More burning in effects ?

[MikeMusic]

Listening to Mavis last night, We'll never turn back

There's more there than I heard before, definite improvement.
Don't understand.
I'm not taking any placebos
:)

Think - I've changed nothing

What could be different ?

Oh. I wonder....
My Chord power amp had "just been serviced" before I got it.
Is that the difference ?
XLRs are now a month or so old...

[blutonium92]

Not sure, I personally find that the sound improves alot when i close my eyes. Always prefer it and notice things i hadnt before.

I keep wanting to close my eyes at classical concerts but itd look like id fallen asleep so i tend to not XD.

[Oldpinkman]

How can I put this in a cuddly non-hostile way?

No.

When I am on a proper keyboard I am going to start a power of the brain thread.

[Mr Kipling]

I never like the effect that I get with me crumpets: Black - Very Back. Hard - Very Hard. They tend to end up being despatched to the bin.

[Martyn Miles]

Listening to Mavis last night, We'll never turn back

There's more there than I heard before, definite improvement.
Don't understand.
I'm not taking any placebos
:)

Think - I've changed nothing

What could be different ?

Oh. I wonder....
My Chord power amp had "just been serviced" before I got it.
Is that the difference ?
XLRs are now a month or so old...

' XLRs are now a month or so old '. Whatever is this ? Gosh, my microphone cables have improved because the XLR plugs and sockets on them are older.
I have NEVER noticed any change when setting up my PA system. So why ever should it makes any difference on some audio system ?

To some on this Forum and elsewhere the ever-going onward search for perfection in audio continues unabated. Promoted, no doubt, by audio reviewers who really ought to know better. Being cynical, probably hand-in-hand with the makers of products claimed to give 'audio perfection' . We ( and I include myself in this ) in the pro. and semi-pro. audio world cannot believe what we read and hear. Just listen to the Australian boss ( Billy Woodman ) of ATC loudspeakers talking about ' Audiphiliacs ' at a prof. Audio exhibition. No more to be said...

[Mike A]

Martyn,

The critera for a PA system and a HiFi system are some what different. A good reason for a difference in the way sound quality may be changed by cables is signal level and the fact that in a PA system your signal cables from the stage will generally only have 1 instrument each on them and in the return to the amps it is more important to suppress noise then to worry about small nuances in sound quality. In a HiFi system you are trying to reproduce a relatively low level but quite complex signal to quite a high quality where small nuances in sound are much more important. Billy Woodmans cynicism doesn't seem to stop him being just as anal in building speakers for audiophiles as the people who buy them.

[Oldpinkman]

Martyn,

The critera for a PA system and a HiFi system are some what different. A good reason for a difference in the way sound quality may be changed by cables is signal level and the fact that in a PA system your signal cables from the stage will generally only have 1 instrument each on them and in the return to the amps it is more important to suppress noise then to worry about small nuances in sound quality. In a HiFi system you are trying to reproduce a relatively low level but quite complex signal to quite a high quality where small nuances in sound are much more important. Billy Woodmans cynicism doesn't seem to stop him being just as anal in building speakers for audiophiles as the people who buy them.

I think the validity of Martyns comment, is that "foo" for want of a better word exists in hifi but not in other areas (pro, semi-pro) where people use similar equipment and results are at least as important. The difference, I think he is implying, and if he's not, I will, is not the equipment or its use, but the perceptions and expectations of the listeners. I will reserve most of my thoughts on this for another thread, but there are good reasons why these phenomena heard and experienced and reported by audiophiles are genuine, but nothing to do with the physical item described (XLR's, mains cables etc) and everything to do with the wiring of the advanced signal processing unit which is fundamental to the listening experience - the brain.

If we take the example of mains cables and conditioning generally, it is not a hobby shared by professional recording studios, most of whom rig up the recording desks used to make the recordings on your hifi with the cheapest kettle leads. Doubtless someone will now tell me the recording studio they know that insists on designer power leads, but I could take you to several dozen that don't. It has nothing to do with a PA being less critical than a hifi (although I grant you it is). The point applies equally to recording desks where the criteria and sensitivity of the equipment are every bit as critical as in hifi. (Please don't tell me they are not - whatever detail is left for you and I to hear on our hifi's can be no greater than the maximum the recording desk is capable of achieving. You can't add in extra definition or sensitivity after the recording is finalised. Just take away, or not.) But I'd like a go at discussing that idea more on a thread of its own, cos its a big subject :)

[MartinT]

There are many external factors influencing the performance of a hi-fi system, so hearing changes from day to day is quite valid even if we're unsure of the source of the improvement.

Quite apart from discussion of burn-in, there are: the quality of the mains input (what time of day, is heavy industry close-by that shuts down after a certain time, is it the ad break during Coronation Street when a million kettles are being switched on, does the local minicab firm inject RFI crap in the evenings, etc.), the temperature, barometric pressure and humidity of the room, noise floor issues such as whether the washing machine or tumble dryer next door is increasing background noise. I'm sure there are more, but that's enough to be getting on with. The more sensitive and resolving your system, the greater the above influences become evident in your listening experience.

[Rothchild]

How come cables 'burn-in' but don't 'burn-out' or do all of those who advocate a good burn in period replace their cables on a regular basis?

Presumably the audiable effects of 'burn-out' are just as marked as those of 'burn-in'?

Like others I would suggest that what's changed is your perception, not the cable.

This thread has a very stong deja-vu to it?!

[Oldpinkman]

There are many external factors influencing the performance of a hi-fi system, so hearing changes from day to day is quite valid even if we're unsure of the source of the improvement.

Quite apart from discussion of burn-in, there are: the quality of the mains input (what time of day, is heavy industry close-by that shuts down after a certain time, is it the ad break during Coronation Street when a million kettles are being switched on, does the local minicab firm inject RFI crap in the evenings, etc.), the temperature, barometric pressure and humidity of the room, noise floor issues such as whether the washing machine or tumble dryer next door is increasing background noise. I'm sure there are more, but that's enough to be getting on with. The more sensitive and resolving your system, the greater the above influences become evident in your listening experience.

One for my thread. The night time phenomena you report is widely reported. The leading myth (theoretical proposal) is that it is due to mains noise from microwaves and the like as you suggest. There is NO scientific basis for that I am aware of. By contrast, Lincoln Bosse at Stanford University has identified a "masking effect". In short, the reason music sounds better on our hifi at night isn't cleaner mains. It is just that at night the ambient background noise is lower, and therefore our hearings perception is changed because we hear sound which is more pure, and less masked by background noise. Of course, states of fatigue and relaxation, a good bottle of red etc may be other factors. But specifically regarding mains noise - no scientific basis, and the Stanford research into human auditory properties and a masking threshold (with regard to white noise and lost detail) explains the phenomena you and others hear in other terms. :cool:

[MartinT]

There is NO scientific basis for that I am aware of.

Which kind of science is that, exactly? ;)

Distortion of the mains waveform during peak loads, and injected noise, are perfectly observable and measurable. I've seen it myself on a 'scope many times.

[Oldpinkman]

Which kind of science is that, exactly? ;)

Distortion of the mains waveform during peak loads, and injected noise, are perfectly observable and measurable. I've seen it myself on a 'scope many times.

My understanding Martin is that the mains issue is not definitively accepted by all. As a broad generalisation those with engineering and scientific knowledge actively applying those skills professionally in this field do not accept it. If the phenomena were capable of measurement, they assuredly would accept it. Perhaps its a question of causal relationships. "It always rains when the pavements are wet". I can measure the ambient temperature and demonstrate it drops at night, but that doesn't in itself demonstrate ambient temperature affects audio reproduction in HiFi audibly.

Since it is possible to measure noise on a waveform, then surely it is possible to measure the noise caused by mains of differing qualities on the waveforms present in an audio components music signal when fed by that mains. I had understood that to be part of the quoted "noise" figures for equipment. I am not aware that there are measurements which show the effect of mains noise on either well designed dc rails, or the consequent audio signal produced. I cannot believe there would be a competent engineer left standing who doubted the benefit of mains products if that measurement were possible and had been carried out.

[Welder]

Most studios I know of do have some arrangement to reduce common mode noise, be it balanced supplies, or regeneration, etc.
As I understand it the problem is generally restricted to situations where you have long runs of bundled wires but it does exist to a greater or lesser extent with any differential signaling.

I have a balanced mains transformer in my setup which I believe makes a very small difference. However, apparently any well designed amplifier will have adequate common mode rejection.

The “my stereo sounds better at night” is quite an interesting topic. My stereo out here in the sticks sounds about the same day or night to me. But, we roughly measured the ambient noise here and apart from the cockerel letting rip during the process, 30 db was possible if we stopped breathing. :D

As for the burning in question, I think its nonsense unless we’re talking about the mechanical coupling in say loudspeakers. :mental:

[Oldpinkman]

Most studios I know of do have some arrangement to reduce common mode noise, be it balanced supplies, or regeneration, etc.


