Voltage regulators for valve amps....

[Arkless Electronics]

I'm in the process of adding voltage regulators to all stages of my Leak Stereo 20 and wondered if anyone else is interested in this as an upgrade?
In fact most valve amps can have this done, to great effect, modern ones as well.... if anyone's interested.... which they probably aren't as it's technical and makes real improvements and so no doubt will generate much less interest than turned oak cones to put under the amp.... or a mains cable with a damping layer of pure bull shit...... cynical? me? :D

Oh yes, important point... it wouldn't be cheap BTW

[Arkless Electronics]

Come on folks all those headshells must be burned in by now...... I know, I know, making fundamental huge improvements to the circuitry is a bit left field and indeed even "further out" than Peter Belts properly researched and proven scientific principles :brickwall:

I'm doing mine anyway! I did this years ago to a mates Stereo 20 and it sounded amazing :)

[Barry]

I'm in the process of adding voltage regulators to all stages of my Leak Stereo 20 and wondered if anyone else is interested in this as an upgrade?
In fact most valve amps can have this done, to great effect, modern ones as well.... if anyone's interested.... which they probably aren't as it's technical and makes real improvements and so no doubt will generate much less interest than turned oak cones to put under the amp.... or a mains cable with a damping layer of pure bull shit...... cynical? me? :D

Oh yes, important point... it wouldn't be cheap BTW

I think we would need a 'ball-park' figure Jez. How much would it cost to do a Radford STA15 III?

[Arkless Electronics]

I think we would need a 'ball-park' figure Jez. How much would it cost to do a Radford STA15 III?

I guess around £400 for most amps..... I'll get my coat.....

There is a hell of a lot involved in doing this. More than meets the eye in many ways, e.g. the regulator for the output stage needs to withstand arcing over and shorts in output valves, in many cases the valve rectifier will need to be replaced by solid state rectification to allow voltage headroom for the regulation, over voltage protection is needed as the raw unregulated voltage feeding the regulators will rise to a silly level until the heaters warm up (if the solid state rectifiers have had to be fitted, in some amps it will be possible to keep the valve rectifier), then there are separate regulators for the output stage, the phase splitter and the input stage. A big job! Shunt regulators made from discrete transistors would be another option for the phase splitter and input stages, at a slightly higher price.

I may look into supplying kits for people to fit themselves but it requires quite a lot of knowledge and experience to fit something like this properly.... especially when we're dealing with around 400V and one mistake could blow the whole lot up! It HAS to be right first time or expensive magic smoke will be released :D

Mind you, folks pay £100 for 1 boutique silver wound, silk-wrapped-on-the-thigh-of-a-Japanese-maiden super duper capacitor... and the regulators should give vastly more improvement than any amount of messing about with boutique parts or "tube rolling" ever could..... so it's really cheap actually :D

[User211]

OD3/OA3 voltage regs in my monoblocks.

£400 has to be worth it even if they make NO difference sonically. They just look cool!:D

EDIT: Er... you must be talking solid state regulators re-reading your description?

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9152&stc=1&d=1228171214

[Arkless Electronics]

OD3/OA3 voltage regs in my monoblocks.

£400 has to be worth it even if they make NO difference sonically. They just look cool!:D

EDIT: Er... you must be talking solid state regulators re-reading your description?

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9152&stc=1&d=1228171214

Indeed I am! the valves you mention are not regulators but stabilisers.... there's a big difference! What I'm planning is a lot more sophisticated than that...

Solid state has very clear advantages over valves when regulated supplies are the subject and will easily beat any valve regulator, usually by an order of magnitude!
Furthermore.... if valve regulation was being proposed then the circuitry would be much more complicated than the amplifier itself and simply wouldn't physically fit in the chassis...

If anyone ever needs an all valve regulated supply I would of course be willing to build it... but I don't know why anyone would want one cos it would be ten times the price for a quarter of the performance compared to SS in this application!

