Sony es amps

[RobbieGong]

Does anyone here have experience or knowledge of these amps. Our own Jules reminded me of the ES’s which has got me curious again. The big TA F808es caught my eye but I read a comment online where someone found the mids a bit on the dark side which was a concern and would not suit me at all either. Other reviews are very favourable for that amp. The TA F870es is similar, maybe earlier but there is next to nothing about it online. Any experience / recommendations of the ES ? I’m interested in the big ones.

[DSJR]

I believe that some of the expensive early ones were and remain very good indeed if they're carefully checked over. The V-FET ones may need reliability checks now (blown output transistors are exceedingly expensive, but if the surrounding components are checked and replaced as necessary, these amps are very good in a valvey way). They just didn't look home made and have Naim or Exposure on their front panels - cough!!!!!

[hoopsontoast]

The V-Fet ones are very different IME to the standard 'mosfet' variants.

The V-Fet I have heard (TA-5650 IIRC) is very different to the big ES monsters. They dont tend to like speaker loads below 6 Ohms and generally not that powerful, they do have some issues with the output transistors, although not if they have been looked after.

Dare I say that the V-Fet models have a faster/leaner sound compared to the 770ES, with better mid-range. The Big ES models have ooodles of power though and very good phono stages, although not heard the phono stage on the V-Fet, IIRC it has two separate inputs for different cartridges.

I have owned 2x 670ES and 3x 770ES.

The main reliability issue I have heard of and had is the speaker output relay, on both a 670ES and 770ES I had it, it just meant that you needed to flick the speaker on/off switch a few times to engage it.
My current 770ES, FWIW is fine.

Beware of the 770ES, it gives off a fair amount of heat and is very big, especially depth so make sure your rack will accommodate it.

[DSJR]

I do know the 5650 very well indeed and had a new one at home for some months (I should have bought it). The bass was its weakest point due to lack of control, but in flat-earth terms of tunefulness and involvement, this amp was sublime. The reliability issues are the fatigue of solder joints around some critical diodes apparently, which causes the output stage to spectacularly fail should these joints fail. I believe a critically matched pair of V-FET's (or is it triple, I can't remember) is then necessary and even at the time, they used to cost a fortune. Still a marvelous amp if you can get a well cared for and well maintained example - nice MM stage too as I remember.

I only know the later ES integrated amps by reputation I'm afraid. There was one in the £150 region in the early 90's which offered loads of power for the money and sounded pretty reasonable by all accounts..

[istari_knight]

Got a 770ES "cooking" here :eyebrows:

I would like a 777ES but funds don't permit !

[RobbieGong]

Got a 770ES "cooking" here :eyebrows:

I would like a 777ES but funds don't permit !

Read good things about the 770ES - How would you describe it's sound James ?
BTW - I know what you mean re: funds. To be honest I should just try and improve what I already have maybe :eyebrows:

[istari_knight]

Umm I'm no good at describing how things sound... It sounds very smooth & very powerful at the same time, very detailed & dynamic but not in your face at all... You don't realise how good it is until you remove it from your system & then you think "where did all the good stuff go?!"

Your Technics although top of its range is full of very cheap opamps [phono stage, tone amp, buffer stage... About 6 in the signal path]. You could upgrade these to something better but would you like the resulting sound ?

[RobbieGong]

Umm I'm no good at describing how things sound... It sounds very smooth & very powerful at the same time, very detailed & dynamic but not in your face at all... You don't realise how good it is until you remove it from your system & then you think "where did all the good stuff go?!"

Your Technics although top of its range is full of very cheap opamps [phono stage, tone amp, buffer stage... About 6 in the signal path]. You could upgrade these to something better but would you like the resulting sound ?

Yeah, your right James. It's funny really how they put some really nice high end / professional componants in it. I mean the large power supply has twin OFC transformers and high grade twin OFC capacitors. Then they go and surround the good stuf with the cheap bits you mention. The temptation is to take the crap out and put better stuf in. It has an external adapter which is fairly rare on integrated amps so an eq goes straight in without faff. The amp sounds a bit uninspirin and veiled to me on it's own but gosh !! How lovely, clean and detailed it sounds married with an eq - and gorgeous in the mids hence the idea to improve amp and eq often battles with the desire to seek a sonic superstar integrated amp with quality throughout it's innards, that will sound good enough to make me want to ditch my eq / amp set up :scratch:

[istari_knight]

The 770ES also has an external adapter loop :eyebrows:

I know what you mean but the transformers & caps being OFC will have no audible effect on the sound quality its just nonsense dreamt up by marketing men to impress the average punter.