As for the burning in question, I think its nonsense unless we’re talking about the mechanical coupling in say loudspeakers. :mental:

I really should be more disciplined and start a thread, but I agree. It's not so much that something like a speaker or cartridge absolutely doesn't "run in" - it clearly might, and doubtless some do. First its "so what?". Are you going to keep buying fresh ones because you prefer the sound? Second - its the way folk talk with authority and give advice . "A Goldring 1022 generally takes about 25 hours to run in, although you can hear differences up to 50 hours". Says who? Measured how? Who buys 10 cartridges, checks they are identical (without unduly running them in) then runs them in 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 and nil hours, and compares and grades them? Everyone making a comment of the sort I quoted thinks they have heard a difference once with an item they bought once, and have enjoyed more since. The fact that it might, just possibly run in, doesnt mean it has to. And since none of us can travel back in time to do an A:B we can none of us be sure. And no manufacturer carries out tests or publishes run-in periods.

A far more likely explanation is to do with the difference between right and left brain hemispheres and when and how we use them. Must start that thread... ;)

[Martyn Miles]

The whole ' Burn In ' thing is absolute rubbish. If you can show results in a scientific and objective way then please do so.
After all, that is the only way to do it. As I read post after post about burning in expensive components, be they cables, amplifiers or even audiophile fuses (?!) all I can think is the owners are attempting to kid themselves that the vast amount they've spent must have made a difference. Not improvement. Difference.

[MartinT]

The whole ' Burn In ' thing is absolute rubbish.

Thank you for dismissing the views of a large number of members here with your absolute statement. Clearly, we've been told. Luckily, some of us have ears and know differently.

[Oldpinkman]

The whole ' Burn In ' thing is absolute rubbish. If you can show results in a scientific and objective way then please do so.
After all, that is the only way to do it. As I read post after post about burning in expensive components, be they cables, amplifiers or even audiophile fuses (?!) all I can think is the owners are attempting to kid themselves that the vast amount they've spent must have made a difference. Not improvement. Difference.

I share the view that it is unlikely that many of the "burn in" results reported are real. I have not yet seen any persuasive "science" to account for burn in of cables (or most other electronic components). As we noted, "run in" of mechanical devices must be possible, but doesn't mean it has to be heard or noticed.

I think your view that people "imagine" they hear this to justify their purchase isn't obvious to me. I can see why people might imagine they can hear a difference between an expensive mains cable and an ordinary one, to justify the money they spent. But I can't see how that applies to burn in. If I buy a cartridge or a mains lead, the fact that it might or might not "burn in" isn't down to what I've spent on it. I can't see there is any buyer kudos in a cartridge sounding better after a few weeks. If it does - its going to anyway - there is nothing anyone can do about it.

No I think the reported "burn in" factor, for items which, according to science, ought not to exhibit such behaviour, and quite possibly a lot of the others too, is more likely down to perceptions and expectations (peer pressure effectively) but particularly "familiarisation" and extra particularly due to the difference between right brain and left brain dominance issues.

Of course, as noted in an earlier post, unlike other contentious claimed audio benefits (such as mains cables) it is bloody difficult to just do a simple blind auditioning proof, thanks to the current limitations of time travel. ;)

Gordon (who posted a copy of a very interesting, but long, article about "Hifi fetishism" on here not so long ago) would call that listening to the equipment instead of listening to the music. And I think that is at the crux. I am particularly aware of it having been doing a fair bit of "equipment audition" for a friend recently. I had forgotten after all this time how it interferes with your listening pleasure. I am sure, at least part of this, (I rather think a great big part), is because that "evaluation" switches you to left brain dominated listening. Once you stop "evaluating" you more naturally listen in a right brain state - and that is infinitely more enjoyable. Hence the "burn in" :cool:

[MikeMusic]

' XLRs are now a month or so old '. Whatever is this ? Gosh, my microphone cables have improved because the XLR plugs and sockets on them are older.
I have NEVER noticed any change when setting up my PA system. So why ever should it makes any difference on some audio system ?

To some on this Forum and elsewhere the ever-going onward search for perfection in audioXLR continues unabated. Promoted, no doubt, by audio reviewers who really ought to know better. Being cynical, probably hand-in-hand with the makers of products claimed to give 'audio perfection' . We ( and I include myself in this ) in the pro. and semi-pro. audio world cannot believe what we read and hear. Just listen to the Australian boss ( Billy Woodman ) of ATC loudspeakers talking about ' Audiphiliacs ' at a prof. Audio exhibition. No more to be said...
My "XLRs" being shorthand for the XLR terminated cables between Isis, Pass Labs and Chord
I was putting my money on the Chord getting better but threw that in

[MikeMusic]

I think the validity of Martyns comment, is that "foo" for want of a better word exists in hifi but not in other areas (pro, semi-pro) where people use similar equipment and results are at least as important. The difference, I think he is implying, and if he's not, I will, is not the equipment or its use, but the perceptions and expectations of the listeners. I will reserve most of my thoughts on this for another thread, but there are good reasons why these phenomena heard and experienced and reported by audiophiles are genuine, but nothing to do with the physical item described (XLR's, mains cables etc) and everything to do with the wiring of the advanced signal processing unit which is fundamental to the listening experience - the brain.

If we take the example of mains cables and conditioning generally, it is not a hobby shared by professional recording studios, most of whom rig up the recording desks used to make the recordings on your hifi with the cheapest kettle leads. Doubtless someone will now tell me the recording studio they know that insists on designer power leads, but I could take you to several dozen that don't. It has nothing to do with a PA being less critical than a hifi (although I grant you it is). The point applies equally to recording desks where the criteria and sensitivity of the equipment are every bit as critical as in hifi. (Please don't tell me they are not - whatever detail is left for you and I to hear on our hifi's can be no greater than the maximum the recording desk is capable of achieving. You can't add in extra definition or sensitivity after the recording is finalised. Just take away, or not.) But I'd like a go at discussing that idea more on a thread of its own, cos its a big subject :)
I'd love to know the sort of kit and approach used in the studio for a really good sounding album.
I've added Sade to my list of people who seem to get a superb sound out of their albums

[MikeMusic]

How come cables 'burn-in' but don't 'burn-out' or do all of those who advocate a good burn in period replace their cables on a regular basis?

Presumably the audiable effects of 'burn-out' are just as marked as those of 'burn-in'?

Like others I would suggest that what's changed is your perception, not the cable.

This thread has a very stong deja-vu to it?!

Good point about burn out. Hadn't thought of that if it happens
My perception was only of one favourite album that hadn't been played for a while.
Could I be wrong ? - sure.
However I think there has been a nice uplift in sound quality

[MikeMusic]

One for my thread. The night time phenomena you report is widely reported. The leading myth (theoretical proposal) is that it is due to mains noise from microwaves and the like as you suggest. There is NO scientific basis for that I am aware of. By contrast, Lincoln Bosse at Stanford University has identified a "masking effect". In short, the reason music sounds better on our hifi at night isn't cleaner mains. It is just that at night the ambient background noise is lower, and therefore our hearings perception is changed because we hear sound which is more pure, and less masked by background noise. Of course, states of fatigue and relaxation, a good bottle of red etc may be other factors. But specifically regarding mains noise - no scientific basis, and the Stanford research into human auditory properties and a masking threshold (with regard to white noise and lost detail) explains the phenomena you and others hear in other terms. :cool:

This was around 6pm

[MikeMusic]

As for the burning in question, I think its nonsense unless we’re talking about the mechanical coupling in say loudspeakers
My system sounds better after I have had kit and/or cables running for some time.
Burn in seems to be the best way to describe it.
If something else is happening or there is a more relevant phrase I'm happy to change tack

[MikeMusic]

The whole ' Burn In ' thing is absolute rubbish. If you can show results in a scientific and objective way then please do so.
After all, that is the only way to do it. As I read post after post about burning in expensive components, be they cables, amplifiers or even audiophile fuses (?!) all I can think is the owners are attempting to kid themselves that the vast amount they've spent must have made a difference. Not improvement. Difference.
My Naim kit was disappointing after it had been serviced but I had been warned it would take a while to come on song.
It did after a couple of weeks.

[MikeMusic]

I think your view that people "imagine" they hear this to justify their purchase isn't obvious to me. I can see why people might imagine they can hear a difference between an expensive mains cable and an ordinary one, to justify the money they spent. But I can't see how that applies to burn in. If I buy a cartridge or a mains lead, the fact that it might or might not "burn in" isn't down to what I've spent on it. I can't see there is any buyer kudos in a cartridge sounding better after a few weeks. If it does - its going to anyway - there is nothing anyone can do about it.