[Barry]

I guess around £400 for most amps..... I'll get my coat.....

There is a hell of a lot involved in doing this. More than meets the eye in many ways, e.g. the regulator for the output stage needs to withstand arcing over and shorts in output valves, in many cases the valve rectifier will need to be replaced by solid state rectification to allow voltage headroom for the regulation, over voltage protection is needed as the raw unregulated voltage feeding the regulators will rise to a silly level until the heaters warm up (if the solid state rectifiers have had to be fitted, in some amps it will be possible to keep the valve rectifier), then there are separate regulators for the output stage, the phase splitter and the input stage. A big job! Shunt regulators made from discrete transistors would be another option for the phase splitter and input stages, at a slightly higher price.
....



Thanks for that Jez. It is thought the superior midrange and treble of the STA15 (compared to that of the STA25) is due to the use of a GZ34 rectifier valve; the STA25 uses solid state rectification. I would not want to change that.

Whilst your proposed costs seem reasonable enough, I'll have to leave it a while as there are other audio matters that are more pressing on my wallet.

Thanks again

[Oldpinkman]

Just 2 comments because I am still on page 3 of the ladybird book of electronics.

When recently I got owen jones to peek inside a valve amplifier project (which used ss rectification) regarding an improvement path his first comment was that he would add a simple voltage regulator.

I thought that the job of the rectifiers, whether ss or valve, was to turn wiggly ac into flat dc. Valve rectification exists because it was all there was before ss, or to create a pure aesthetic. I have 2 valve amps I have recently run from batteries, and one was significantly better fir it, the other unchanged. Valve rectification per se, rather than the manner of its implementation shoukd have as much influence on the sound as a fat mains lead.

Do I need to get my head back in a book and make it to page 4?

[User211]

Be nice if someone could explain the difference between rectification, regulation and stabilisation so we could all think we understand it...:)

[Andrei]

Be nice if someone could explain the difference between rectification, regulation and stabilisation so we could all think we understand it...:)
Rectification has something to do with the rectum. Would you like to elaborate further?

[User211]

Rectification has something to do with the rectum. Would you like to elaborate further?

Er... nope!

Quick Googling - it appears the distinction between a regulator and stabiliser is somewhat blurred, and the two terms are used interchangeably.

[chris@panteg]

Indeed I am! the valves you mention are not regulators but stabilisers.... there's a big difference! What I'm planning is a lot more sophisticated than that...

Solid state has very clear advantages over valves when regulated supplies are the subject and will easily beat any valve regulator, usually by an order of magnitude!
Furthermore.... if valve regulation was being proposed then the circuitry would be much more complicated than the amplifier itself and simply wouldn't physically fit in the chassis...

If anyone ever needs an all valve regulated supply I would of course be willing to build it... but I don't know why anyone would want one cos it would be ten times the price for a quarter of the performance compared to SS in this application!


Ok Jez, so what's you're opinion of the choke input filter valve rectified type such as that offered by Border Patrol ?

A lot of valve amps use solid state regulators and it's been claimed this is the reason most valve amps sound loose and lacking in control , thoughts?

[lurcher]

Solid state has very clear advantages over valves when regulated supplies are the subject and will easily beat any valve regulator, usually by an order of magnitude!

Sorry, I have to chip in here, I can only assume the above is based on measurement instead of listening? And if its based on listening you didnt spend very long with the valve regulator design. The regulators is very much part of the signal path, so getting it to sound right is far more than a case of measurement. Though thats also true of SS regulators.


Furthermore.... if valve regulation was being proposed then the circuitry would be much more complicated than the amplifier itself and simply wouldn't physically fit in the chassis...

Probably, but thats an argument based on convenience not performance.

BTW, a CCS supplied VR tube can make a perfectly good shunt regulated supply for a preamp or other low current stage.