Its a tricky one as on one hand I wouldn't bother with a "higher end" amplifier as any improvements are likely to be lost in the EQ... But then a better amplifier should greatly reduce the need for an EQ at all so its hard to recommend which direction you should go. May I ask how severe your EQ'ing is ? The classic rising bass & treble "smiley face" perchance ? :)

[RobbieGong]

Lol, I wouldnt say it's severe to be totally honest. In fact the more I've improved my system is the more natural sounding it's got. I dont like tizzy treble dominant / overly bright at all. A little bright over dull / bland yes. I think if I find a good powerful integrated that isnt at all veiled or dull sounding, with great clarity, detailed and lovely mids I'd ditch the eq - deep down I know I shouldnt really have an eq in the set up when a very good amp alone is a better 'hifi' route to take. The ES's caught my eye due to Jules bringing them back in my radar and the fact they most definately do have a whole lot of quality inside. :)

[istari_knight]

I think you should [if you can] host a bakeoff & get some other members either from here or 'wam to bring their amps round to your place for a shootout & you can get a feel for what you want :thumbsup:

[RobbieGong]

I think you should [if you can] host a bakeoff & get some other members either from here or 'wam to bring their amps round to your place for a shootout & you can get a feel for what you want :thumbsup:

Trust Me James, If I could I would, but with my wife (and daughters) It just aint gonna happen - More the Mrs than the girls to be honest. I think unfortunately I'll have to keep doin the old research, sell to support funds and then take a punt at some point.

[julesd68]

Does anyone here have experience or knowledge of these amps. Our own Jules reminded me of the ES’s which has got me curious again. The big TA F808es caught my eye but I read a comment online where someone found the mids a bit on the dark side which was a concern and would not suit me at all either. Other reviews are very favourable for that amp. The TA F870es is similar, maybe earlier but there is next to nothing about it online. Any experience / recommendations of the ES ? I’m interested in the big ones.

Right, time to get stuck in! Thanks for starting this thread Rob ... :)

I couldn't resist the chance to buy a mint TA-F670ES. Just thought it looked like a lot of amp for 'pocket-money' ... Had it a few days and need to do some more listening but I can assure you it is a helluva amp for the money. A lot is said about the build quality of these amps and it is all true. Just oozes quality on every front - very heavy and sturdy; just love the over-sized, super-smooth volume control and all the switches feel good. It has all the tone controls and filters etc but I went straight for the 'source direct' button to by-pass all this ...

The 808 looks fab as you mention but it's another £800 or so up in budget!! On to the sound ...


It sounds very smooth & very powerful at the same time, very detailed & dynamic but not in your face at all...

This pretty much sums up the 670 in my system. Works very nicely with my CJ valve phono-stage (not tried the internal stage), and like the phono-stage it seems to like a long warm-up to really start to sing. I would add that it has excellent bass weight and grip that suits my Tannoys very well indeed. Effortless power. Perhaps just lacks that bit of 'airiness' and top end sparkle that my valve hybrid has but it is very, very good. In terms of sheer value for money, I have not heard better, that's for sure.

I would certainly like to hear the other ES models even higher up the food chain when funds permit (ie not at the moment) but happy to enjoy this amp right now ...


Trust Me James, If I could I would, but with my wife (and daughters) It just aint gonna happen - More the Mrs than the girls to be honest. I think unfortunately I'll have to keep doin the old research, sell to support funds and then take a punt at some point.

The 670 and 770 don't go for big money so definitely worth a punt Rob. You need to hear one to make up your mind - find one in good condition and you won't lose any money if you decide to move it on ...

As for the bake-off, can't you 'bribe' Mrs Gong to be out of the house with the girls for an afternoon ... :lol:

[seoirse2002]

I think you should [if you can] host a bakeoff & get some other members either from here or 'wam to bring their amps round to your place for a shootout & you can get a feel for what you want :thumbsup:

Totally agree on the 770ES...its a super amp,and recently myself and a friend put it up against a(now mine) Denon PMA-890D for a whole evening.Although the Denon won on the evening,which in part was due to it having a built in DAC, we arranged the same again using the 777ES the following weekend...the original post is on here somewhere,and I didn't post conclusions about the 777ES for certain reasons,,,I want one!! I do agree about the warmup time as well,but when it warmed up,there was no stopping it,silky smooth to use with a sound I can only describe as rich and chocolaty. I felt I was in the room with Diana Krall at one stage..nuff said:cool:

[RobbieGong]

Totally agree on the 770ES...its a super amp,and recently myself and a friend put it up against a(now mine) Denon 890D for a whole evening.Although the Denon won on the evening,which in part was due to it having a built in DAC, we arranged the same again using the 777ES the following weekend...the original post is on here somewhere,and I didn't post conclusions about the 777ES for certain reasons,,,I want one!! I do agree about the warmup time as well,but when it warmed up,there was no stopping it, silky smooth to use with a sound I can only describe as rich and chocolaty. I felt I in the room with Diana Krall at one stage..nuff said:cool: Oi, Pack it in - that's just merciless teasing !! :lol:

[julesd68]

Two Sony 808's for sale on eBay from the same seller - too rich for me at around 1k...
Wonder where he gets them from - Germany would be my guess as its a big market for ES gear.