No I think the reported "burn in" factor, for items which, according to science, ought not to exhibit such behaviour, and quite possibly a lot of the others too, is more likely down to perceptions and expectations (peer pressure effectively) but particularly "familiarisation" and extra particularly due to the difference between right brain and left brain dominance issues.

Of course, as noted in an earlier post, unlike other contentious claimed audio benefits (such as mains cables) it is bloody difficult to just do a simple blind auditioning proof, thanks to the current limitations of time travel. ;)

Gordon (who posted a copy of a very interesting, but long, article about "Hifi fetishism" on here not so long ago) would call that listening to the equipment instead of listening to the music. And I think that is at the crux. I am particularly aware of it having been doing a fair bit of "equipment audition" for a friend recently. I had forgotten after all this time how it interferes with your listening pleasure. I am sure, at least part of this, (I rather think a great big part), is because that "evaluation" switches you to left brain dominated listening. Once you stop "evaluating" you more naturally listen in a right brain state - and that is infinitely more enjoyable. Hence the "burn in" :cool:

I'm a poor excuse for a hifi enthusiast as I listen to the music and I find the kit comparing sessions tiring and disppointing when I don't get what I want - a better sound

I had just thought I wanted to hear Mavis.
Then I had the surprise. The whole sound was better.
Is it me ?
Got the old dear with the one golden ear to have a listen
Is is better ?
Yes.
Ah good. Not me losing marbles then

[Oldpinkman]

I'm a poor excuse for a hifi enthusiast as I listen to the music and I find the kit comparing sessions tiring and disppointing when I don't get what I want - a better sound

I had just thought I wanted to hear Mavis.
Then I had the surprise. The whole sound was better.
Is it me ?
Got the old dear with the one golden ear to have a listen
Is is better ?
Yes.
Ah good. Not me losing marbles then

No - I think that's a fine thing Mike. If you're enjoying the end result don't worry too much about how you get there. It can be almost as anoraky worrying about psycho-acoustic effects and brain hemispheres as endlessly obsessing about cables and connectors, but I like the guys I have been playing with hifi with recently, and the end results (when I get to stop equipment evaluating and listen to a tune or two) make it worthwile too. I find the brain stuff as fascinating as the gizmo's stuff, and probably understand it equally poorly. I think the thing I want to play with on this thread I talk about and never start is the whole mind thing - cos it is fascinating. I think bringing the subject up is tantamount to accusing some people of being delusional, and yet there are any number of reasons for believing that our ears are a fairly small contributor to what we hear - and the old signal processor quite a big one. Especially in the murky world of evaluating things.

And I get frustrated by the "science trashing" of some people. But - I nearly started on one, and it really is better saved for a thread of its own. :cool:

[Gordon Steadman]

Gordon (who posted a copy of a very interesting, but long, article about "Hifi fetishism" on here not so long ago) would call that listening to the equipment instead of listening to the music. And I think that is at the crux. I am particularly aware of it having been doing a fair bit of "equipment audition" for a friend recently. I had forgotten after all this time how it interferes with your listening pleasure.

Says it all for me. I am convinced that 'hi-fi' and 'listening to music' are two different and not necessarily closely related hobbies. When I were a young man, several years ago, I used to spend some time listening to differences between equipment. I finally realised that most of them were just that - differences - I long ago came to the conclusion that as soon as I started to enjoy the music, that was the time to stop buying and just listen. I have seen or heard nothing in the last thirty years to change that conclusion.

Apart from anything else, it gives me time to obsess about wooden stuff, food, wine and 'interpersonal relationships'. Much more fun and, if accompanied by great music, much more satisfying.

[Martyn Miles]

Thank you for dismissing the views of a large number of members here with your absolute statement. Clearly, we've been told. Luckily, some of us have ears and know differently.

This is purely subjective. The only cable that can burn in ( if that's the correct term ) is a resistance one, as in a heater. It's another silly thing along with those speaker cables kept off the floor with wooden pillars .
What is it with people ? Do they ever just listen to music, instead of looking for audio nirvana.

[MartinT]

Do they ever just listen to music, instead of looking for audio nirvana.

46 posts in and you think you know people here? You'll find plenty of evidence that nearly all members here put the music first.

[Macca]

For me it all boils down to two things - reduce distortion of all kinds to a minimum. Reduce noise from all possible sources to a minimum. Then the music can speak for itself. It is interesting to note that those that have been in the game for a long time tend to settle on loudspeakers that have as low distortion as possible - either due to large drive units and cabs for example Tannoy DC or electrostatics. Contrary to what some say we don't all hear differently and what I regard as a good sound is the same as what you regard as a good sound. It is not easy to get this even if you are prepared to throw a lot of money at the problem. Whether mains cables or speaker cable supports or fancy racks or other 'non scientific' products can contribute to these objectives is the only moot point.

Suffice it to say if you hear a system you don't rate but whose owner thinks is wonderful then you can be pretty sure that he has either never heard anything better or he is kidding himself. It is very easy to kid yourself.

[synsei]

This is purely subjective. The only cable that can burn in ( if that's the correct term ) is a resistance one, as in a heater. It's another silly thing along with those speaker cables kept off the floor with wooden pillars .
What is it with people ? Do they ever just listen to music, instead of looking for audio nirvana.

Yup, I listen to music, however it sounds far better after the burn in process is complete. Note that I have not brought your integrity into question even though I happen to disagree with you, therefore I politely request that you refrain from questioning the integrity of others who have experienced this phenomenon, a multitude of times...

[Martyn Miles]

I have experienced conning in many areas, including audio. I don't doubt you hear what your hear. What I complain about is the purveyors of so called audio nirvana. They are pandering to people who are unsure where they are with something.
Car manufacturers constantly tell us their vehicle will bring satisfaction. Audio manufacturers do the same.
It's not about the product. It's about people who are constantly looking for something they will never find...

[synsei]

Barring my little accident today in which I killed the Coles supertweeters in my DM2's, which has put paid to further progress for now, I have very much enjoyed hearing the Talk 3 speaker cables I acquired a couple of days ago gradually spread their wings. Now, I am not imagining this Martyn it is really happening. Incidentally, my partner has also noticed that these cables are opening up in front of her ears, so to speak. Without any prompting from me (bearing in mind she is a music lover rather than an audiophile), this morning she commented that her favourite album sounded better today than it did yesterday. I rest my case m'lud ;)

[Mike A]

Too many otherwise intelligent people fall into the trap of believing that because they haven't, can't or won't hear something that it therefore doesn't exist.

[mr sneff]

Too many otherwise intelligent people fall into the trap of believing that because they haven't, can't or won't hear something that it therefore doesn't exist.

Well, if the listener hasn't or can't hear what I understand is a subjective effect then for that listener it doesn't exist.

[Mike A]

Well, if the listener hasn't or can't hear what I understand is a subjective effect then for that listener it doesn't exist.

Yeah, poorly phrased by me, I meant to say "doesn't exist for anyone else either". Sorry, will try and do better in future :)

[Oldpinkman]

My system sounds better after I have had kit and/or cables running for some time.
Burn in seems to be the best way to describe it.
If something else is happening or there is a more relevant phrase I'm happy to change tack

Mike. Sorry I've ignored a couple of your comments quoting mine. Can't do you sade but could organise a studio visit. They use kettle leads not donkeys wallopers. John (welders) comment was good. They worry about mains noise -its for real and affects sound- just look at poor lace'd taste thread. So cable routing matters. Signal (not mains) cables are shielded. In fact balanced connections are almost universal since there are some long cable runs. As john notes mains issues shouldn't affect a well designed piece of equipment internally.

Time of day? 6pm. I'll try to do my brain thread but that was more about mains noise than burn in.

The term used doeent really matter. Its is it real that is the issue. I guess if we called it "getting used to it" or "settling in" that takes awwy the idea that there is an actual change and more a perceived one.

But my idea why your system sounds better after time (and I don't doubt it does) is that it sounds that way due to how we hear, rather than how IT has changed. :)

[Oldpinkman]

Barring my little accident today in which I killed the Coles supertweeters in my DM2's, which has put paid to further progress for now, I have very much enjoyed hearing the Talk 3 speaker cables I acquired a couple of days ago gradually spread their wings. Now, I am not imagining this Martyn it is really happening. Incidentally, my partner has also noticed that these cables are opening up in front of her ears, so to speak. Without any prompting from me (bearing in mind she is a music lover rather than an audiophile), this morning she commented that her favourite album sounded better today than it did yesterday. I rest my case m'lud ;)

I am neither going to challenge your integrity nor question your experience. I am going to note my puzzlement that I can't share your experiences although I can share so many others regarding listening to music and go on (on another thread) to discuss how what we hear is due to how our brains process information as much as it is about the movement of the ear drum or the actual sound existing in the room. It occurs to me however that talk 3 speaker cables would be a nice affordable item for a proper blind a:b test between a burned in set and a fresh one.