[Arkless Electronics]

Be nice if someone could explain the difference between rectification, regulation and stabilisation so we could all think we understand it...:)


Rectification turns AC to DC, stabilisation does pretty much as the name suggests and tries to remove variations of the output voltage, by passive means,
regulation uses feedback (a servo) to control the output voltage with orders of magnitude more accuracy than a stabiliser. more to the point it can offer incredibly low output impedance and noise. As a kind of over simplification for brevity, a regulator can replicate the effect of having a psu capacitor the size of a house!

[Arkless Electronics]

Er... nope!

Quick Googling - it appears the distinction between a regulator and stabiliser is somewhat blurred, and the two terms are used interchangeably.


No, they are very distinct and different and the terms are not interchangeable (although they do sometimes get mixed up by some that should know better!)

[Arkless Electronics]

Ok Jez, so what's you're opinion of the choke input filter valve rectified type such as that offered by Border Patrol ?

A lot of valve amps use solid state regulators and it's been claimed this is the reason most valve amps sound loose and lacking in control , thoughts?

It's more "smoke and mirrors" generally.... as is so much of the commercial side of hifi. It could well be a fair bit better than a poor internal supply but there are much bigger fish to fry elsewhere!

The type of rectifier should have little or no effect on bass tightness and the better the rest of the PSU after the rectifier then the less the effect.... In a very crude supply then if anything a solid state rectifier should give the tighter bass due to less series resistance.

The completely regulated supply should give the ultimate in tight bass, low colouration and instrumental separation etc. The regulation I am proposing can be expected to make an amplifier sound very different and more "modern".

[Arkless Electronics]

Sorry, I have to chip in here, I can only assume the above is based on measurement instead of listening? And if its based on listening you didnt spend very long with the valve regulator design. The regulators is very much part of the signal path, so getting it to sound right is far more than a case of measurement. Though thats also true of SS regulators.

Probably, but thats an argument based on convenience not performance.

BTW, a CCS supplied VR tube can make a perfectly good shunt regulated supply for a preamp or other low current stage.



I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on most of that Nick. A SS regulator can easily measure 100 or a 1000 times better than a valve one and when implemented properly has much more to offer in my opinion.

What I'm proposing has to fit within the original chassis space as well!

A CCS fed VR valve is a stabiliser not a regulator and although line regulation would be fine the load regulation would not be in any why helped by the CCS and would be poor. The slope resistance of the VR would give an output impedance around 100 Ohms (bad!) compared with around 0.00001 Ohm for a regulator (and a lot better still for a really good one), and finally, a VR valve is noisy and so not that good for a pre amp even... By the time you have gone to the lengths of filtering out the noise with a suitable sized electrolytic (avoiding creating a relaxation oscillator in conjunction with the VR of course), you now have the characteristics of the capacitor as dominant as seen by the circuitry... so there was no real point in using the VR valve...

There are of course differences of opinion among engineers as to what areas reap the greatest rewards sonically and how best to implement things, I guess my professional advice to customers would be quite different to yours, and sometimes virtually the opposite! Vive la différence as they say....

[Arkless Electronics]

Marco, This is not a DIY project..... maybe in the wrong section? I put it in blank canvas as it was something up for discussion etc and not trade impressions as it was not a finished product with definite price etc....

[Firebottle]

Vive la difference - definately, it`s good for left field thinking and possible alternative approaches.

The problem with your proposal Jez is that you can`t audition it first :(
It`s certainly worthwhile for the sonic improvements, be great to follow a real life example if you get a customer :)

Cheers, Alan

[Arkless Electronics]

Vive la difference - definately, it`s good for left field thinking and possible alternative approaches.

The problem with your proposal Jez is that you can`t audition it first :(
It`s certainly worthwhile for the sonic improvements, be great to follow a real life example if you get a customer :)

Cheers, Alan

Yeah you can't audition it first..... As I was doing this work on my own amp I just thought "why not see if anyone else is interested"?

