Phono Stage recommendations please.

[Clive197]

I have for the last few years run a Trichord Dino MkII/Dino+PSU combined with Trichords High Performance Power Cable between the two. This is an excellent solution and I am very pleased with the results I get but I am now hankering for an improvement.
I have already been recommended the Rega Aria, WheastTwo and Sugden A21SE Phono but feel that they all would be a sideways move. All three have different sound signatures but I am not sure they are actually an improvement.
I don't want to just to go out and buy a phono stage without knowing that I would be gaining a significant improvement. The Trichord Dino is very well respected and it maybe difficult to upgrade without spending a large pot of money which I simply don't have.

Clive

[Oldpinkman]

I don't know any of those phono stages I'm afraid. I'm from the days when record players were normal, and preamplifiers dealt with them. However, I got to play with Firebottles valve phono stage (moving coil) version, and found it gave a great sound which I would have thought tough to beat except by the very best stages for serious money. That particular version is with Ali Tait atm, but Alan I think allows it out on approval on the basis that you post it on to the next in the chain after trying it. If the money isn't burning a hole in your pocket, it has to be worth a try.

Failing that, if you want the very best, its a long wait for me to persuade OJ to get Pips into production again...:(

[YNWaN]

You don't have to wait on the off chance that a long discontinued product will be re-manufactured as the best already exists.

However, it is true that a lot of phono stages are much of a muchness and really exist at much the same quality level but with emphasis on different aspects of reproduction.

[Firebottle]

Don't quite understand the "different aspects of reproduction" :scratch:

Accuracy and clarity come to mind and surely all designs strive for this?

:cool: Alan

[Ali Tait]

Just buy one of Alan's (Firebottle) stages. You will not better it except by spending serious money. It's a stonking bargain at the price.

[Arkless Electronics]

May I humbly suggest that the unit I make could be your answer... All who have compared it to the Dino have found it a major upgrade and the comparisons have so far been against the standard version (£160).... There is a more upmarket version which has been dubbed the "Turbo" version which is better still and still only £330 (plus a donor unit of course). Look up reviews on the Arkless 640P and turbo version to see for yourself ;)

[Gordon Steadman]

but with emphasis on different aspects of reproduction.
Hmmm...............like Alan, I find this a very strange statement. Surely there is only one aspect if its reproduction you are after. Anything else ain't a reproduction, its an original.

[Oldpinkman]

Hmmm...............like Alan, I find this a very strange statement. Surely there is only one aspect if its reproduction you are after. Anything else ain't a reproduction, its an original.

I think everyone has pulled half of Marks comment out of context with the whole. Many phono stages (ordinary ones, Nad 3020, AR60, Quad 44 etc) are not obviously better than each other, and obviously NOT as satisfying as the very very best. They are not all the same, and hence have "different aspects" (I find the Quad accurate but dull, the Nad "warm" but muffled etc). I'm not sure I could pick one as better than another.

Taking the Firebottle it is a good bit better than all of those "same, but different" ordinary stages. It has much more "life" than the Quad, and better "space". It assuredly won't be caught yawning. It has no obvious weaknesses - its not harsh, or bright, or thin, and it reveals a lot of detail.

Until you have heard something significantly better, it is extremely good. But you recognise the oddity of the statement. I can't "fault" the Firebottle. Unless I contrast it with amps which do things better. But it is assuredly not one of those "same but different" "normal" phono stages, like the Quad 44 et al.

I bet I'm gonna regret posting this...:doh:

[Gordon Steadman]

I bet I'm gonna regret posting this...:doh:

Why's that then?? I thought you liked 'discussion'

All the pre-amps you mention were, presumably, all trying to achieve the same thing - accurate reproduction of the real thing. This isn't a different aspect, its failure, if we agree with your findings of course.:eyebrows:

[Gordon Steadman]

I've heard a couple of Alan's phono stages and can confirm their sonic properties are certainly up there with the best I have heard.

Sort of changing the subject as it fits somewhere between analogue and digital, I am sitting listening to the Pioneer TT, Creek phono into the little Behringer DAC being recorded into Audacity on the Mac!! On Sennheisers and an old Rogers Ravensbrook.

I sounds bloody fantastic!! Totally undigital and it sounds like music to me.

I reckon all this obsessing over minutiae actually takes away from the enjoyment of the music. Get the basics right, sit back and enjoy what its all supposed to be about.

Discuss:eyebrows:

[PaulStewart]

Hi Clive,

I've not heard the Arkless or the Firebottle units, (I'd be happy to review both for Musicosis BTW). I have heard the Dino with the PSU and found it to be a good phono stage but not the ultimate. I note from your signature you use a Cadenza MC, so if you went for the Firebottle you would have to price in an SUT as well. Not too long ago I reviewed the Longdog Audio MCJ2, I found this to be natural yet detailed, lucid and musical with great dynamics. At the price I rate it very highly and prefer it to most I've heard, including the Tricord set up. it's well worth a listen. If you want to read the review, you can find it HERE (http://www.musicosis.co.uk/?p=1214)

Cheers

[Ali Tait]

Nope, Alan does an MC stage also.