[Oldpinkman]

Too many otherwise intelligent people fall into the trap of believing that because they haven't, can't or won't hear something that it therefore doesn't exist.

Possibly so. However this particular chap finds the whole business very puzzling. I can hear differences in platters, mats, arms, tracking force, cartridges, electrical loading, amplifiers and others. Not laying claim to golden ears but both at pink and recently at funk I have done some "pressure" blind testing, and a highly respected old man of british hifi trusts my hearing and acts on it. Personally i thinkmy mrs is at least as good, and more decisive quicker. And we can't hear these effects.we think we hear things but when we try to go back and check we don't hear them reliably. Not in the way we hear cartridges etc. That's odd.

And nobody has provided me, or done a more general public demonstration that they can properly either. And current science suggests it is not possible. So for the moment, for me, until something persuasive comes along to change my mind, I am inclined to think the phenomenon is more due to known issues about hearing and the brain, and less likely to be due to the laws of physics being fundamentally compromised or poorly understood by all engineers working in the field :)

[Rothchild]

Well, if the listener hasn't or can't hear what I understand is a subjective effect then for that listener it doesn't exist.

Very well put, the fact that this is an effect that both does and does not exist should be enough to raise suspicions.

[MikeMusic]

Mike. Sorry I've ignored a couple of your comments quoting mine. Can't do you sade but could organise a studio visit. They use kettle leads not donkeys wallopers. John (welders) comment was good. They worry about mains noise -its for real and affects sound- just look at poor lace'd taste thread. So cable routing matters. Signal (not mains) cables are shielded. In fact balanced connections are almost universal since there are some long cable runs. As john notes mains issues shouldn't affect a well designed piece of equipment internally.

Time of day? 6pm. I'll try to do my brain thread but that was more about mains noise than burn in.

The term used doeent really matter. Its is it real that is the issue. I guess if we called it "getting used to it" or "settling in" that takes awwy the idea that there is an actual change and more a perceived one.

But my idea why your system sounds better after time (and I don't doubt it does) is that it sounds that way due to how we hear, rather than how IT has changed. :)
Nil problemo
I innocently noted my system sound better on an album I know very well.
Initially didn't understand so started looking for reasons.
Assumed it is either the Chord after a service and or the Yannis XLR I/Cs 'improving'
3rd reason is 'other'. Dunno what that would be.
What I'd like to know is what the good guys use when they produce such good music. Ry Cooder being he producer on Mavis's album is a clue as most of his albums are superb.
But is is Ry, I think it is, or is it some guy who he always uses that uses x kit/setup/other thing........
Thinking of others... was going to list but selected highlights are...
Carmel
Eric - some, not all
Eno
Gomez
Gong
Kissing the pink
Baaba Maal
Paul McCartney
Mountain Goats
Stan RIdgway
Sting
Was (not Was)

Maybe it has nothing to do with mains leads and everything to do with - something - what ?

[Marco]

The whole ' Burn In ' thing is absolute rubbish...

Hi Martyn,

Disagree with and dismiss the concept, by all means, but please don't refer to it as "absolute rubbish". Such language is inflammatory and demeans the valid experiences of those who have heard the effect, whether or not the term 'burn in' is an accurate description of the phenomenon.

We're always nice to each other on AoS, whether we agree or not. Therefore, in future, please do not rudely dismiss someone else's valid experiences like that, as you are not the arbiter here of what is considered as "rubbish", absolute or otherwise.

Thank you! :)

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Mike
I am afraid I know neither the engineers, studios, or specific equipment for the artists you mention. I know a few studios and a few dozen musicians. They will worry about mikes, mike placement, acoustic room treatment, the blanket in a bass drum, the paint on a japanese stratocaster...
I have never kniwn one worry about what mains lead they use. Even signal leads the criteria is reliability and robustness not sound quality. With regards to mains leads, if a bad one masks some detail on our reproduction equipment, it was lost long ago on the recording desk which would have no special fat mains cable. :)

[Martyn Miles]

Hi Martyn,

Disagree with and dismiss the concept, by all means, but please don't refer to it as "absolute rubbish". Such language is inflammatory and demeans the valid experiences of those who have heard the effect, whether or not the term 'burn in' is an accurate description of the phenomenon.

We're always nice to each other on AoS, whether we agree or not. Therefore, in future, please do not rudely dismiss someone else's valid experiences like that, as you are not the arbiter here of what is considered as "rubbish", absolute or otherwise.

Thank you! :)

Marco.

OK. I am sorry. Martyn

[Marco]

No worries, dude. Apology accepted (but unnecessary) :)

Like I said, you're perfectly entitled to your views on the subject, the same as anyone else is. It's not about the views themselves, but rather how they are expressed.

Marco.

[YNWaN]

It's an interesting one this idea of 'burning in' and if you read the forums and magazines it would be easy to think that it is widely accepted, even a consensus view. I would say there are actually three separate elements to what is refereed to as 'burn in'.

The first is 'electronic component burn in' - it is pretty much accepted that capacitors don't fully form (electrolytic at least) until charge is passed through them, though this should be a very short time in most cases. Very few would extend this idea of 'burn in' to resistors, diodes etc., though it is not uncommon for hi-fi enthusiasts to attribute weeks, or months, of 'burn in' for capacitors.

The second is 'passive component burn in' and this usually means the idea that cables, mains, speaker and interconnect, change character/quality as they are used. Again, it is common that enthusiasts that promote this idea say this 'burn in' takes weeks or months. Interestingly, I have never heard of someone reporting that a cable has become worse with repeated use, only that it has improved.

The third is not really 'burn in' at all but 'warm up' - but these are sometimes confused. As a component is turned on the transistors start to warm up, the capacitors charge. Depending on the specific component, measurable differences can be observed and changes can sometimes be heard (in my experience) - some components seem to show this aspect more than others.

Now I have three close audio buddies that i regularly share experience with, between us we have over eighty years of experience listening to, building and 'fiddling' with hi-fi equipment. One of us is very much an objectavist, one subjectivist and the other somewhere in between. None of us have ever experienced option 2 'passive component burn in' - yep, none of us have heard a cable change in terms of sound quality in any way over time. I've heard cables sound different, but they sounded the same on day one as day 101; that is my own experience and that of my friends.

[MikeMusic]

Mike
I am afraid I know neither the engineers, studios, or specific equipment for the artists you mention. I know a few studios and a few dozen musicians. They will worry about mikes, mike placement, acoustic room treatment, the blanket in a bass drum, the paint on a japanese stratocaster...
I have never kniwn one worry about what mains lead they use. Even signal leads the criteria is reliability and robustness not sound quality. With regards to mains leads, if a bad one masks some detail on our reproduction equipment, it was lost long ago on the recording desk which would have no special fat mains cable. :)
And herein lies the riddle and problem
How do these people get these good results ?
Some of it can be trade secrets, but I bet a load of it is common sense.
As all seem to speak highly of him and his remasters does Steve Wilson have some answers ?

[MikeMusic]

It's an interesting one this idea of 'burning in' and if you read the forums and magazines it would be easy to think that it is widely accepted, even a consensus view. I would say there are actually three separate elements to what is refereed to as 'burn in'.

The first is 'electronic component burn in' - it is pretty much accepted that capacitors don't fully form (electrolytic at least) until charge is passed through them, though this should be a very short time in most cases. Very few would extend this idea of 'burn in' to resistors, diodes etc., though it is not uncommon for hi-fi enthusiasts to attribute weeks, or months, of 'burn in' for capacitors.

The second is 'passive component burn in' and this usually means the idea that cables, mains, speaker and interconnect, change character/quality as they are used. Again, it is common that enthusiasts that promote this idea say this 'burn in' takes weeks or months. Interestingly, I have never heard of someone reporting that a cable has become worse with repeated use, only that it has improved.

The third is not really 'burn in' at all but 'warm up' - but these are sometimes confused. As a component is turned on the transistors start to warm up, the capacitors charge. Depending on the specific component, measurable differences can be observed and changes can sometimes be heard (in my experience) - some components seem to show this aspect more than others.

Now I have three close audio buddies that i regularly share experience with, between us we have over eighty years of experience listening to, building and 'fiddling' with hi-fi equipment. One of us is very much an objectavist, one subjectivist and the other somewhere in between. None of us have ever experienced option 2 'passive component burn in' - yep, none of us have heard a cable change in terms of sound quality in any way over time. I've heard cables sound different, but they sounded the same on day one as day 101; that is my own experience and that of my friends.
Burn in for cables sounded at least slightly ridiculous when I first heard it.
It seems to work here although I haven't done it scientifically.
Kit warm up is certainly a factor and I have test that.

[MikeMusic]

Duh
Just remembered there was another change since last playing Mavis

Upgrading the MCRU Ultimates to Mk 3

So maybe burn in and maybe not.......

