View Full Version : Wow ! That's a big one......
Spectral Morn
05-06-2009, 15:07
Hi Guys
Slightly shorter write up than usual (there is only so much you can write about this topic), but as the description of SOG includes more or less what has happened I thought this item should go hear.
As many no doubt are aware, I recently did a write up on the Leak Trough-Line FM tuner ( see Link 1 & 2 below) and one of the key aspects of any tuners performance is the aerial its connected to. Well I have been using an Antiference Omni aerial for many years both where I live now and when I lived with my parents. It works well with modern tuners such as my Revox 260-S (which has excellent sensitivity and selectivity) but it is not as good with vintage tuners such as the Leaks I use. In order to improve things a bit I added an FM amplifier to the aerial and while this works well it did on occasion mean I had to go upstairs to switch it on and switch it off (going upstairs while not hard for Dalek's , is a bit of a drain on the power reserves ;):lol:).
The partially assembled FM aerial
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/Aquapiranhavisit014.jpg
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/Aquapiranhavisit015.jpg
Steve (Aquapiranha) came to my rescue with an unwanted Yagi based Antiference aerial a 5 element design with good pick up ability and well up to feeding a vintage Leak quality signals to reproduce. As you will also have read Steve (Aquapiranha) came to visit recently (see Link 3) and just before he came over he posted the aerial which arrived on the day he called in for a listening session.
With the weather being slightly cooler today I decided to fit it in my cramped loft (installing any aerial in a roof-space is not ideal as you will loose some of the aerial's signal strength). Having no real choice about this into the loft it went.
The existing Omni FM aerial and Anti-ghosting TV aerial in the roof-space.
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/Aquapiranhavisit016.jpg
This aerial is big with a very long, over 2m length and elements that are about 1m long, and there are 5 of those. I had an idea whee I wanted to put this aerial but after having a quick look in the crowded roof-space I had to abandon the first location and put it near the TV and original FM aerial.
Now where am I going to put this ?:doh::scratch:
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/Aquapiranhavisit017.jpg
After a lot of difficult and having to move some empty Hi-Fi boxes (a large percentage of the roof-space is full of such boxes :doh::lol:) and settled on a position and built it. While not ideal the aerial rests on some boxes and starts just behind the Anti-ghosting TV aerial and the original Omni unit (thankfully this close proximity has not caused any problems among the aerials :))
Its big !
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/Aquapiranhavisit018.jpg
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/Aquapiranhavisit019.jpg
Fitting the co-ax cable was easy...however I had to use a connecting cable and good quality coupler, as the original co-ax used was just enough to reach the old aerial's mounting position. After making the connection I went downstairs to see what the signal strength was like on the Leak tuner....excellent slightly more than had been the case with the combination of the old Omni and the FM amplifier.
It was however obvious that the fit of the Belling-Lee connector was not as tight on the old co-ax cable so I decided to solder the plug on. Very fiddly in the roof-space and it took a few attempts to get a really solid solder joint. I checked on the Leak tuner and I gained a little bit more signal...so it was worth the hassle and sweat (Dalek's do sweat by the way).
What it was all for
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/Aquapiranhavisit.jpg
If I were doing this from scratch and not using pre-existing cable I would buy a drum of the best low loss co-ax I could get, and make sure there were as few breaks/connections in the cables length as I could do. However as some of the cable in my home goes under floors, and behind heavy furniture I will have to work with what I have, but its not ideal.
So well worth doing, and really an absolute if you want to get the best from any tuner but particularly any vintage ones.
Thank you for the aerial Steve, you and others who have been generous and helpful to me recently are very much what this community (Art of Sound) is all about....its a great place but only because its members are too.
Link 1 History of Leak Trough-Line tuners http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2837
Link 2 Review of sound quality of Leak Trough-Line tuners http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2883)
Link 3 Steve's visit http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2933
Regards D S D L
Edit No part of this review can be reproduced without written permission...content is copyrighted to ...NK
aquapiranha
05-06-2009, 15:38
Neil I am glad you managed to fit it into the loft with not too many problems! I think a good tuner deserves nothing less than the best signal you are able to give it, and I am glad you are able to make better use of it than I was.
I hope it rpovides you with years of good service.
:)
Spectral Morn
05-06-2009, 15:44
Neil I am glad you managed to fit it into the loft with not too many problems! I think a good tuner deserves nothing less than the best signal you are able to give it, and I am glad you are able to make better use of it than I was.