[istari_knight]

Sony recognised Germany as a completely separate connoisseur market to the rest of the world... In my 770ES schematics there are loads of positions where a capacitor [usually a film ;)] is marked "*Germany only*" in other positions it will say [for example] C211=2200uF/63v *4700uF/63v Germany only*

Thus I would expect a German import to be better than a domestic UK model ;)

[julesd68]

Sony recognised Germany as a completely separate connoisseur market to the rest of the world... In my 770ES schematics there are loads of positions where a capacitor [usually a film ;)] is marked "*Germany only*" in other positions it will say [for example] C211=2200uF/63v *4700uF/63v Germany only*

Thus I would expect a German import to be better than a domestic UK model ;)

Now that's interesting, the plot thickens!

I wonder if I'm brave enough to import a 770ES from Germany where they are quite plentiful - you see them on ebay and private dealers ...

[istari_knight]

Problem is they'll all be 220v input. Might be okay if you're around 230v but mines 257v :eek:

[RobbieGong]

Two Sony 808's for sale on eBay from the same seller - too rich for me at around 1k...
Wonder where he gets them from - Germany would be my guess as its a big market for ES gear.

Yeah smart seller covering all bases with one of these rare pieces in each colour. Probably sources them for no more than £3/400 I guess but knows there good rare and sought. I ain't got that sort of dough to spend no matter how good !

[julesd68]

Yeah smart seller covering all bases with one of these rare pieces in each colour. Probably sources them for no more than £3/400 I guess but knows there good rare and sought. I ain't got that sort of dough to spend no matter how good !

Who'd be silly enough to sell them to him for that kind of money though?

He seems to specialise in Japanese hi-fi, must have a good source somewhere as he invites enquiries for other models ... He sold a 707 recently for £599 or best offer ... prices are certainly on the optimistic side!

[istari_knight]

Everything he sells is 40-50% overpriced but as you say he sell's lots of rare stuff [in the UK at least]... Consider it a finders fee. He's tracked it down from goodness knows where, imported it, tested & cleaned it.... All you have to do it click BIN & wait for it to arrive.

[RobbieGong]

Who'd be silly enough to sell them to him for that kind of money though?

He seems to specialise in Japanese hi-fi, must have a good source somewhere as he invites enquiries for other models ... He sold a 707 recently for £599 or best offer ... prices are certainly on the optimistic side!

Either way he definitely asks top dollar

[RobbieGong]

Everything he sells is 40-50% overpriced but as you say he sell's lots of rare stuff [in the UK at least]... Consider it a finders fee. He's tracked it down from goodness knows where, imported it, tested & cleaned it.... All you have to do it click BIN & wait for it to arrive.

Yep who can blame him and he certainly aint sellin crap

[RobbieGong]

Looks like that lovely Black 808es has gone already, even at £899 - Just goes to show !

[julesd68]

Problem is they'll all be 220v input. Might be okay if you're around 230v but mines 257v :eek:

James, sorry if I'm being thick but I thought Germany was 230V - never had any problems with other stuff from Europe that I've used an adaptor plug with ... :scratch:

[skimminstones]

there is a sony ta-fa30es on ebay at the moment. I was considering bidding for it as ive never heard an es amp but have read bits about them being half decent. It went for £117, the buyer paid for it but it seems the seller wont honour it and has relisted the item with a buy it now of £250

[seoirse2002]

COLLECTION ONLY THOUGH:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SONY-TA-F450ESD-INTEGRATED-amplifier-with-DAC-DIGITAL-ANALOGUE-CONVERTO-/251403279070?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item3a88cd9ade

[istari_knight]

there is a sony ta-fa30es on ebay at the moment. I was considering bidding for it as ive never heard an es amp but have read bits about them being half decent. It went for £117, the buyer paid for it but it seems the seller wont honour it and has relisted the item with a buy it now of £250

Not Sony's finest hour & only just qualify as ES amps... They don't sound bad but 99% of internal components are identical to those in the TA-FB930 which you can get for half the price.