Been trying to think if I heard Mavis before or after the Mk 3. Can't be 100% sure
Mr. Scientific :doh:

[mr sneff]

It's an interesting one this idea of 'burning in' and if you read the forums and magazines it would be easy to think that it is widely accepted, even a consensus view. I would say there are actually three separate elements to what is refereed to as 'burn in'.

The first is 'electronic component burn in' - it is pretty much accepted that capacitors don't fully form (electrolytic at least) until charge is passed through them, though this should be a very short time in most cases. Very few would extend this idea of 'burn in' to resistors, diodes etc., though it is not uncommon for hi-fi enthusiasts to attribute weeks, or months, of 'burn in' for capacitors.

The second is 'passive component burn in' and this usually means the idea that cables, mains, speaker and interconnect, change character/quality as they are used. Again, it is common that enthusiasts that promote this idea say this 'burn in' takes weeks or months. Interestingly, I have never heard of someone reporting that a cable has become worse with repeated use, only that it has improved.

The third is not really 'burn in' at all but 'warm up' - but these are sometimes confused. As a component is turned on the transistors start to warm up, the capacitors charge. Depending on the specific component, measurable differences can be observed and changes can sometimes be heard (in my experience) - some components seem to show this aspect more than others.

Now I have three close audio buddies that i regularly share experience with, between us we have over eighty years of experience listening to, building and 'fiddling' with hi-fi equipment. One of us is very much an objectavist, one subjectivist and the other somewhere in between. None of us have ever experienced option 2 'passive component burn in' - yep, none of us have heard a cable change in terms of sound quality in any way over time. I've heard cables sound different, but they sounded the same on day one as day 101; that is my own experience and that of my friends.:)

I've heard 'electronic component burn in' with a few pieces of kit, never heard burn in with any cables or really heard warm up. I think a big factor is psychological, some years ago I bought, after reading some rave reviews, a Van Den Hul 'The First' metal free interconnect. I was distinctly underwhelmed when I first put it into the system, but having shelled out nearly £200 I persevered and over the next few days came to notice subtle differences to my usual interconnect and convinced myself that I preferred it. You might think that the cable had 'burnt in', but when a fellow enthusiast was visiting I proudly demonstrated the new interconnect and swapped the old cable back into the system for comparison. Neither of us could hear a damn difference!

[Tim]

I have experienced conning in many areas, including audio. I don't doubt you hear what your hear. What I complain about is the purveyors of so called audio nirvana. They are pandering to people who are unsure where they are with something.
Car manufacturers constantly tell us their vehicle will bring satisfaction. Audio manufacturers do the same.
It's not about the product. It's about people who are constantly looking for something they will never find...
Isn't that up to them though - some people enjoy that search . . . suum cuique?

[walpurgis]

not really 'burn in' at all but 'warm up'

That's largely my view too.

There's also the 'acclimatisation factor'. A new addition to the system alters the sound and you spend a while getting used to the new sound. That, I believe is what people are perceiving as 'burn in'.

[YNWaN]

I would agree.

[mr sneff]

That's largely my view too.

There's also the 'acclimatisation factor'. A new addition to the system alters the sound and you spend a while getting used to the new sound. That, I believe is what people are perceiving as 'burn in'.

+1

[MartinT]

The third is not really 'burn in' at all but 'warm up' - but these are sometimes confused. As a component is turned on the transistors start to warm up, the capacitors charge. Depending on the specific component, measurable differences can be observed and changes can sometimes be heard (in my experience) - some components seem to show this aspect more than others.

Yes, I do agree that they can be confused and that warm-up is a very easily heard phenomenon. My preamp, especially, likes to be fully warmed up so I leave it on permanently.

[The Black Adder]

Thanks to Marco, Anthony and Glenn for recommending this latest mod, Anthony (Tube Distinctions) fitted these new caps (Obligato SCR Teflon) to my pre-amp and although the immediate differences were very obvious after a few days these are really coming in to their own. Things are just getting better and better.

That and a full set of KT120's doing their business... I can't believe how my system now sounds. It's really quite amazing.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/AOS%20system/DSC08335.jpg

[mr sneff]

Car manufacturers constantly tell us their vehicle will bring satisfaction. Audio manufacturers do the same.
It's not about the product. It's about people who are constantly looking for something they will never find...

At the end of the day whatever equipment you use, however high end or whatever, what you're listening to is a reproduction of a musical event (and with modern recording techniques even the event is illusory). That said if it was just a case of 'plug and play' (and countless people are happy with just that), being an audiophile wouldn't be much of a hobby. The search and the tweaking is what makes it fascinating for some. Even if the goal is a mirage, for some it's about 'the journey'.

[Oldpinkman]

And herein lies the riddle and problem
How do these people get these good results ?
Some of it can be trade secrets, but I bet a load of it is common sense.
As all seem to speak highly of him and his remasters does Steve Wilson have some answers ?

I don't think trade secrets particularly. More "style" and "approach" than the particular equipment used. But there is a lot of equipment loving in there too. I like the idea of simple mic techniques and minimal production - but my early experiments with that were,well, naff is too kind really. There is so much to it and so many others know so much more about it than I do, that anything other than a quick response out of manners is fairly daft. There are stages to getting it right. The room has to sound right first - so one of the bands I know recently recorded in a local church for the acoustic. Microphone types will make a difference - and different mikes for different jobs. In studio recordings large diaphragm condensers like my MXL are used more than in live settings, but I still use SM57 dynamics in the studios (the kids use them all the time). There are different microphone preamps (valves are popular). Mike positioning and microphone technique all affect things - 2 quick examples - Sue wobbles back and forth singing and likes a mike on a stand. Her training is microphoneless singing, and she really doesn't get them. So we get better results if the mike is not too close. If I mike an acoustic guitar, if I point the mike at the soundhole its real bassy - pointing at the 12th fret works best for me, although you pick up more string "squeak" (that could be my poor technique). Too many bright small diaphragm condensers in a mix can give a really bright overall mix. Tons of stuff - recording and engineering mixes are huge subjects. But I guess a lot of it comes down to knowing how you want the finished product to sound. Nobody fusses which mains lead they use ;)

[Oldpinkman]

That's largely my view too.

There's also the 'acclimatisation factor'. A new addition to the system alters the sound and you spend a while getting used to the new sound. That, I believe is what people are perceiving as 'burn in'.

+ another 1. That in a way sums up this other thread I keep drivelling on about, but I still fancy it because the brain is such a fascinating subject. Any moment....

[MikeMusic]

I don't think trade secrets particularly. More "style" and "approach" than the particular equipment used. But there is a lot of equipment loving in there too. I like the idea of simple mic techniques and minimal production - but my early experiments with that were,well, naff is too kind really. There is so much to it and so many others know so much more about it than I do, that anything other than a quick response out of manners is fairly daft. There are stages to getting it right. The room has to sound right first - so one of the bands I know recently recorded in a local church for the acoustic. Microphone types will make a difference - and different mikes for different jobs. In studio recordings large diaphragm condensers like my MXL are used more than in live settings, but I still use SM57 dynamics in the studios (the kids use them all the time). There are different microphone preamps (valves are popular). Mike positioning and microphone technique all affect things - 2 quick examples - Sue wobbles back and forth singing and likes a mike on a stand. Her training is microphoneless singing, and she really doesn't get them. So we get better results if the mike is not too close. If I mike an acoustic guitar, if I point the mike at the soundhole its real bassy - pointing at the 12th fret works best for me, although you pick up more string "squeak" (that could be my poor technique). Too many bright small diaphragm condensers in a mix can give a really bright overall mix. Tons of stuff - recording and engineering mixes are huge subjects. But I guess a lot of it comes down to knowing how you want the finished product to sound. Nobody fusses which mains lead they use ;)
I discovered W.Edwards Deming in the 90s and applied his philosophy to my printing company.
We specialise in multi page, usually quite complicated work so a lot of processes to make the final item
His big thing was quality, killing off variability plus more here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming
If someone making a record applies just some of that then they will have it made, sooner or later, and applying constant improvement means it will approach Nirvana :)

[keiths]

Tons of stuff - recording and engineering mixes are huge subjects. But I guess a lot of it comes down to knowing how you want the finished product to sound. Nobody fusses which mains lead they use ;)

Astoria Studios (owned by David Gilmour) uses Russ Andrews supplied mains leads.

http://www.russandrews.com/article-Working-at-the-Astoria-astoria.htm

[Marco]

Tons of stuff - recording and engineering mixes are huge subjects. But I guess a lot of it comes down to knowing how you want the finished product to sound. Nobody fusses which mains lead they use...

Sure, but that doesn't automatically mean the results obtained wouldn't have been even better if 'audiophile designed' mains leads had been used instead... ;)

Did the engineers in the studios in question carry out some mains lead comparisons and decide that it wasn't worth using 'fancy ones' or did they simply dismiss such things out of hand, as they didn't believe that they would've made any difference and/or it didn't fit with their scientific sensibilities?