Unfortunately the biggest improvements possible in hifi are generally of a technical nature and so lay people tend to ignore what they don't understand and go for pre-packaged "solutions" they've read about in the approved mags etc.... such as mains cables etc which make no difference!
It's like watching a load of car fanatics who know nowt about engine and suspension design and so discuss endlessly the different types of go faster stripes, air fresheners, lights under the car, nodding dogs etc.... and worse still seriously believe that all this effects the handling and 0 - 60 time as much as better camshaft profiles and suspension units! You couldn't make it up.... It's an engineers perennial frustration!

Coat on.....

[chris@panteg]

It's more "smoke and mirrors" generally.... as is so much of the commercial side of hifi. It could well be a fair bit better than a poor internal supply but there are much bigger fish to fry elsewhere!

The type of rectifier should have little or no effect on bass tightness and the better the rest of the PSU after the rectifier then the less the effect.... In a very crude supply then if anything a solid state rectifier should give the tighter bass due to less series resistance.

The completely regulated supply should give the ultimate in tight bass, low colouration and instrumental separation etc. The regulation I am proposing can be expected to make an amplifier sound very different and more "modern".

Not my experience Jez, removing the two brridge rectifiers in a pair of 2nd audios and fitting border patrol psu's instantly tightened and solidified the bass and the amps sounded calmer and more composed, perhaps it's the implementation?

Border patrol claimed the solid state rectified supply could not maintain a stiff enough voltage, going up and down like a yoyo as the amplitude of the music changes.

[Arkless Electronics]

Not my experience Jez, removing the two brridge rectifiers in a pair of 2nd audios and fitting border patrol psu's instantly tightened and solidified the bass and the amps sounded calmer and more composed, perhaps it's the implementation?

Border patrol claimed the solid state rectified supply could not maintain a stiff enough voltage, going up and down like a yoyo as the amplitude of the music changes.

That couldn't be more wrong! The EXACT opposite is true! Valve rectifiers have approx 100 Ohms internal resistance whilst SS ones have 1 Ohm tops.... Once beyond the choke and at the first smoothing cap then it has already ceased to make any difference as to whether valve or SS is used due to the series resistance and reactance of the choke and low impedance of the capacitor completely dominating.

It may well have stiffened up the bass and given all those other improvements and yes it's due to a stiffer supply and preventing the "voltage, going up and down like a yoyo as the amplitude of the music changes".... it's very definitely not due to valve rectifiers though! More likely there is a much larger than standard capacitor at the output of the Border Patrol than in most standard amps.
.
The regulators I'm proposing will have the same effect but vastly more so as they would prevent "voltage, going up and down like a yoyo as the amplitude of the music changes" by a factor of maybe 1000 times "stiffer" than the Border Patrol supply! (or any non regulated supply), also I'm using separate regulators for the input stage and phase splitter stage to prevent any interaction between the stages and give each stage it's own super stiff supply..... Think of three separate Border Patrol PSU's powering your amp... one for the output stage, one for the phase splitter stage and one for the input stage, each one 1000 X stiffer than the Border Patrol, and you're getting there ;)

BTW "Don't attempt anything without the gloves!" :eyebrows:

[SPS]

My power supplies are generally somewhere in between choke input / cap input and always valve rectified, every time i measure the voltage on a working amplifier have yet to see more than a couple of volts change in the supply with what ever music is playing.

[Arkless Electronics]

My power supplies are generally somewhere in between choke input / cap input and always valve rectified, every time i measure the voltage on a working amplifier have yet to see more than a couple of volts change in the supply with what ever music is playing.

So are they choke or capacitor input? or are some one type and others the other? :scratch: You can't have "in-between choke input and cap input"... it's one or the other!

Your amps are single ended I see... which means they are class A and so have a constant draw on the power supply so you would not expect to see much variation! This is one advantage of class A.... The psu is still a long way from a perfect voltage source as approached by good regulated supplies though. Very tiny signal draw derived fluctuations in the voltage powering any stage will be amplified as if a signal, to varying extents depending on the PSRR of the circuitry being powered. This is the issue. These fluctuations can be reduced by a good regulated supply to the point of being at or beyond the limits of our ability to measure them!