I hope it provides you with years of good service.
:)
Once again Steve thank you very much for your generosity. Yes despite DAB...FM switch off, if ever ? Please never....it is worth fitting a great aerial to get the best signal and sound from your tuner.
Regards D S D L
Hi Neil,
First of all let me say that your excellent SoG piece on the Leak tuner has cost me some money!
After reading it I realised I missed the Leak Troughline Stereo tuner I used to have (not the Troughline III, that I stated) and based on your enthusiasm, as well as that of half of the staff of Hi-Fi World magazine, I have bought a replacement. Will report on it's performance when it arrives, but from memory I expect it to be better, musically, than the Quad FM3 that I have used and enjoyed for the last 30 years.
Anyway, I am pleased to see that you are investing in a better aerial. Your Antiference Omni has remarkably good sensitivity and bandwidth, considering the deliberate lack of directionality. It's a sad fact that with aerials (not antennas - let's be British about this), sensitivity and directionality are more or less mutually exclusive. Think about it, if the dipole of the Antiference aerial was curved any more, the folded ends would be almost touching and their mutual interference would cause the sensitivity to plummet. It's to the credit of the designers of the Antiference Omni that it works as well as it does.
I use a humble external 3 element Yagi mounted on the chimney stack. I don't know how good reception is where you live, but for me, living about 35 miles from London, I am able to easily pick up a dozen or so stations, some only intended to be received within a ten mile or so radius. This doesn't really interest me, as all I ever listen to are Radio 3 and 4 (and sometimes Radio 2), but it does demonstrate the advantage of roof mounting.
The best place for the any aerial booster amp is as close to the aerial as possible. I can't see how your aerial splitter is installed - wouldn't use it to 'combine' TV and radio aerials, keep them separate if you can.
There is no real need to solder Belling and Lee connectors, although this is probably ideal, if you 'kink' the inner core of the coaxial cable, then this will allow it to make a sufficiently good connection with the tubular inner 'pin' of the plug.
Looks like you're going to get the best out of your Leak. Good news!
Oh! and by the way, I agree with you DAB sucks; maybe OK for the little portable radio in the kitchen, but hopeless for serious listening.
Regards
Barry
Spectral Morn
05-06-2009, 16:29
Hi Barry
The FM aerial cable is kept separate from the TV one, and is not split. The TV cable is split to provide for the master bedroom directly below and the living room. The FM booster is fairly close to the aerial as it is in the master bedroom below....however with this new aerial it should not be needed. I will leave it in position though just in case.
Mounting in the roof-space looses me some signal strength, but I don't want anything mounted on the chimney; and the layout of the house makes it messy to mount it anywhere else..plus the idea of a cable running across the roof tiles ERRRRRRRRRRRr. What kind of quality installer would do that ;) lots...lazy sods.
Unlike London there are not many radio stations here...if you want choice Sky digital is the best option but the sound even through a good DAC is not that good. The Leaks are the Kings. There are enough stations, however to keep me happy.
Sorry to hear I have cost you money :doh:;) It will be worth it though.:)
Regards D S D L
..........
Sorry to hear I have cost you money :doh:;) It will be worth it though.:)
Regards D S D L
Trust you didn't take this as a complaint - judging from the smilies I don't think you did. :eyebrows:. I had been on the lookout for one for a while now, your article clinched it and I bought one today. Perhaps I ought to learn to become more versatile with the use of smilies. :wave:
Barry
Spectral Morn
05-06-2009, 17:14
Trust you didn't take this as a complaint - judging from the smilies I don't think you did. :eyebrows:. I had been on the lookout for one for a while now, your article clinched it and I bought one today. Perhaps I ought to learn to become more versatile with the use of smilies. :wave:
Barry
No certainly not.... I hope you enjoy it very much. What version did you buy ?
Regards D S D L
The Grand Wazoo
06-06-2009, 22:58
Barry,
I'm sure you'll find a Troughline to be an improvement on your Quad (though, there is something about those Quads!). It's good that you're able to latch on to a decent transmitter, because the Leaks need a strong signal.
Beechwoods
07-06-2009, 06:54
I'd be interesting to hear a comparison of the Leak v Quad - and if anyone wants to borrow my Sugden R21 to do a 3 way comparison via the same aerial and amplification chain I'd be happy to box it up!