*That* is the question. If it was the latter then, quite simply, they'll never know whether 'fussing' over mains leads would've made a difference or not...........!

Marco.

[Canetoad]

Astoria Studios (owned by David Gilmour) uses Russ Andrews supplied mains leads.

http://www.russandrews.com/article-Working-at-the-Astoria-astoria.htm

... Because they were probably free.

[Oldpinkman]

Sure, but that doesn't automatically mean the results obtained wouldn't have been even better if 'audiophile designed' mains leads had been used instead... ;)

Did the engineers in the studios in question carry out some mains lead comparisons and decide that it wasn't worth using 'fancy ones' or did they simply dismiss such things out of hand, as they didn't believe that they would've made any difference and/or it didn't fit with their scientific sensibilities?

*That* is the question. If it was the latter then, quite simply, they'll never know whether 'fussing' over mains leads would've made a difference or not...........!

Marco.

Ok. That's fair. Although at the replay stage you can only play what they have recorded. You can't add back what they missed. I thinl my issue is the personal balance of probabilities regarding science and what I hear, which i referred to in an earlier post. I'll think my new thread is the right place to expand on that. And enjoy the posts of other contributors :)

[PaulStewart]

Nobody fusses which mains lead they use ;)

This would be interesting if correct, I have run 6 studios of which I owned 3 (I still have the latest which is two edit suites) I have always been at pains to make sure all of them had quality mains and signal leads. My current suites have mains conditioners and Van Damme signal and mic leadsleads, I've just changed the mains leads on edit one for MCRU ones and noted an improvment so edit two will be done in the New Year. OK so I'm an audiophile I grant you, so I took a quick straw poll today of my mates who still own studios. I talked to six of them and all had serious mains conditioners and UPS' on their equipment. Five of them used high quality mains leads starting with Van Damme cable and working up from there. All said that mains supply and cables made a difference to the way there equipment worked. As for signal cables all used either Van Damme or Mogami leads for signal and mics.

Also, I spoke to a designer of mains conditioners and other audio kit and was told these devices work best when coupled with good cables.

Cheers

[Oldpinkman]

I'm sorry. Sloppy english. I should have said nobody at the studios I know whichi i had previously referred to...

[Marco]

Thanks to Marco, Anthony and Glenn for recommending this latest mod, Anthony (Tube Distinctions) fitted these new caps (Obligato SCR Teflon) to my pre-amp and although the immediate differences were very obvious after a few days these are really coming in to their own. Things are just getting better and better.

That and a full set of KT120's doing their business... I can't believe how my system now sounds. It's really quite amazing.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/AOS%20system/DSC08335.jpg

Excellent stuff, Joe! :)

The SCR/Obbligato caps take AGES to burn-in, so you'll notice that the sound will continue to open up as you use the amp more. IME, the SCRs are one of the best sounding coupling capacitors available.

KT120s too, eh? Yum, yum... Now yer system's got bigger balls than a buffalo!! :eyebrows:

Also, you can't beat good old-fashioned point-to-point wiring (as beautifully shown inside your Croft) - I insist on having nothing less in my amps ;)

Marco.

[PaulStewart]

Firstly, this is not aimed at anyone or meant as a put down, it's simply a discussion of information and what i think is a viable theory on this subject. Burning in leads and the effect of mains cables, have been dismissed as at best a placebo effect (you pay £200 or even £2000 pounds for a mains cable, it's gonna sound better or you feel a fool) and at worst "absolute rubbish". This would be possible if not for the amount of INDEPENDENT empirical evidence we have heard reported here and elsewhere. The source of this evidence is from people who don't know the mains cable had a big price or had been burned in, so who are they you ask. It's peoples wives and girlfriends. How many times have people posted on this forum and others things along the lines of "Then my wife came in and said, that sounds different/better, what have you changed" Now lets be honest, most audiophiles will bend over backwards to stop the other half finding out how much the cables and other bits really cost, so in their case in won't be a placebo it will be a spontaneous actual perception.

Now burn in is an interesting subject, again we have a large amount of anecdotal, albeit empirical evidence reported from the same independent arbiters, the WAGS. How many times have people reported their partners commenting about new cables sounding "Tight" and then the sound "Opening up". So it's not just audiophiles who can hear it, our uninitiated fellow travellers can too it seems. At one point I did wonder whether the phenomena was caused by a change to the whole circuit. I.E. if we accept that capacitors, valves etc. do indeed burn in, then when we change the cable for one with different properties, did the whole "Settling down" process might have to happen again. This seemed a reasonable hypothesis until I did some tests (double blind comparisons) on cables burned in on a machine designed for the purpose, and these seemed as good as identical cable that had been burned in by regular use and better than out of the box ones, so this need more investigation.

Weighing up the arguments I think that I'm ready to postulate a theory as to why some people can't hear differences in mains cables and cable burn in. I think it's possible that some people don't want to pay out the cost of quality connectors and also don't want to accept that the world moves on and that there prized piece of kit may no longer be the zenith of excellence. Also, others with The latest kit may well not want to accept that a diamond tracing a grove at the end of a stick feeding some old school valve technology with paper cones and horns walks all over their prized computer optimised, £20ks worth of high res alleged super fi. So what happens, well I think, based on an observational methodology I grant you, that a reverse placebo effect kicks in and the brains of the nay sayers simply cannot accept that they are wrong. Also, their hearing as they get older may not be able to resolve these differences, a fallibility the brain does not want to accept. A combination of these factors, would lead to a subconscious repressive block and psychologically they really cannot hear a difference. A closed mind is a sad thing.

Cheers

[synsei]

Firstly, this is not aimed at anyone or meant as a put down, it's simply a discussion of information and what i think is a viable theory on this subject. Burning in leads and the effect of mains cables, have been dismissed as at best a placebo effect (you pay £200 or even £2000 pounds for a mains cable, it's gonna sound better or you feel a fool) and at worst "absolute rubbish". This would be possible if not for the amount of INDEPENDENT empirical evidence we have heard reported here and elsewhere. The source of this evidence is from people who don't know the mains cable had a big price or had been burned in, so who are they you ask. It's peoples wives and girlfriends. How many times have people posted on this forum and others things along the lines of "Then my wife came in and said, that sounds different/better, what have you changed" Now lets be honest, most audiophiles will bend over backwards to stop the other half finding out how much the cables and other bits really cost, so in their case in won't be a placebo it will be a spontaneous actual perception.

Now burn in is an interesting subject, again we have a large amount of anecdotal, albeit empirical evidence reported from the same independent arbiters, the WAGS. How many times have people reported their partners commenting about new cables sounding "Tight" and then the sound "Opening up". So it's not just audiophiles who can hear it, our uninitiated fellow travellers can too it seems. At one point I did wonder whether the phenomena was caused by a change to the whole circuit. I.E. if we accept that capacitors, valves etc. do indeed burn in, then when we change the cable for one with different properties, did the whole "Settling down" process might have to happen again. This seemed a reasonable hypothesis until I did some tests (double blind comparisons) on cables burned in on a machine designed for the purpose, and these seemed as good as identical cable that had been burned in by regular use and better than out of the box ones, so this need more investigation.

Weighing up the arguments I think that I'm ready to postulate a theory as to why some people can't hear differences in mains cables and cable burn in. I think it's possible that some people don't want to pay out the cost of quality connectors and also don't want to accept that the world moves on and that there prized piece of kit may no longer be the zenith of excellence. Also, others with The latest kit may well not want to accept that a diamond tracing a grove at the end of a stick feeding some old school valve technology with paper cones and horns walks all over their prized computer optimised, £20ks worth of high res alleged super fi. So what happens, well I think, based on an observational methodology I grant you, that a reverse placebo effect kicks in and the brains of the nay sayers simply cannot accept that they are wrong. Also, their hearing as they get older may not be able to resolve these differences, a fallibility the brain does not want to accept. A combination of these factors, would lead to a subconscious repressive block and psychologically they really cannot hear a difference. A closed min s a sad thing.

Cheers

Good post :clap:

[Oldpinkman]

Pauls ladt post reflects an honest consideration of the issues. On my new thread I note why I would prefer to find an answer which engineers and scientists can support and which doesn't depend on rejecting current science. I also planned to expand that to talk about the science of how we behave and how that affects how we hear.

In brief, regarding the better half, in "informal" situations like those described, subtle cues and peer pressure would possibly account for it. As social animals, normally, we tend to consensus. If I am with someone I probably go along with what they say. There is an interesting experiment which is easy to conduct. Try, consciuosly agreeing with endorsing and supporting the statements of another. They are likely to talk longer. By contrast deliberately disagree with everything and tge conversation will dry up quickly.
As I not elsewhere, the mind is a complex machine.