[chris@panteg]

That couldn't be more wrong! The EXACT opposite is true! Valve rectifiers have approx 100 Ohms internal resistance whilst SS ones have 1 Ohm tops.... Once beyond the choke and at the first smoothing cap then it has already ceased to make any difference as to whether valve or SS is used due to the series resistance and reactance of the choke and low impedance of the capacitor completely dominating.

It may well have stiffened up the bass and given all those other improvements and yes it's due to a stiffer supply and preventing the "voltage, going up and down like a yoyo as the amplitude of the music changes".... it's very definitely not due to valve rectifiers though! More likely there is a much larger than standard capacitor at the output of the Border Patrol than in most standard amps.
.
The regulators I'm proposing will have the same effect but vastly more so as they would prevent "voltage, going up and down like a yoyo as the amplitude of the music changes" by a factor of maybe 1000 times "stiffer" than the Border Patrol supply! (or any non regulated supply), also I'm using separate regulators for the input stage and phase splitter stage to prevent any interaction between the stages and give each stage it's own super stiff supply..... Think of three separate Border Patrol PSU's powering your amp... one for the output stage, one for the phase splitter stage and one for the input stage, each one 1000 X stiffer than the Border Patrol, and you're getting there ;)

BTW "Don't attempt anything without the gloves!" :eyebrows:


Jez alas I don't own the amps anymore, but neither Border Patrol or I claim its anything to do with the valve, it's the type of rectifier used, choke input filter ,giving a high noise rejection with very stiff and clean power.

Maybe you could design something better, if so then go for it.

[Marco]

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on most of that Nick. A SS regulator can easily measure 100 or a 1000 times better than a valve one and when implemented properly has much more to offer in my opinion.

What I'm proposing has to fit within the original chassis space as well!

A CCS fed VR valve is a stabiliser not a regulator and although line regulation would be fine the load regulation would not be in any why helped by the CCS and would be poor. The slope resistance of the VR would give an output impedance around 100 Ohms (bad!) compared with around 0.00001 Ohm for a regulator (and a lot better still for a really good one), and finally, a VR valve is noisy and so not that good for a pre amp even... By the time you have gone to the lengths of filtering out the noise with a suitable sized electrolytic (avoiding creating a relaxation oscillator in conjunction with the VR of course), you now have the characteristics of the capacitor as dominant as seen by the circuitry... so there was no real point in using the VR valve...

There are of course differences of opinion among engineers as to what areas reap the greatest rewards sonically and how best to implement things, I guess my professional advice to customers would be quite different to yours, and sometimes virtually the opposite! Vive la différence as they say....

It would be interesting to hear Anthony TD's view on this matter, and whether they align more towards yours or Nick's. I shall direct him to this discussion accordingly :)

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Jez alas I don't own the amps anymore, but neither Border Patrol or I claim its anything to do with the valve, it's the type of rectifier used, choke input filter ,giving a high noise rejection with very stiff and clean power.

Maybe you could design something better, if so then go for it.

Choke input does give a few advantages in a basic power supply but even the crudest regulated supply would give stiffer and cleaner power than a non regulated supply by many times over..... It's like comparing the speed of the horse against a fighter jet, even if it's a REALLY fast horse it ain't gonna make much difference in a race! Silly analogy eh? :eek:

"of course he's the fucking farmer" (for Chris)

[Arkless Electronics]

It would be interesting to hear Anthony TD's view on this matter, and whether they align more towards yours or Nick's. I shall direct him to this discussion accordingly :)

Marco.

That would be interesting indeed.... I'll guess that as he's a valve guy he will be more in tune with Nicks view but it will be interesting to see.... I could be very wrong there!

[lurcher]

Your amps are single ended I see... which means they are class A and so have a constant draw on the power supply so you would not expect to see much variation! This is one advantage of class A

Another area where we will have to agree to differ. Constantly passing current is not the same as passing constant current.