I've been meaning to get an external FM aerial done here. When we got the TV aerial installed it was going to be an extra £150 to get an FM one up there too, and at the time we were severely stretched (loft conversion & extension at the time time :doh:) so the FM aerial had to wait. I don't listen to or record enough radio at the moment to make it worthwhile. But a proper aerial is essential if you want anywhere approaching acceptable FM reproduction anywhere other than the car!
Spectral Morn
07-06-2009, 10:29
I'd be interesting to hear a comparison of the Leak v Quad - and if anyone wants to borrow my Sugden R21 to do a 3 way comparison via the same aerial and amplification chain I'd be happy to box it up!
I've been meaning to get an external FM aerial done here. When we got the TV aerial installed it was going to be an extra £150 to get an FM one up there too, and at the time we were severely stretched (loft conversion & extension at the time time :doh:) so the FM aerial had to wait. I don't listen to or record enough radio at the moment to make it worthwhile. But a proper aerial is essential if you want anywhere approaching acceptable FM reproduction anywhere other than the car!
Such a comparative review would be well worth doing, but alas I don't have a Quad (otherwise I would have loved to do it) and shipping kit about the country...especially with vintage kit is asking for it a bit IMHO (even when well packed). Find someone local to you Nick with the Quad/Leak tuners....maybe another AOS member fancies having ago....I am sure someone here has the other two tuners. Consider this a commissioned review idea, so who would like to step up to the plate and have ago....? Ummmmmmm BARRY could it be you sir;):)
Fitting a good aerial is absolutely vital for best performance and sound.....way to many don't use the best or ideal partnering aerial for their tuner (I was in that boat until I got Steve's unused aerial). One of the reasons for doing this write up was to encourage the getting of suitable aerials....or at the very least make readers think about getting one. Fm has years in it yet so the investment is not short term.
Regards D S D L
When I lived and worked in the West End, West Herts and Luton area we had no problem - RON SMITH every time..
Now we're in Suffolk on the coast, we're "on the fringe" of almost everything. The ancient simple FM aerial we have on the chimney-stack suffices and gives a good enough signal to the Quads, as well as the T55 and Delta 80. This latter tuner sounded clear by spatially flat into the AVI's 20K load (the CD player and Cambridge don't, so please don't blame the preamp) but into the Croft's 100K or thereabouts it sounds very much better, although my current system hates compression in the source.......
Such a comparative review would be well worth doing, but alas I don't have a Quad (otherwise I would have loved to do it) and shipping kit about the country...especially with vintage kit is asking for it a bit IMHO (even when well packed). Find someone local to you Nick with the Quad/Leak tuners....maybe another AOS member fancies having ago....I am sure someone here has the other two tuners. Consider this a commissioned review idea, so who would like to step up to the plate and have ago....? Ummmmmmm BARRY could it be you sir;):)
Regards D S D L
Hi Neil,
To answer your first question, the version I bought is the Troughline Stereo, which is an exact replacement for the one I used to have. The replacement is in much better cosmetic condition, with the lettering of the legends intact and comes with a (teak?) wooden sleeve; my previous one had a blue-grey metal sleeve.
I fully intend to do a comparison with the Quad FM3, but I will need to take a little time to sort out the interconnects and the like. My first priority will be to see if the internal stereo decoder (which uses germanium transistors!) can be improved. To that end I may knock up a decoder using the National Semiconductors chip. But I am trying to run before I can walk here.
I did intend to do a wider comparison of 'classic' tuners (a sort of 'Flight of Tuners 2'), in fact I recently put a bid on eBay for a Radford FMT-2, but it went for silly money (well silly to my mind for a solid state design). So, yes, I would be willing to write such a piece, and if Nick is willing to loan me his Sugden then I could include that. From memory the Sugden was always well regarded.
If you would like me to undertake the comparision and report on my findings, then please bear in mind that it will take some time for two reasons: first I have already commited myself to writing a couple of lengthy pieces for you; and second the very nature of doing such a comparison means I would need to spend a few days with each tuner. So if you can wait, then I would be interested and willing to do this.
Regards
Barry
Barry,
I'm sure you'll find a Troughline to be an improvement on your Quad (though, there is something about those Quads!). It's good that you're able to latch on to a decent transmitter, because the Leaks need a strong signal.