If cable burn in will pass a simple blind test, bob (cloth ears ) and I specified a methodology and offered £100 each to charity a few months back

[PaulStewart]

As far as methodology is concerned, I use double blind testing as defined by Angus McKenzie of Angus McKenzie Laboratories and Hi Fi News many years ago and have seen that cable burning in produced discernible differences. As the weight of empirical evidence, on this forum at least seems to be in favour of both burn in and the efficacy of specialist mains cables, I think it's up to you and the other nay sayers to prove these effects don't exist.

I've postulated a theory that reasonably covers your position, if you doubt it then do try and disprove it. However if my postulation is correct, your own brain will prevent you from being objective :lol:

Best of luck

[AlanS]

Firstly, this is not aimed at anyone or meant as a put down, it's simply a discussion of information and what i think is a viable theory on this subject. Burning in leads and the effect of mains cables, have been dismissed as at best a placebo effect (you pay £200 or even £2000 pounds for a mains cable, it's gonna sound better or you feel a fool) and at worst "absolute rubbish". This would be possible if not for the amount of INDEPENDENT empirical evidence we have heard reported here and elsewhere. The source of this evidence is from people who don't know the mains cable had a big price or had been burned in, so who are they you ask. It's peoples wives and girlfriends. How many times have people posted on this forum and others things along the lines of "Then my wife came in and said, that sounds different/better, what have you changed" Now lets be honest, most audiophiles will bend over backwards to stop the other half finding out how much the cables and other bits really cost, so in their case in won't be a placebo it will be a spontaneous actual perception.

Now burn in is an interesting subject, again we have a large amount of anecdotal, albeit empirical evidence reported from the same independent arbiters, the WAGS. How many times have people reported their partners commenting about new cables sounding "Tight" and then the sound "Opening up". So it's not just audiophiles who can hear it, our uninitiated fellow travellers can too it seems. At one point I did wonder whether the phenomena was caused by a change to the whole circuit. I.E. if we accept that capacitors, valves etc. do indeed burn in, then when we change the cable for one with different properties, did the whole "Settling down" process might have to happen again. This seemed a reasonable hypothesis until I did some tests (double blind comparisons) on cables burned in on a machine designed for the purpose, and these seemed as good as identical cable that had been burned in by regular use and better than out of the box ones, so this need more investigation.

Weighing up the arguments I think that I'm ready to postulate a theory as to why some people can't hear differences in mains cables and cable burn in. I think it's possible that some people don't want to pay out the cost of quality connectors and also don't want to accept that the world moves on and that there prized piece of kit may no longer be the zenith of excellence. Also, others with The latest kit may well not want to accept that a diamond tracing a grove at the end of a stick feeding some old school valve technology with paper cones and horns walks all over their prized computer optimised, £20ks worth of high res alleged super fi. So what happens, well I think, based on an observational methodology I grant you, that a reverse placebo effect kicks in and the brains of the nay sayers simply cannot accept that they are wrong. Also, their hearing as they get older may not be able to resolve these differences, a fallibility the brain does not want to accept. A combination of these factors, would lead to a subconscious repressive block and psychologically they really cannot hear a difference. A closed mind is a sad thing.

Cheers

Your post and its presumptive reasons why I do not hear any benefit from enhanced mains cables offends me.

Chairs.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Don't be offended.
It's just a theory, as Paul stated - he didn't insult your mother.

[PaulStewart]

Alan, as I said at the start of the post, it's not meant as a put down. It is however a researched theory that I felt needed advancing. The brain is an amazing instrument and Freud would say that in this sort of circumstance, denial will kick in and our own minds will lie to us as a defence mechanism, to protect our fragile egos, though followers of Vernon Greg or other perceptionists might not agree. I will admit my psychology studies are about 40 years out of date, but having discussed this with my other half (who has a BSc in psychology and worked on Magdi Yakoub's team at Harefield) does agree with my findings.

Many years ago when I was researching my thesis in physics with psycho acoustics, (which built in turn on research Graham Holliman had done, using his infrasonic generator), when I showed people that sounds were not in fact originating from the point in space they thought it was, they would get really quite upset, feeling I had set out to fool them, which was not the case So please believe me this not meant to insult, just to stimulate debate.

Best to all

[MartinT]

Very good posts, Paul.

[MikeMusic]

Astoria Studios (owned by David Gilmour) uses Russ Andrews supplied mains leads.

http://www.russandrews.com/article-Working-at-the-Astoria-astoria.htm

Thanks. I was trying to remember what when and where I heard that

[MikeMusic]

This would be interesting if correct, I have run 6 studios of which I owned 3 (I still have the latest which is two edit suites) I have always been at pains to make sure all of them had quality mains and signal leads. My current suites have mains conditioners and Van Damme signal and mic leadsleads, I've just changed the mains leads on edit one for MCRU ones and noted an improvment so edit two will be done in the New Year. OK so I'm an audiophile I grant you, so I took a quick straw poll today of my mates who still own studios. I talked to six of them and all had serious mains conditioners and UPS' on their equipment. Five of them used high quality mains leads starting with Van Damme cable and working up from there. All said that mains supply and cables made a difference to the way there equipment worked. As for signal cables all used either Van Damme or Mogami leads for signal and mics.

Also, I spoke to a designer of mains conditioners and other audio kit and was told these devices work best when coupled with good cables.

Cheers

Wonderful to know that is going into the beginning of the process and seems it could be common.

[MikeMusic]

Firstly, this is not aimed at anyone or meant as a put down, it's simply a discussion of information and what i think is a viable theory on this subject. Burning in leads and the effect of mains cables, have been dismissed as at best a placebo effect (you pay £200 or even £2000 pounds for a mains cable, it's gonna sound better or you feel a fool) and at worst "absolute rubbish". This would be possible if not for the amount of INDEPENDENT empirical evidence we have heard reported here and elsewhere. The source of this evidence is from people who don't know the mains cable had a big price or had been burned in, so who are they you ask. It's peoples wives and girlfriends. How many times have people posted on this forum and others things along the lines of "Then my wife came in and said, that sounds different/better, what have you changed" Now lets be honest, most audiophiles will bend over backwards to stop the other half finding out how much the cables and other bits really cost, so in their case in won't be a placebo it will be a spontaneous actual perception.

Now burn in is an interesting subject, again we have a large amount of anecdotal, albeit empirical evidence reported from the same independent arbiters, the WAGS. How many times have people reported their partners commenting about new cables sounding "Tight" and then the sound "Opening up". So it's not just audiophiles who can hear it, our uninitiated fellow travellers can too it seems. At one point I did wonder whether the phenomena was caused by a change to the whole circuit. I.E. if we accept that capacitors, valves etc. do indeed burn in, then when we change the cable for one with different properties, did the whole "Settling down" process might have to happen again. This seemed a reasonable hypothesis until I did some tests (double blind comparisons) on cables burned in on a machine designed for the purpose, and these seemed as good as identical cable that had been burned in by regular use and better than out of the box ones, so this need more investigation.

Weighing up the arguments I think that I'm ready to postulate a theory as to why some people can't hear differences in mains cables and cable burn in. I think it's possible that some people don't want to pay out the cost of quality connectors and also don't want to accept that the world moves on and that there prized piece of kit may no longer be the zenith of excellence. Also, others with The latest kit may well not want to accept that a diamond tracing a grove at the end of a stick feeding some old school valve technology with paper cones and horns walks all over their prized computer optimised, £20ks worth of high res alleged super fi. So what happens, well I think, based on an observational methodology I grant you, that a reverse placebo effect kicks in and the brains of the nay sayers simply cannot accept that they are wrong. Also, their hearing as they get older may not be able to resolve these differences, a fallibility the brain does not want to accept. A combination of these factors, would lead to a subconscious repressive block and psychologically they really cannot hear a difference. A closed mind is a sad thing.

Cheers

+1, 100%

[Oldpinkman]

Very good posts, Paul.

Agreed. Excellent posts Paul. Good to see someone else enjoying the science of the mind. I can quite see the logic of your argument that perceptions and preconditions determine what we allow ourselves to hear. Personally, I have attributed my affliction to the pressure of blind testing when working in HiFi. Interesting - but stressful I found it. And it made me conscious of how often I thought I heard something I couldn't repeatably demonstrate. (I got suckered 2 weeks ago down in Newhaven - or rather suckered myself - in the early rounds). I too am a little rusty on psychology (over 30 years ago) but my stepson did AS last year and is doing A level this year, and so far I have winged it on the homework help.