[Marco]

That would be interesting indeed.... I'll guess that as he's a valve guy he will be more in tune with Nicks view but it will be interesting to see.... I could be very wrong there!

Ha - let me assure you that Anthony is not any kind of "guy" - and no, I don't mean he's a girl either, well, only on a Sunday... Anyway, I digress :lol:

Remember that Anthony produces valve and solid-state equipment, and like me (and I suspect also Nick), we're not 'wedded' to any specific technology or equipment building methodology, only to that which we consider sounds the best!!

Incidentally, what's the difference between regulation and rectification? Just to make sure I'm about to talk about the same thing. Anyway, in the meantime, I'll continue, as this is still relevant, in terms of the 'valve vs SS' debate...

With regards to the Copper amp (which I use), Anthony also produced a bigger version with more power (more valves per channel), and crucially in terms of this discussion, with SS, as opposed to valve rectification. Does it sound better than my own amp, which has less power and valve rectification (via 2x 5U4GBs or GZ34s)? No - BOTH are excellent, but different ;)

As far as my own experience goes with valve vs. SS rectification, when applied inside the design of a valve amp, then SS wins hands down, as when Glenn changed the 6080 rectifier valve, inside my Croft preamp, for a MOSFET (and of course altered the PSU accordingly), the improvement was startling to say the least! :eek:

However, does that mean that SS rectification is automatically better in all applications? No, of course not: there are simply too many variables. This is why, as far as audio is concerned, there is no 'one size fits all' or 'universal best' anything........

:exactly:

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Another area where we will have to agree to differ. Constantly passing current is not the same as passing constant current.

Whoops yes as its single ended you are of course quite corrct.
Im used to thikinh push pull in power amps!
Out and using mobile so more replies latwr... And better spelling...

[lurcher]

as when Glenn changed the 6080 rectifier valve, inside my Croft preamp, for a MOSFET

Just for accuracy Marco, the 6080 is the regulator valve, not the rectifier. And yes, a mosfet can do well in that role. I do exactly that in the B+ supply regulator to my DAC output stage.

A rectifier converts AC (flowing in both directions) into DC (pulsed DC, but still only flowing in one direction), its then smoothed into steady(er) DC by a cap, or a cap and a choke and a cap, or a choke and a cap.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Gratz.rectifier.en.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier

[Firebottle]

.... the 6080 rectifier valve, inside my Croft preamp, for a MOSFET

Just to be accurate the (or pedantic if you wish) 6080 is the pass device, or `regulator` valve, not the rectifier.
Interesting thread :hmm:

Alan

[Arkless Electronics]

Whoops yes as its single ended you are of course quite corrct.
Im used to thikinh push pull in power amps!
Out and using mobile so more replies latwr... And better spelling...

On second rhoughts.... Though still in the pub im afraid... Primary inductance, as its a transfomer coupled class a amp, means i was probably right after all...

[The Barbarian]

Fitting regulated D.C heaters.. is this part of the upgrade?

[loo]

Just to be accurate the (or pedantic if you wish) 6080 is the pass device, or `regulator` valve, not the rectifier.
Interesting thread :hmm:

Alan

the 6080 series stabiliser valve , a much under used output valve fantastic for OTL amps
Paul

[Marco]

Just for accuracy Marco, the 6080 is the regulator valve, not the rectifier. And yes, a mosfet can do well in that role. I do exactly that in the B+ supply regulator to my DAC output stage.

A rectifier converts AC (flowing in both directions) into DC (pulsed DC, but still only flowing in one direction), its then smoothed into steady(er) DC by a cap, or a cap and a choke and a cap, or a choke and a cap.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Gratz.rectifier.en.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier

Thanks for the clarification, Nick. That's something I wasn't sure about. However, the point is, when the use of an SS device audibly results in a significant improvement over the use of valves, I will employ it gladly, as indeed I would do if things were the other way round.

