which arm for 1210? [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

oxela23

26-11-2013, 14:48

Hi Folks, only my second post after the obligatory welcome.

Iv'e just picked up an old friend - the 1210 (in need of much TLC) I am considering my options with the arm.

Ive just about to put a fully fettled AO on my LP12 and have a spare RB300 sitting in the shelf. Do I go for this, depending if the RB300 works with this TT, or consider the Jelco which I am reading a lot of support for on here or just get the std 1210 arm rewired?

Im also just about to put a new Denon 103 on the Sondek so I plan to move the Denon 110 to the Techie.

Any comments appreciated

Spectral Morn

26-11-2013, 15:03

Hi Alex

Some don't like the Rega on the 1200/1210 though I think it works quite well, Origin Live or Audiomods Rega based arms work well, Jelco 250/750 work well as does the SME arms 309, 4 and 5, Terminator works well and quite a few others I haven't listed. Ultimately synergy is the thing, TT, Arm, Cart, Phonostage and the overall system, room must match.

With the Technics mat, platter, psu, bearing, feet, armboard, record weight or not etc all matter and the combination of these items must be synergistic with the arm and cart chosen. Its a jigsaw and everything makes a difference but to varying degrees with some bits having more say than others.

I have to say though that the stock arm with some tweaks and the deck as is supplied does sound great fun but lacks the sophistication and insights that tweaked 1200s will give you.

Its a slippery slope.

Regards Neil

Oldpinkman

26-11-2013, 15:10

Believe it or not, there are other arms than the RB300 and the Jelco. If you have an RB 300 you presumably liked it, and it must be worth trying it on the Technics, although the lack of VTA is a bit limiting. In my limited experience changing the arm has great potential for improving the deck. I have a bit of a pet theory that actually arms are the most significant reason why a record player sounds better, but don't tell Ivor Tiefenbrun or Marco I said that. It's not that the various bits of a TT design don't make a difference, and doubtless there are synergies, but changing the arm makes a whopping difference.

I wonder looking back, whether one of the reasons (apart from huge marketing effort and media control) that the LP12 did so well, was because until about 1981 when I bought my PT after a head-to-head with an LP12 - both with the awful Linn LV-V arm which I bought and had on my PT for over 12 months, was because prior to that "wonder cheap" arm, all LP12's were fitted with a half decent one (whether Linn Ittok, Rega, Syrinx, Helius or whatever). The "record player" always had a decent arm on it until the idea of sticking simple loose headshell japanese S shaped arms came along in the form of the LV-V, at which point a host of other turntables came along too.

Anyway - worth trying changing the arm. Changing the wires on the stock arm will make a tiny difference to the extent to which the signal from the cartridge gets out of the rca's at the preamp, and will do nothing for the way the arm mechanically screws up what that signal from the cartridge is. To quote a magazine review for the arm I am using at the moment, and have heard to good effect on a Technics "It's remarkable how the music comes through when the arm is not in the way" :)

belloire

26-11-2013, 15:22

i'm loving the jelco sa-750d on my techie, easy to use and not crazy expensive. i prefer it to the rega 301 that a pal has on his 1210mk2. (as does he!) i'd love to try a funk arm on there, the f5, fx-r or the new f6, but that's more about looks than anything. at this point i don't think i could cope without a headshell to swap carts easily

however, i did have a mk2 before i got the mk5, and it had the standard arm on. chatting with j7 he was of the opinion the standard arm is really good once rewired and bearings fettled (with a new headshell). the good thing about using it is the vta adjustment is a joy to use, especially compared to the rega!

perhaps try that before changing?

Oldpinkman

26-11-2013, 15:31

i'd love to try a funk arm on there, the f5, fx-r or the new f6, but that's more about looks than anything. at this point i don't think i could cope without a headshell to swap carts easily

If you were a bit nearer...

That boy Arthur needs some dealers who stock his products! Not heard an F6 yet (might Friday). Heard both the others on a Techie and I repeat my earlier comment that I am more aware of the arm than the turntable underneath it. The VTA on the techie is a great thing (when it doesn't jam) but like the detachable headshell matters more if you spend your time fiddling about with HiFi. If, as I hope to, you spend your time with a system you enjoy, leaving it be, then detachable headshells are not a big deal, and add another mechanical issue which has never floated my boat. The VTA on funks arms is pretty easy to set - even I can do it, and goodness only knows I am about the shakiest-handed, wonkiest-eyed person ever to set up a turntable

(Ironically I had to correct the set-up Arthur did for me) :doh:

Spectral Morn

26-11-2013, 15:46

Origin Live do a VTA adjuster for old mount Rega arms (so do a few other companies + a nice armboard and Rega supply VTA adjusters for the new mount arms - so VTA isn't a problem.

