not Haufe T-890 inside.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kn56lktt19kterf/2013-12-21%2017.51.23.jpg
Nor are they T-7883s. As I mentioned in my post above (no. 42), the individual transformers in the A23 unit look like Haufe designs but are unmarked. The input impedance, when the secondary is loaded by the nominal 47kOhm of the disc input of the preamp, has been measured to be about 100 Ohm. Since there is no sign of loading resistors fitted externally to the transformers, one must assume they are fitted internally.
anubisgrau
22-12-2013, 09:28
if A23 primary DCR is 8ohm, wouldn't that collide with 12ohm DCR of 103?
I think the most important thing is correct loading not DCR.
Usually with a step up, any loading value from about 8 to 12 times the coil’s DCR will be acceptable.
trio leo
22-12-2013, 11:18
Hi Rexton,
Just to through another unit into the pot, I use an Albarry MCA11 battery powered head amp, IMHO it just disappears, it just does the job without adding or taking anything away, letting the cartridge do its job.
At £500 I also think it's excellent VFM.
just my 2 penneth
enjoy your music
regards Al
Wakefield Turntables
22-12-2013, 12:14
Well I've kept quite over the last few days on this topic. It may well be that I don't need a SUT if I insert the new phonostage that I'm trying out it has plenty of
gain and in 95% of situations is matching my current phonostage+SUT setup, additionally the new year will fetch a new experiment with a head amp.
walpurgis
22-12-2013, 12:32
I have a funny feeling that even if you have enough gain, the sound would still improve if you used a good SUT. I've experienced this myself.
I would have agreed wholeheartedly, Geoff, only I've heard a couple of FET input amps recently that have got me wondering. I think top SUTs and top head amps are quite evenly matched, with different strengths.
Again I repeat that a SUT is not always necessary if a well designed phono stage is employed.
But it is true that the isolation that a SUT can bring has its own advantages. I keep thinking about getting some nice 1:1 transformers wound using the same construction as a SUT some time to try in front of the jfet phono stage just to see.
Wasn't it Jimmy Hughes who liked 1:1 transformers between every stage of his system?
walpurgis
24-12-2013, 17:57
Wasn't it Jimmy Hughes who liked 1:1 transformers between every stage of his system?
That sounds rather 'Beltist'! :)
Wakefield Turntables
24-12-2013, 18:57
I cant add a SUT with the Paradise phonostage anyway because it's own designed to work with MC carts, it has no MM cart support.
But it is true that the isolation that a SUT can bring has its own advantages. I keep thinking about getting some nice 1:1 transformers wound using the same construction as a SUT some time to try in front of the jfet phono stage just to see.
That would be very interesting, Nick. Incidentally, I have no intentions yet of selling my ST80SE, as quite simply it matches extremely well with my SPU (hardly surprising), and offers a slightly different, but equally engaging musical presentation, compared with Paul's head amp.
Therefore, in all likelihood, I'll use both and enjoy them for different reasons :)
When I get a chance, I'll write up my thoughts properly on what, IMO, transformers and active head amps do, musically. None of them are perfect, of course, as is ever the case sadly in audio.
However, I've listened to many active MC stages and head amps over the years, and the best I've heard have undoubtedly been those designed by Jez and Paul Hynes, which is precisely why my interest in the latter has recently been reignited, although I'm sure you could also make one equally as good!
Marco.
although I'm sure you could also make one equally as good!
Oh, Nick does. More on that when I get back home. Results so far are very, very good and I shall write them up sometime next week.
Lol - nice one, mate. I look forward to that! I suspect that the Whest is on borrowed time... ;)
Marco.
Far too early to say. The Whest is an extremely good MM phono stage and the Hashimotos the best SUTs I've ever heard. They won't be displaced until I am convinced. Right now, each has strengths.
Wakefield Turntables
25-12-2013, 18:57
Lol - nice one, mate. I look forward to that! I suspect that the Whest is on borrowed time... ;)
Marco.
The one I tried latest less than a week in my system. I just could not get on with it. The Paradise took less than 1/2 a day to convince me that is was streets ahead of the Whest.
The one I tried latest less than a week in my system. I just could not get on with it. The Paradise took less than 1/2 a day to convince me that is was streets ahead of the Whest.
You're not comparing like with like, I suspect. The Paradise is MC only and the Whest's MC input is not particularly good.
Wakefield Turntables
25-12-2013, 20:44
Correct and what's worse is that I tried the SE version. :lol: This begs the question if the Whest's MC input is not that good then why does it cost so much? And, why do you say that it's MC isn't that good?
I have listened to the MC input and it sounds flat and lifeless. Set to MM with my SUT, it sounds dynamic, energetic and frankly superb. I surmise, therefore, that the Whest works very well at low gain but not so well at high gain. Something about the circuit configuration or loading doesn't like low output MC carts much (I have tried both my Shelter and AT carts). However, there is little wrong with the main gain stages or RIAA equalisation.
One thing that surprised me is that the PS.30RDT didn't appear to sound any better than mine.