[RobbieGong]

I have learned that whats inside is very important and that James most certainly knows whats inside ;)

[julesd68]

Looks like that lovely Black 808es has gone already, even at £899 - Just goes to show !

Dammit he's got another 808 for sale now to taunt us with! Unless it's the same one re-listed for some reason of course ...

[RobbieGong]

Dammit he's got another 808 for sale now to taunt us with! Unless it's the same one re-listed for some reason of course ...

Yeah, Spotted that Jules. Nice, but there are too many other things I could do with almost a grand right now, even if I did have it. Would love to hear one though :)

[RobbieGong]

Found this comment on the hi fi database website.

As it is with 707, 770, 870, also with 808, power to crack your speakers! or burning out the amp's output stage. The reproduction quality of these amplifier series is from the musical point of view, unfortunately not as it should be, playing lower passages of music is not the job of this Amp. Large output transistors
give you endless power, which actually got nothing to do with the sound quality! Very well equipped, but the circuit and internal design makes a lot of problems to handle the input signal properly. Otherwise you always put the volume knob to hi position, to feed the preamp with more voltage. Hearing music too loud could change the reality of the recorded sound. If it doesn't matter to you,with speakers at 8 ohm, 808 would last for parties night after night.

I understand the bits about it having a lot of power etc but whats the other technical circuit, signal comment about ? and is it accurate ? Anyone with technical knowledge who can explain !

[istari_knight]

Its hard to decipher the pigeon English but it sounds like the author of that comment is needing to turn the volume up for it to sound right, suggesting its only good as a "party amp" & thus of technically inferior design ? :nono: I can only suggest the author either had a faulty example of is deaf.

IME it [they] float like a butterfly & sting like a bee... A very competent design only let down by the Sony logo. One of the finest phono stage's Sony fitted to any amplifier, class A preamplifier or a passive if you use the direct input, cunningly simple output stage & powered by a power supply that wouldn't be out of place in an arc welder ! ... Okay, that's enough of my hyperbole but you get the picture. I had an £1800 Roksan Caspian in for service recently, I stuck it in the system for a test drive & the Sony made it sound like a toy :eyebrows:

[Macca]

I'd hazard a guess he is the sort who likes the rosy glow you get from certain low powered valve amp topologies and he likes to listen quietly late at night and revel in the beauty of the sound. Which is fine if that's what you want but it isn't really accurate reproduction. Those who like that presentation really have no time for high power low distortion solid state amps like the Sony. I think it unlikely that Sony got the circuit wrong on one of their flagship products.

[RobbieGong]

I'd hazard a guess he is the sort who likes the rosy glow you get from certain low powered valve amp topologies and he likes to listen quietly late at night and revel in the beauty of the sound. Which is fine if that's what you want but it isn't really accurate reproduction. Those who like that presentation really have no time for high power low distortion solid state amps like the Sony. I think it unlikely that Sony got the circuit wrong on one of their flagship products.

Hi Macca, My thoughts exactly. Especially with much of the ES amps where all you read is how they ooz quality from inside to out. Also how it is clear that Sonys intent was to build genuine audiophile amps, which shows by way of serious top notch component parts as well as clever attention to detail. :)

[RobbieGong]

Its hard to decipher the pigeon English but it sounds like the author of that comment is needing to turn the volume up for it to sound right, suggesting its only good as a "party amp" & thus of technically inferior design ? :nono: I can only suggest the author either had a faulty example of is deaf.

IME it [they] float like a butterfly & sting like a bee... A very competent design only let down by the Sony logo. One of the finest phono stage's Sony fitted to any amplifier, class A preamplifier or a passive if you use the direct input, cunningly simple output stage & powered by a power supply that wouldn't be out of place in an arc welder ! ... Okay, that's enough of my hyperbole but you get the picture. I had an £1800 Roksan Caspian in for service recently, I stuck it in the system for a test drive & the Sony made it sound like a toy :eyebrows:

Yep ! I knew you'd know James - Your technical knowledge is an assett to the forum for sure :thumbsup:

[istari_knight]

Only in some areas ! :) Thankfully we have plenty of very knowledgeable members to help eachother out :thumbsup:

[RobbieGong]

Only in some areas ! :) Thankfully we have plenty of very knowledgeable members to help each other out :thumbsup:

Aint that the truth ! :)

[talisman2]

hi , i have a Sony 55ES stereo power amp and i would not part with it . dynamic smooth , detailed and gives a massive soundstage to both my pair of 'speakers . if you would like more info , contact me at talisman2@gmail.com

[julesd68]

Has anyone actually heard the legendary 808ES in action?