Agreed, Nick's is very good indeed.

[Oldpinkman]

Alans mc /mm stage is less than a typical sut I believe never mind the longdog...

[PaulStewart]

The other phono stage I tried recently was the Rothwell Rialto which HFN also declared an outstanding product. At Rothwell's suggestion I coupled this with their MCL SUT, this makes a great combination and probably the best SS phono solution I've heard at this price point. The review is HERE (http://www.musicosis.co.uk/?p=2471)

[Clive197]

Thanks guys for your suggestions. I'm currently exploring one of the models suggested and will let you know the result in the fullness of time.

Clive

[Arkless Electronics]

Hi Clive,

I've not heard the Arkless or the Firebottle units, (I'd be happy to review both for Musicosis BTW). I have heard the Dino with the PSU and found it to be a good phono stage but not the ultimate. I note from your signature you use a Cadenza MC, so if you went for the Firebottle you would have to price in an SUT as well. Not too long ago I reviewed the Longdog Audio MCJ2, I found this to be natural yet detailed, lucid and musical with great dynamics. At the price I rate it very highly and prefer it to most I've heard, including the Tricord set up. it's well worth a listen. If you want to read the review, you can find it HERE (http://www.musicosis.co.uk/?p=1214)

Cheers

I can send you the demo unit for the standard Arkless 640P for review if you like...?

[YNWaN]

Don't quite understand the "different aspects of reproduction" :scratch:

Accuracy and clarity come to mind and surely all designs strive for this?

:cool: Alan


Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Accuracy and clarity (though if one were to be pedantic one may argue that you cant have one without the other, or rather, if accuracy is genuinely achieved then clarity is contained within that) may be what all designs strive for (though that is an assumption and may not be so in every case) - but as no two designs are the same it’s fair to assume that they either do not achieve it or such goals can be achieved in a plethora of different ways.


Hmmm...............like Alan, I find this a very strange statement. Surely there is only one aspect if its reproduction you are after. Anything else ain't a reproduction, its an original.

There may be only one aspect of reproduction you are after (you don't say what that aspect is but I will assume it is accuracy), but just because that is what you want doesn't mean that is what you get. Many (most even) manufacturers claim accuracy for their designs - but most of them sound different (not necessarily better) to each other so one must presume that they are not accurate (many don't even measure accurately - i.e. the RIAA equalisation is not accurate or significant distortion is added).

[Clive197]

Accuracy, what exactly does that mean? Accurate to a live performance, accurate to how the Band, Singer or Orchestra sounded, accurate to WHAT?

Sorry to sound so pedantic, but IMHO there is no such thing within the context of recorded music.

Clarity it may be argued is an entirely different thing. To be able to hear and understand how the musicians are playing their instrument(s) can be a description of clarity and I'm sure many of you will have other examples.

Clive

[Haselsh1]

Accuracy, what exactly does that mean? Accurate to a live performance, accurate to how the Band, Singer or Orchestra sounded, accurate to WHAT?

Sorry to sound so pedantic, but IMHO there is no such thing within the context of recorded music.

Clarity it may be argued is an entirely different thing. To be able to hear and understand how the musicians are playing their instrument(s) can be a description of clarity and I'm sure many of you will have other examples.

Clive

Are you ever going to get accuracy with electronic music or music which is reproduced using electrical circuits...? How do you judge accuracy ? What is it relative to ?

[YNWaN]

Well, my response was to others mention of accuracy and clarity, I didn't use those terms myself; so I will leave to them to expand upon what they meant.

[Clive197]

Hi Guys

An update. After many of you suggested FIREBOTTLE's Phono Stage, I arranged to borrow a demo sample doing the rounds. In the meantime I heard the Whest PS.30RDT and was blown away. So I decided to cancel the loan of the FIREBOTTLE and start saving for the Whest, maybe after I return from holiday in early April I would do something about it.

Anyway last week I was talking to my friendly dealer (who I've known for over 40 years) who said he would demo me the Whest and another Phonostage which may surprise me. I sat down on his demo sofa and listened to the Whest, it was still wonderful. After a while he changed to the other Phonostage and I sat there with my mouth open when he told me that it could be mine for slightly less than £800. The sound was very close to the Whest with the same bass detail I loved. Needless to say it made my Dino sound rather flat. We had a conversation, a fight and eventually after pinning him down on the floor with his arm half way up his back he agreed to sell me one with a nice discount. So instead of spending just under £3,000 I spent £700. What was this fantastic under promoted Phonostage you ask, it was a Rega Aria, the best kept secret in HiFi Land. Me, I'm a very happy bunny.

When I get some time I'll write a full review for you guys.

Clive

[Firebottle]

Very pleased for you Clive, looking forward to reading the review.

You're still welcome to compare the Firebottle if you wish.

Cheers,
Alan