Hi Chris
I was given a Troughline Stereo about 15 years ago. Based on a brief listen against the Quad, the Leak seemed to be warmer and more open. I didn't spend any time assessing the sensitivity or selectivity at the time, as I almost immediately loaned it to a friend to use. It was then later loaned to another friend and then was lost, for reasons which I briefly mentioned in a post in your thread on tuners. Because of that, I have been on the lookout for a sample in good condition, or at least in better condition than my original, and at a reasonable price ever since.
I am however very fond of my Quad - it has served me very well and provided enormous enjoyment. Like you, there is music playing in the house during most of the waking hours. The tuner is used for up to three or four hours a day, every day, for about ten months in the year. It has done this for thirty years, with only one major and one minor fault occuring in all that time: six years ago a transistor had to be replaced in the stereo decoder section, and about three months ago the bulb that illuminates the tuning scale went; a quick bit of e-commerce with Maplin had the scale illuminated again two days later. For that reason, I would give the Quad an honourable retirement; most likely I will partner it with the 33/303 I use with the TV in the spare room.
Regards
Barry
Spectral Morn
07-06-2009, 17:37
Hi Neil,
To answer your first question, the version I bought is the Troughline Stereo, which is an exact replacement for the one I used to have. The replacement is in much better cosmetic condition, with the lettering of the legends intact and comes with a (teak?) wooden sleeve; my previous one had a blue-grey metal sleeve.
I fully intend to do a comparison with the Quad FM3, but I will need to take a little time to sort out the interconnects and the like. My first priority will be to see if the internal stereo decoder (which uses germanium transistors!) can be improved. To that end I may knock up a decoder using the National Semiconductors chip. But I am trying to run before I can walk here.
I did intend to do a wider comparison of 'classic' tuners (a sort of 'Flight of Tuners 2'), in fact I recently put a bid on eBay for a Radford FMT-2, but it went for silly money (well silly to my mind for a solid state design). So, yes, I would be willing to write such a piece, and if Nick is willing to loan me his Sugden then I could include that. From memory the Sugden was always well regarded.
If you would like me to undertake the comparision and report on my findings, then please bear in mind that it will take some time for two reasons: first I have already commited myself to writing a couple of lengthy pieces for you; and second the very nature of doing such a comparison means I would need to spend a few days with each tuner. So if you can wait, then I would be interested and willing to do this.
Regards
Barry
Excellent Barry...sorry to keep asking (picking on you;):lol:), but I thought you would be up for the task/review....Flock of Tuners 2 sounds good to me. I know I have already commissioned some other items from you, so no rush when you can.
Replacing the decoder does improve things quite a bit. I have a gray metal sleeve for a Trough-Line Stereo, its nice to know about any other bits that were options for these. PM Nick about the Sugden....
I would love to have been able to do this but as you are on the mainland it will be easier (cheaper)than if I were to.
Regards D S D L
Excellent Barry...sorry to keep asking (picking on you;):lol:), but I thought you would be up for the task/review....Flock of Tuners 2 sounds good to me. I know I have already commissioned some other items from you, so no rush when you can.
Replacing the decoder does improve things quite a bit. I have a gray metal sleeve for a Trough-Line Stereo, its nice to know about any other bits that were options for these. PM Nick about the Sugden....
I would love to have been able to do this but as you are on the mainland it will be easier (cheaper)than if I were to.
Regards D S D L
What are the posal rates to New Skaro?
If you can wait about a month, I may be able to persuade a friend of mine to loan me his Quad FM2 (the valved predecessor to the FM3). He doesn't use it, and although I would be making additional work for myself, it could make for an interesting comparison and a fuller report. Anyway it will give me a chance to fulfil one of my obligations.
Regards
Barry
Spectral Morn
07-06-2009, 23:23
What are the postal rates to New Skaro?
If you can wait about a month, I may be able to persuade a friend of mine to loan me his Quad FM2 (the valved predecessor to the FM3). He doesn't use it, and although I would be making additional work for myself, it could make for an interesting comparison and a fuller report. Anyway it will give me a chance to fulfil one of my obligations.
Regards
Barry
Considering the cost of getting Tuners to me and then back safely plus insurance too....this just would be to much of a drain on my zero income state at the minute.
Anyway I have full confidence in your ability to do a great job, and I look forward to your write up when you get round to getting all the elements together.