Wakefield Turntables
25-12-2013, 22:02
Hmmmmm. Thats interesting. Why don't we all just find the best reference grade MM phonostage with no MC circuitary we can find and slap a synergistically sympathetic SUT in their as well. We are all paying stupid money for MC phonostages and not using them.
Wakefield Turntables
25-12-2013, 22:02
Martin,
Did you buy the Whest phonostage before your SUT?
walpurgis
25-12-2013, 22:54
Why don't we all just find the best reference grade MM phonostage with no MC circuitary we can find and slap a synergistically sympathetic SUT in their as well.
I've been doing that for years. Seems to work best for me!
Why don't we all just find the best reference grade MM phonostage with no MC circuitary we can find and slap a synergistically sympathetic SUT in their as well.
It's a learning curve. Right now, I'm evaluating MC phono stages to determine whether a one-box solution can work for me.
Did you buy the Whest phonostage before your SUT?
No, I was using a Bob's Devices CineMag SUT at the time. It was a great match and that SUT is a bargain for its performance level.
It's a learning curve. Right now, I'm evaluating MC phono stages to determine whether a one-box solution can work for me.
My advice, Martin, would be not to make any decisions in that respect until you've also heard something from Paul Hynes, particularly the head amp/SR5 combo I brought down to your place, which you were rather impressed with.
Trust me, you'll be even more impressed if you got to hear it at your leisure, over a period of time, and when seated in the sweet spot between your speakers! ;)
I cannot comment on how good the Longdog unit you're listening to just now is (although, given Nick's pedigree as an EE, I know it'll be excellent), but Paul's head amp/SR5 is doing some remarkable things in my system, sonically and musically, which are just simply breathtaking.....
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
26-12-2013, 11:02
It's a learning curve. Right now, I'm evaluating MC phono stages to determine whether a one-box solution can work for me.
No, I was using a Bob's Devices CineMag SUT at the time. It was a great match and that SUT is a bargain for its performance level.
It surprises me that you bought the Whest in the first place if you think the MC input is a bit lifeless. I wouldn't buy any phonostage if its MC stage is "lifeless" and I certainly wouldn't buy a Phonostage simply for its MM stage so that I could use a SUT. I've always liked MC compared to MM carts so for me the MC stage is key. But if the Whest had the best MM you've ever heard and you intended to use a SUT then I can see your reasoning.
My advice, Martin, would be not to make any decisions in that respect until you've also heard something from Paul Hynes, particularly the head amp/SR5 combo I brought down to your place, which you were rather impressed with.
Trust me, you'll be even more impressed if you get to hear it at your leisure, over a period of time, and when seated in the sweet spot between your speakers! ;)
I cannot comment on how good the Longdog unit you're listening to just now is (although, given Nick's pedigree as an EE, I know it'll be excellent), but Paul's head amp/SR5 is doing some remarkable things in my system, sonically and musically, which are just simply breathtaking.....
Marco.
This should be fun, I should also be trying one of these out at some stage but with a bit of a twist. :eyebrows: I'm not going to comment any further but lets say it's going to make for an interesting experiment next year.
But if the Whest had the best MM you've ever heard and you intended to use a SUT then I can see your reasoning.
That was exactly it. I never used the MC settings.
What you've both highlighted is one of the advantages of having a valve preamp/phono stage, as it'll usually only come with an MM input, thereby neatly facilitating the use of a top-notch SUT/head amp, without paying for a redundant (often inferior sounding) MC stage... ;)
Marco.
ninedecks
27-12-2013, 11:59
Hi Rexton.
I bought a few items to try out (yet to do so) with a Denon DL103.
An Ortofon MCA-76 head amp, a phono preamp from Angle Audio specifically modified for the 103, Siemens T41/15c SUT and all to run through my Arkless modified 640P.
If you lived locally (planet Earth is a big place:scratch:) I would invite you over.
Dave
Yeah, Andy, you need to put your proper location (area where you live in the UK) on your profile. Ta muchly! :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
28-12-2013, 21:36
Done.
ninedecks
29-12-2013, 10:35
A bit far, but if you are ever in the neighbourhood, you will be welcome.
We make a nice cuppa down here - not Yorkshire tea though:)
Wakefield Turntables
29-12-2013, 10:46
OK, I shall fetch my Earl Grey and special china cup. :lol: Seriously thanks for the offer.
anubisgrau
29-12-2013, 22:04
Hi Rexton.
I bought a few items to try out (yet to do so) with a Denon DL103.
An Ortofon MCA-76 head amp, a phono preamp from Angle Audio specifically modified for the 103, Siemens T41/15c SUT and all to run through my Arkless modified 640P.
If you lived locally (planet Earth is a big place:scratch:) I would invite you over.
Dave
it shouldn't stop you from sharing your thoughts here.
as cinemag prices have gone up, i would just love to mention again that the sowther transformers are easily overlooked as they aren't as exotic as some.
however 9990x has seen backs of many hyped SUTs in my room, including cinemag 3440 for both 103 and BM ace SL.
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