Regards Neil

Spectral Morn

26-11-2013, 15:52

belloire

26-11-2013, 17:33

i've heard that Neil, so i'm lining up a few to try over the next weeks.

i'll probably get one made for it. if this cart can get any better i'll be over the moon though!

oxela23

26-11-2013, 22:37

Hey guys, been away most of the day since my post but thanks for the input.

Im laughing as Im still cleaning the 1210, my god its dirty, and Ive had no luck trying to shift the height adjuster so i think I've got a wee job on my hands (having watched a utube tutorial on unsticking the height adjuster).

Thanks for the info about the range of arms available and while I have an existing RB300 -and i am a fan - i do now have a wee hankering for a change given the selection mentioned above so so I can keep my eyes open for something pre loved - even better if i get to hear one.

My goal meantime will be to free time and try to open TT and free adjuster as its a bigger job than i thought - and then I can at least pop the Denon 110 on the stock arm and give it a whirl.

After some closer inspection today, i also feel a headshell is a must as the existing headshell is not great and the tags look so brittle and very grimy (recommendations welcomed)

Thanks Alex

twotone

26-11-2013, 22:54

Hi Alex, I'm just about to change the stock arm for a Micro Seiki MA-202 complete with MS headshell and SAE 1000LT HOMC cart & mounted onto a Speedy Steve ebony armboard.

Once I have it set up your more than welcome to come over for a listen.

Tony

oxela23

27-11-2013, 08:28

Aw thanks for the offer Tony, that's an offer I would not refuse, as theres nothing better than having a listen. Just looked and see your in Glasgow too. Excellent :D

Ill have a wee look at the Micro too as I am unfamiliar with this brand/arm.

Hope all goes well with your changeover - will you do this yourself?

Alex

twotone

27-11-2013, 13:39

Hi Alex, yep going to change the arm over at the weekend, seems quite straight forward.

I'll post an update.

Tony

oxela23

27-11-2013, 13:45

Idlewithnodrive

27-11-2013, 14:14

as I have this irrational fear Ill not be able to remember how to put it all back together:scratch:

Cheers

Nothing irrational about that Alex; welcome to my world :)

........................ and welcome to AoS

oxela23

27-11-2013, 19:48

Thanks for the welcome Idlewithnodrive and seems like I'm in the right place:)

Andrei

27-11-2013, 20:46

That’s great Tony and look forward to hearing your comments and findings.
This will also help me as i have to conduct a similar procedure to get to the arm height adjust as its seized solid - although building up to this as I have this irrational fear Ill not be able to remember how to put it all back together:scratch:
Cheers
When I rewired my techie I took photos of every stage of the way. Pulling it apart no problem! but I could not get humpty dumpty out of my head.

oxela23

27-11-2013, 21:02

Thanks for the tip Andrei...great idea!

I see you have a DL110 and guess you like it? I am also considering this cart and if i may ask, what type of headshell do you use with this cart?

Andrei

27-11-2013, 21:50

Thanks for the tip Andrei...great idea!
I see you have a DL110 and guess you like it? I am also considering this cart and if i may ask, what type of headshell do you use with this cart?
Digital Cameras sure come in handy. At the moment I am in a similar situation to you. I have a Jelco 750D (+ collar + mounting board) sitting next to to my TT waiting to be installed.

I have two carts at the moment:
Denon DL110 on an Oyaide HS-CF Headshell (the dark coloured one); and
Benz Ace SL on an Oyaide HS-TF Headshell (the light coloured one).
The Denon costs a third of the price of the Benz and they perform equally well - but this is on the stock Technics arm and may well change after I've put on the Jelco. They both put out a convincing soundstage that I am happy with.
I'm not too sure about the headshells. I went for them as they are well regarded and I have had good experiences with Oyaide's cables. They seem to do the job well enough. The HS-TF is heavier than the HS-CF and I would not recommend it for the standard arm without a heavier counterweight.

PaulStewart

27-11-2013, 22:38

Hi Alex,

To go of at a tangent somewhat, if it was me I'd put he AO on the Techie and put the Linn on eBay then use the money to finish the upgrade. The 1210 properly set up will, in my opinion, blow the Linn and most other bouncy TTs, out of the water :)

Cheers

Paul S

oxela23

27-11-2013, 23:02

Thanks Andrrei,

Ill have a look at this headshell and glad to hear your thoughts about the DN110.

Fair point Paul, I've always had a love for the 1210 as I grew up with this TT but my long term plan was to have one of each TT, in that one day my son may take an interest. My wife does laugh when i say this and chips in "he'll certainly not want your records"

twotone

27-11-2013, 23:19

The best system that I've heard was an all Linn set up.