I understand your reasoning for putting the emphasis on myself and others unable to hear the differences, given as you note, the significant body of reported experiences from varied individuals of the phenomena. (I would note, that of itself, lots of people hearing and reporting it is not persuasive - 40% believe the moon landings faked, The "linn chip" phenomena dominated British HiFi for many years, and mass psychology is the essence of the "Emperors New Clothes" mythology)

However - there is a greater problem I have highlighted before. I can't PROVE to you that I can't hear it. I can't even prove it to me. I can, and am prepared to state that I can't, and participate in a further test to see if I can't, and go on record as acknowledging my failure. I would be happy to endorse an initial hypothesis of the reason that someone such as yourself can hear such effects, and I can't, may be due to some facet of the brain controlling what I "hear" based on what I expect. I can see that any blind testing I might do, would be blind regarding whether a cable was burned in or not, but "sighted" that the test was about cable burn-in - and that therefore my brain might switch me to ignore differences I did physically hear. But if I tell you I hear no difference, there is no good scientific way to establish that is true and not me "cheating" because I know its a test about cable burnin.

Accordingly - I have to toss the ball back into your court. The only proof available is for those who can hear the differences to demonstrate that ability in a sufficiently controlled test for it to be persuasive. It needs a volunteer with "the gift". And you seem to be particularly well placed. You have the ability to hear the differences in blind tests. You have extensive industry contacts and connections, who could presumably either lend cable for the tests as vendors (who must surely benefit from the publicity) or allow you to pretest cable they are about to buy anyway in some volume. The results of the test would be of great interest on this forum, and i imagine to your extensive readership on Musicosis. I would have thought it would make good TV too on the HiFi series you mentioned. Whilst I imagine their budgets are modest, they would probably run to a few cables. And - with suitable industry contacts - we only really need to "rent" the cables. They could be returned in "as new" (although burned in) condition.

Here is the test I propose. You select a suitable cable - available in sufficient quantities at an affordable budget, and one you are fully confident you can reliably hear burn-in on repeatably. You obtain 10 new "virgin" sets of the cable and send it to the "burner" with unambiguous instructions as to the burn in process to be performed. I would be happy to volunteer for the job, but equally understand if we nominate someone we are both happy is independant (for me Barry, Geoff, Jez, Mark all immediately spring to mind). The "burner" then writes the numbers 1 to 10 on a piece of paper and rolls a dice 10 times to cover a roll distance of at least half a meter. If the dice is an odd number he writes "burn" against that number, and if an even number he writes "no burn". He then burns, or not, as directed by the throw of the dice in the manner you prescribe, and sends all 10 cables to you - numbered 1 to 10. You then listen to the cables, identify which ones are burned in and which not, and publish your results. After which the burner publishes the "reference" list and we can all examine the results and see if we consider them conclusive. This would both demonstrate there was a difference, and that you can identify and prefer the burned in version to the raw version (ie it IS burn IN and not burn OUT)

In the meantime, I am building up to my "left brain / right brain" fun on the other thread. Please don't "blow the punch line" but otherwise join in with anything "quite interesting" on the subject.

For the record, I don't want to get into a "my dad's richer than your dad" debate, but, acknowledging my defective hearing is my own, my science comes from my chums at PT, and in particular one who was part of Professor Malcolm Hawksfords team at Essex University. As I'm sure you know, but others may not, Professor Hawksford headed probably the leading UK academic department for research into audio - almost the senior British academic "HiFi" chair, and carried out research, and published papers on cables in audio and hifi use.

I think it would be an excellent service if you could arrange a demonstration of the phenomena as outlined above - and would doubtless prove an important driver for the likes of Professor Hawksford to carry out further research to attempt to explain how the phenomena might arise, and describe a theory that allows the burn-in effect to be measured or calculated. :cool:

[synsei]

I admire your dedication to the cause Richard however your signature would suggest a different agenda to that which you claim. Apart from this I applaud your continuing quest to discover why you cannot hear what so many of us have experienced. For me personally I am totally non-plussed as to whether there is a scientific basis behind the phenomenon, or even whether it is physical or psychological in nature. For me my experiences speak for themselves although I admit to some curiosity about the subject. If Paul should take up your proposal I look forward to reading his conclusions ;)

[Oldpinkman]

I admire your dedication to the cause Richard however your signature would suggest a different agenda to that which you claim. Apart from this I applaud your continuing quest to discover why you cannot hear what so many of us have experienced. For me personally I am totally non-plussed as to whether there is a scientific basis behind the phenomenon, or even whether it is physical or psychological in nature. For me my experiences speak for themselves although I admit to some curiosity about the subject. If Paul should take up your proposal I look forward to reading his conclusions ;)

For the record, my signature is a direct quote about Barack Obama and the US debt fiasco - a particular interest of mine ;)

[Oldpinkman]

I admire your dedication to the cause Richard however your signature would suggest a different agenda to that which you claim. Apart from this I applaud your continuing quest to discover why you cannot hear what so many of us have experienced. For me personally I am totally non-plussed as to whether there is a scientific basis behind the phenomenon, or even whether it is physical or psychological in nature. For me my experiences speak for themselves although I admit to some curiosity about the subject. If Paul should take up your proposal I look forward to reading his conclusions ;)

And if that were a suggestion that I am out to debunk con-men Dave, it would apply to mains leads, but not burn-in. Hence my choice of burn-in for the test. What is the scam in claiming burn-in? It either happens or it doesn't. Nobody makes any money out of it (routinely - I am aware there are burn-in services, but Paul is the first person I have yet encountered to have used one). Most people burn-in anyway for free and for no possible profit for any possible conman.

You know the saying - "just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean the bastards aren't out to get you" ;) Sometimes these things are just because they are "quite interesting" or because those of us afflicted with the science bug like to test and prove :cool:

[synsei]

For the record, my signature is a direct quote about Barack Obama and the US debt fiasco - a particular interest of mine ;)

Ah, then my apologies mon frere :)

[Marco]

In brief, regarding the better half, in "informal" situations like those described, subtle cues and peer pressure would possibly account for it. As social animals, normally, we tend to consensus. If I am with someone I probably go along with what they say.


Not if the remarks from one's wife or partner, as to the sonic improvement that they perceive, due to an (unknown to them) change to the system, are totally unprompted. That's what I think Paul was saying.

Like Paul, my wife has also commented along the lines of: 'that sounds better, what have you done?', without having the slightest clue as to what changes I've made or my endorsement of an improvement. I've just stuck some music on, usually stuff she also likes and knows intimately, and thus readily identifies the change in sound.

Therefore, I trust her ears as much as, or even more than mine, as there's a good chance that if she hears an improvement, completely unprompted (and without the baggage of 'audiophilia'), it's real. Some of the improvements she's identified in that respect were solely as a result of changing mains cables.

Marco.

P.S Superb posts, Paul - they are a true credit to the lateral thinking and open-mindedness we promote on AoS! :clap:

[synsei]

Not if the remarks from one's wife or partner, as to the sonic improvement that they perceive, due to an (unknown to them) change to the system, are totally unprompted. That's what I think Paul was saying.

Like Paul, my wife has also commented along the lines of: 'that sounds better, what have you done?', without having the slightest clue as to what changes I've made or my endorsement of an improvement. I've just stuck some music on, usually stuff she also likes and knows intimately, and thus readily identifies the change in sound.

Therefore, I trust her ears as much as, or even more than mine, as there's a good chance that if she hears an improvement, completely unprompted (and without the baggage of being an 'audiophile'), it's real. Some of the improvements she's identified in that respect were solely as a result of changing mains cables.

Marco.

P.S Superb posts, Paul - they are a true credit to the lateral thinking and open-mindedness we promote on AoS! :clap:

This is my experience too Marco, in fact I highly value Jo's comments as they are made from a less anal perspective :lol:

[YNWaN]

Ah, then my apologies mon frere :)

I don't think you have anything to apologise for - it's hardly surprising if a 'signature' on a hi-fi forum is taken within the context of that forum - in fact, it would be very odd if one were expected to realise that it actually related to some political debacle!
-----
As to the comments made by 'other halves', perhaps they know that their loved one is prone to a bit of 'hi-fi fiddling' and the occasional positive word does wonders.... ;)

[Marco]

As to the comments made by 'other halves', perhaps they know that their loved one is prone to a bit of 'hi-fi fiddling' and the occasional positive word does wonders.... ;)

Yup, I'm sure that happens sometimes, but in the instances I've referred to, the comments were completely spontaneous.

Marco.

[AlanS]

I have never become aware of burnin in any part of my system thats not to say it hasn't happened.

[MikeMusic]

I have never become aware of burnin in any part of my system thats not to say it hasn't happened.
Most (all ?) of mine are not scientific

The one that might get a few here going is after we moved back into the refurbed house.
Brand new electrics throughout
Slightly disappointing sound quality after the move. Totally different room and acoustics so I put it down to that
After a few weeks it got better. No upgrades to the kit
Well that's either me or the mains burning in........

[Gordon Steadman]

I was too busy listening to the music to notice so you never know it could/might have happened. I reserve judgement however:lol:

[MikeMusic]

I was too busy listening to the music to notice so you never know it could/might have happened. I reserve judgement however:lol:

And I can't prove it
:)