Despite what some people may think, my views in audio are far from being entrenched. I am no 'valve nut' - or an SS one either for that matter. Quite simply, I will always judge things solely on the basis of what I hear - and that applies whether or not my views expressed on forums are in the best commercial interests of certain manufacturers! ;)

The 'winner' of anything I judge in audio will always be simply what I consider sounds best, in the specific context in which it was judged. Simples!

Marco.

[lurcher]

Thanks for the clarification, Nick. That's something I wasn't sure about. However, the point is, when the use of an SS device audibly results in a significant improvement over the use of valves, I will employ it gladly, as indeed I would do if things were the other way round.


Yep, as you know Marco, thats my approach as well. Not sure if you were directing the above at me?

[lurcher]

On second rhoughts.... Though still in the pub im afraid... Primary inductance, as its a transfomer coupled class a amp, means i was probably right after all...

On third thought, ask yourself what happens if you remove the cathode bipass cap, and why.

Anyway, good luck with the regulator, I think they are vital. Over the years my amplifiers have got simpler, and the power supplies more complex.

[Marco]

Yep, as you know Marco, thats my approach as well. Not sure if you were directing the above at me?

For general consumption, Nick. However, in that respect, you know that we sing from the same hymn sheet :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Over the years my amplifiers have got simpler, and the power supplies more complex.

Hehehehe... Amen to that! ;)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

interesting thread,
First of all, i think both Jez and Nick have valid points, and the final decision on whether what is right or wrong would be in the listening, and from my own experience, what tests better dosen't always pan out to be better in the final listening test.
Where rectification is concerned, it is fact that solid state rectifiers [diodes] have a much lower impedance than any valve rectifier [diode] and therefore, will provide the basics for a much lower output power supply.
I have over the years made many designs of valve amps using conventional valve technology, and also, some quite sophisticated valve amps using lots of semiconductors as control circuitry, and regulation etc, ie; the Soul range, in many ways to show what is possible when you combine the best of both worlds etc. Either technology on its own has the potential of sounding very good for different reasons, but for me, i tend to agree that utilizing solid state devices to produce well designed regulators in valve amps can have have a profound affect on the performance of many of the traditionally designed valve amps out there' as far as test performances are concerned, but, again, it will depend on whether the listener appreciates the final outcome over the way it sounded in its original form.
That is why for me, on the whole, i tend to prefer to design circuits from the ground up, rather than modifying other peoples ideas, however, i appreciate a lot of the older design philosophies and have used many traditional ideas in the classic circuits i am known for.
Anthony,TD...

That would be interesting indeed.... I'll guess that as he's a valve guy he will be more in tune with Nicks view but it will be interesting to see.... I could be very wrong there!

[Arkless Electronics]

Ha - let me assure you that Anthony is not any kind of "guy" - and no, I don't mean he's a girl either, well, only on a Sunday... Anyway, I digress :lol:

Remember that Anthony produces valve and solid-state equipment, and like me (and I suspect also Nick), we're not 'wedded' to any specific technology or equipment building methodology, only to that which we consider sounds the best!!

Incidentally, what's the difference between regulation and rectification? Just to make sure I'm about to talk about the same thing. Anyway, in the meantime, I'll continue, as this is still relevant, in terms of the 'valve vs SS' debate...

With regards to the Copper amp (which I use), Anthony also produced a bigger version with more power (more valves per channel), and crucially in terms of this discussion, with SS, as opposed to valve rectification. Does it sound better than my own amp, which has less power and valve rectification (via 2x 5U4GBs or GZ34s)? No - BOTH are excellent, but different ;)

As far as my own experience goes with valve vs. SS rectification, when applied inside the design of a valve amp, then SS wins hands down, as when Glenn changed the 6080 rectifier valve, inside my Croft preamp, for a MOSFET (and of course altered the PSU accordingly), the improvement was startling to say the least! :eek:

However, does that mean that SS rectification is automatically better in all applications? No, of course not: there are simply too many variables. This is why, as far as audio is concerned, there is no 'one size fits all' or 'universal best' anything........