The guy's a customer of mine and has over 4000 LPs.

Both his digital and vinyl set ups were astonishing, jaw dropping in fact.

loo

27-11-2013, 23:42

"he'll certainly not want your records"
Maybe not but I bet he wont say no to the money that they will be worth:eyebrows:
my misses freaks out when she hears my 5yr old singing along to rage against the machine :lol:
good luck with the techy and Andrei,s photo suggestion is spot on ,exactly what I do
Paul

twotone

27-11-2013, 23:53

Alex I used a Denon DL 110 for about a year and, for the money, it's a good cart but I'm now using an SAE 1000LT which is in a different league.

Tarzan

28-11-2013, 17:24

The best system that I've heard was an all Linn set up.

The guy's a customer of mine and has over 4000 LPs.

Both his digital and vinyl set ups were astonishing, jaw dropping in fact.

One of the best systems l have heard was mid level Linn/Naim system back in the day round a mate's house, incredible sound.

twotone

28-11-2013, 22:48

oxela23

28-11-2013, 23:07

Yea Linn and Naim do seem to go well together.

My LP12 is an original (in fact it belonged to AO himself) pre circus bearing with a norton psu (still to be plugged in) and naim amp which has made playing records very enjoyable indeed. I am looking forward to giving the 1210 the same amount of TLC, with a little upgrade hear and there too :D

I reckon Ive spent about 3 days now just reading stuff in this part of the forum and playing about with ideas...maybe this maybe that. It's all exciting and part of the fun i suppose.

Tarzan

29-11-2013, 09:13

Hi Andy, the guy changed his entire system last year from an other all Linn system which was stunning too.

He's got an old Sondek and it goes into Linn every year for a service without fail, he was going through a £350 Linn cart every six months but the last time I was talking to him he said that cart was no longer available and he's now buying £700 carts but that he was hoping that one would last him about a year.

He played me a Muddy Waters audiophile vinyl, think it was a 1962 recording, totally blew me away, I've never heard a record sound as good since.

Tony

Yes! My mate was playing blues and rock, l am going from memory here, but l think his system was;

LP12/Ittok/Troika

Naim72pre?/ 140 power amp

Original Linn Kan,

All this stuff was on Mana furniture, in a block of flats with solid walls, it really was an all day listen, and that for me says everything.

take5

29-11-2013, 09:22

With regard to the opening question regarding an arm for 1210, I heard a friends last week, and it sounded fantastic. 1210, Jelco 750 arm, Art1 cartridge. A really great match.

Oldpinkman

29-11-2013, 16:58

[QUOTE=belloire;504205]i i'd love to try a funk arm on there, the f5, fx-r or the new f6, /QUOTE]

I hadn't heard the F6 when I last responded to this. I was strapped into the blind testing seat today and got my first listen. Now, I know I'm Arthurs mate, and biased and all that, but I sailed through yet another blind test and was astonished. This was Flamenca v RP6 and unless I am stone deaf the boy has another winner on his hands (at least in reviews - fairly pointless getting amazing awards and having only 5 uk retailers, but hey ho)

Probably another month before you see one in a shop, but it will be worth the wait. LSD has just picked up an award in HiFi World, so I rather fancy they will get first review of Flamenca F6. It's going to be a great arm for solid decks.

twotone

29-11-2013, 18:14

With regard to the opening question regarding an arm for 1210, I heard a friends last week, and it sounded fantastic. 1210, Jelco 750 arm, Art1 cartridge. A really great match.

Thanks Brian.

I thought about getting a Jelco 750 but by the time you buy the arm, arm board, Shuggie collar, headshell and a good cable your hitting £600 so I decided, after a recommendation, to go for a Micro Seiki MA-202 and ebony arm board.

The tonearm came with a brand new MS headshell and cable which is old but I'm going to wait before rushing out to buy an other one and it doesn't look as if it's ever been used judging by the connector which is mint as is the tonearm's connector.

I've spent about £400 so far BTW, £300 for the tonearm and £100 for the armboard.

Tony

RobbieGong

29-11-2013, 18:51

Great choice Tony, As you know I have both on my Techie and very very pleased indeed, The fact it has on the fly vta too is a real bonus and a nice touch - Happy listening :)

Thanks Brian.

I thought about getting a Jelco 750 but by the time you buy the arm, arm board, Shuggie collar, headshell and a good cable your hitting £600 so I decided, after a recommendation, to go for a Micro Seiki MA-202 and ebony arm board.

The tonearm came with a brand new MS headshell and cable which is old but I'm going to wait before rushing out to buy an other one and it doesn't look as if it's ever been used judging by the connector which is mint as is the tonearm's connector.

I've spent about £400 so far BTW, £300 for the tonearm and £100 for the armboard.