Regards D S D L
Considering the cost of getting Tuners to me and then back safely plus insurance too....this just would be to much of a drain on my zero income state at the minute.
Regards D S D L
Hi Neil,
I trust you didn't think I was having a 'go' at you. It was meant to be a joke. I am aware of your, hopefully temporary, situation; in retrospect it was probably not that funny.
I should have followed it with the question: 'How do Daleks shake hands with their sink plunger?'
No offense was intended and apologies if any was taken. I really must learn to use appropriate smileys.:o
Barry
Spectral Morn
08-06-2009, 08:59
Hi Neil,
I trust you didn't think I was having a 'go' at you. It was meant to be a joke. I am aware of your, hopefully temporary, situation; in retrospect it was probably not that funny.
I should have followed it with the question: 'How do Daleks shake hands with their sink plunger?'
No offense was intended and apologies if any was taken. I really must learn to use appropriate smileys.:o
Barry
No offense was caused...I just felt that an explanation was needed for those who dip into the forum irregularly who are not aware of my current situation....and might have wondered what the difficulty was.
Don't worry about it Barry....no harm or problem caused.
Regards D S D L:)
Barry, it may be worth Googling on FM3 mods. Depending on the tuner's vintage (there was a fairly major revision to the decoding circuit at around #5000 as I recall), there are some caps that can be usefully changed - three supply ones for larger values and at least five around the decoder and audio output coupling. This makes a subtle but beneficial difference to the sound
. I have to get my FM3 out and remind myself what these caps are - I've just found a couple of spare 3300uF 25V caps you could usefully put in the supply feed under the mains transformer (I had to buy five)
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6722/quadfm3doc.html
The recommendation of C100 and C104 is a thorny one though. I was urged to retain the original value and just replace these with modern ones, but having done the mod exactly as described, I felt it sounded better (I did as I was told in the end), but the important ones not mentioned are the audio output coupling caps (I'll find the numbers).
Suitably serviced, the FM3 still sounds a touch "dry" but I thought the clarity was better and if it's feeding a high impedance pre as recommended (50K at least), you should get a pretty truthful reproduction (I still find the FM2 too soggy and soft, but I'm told it's the stereo decoder at fault).
No offense was caused...I just felt that an explanation was needed for those who dip into the forum irregularly who are not aware of my current situation....and might have wondered what the difficulty was.
Don't worry about it Barry....no harm or problem caused.
Regards D S D L:)
Phew! - that's alright then.
Been cleaning up the Troughline today. I gave the wooden case a good polish with some beeswax polish. Sad but true! - anyway the old girl scrubs up well. Will put her through the paces tomorrow.
Barry
Barry, it may be worth Googling on FM3 mods. Depending on the tuner's vintage (there was a fairly major revision to the decoding circuit at around #5000 as I recall), there are some caps that can be usefully changed - three supply ones for larger values and at least five around the decoder and audio output coupling. This makes a subtle but beneficial difference to the sound
. I have to get my FM3 out and remind myself what these caps are - I've just found a couple of spare 3300uF 25V caps you could usefully put in the supply feed under the mains transformer (I had to buy five)
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6722/quadfm3doc.html
The recommendation of C100 and C104 is a thorny one though. I was urged to retain the original value and just replace these with modern ones, but having done the mod exactly as described, I felt it sounded better (I did as I was told in the end), but the important ones not mentioned are the audio output coupling caps (I'll find the numbers).
Suitably serviced, the FM3 still sounds a touch "dry" but I thought the clarity was better and if it's feeding a high impedance pre as recommended (50K at least), you should get a pretty truthful reproduction (I still find the FM2 too soggy and soft, but I'm told it's the stereo decoder at fault).
Hello Dave
Thanks for the link. My FM3 has s/n < 5000, so the revision you mention could be applied. When I get the Troughline up and running, I will have a chance to 'mod the Quad'.
The idea of possibly including an FM2 in the comparison was simply to try another valve tuner. Many years ago I had a Quad valve set (kept as a back up to my s-s gear): 22 preamp, 2 x Quad II monoblocks with the FM1 and AM1 tuners. The FM1 used a little regarded stereo decoder sitting 'piggyback' on the tuner. The FM2 is, I think, simply a re-packaging of the FM1 in a new case with integral power supply and decoder. It is not yet certain if I can borrow the FM2, but if I can, it will be interesting to hear it again.
Regards
Barry
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