:exactly:

Marco.

The choice of valve or SS rectifiers is largely irrelevant in my view.... (rectifiers turn the AC to DC Marco). SS is more efficient, more reliable, gives a much "stiffer" output etc but most of the time a series element in the smoothing will be used (resistor or choke) which kind of lessens the difference.
The thing I do like about valve rectification is that the HT comes up at about the same time as the valves in the rest of the amp.... Overall i prefer SS and that's what I use in my valve designs but it's due to small size, cheapness and reliability rather than sound quality.

The 6080 is a dual triode specially developed as a series pass valve for regulated power supplies. Simplifying things here, a figure of merit for such a thing can be taken as its transconductance. For the 6080 this is 0.007A/V whereas for a typical power mosfet it more like 5A/V , a 700 X advantage to the mosfet! You see why I say SS regulated supplies are vastly superior!? No wonder it sounded better with the mosfet.... The greater open loop gain of solid state in the all important control section of the regulator could easily add another x 100 advantage to the SS version as well.

[Arkless Electronics]

interesting thread,
First of all, i think both Jez and Nick have valid points, and the final decision on whether what is right or wrong would be in the listening, and from my own experience, what tests better dosen't always pan out to be better in the final listening test.
Where rectification is concerned, it is fact that solid state rectifiers [diodes] have a much lower impedance than any valve rectifier [diode] and therefore, will provide the basics for a much lower output power supply.
I have over the years made many designs of valve amps using conventional valve technology, and also, some quite sophisticated valve amps using lots of semiconductors as control circuitry, and regulation etc, ie; the Soul range, in many ways to show what is possible when you combine the best of both worlds etc. Either technology on its own has the potential of sounding very good for different reasons, but for me, i tend to agree that utilizing solid state devices to produce well designed regulators in valve amps can have have a profound affect on the performance of many of the traditionally designed valve amps out there' as far as test performances are concerned, but, again, it will depend on whether the listener appreciates the final outcome over the way it sounded in its original form.
That is why for me, on the whole, i tend to prefer to design circuits from the ground up, rather than modifying other peoples ideas, however, i appreciate a lot of the older design philosophies and have used many traditional ideas in the classic circuits i am known for.
Anthony,TD...

Qh I'm right with you on that one! It's much more satisfying to design everything from the ground up and also usually much easier IME as you are not having to second guess another engineer and not having to make modifications to the original to allow it to work with your upgrades....

Unfortunately money comes into things and muddies the water... The Arkless 640P is an example here, I do these for £160 for the basic version (a donor is needed of course) but if everything was Arkless Electronics from the ground up, and specifically casework and PSU etc, then I would have to charge more like £400 - 500 for the same thing....

[anthonyTD]

Money unfortunately is indeed often the deciding factor as far as modifications are concerned,
I don't think the majority of people know or appreciate how much time and effort it takes to do even the simplest of mods to certain equipment.
So, i think what your offering is amicable, and fair' as far as pricing is concerned for the potential upgrade in performance that could be achieved by said mods etc...
Anthony,TD...




Qh I'm right with you on that one! It's much more satisfying to design everything from the ground up and also usually much easier IME as you are not having to second guess another engineer and not having to make modifications to the original to allow it to work with your upgrades....

Unfortunately money comes into things and muddies the water... The Arkless 640P is an example here, I do these for £160 for the basic version (a donor is needed of course) but if everything was Arkless Electronics from the ground up, and specifically casework and PSU etc, then I would have to charge more like £400 - 500 for the same thing....

[anthonyTD]

On third thought, ask yourself what happens if you remove the cathode bipass cap, and why.

Anyway, good luck with the regulator, I think they are vital.
Over the years my amplifiers have got simpler, and the power supplies more complex.
I am with you there Nick...
A...