Tony

joniakaidiot

01-01-2014, 00:16

I have Audio Technica AT-1005 mk2 installed in my SL-1210.
I like it a lot, especially the build of the AT arm.

I guess that Micro Seiki is a nice choice too.

belloire

01-01-2014, 11:29

Have you tried anything else Joni? I've got an at1005 II as well as my jelco. Not sure if its worth changing (I'd like to put the jelco on my pioneer as I think it will look excellent....)

twotone

01-01-2014, 17:37

I have Audio Technica AT-1005 mk2 installed in my SL-1210.
I like it a lot, especially the build of the AT arm.

I guess that Micro Seiki is a nice choice too.

Hi Joni, yes the MS arm is very good indeed but I think I struck lucky with it because I have an SAE 1000LT HOMC cart and it appears that MS & SAE were joined at the hip in the seventies with one company making tonearms and TTs and the other making the carts and amps.

Unfortunately my phono amp developed a fault so I've sent it back to Jez Arkless who modded it and who is now going to upgrade (and repair) it to his higher spec phono stage The Turbo.

However at the moment and I'm using the phono stage in my amp which is a Brio-r and sounds pretty good to me.

Tony

PS, Happy new year everyone.

joniakaidiot

01-01-2014, 21:16

Have you tried anything else Joni? I've got an at1005 II as well as my jelco. Not sure if its worth changing (I'd like to put the jelco on my pioneer as I think it will look excellent....)

Darren,
Nope, I haven't tried other arms than Technics stock arm and AT-1005.
Much happier with AT than with stock arm. ;)

Jelco's advantage might be the fluid damping.
I was thinking hard between couple of arm choices, but then Angus introduced me an AT-1005 and I really liked the way it looks - I preferred it over Jelco's look.

Hi Joni, yes the MS arm is very good indeed but I think I struck lucky with it because I have an SAE 1000LT HOMC cart and it appears that MS & SAE were joined at the hip in the seventies with one company making tonearms and TTs and the other making the carts and amps.

Unfortunately my phono amp developed a fault so I've sent it back to Jez Arkless who modded it and who is now going to upgrade (and repair) it to his higher spec phono stage The Turbo.

However at the moment and I'm using the phono stage in my amp which is a Brio-r and sounds pretty good to me.

Tony

PS, Happy new year everyone.

Tony,
Ah, you have SAE cart - I guess it's a nice sounding cart?
Have you heard Nagaoka/Dynavector 10x/Denon DL-110 carts - how is it compared with them?

Sorry to hear that your phonostage had to be sent to repairs - but at least you're getting a higher step device now! ;)

Yep, happy new year guys!

twotone

01-01-2014, 21:31

Tony,
Ah, you have SAE cart - I guess it's a nice sounding cart?
Have you heard Nagaoka/Dynavector 10x/Denon DL-110 carts - how is it compared with them?

Sorry to hear that your phonostage had to be sent to repairs - but at least you're getting a higher step device now! ;)

Yep, happy new year guys!

Hi Joni, only heard the Denon DL-110 and the SAE is way better in my opinion.

Would love to try an Ortofon Black but the funds are a bit tight at the minute.

The Nag 200 (?) is meant to be excellent though however there's an AT cart that gets great reviews.

The AUDIO TECHNICA AT-150mlx which is supposed to be a match for the Ortofon Black.

Tony

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/audio-technica-at150mlx-review.305477/

joniakaidiot

01-01-2014, 22:23

Hi Joni, only heard the Denon DL-110 and the SAE is way better in my opinion.

Would love to try an Ortofon Black but the funds are a bit tight at the minute.

The Nag 200 (?) is meant to be excellent though however there's an AT cart that gets great reviews.

The AUDIO TECHNICA AT-150mlx which is supposed to be a match for the Ortofon Black.

Tony

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/audio-technica-at150mlx-review.305477/

Tony,

Ok, that's what I read from some discussion boards too, that SAE sounds better than DL-110.
Good to hear it from you too - I was planing to try that SAE out someday - as far as the stock at that German dealer lasts. ;)

Actually I bought Nagaoka MP-200 yesterday - it's used, and I still haven't got it, but looking forward to get it in my hands soon and hearing how it sounds like.
So, I'll get to do a Dyna/Nag comparison myself.

Aha, gotta check that AT cart out too. ;)

hal55

02-01-2014, 03:36

IMHO, I reckon unipivots mate well with the precision of a SP10/1200/1210. The 70s Decca London International on mine (SP10) sounds superb and I know Marco has heard a Hadcock on an SP10 which he rated highly. Unipivots seem to not get in the way of the music, where a lot of tonearms seem to be too intent on being busy little devices exacting loads of detail, but not sounding the better for it.

Hal55