I am wondering just how good it is and whether it is worth the considerable premium over 'lesser' models. If anyone knows of one I could listen to anywhere near London please let me know!

[istari_knight]

To the best of my knowledge...The 770ES/870ES/707ES/808ES all use exactly the same circuit boards however they all have subtle differences...

770ES: BJT Drivers/MosFet outputs, "standard" grade capacitors, plastic insulated binding posts & steel top panel.

870ES: BJT Drivers/MosFet outputs, "audiophile" grade capacitors, 25% larger [than 770ES] PSU capacitors, gold plated binding posts, Gibraltar top panel, larger heatsink & slightly higher bias.

707ES: Mosfet Drivers & outputs, "audiophile" grade capacitors, 25% larger [than 770ES] PSU capacitors, plastic insulated binding posts & steel top panel.

808ES: MosFet Drivers & outputs, "audiophile" grade capacitors, 25% larger [than 770ES] PSU capacitors, gold plated binding posts, Gibraltar top panel, larger heatsink & slightly higher bias.


So in answer to your question, yes the 808ES is definitely of better quality than the others... Is it worth the extra ? Not to me but to you it may be :)

[RobbieGong]

Has anyone actually heard the legendary 808ES in action?

I am wondering just how good it is and whether it is worth the considerable premium over 'lesser' models. If anyone knows of one I could listen to anywhere near London please let me know!

Make that two of us ;)

[RobbieGong]

To the best of my knowledge...The 770ES/870ES/707ES/808ES all use exactly the same circuit boards however they all have subtle differences...

770ES: BJT Drivers/MosFet outputs, "standard" grade capacitors, plastic insulated binding posts & steel top panel.

870ES: BJT Drivers/MosFet outputs, "audiophile" grade capacitors, 25% larger [than 770ES] PSU capacitors, gold plated binding posts, Gibraltar top panel, larger heatsink & slightly higher bias.

707ES: Mosfet Drivers & outputs, "audiophile" grade capacitors, 25% larger [than 770ES] PSU capacitors, plastic insulated binding posts & steel top panel.

808ES: MosFet Drivers & outputs, "audiophile" grade capacitors, 25% larger [than 770ES] PSU capacitors, gold plated binding posts, Gibraltar top panel, larger heatsink & slightly higher bias.


So in answer to your question, yes the 808ES is definitely of better quality than the others... Is it worth the extra ? Not to me but to you it may be :)

That pretty much ties in with all I've read and heard which is that they all sound smooth, detailed and with a sense of effortless power delivery.

[julesd68]

So in answer to your question, yes the 808ES is definitely of better quality than the others... Is it worth the extra ? Not to me but to you it may be :)

I love the looks (especially the champagne gold one with wooden side-cheeks :drool: ) and I like the specs - just want to hear one of the buggers now!!!

[julesd68]

I've found that my 670ES takes quite a bit of time to warm up and come on song but then my phono stage takes a least 2-3 hours warm up to start sounding at its best, so maybe it's misleading since I switch them both on at the same time ...

I'm wondering how long other ES owners tend to leave their amps to warm up for?

[istari_knight]

Voltages take 1 second & the bias takes 6 seconds to stabilize in my 770ES... Not much more to it than that. I would suggest if its a subtle change your hearing its possibly in your head or if its a marked change the amp could probably do with a service... Does it run hot ? Nearly every ES amp I've been inside has needed the bias lowering as the internal components age & change in value it throws the settings out.

[julesd68]

Voltages take 1 second & the bias takes 6 seconds to stabilize in my 770ES... Not much more to it than that. I would suggest if its a subtle change your hearing its possibly in your head or if its a marked change the amp could probably do with a service... Does it run hot ? Nearly every ES amp I've been inside has needed the bias lowering as the internal components age & change in value it throws the settings out.

Interesting! No it doesn't run hot at all as far as I'm aware ...

The difference between start up and 2-3 hours warm up isn't subtle at all but I guess it must be down to the valve phono stage as I've only used it with vinyl so far and it's the case with both of the amps I own.

[Gromit]

Interesting! No it doesn't run hot at all as far as I'm aware ...


Sounds about right for the 670ES - when I had mine it always remained quite cool, even when being used hard. The 770ES is quite hot-running. The big heat sinks running down the r/h side kick out a lot of heat, I certainly wouldn't want to touch them directly - one reason I don't leave the amp switched on, plus it takes a fair bit of juice at idle (around 120w I think).

Anyone know the size of the transformer in the 770ES? All I do know is that it's flippin' heavy.

As to warm-up, I reckon no more than 1/2 hour before it sounds just fine. It can seem a little shut-in and grey to start with - once warm it's glorious. :)