Who wants a new one ?

[Audio Al]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-FACTORY-SEALED-Panasonic-Technics-SL-1210MK2-Turntable-/331070790346?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item4d155b5aca

:)

[Haselsh1]

No thanks, I'm OK with what I have at the moment.

[Tarzan]

No thanks just an overrated disco deck.

[Audio Al]

No thanks just an overrated disco deck.


:gig::gig::gig::gig::gig:


:sofa::sofa::sofa::sofa::sofa:

[NRG]

£1300 for a cardboard box! :stalks: :D

[Haselsh1]

No thanks just an overrated disco deck.

:lol:

[Haselsh1]

Certainly as a stock deck it is nowhere near as good as the one I currently have and I have used both and by the time you have heavily modified it, it is no longer a Techie.

[Tarzan]

Sorry, in ALL forms this deck is so overrated it is just wrong.













































































































;)

[Marco]

...by the time you have heavily modified it, it is no longer a Techie.

'Course it is, Shaun. As long as that superb direct-drive motor unit is still part of the equation, it's a Techie........ The fact is, all the modifications do is allow you to hear more of the inherent capabilities of the motor unit, so that it sounds even MORE like a Techie. Simples! Folk really need to get their heads around that fact :)

Is the LP12 still an LP12, despite the fact that these days almost every bit of it is upgradable? Which is a 'real' LP12: an original unit from the 1970s or a current one?

...And so it is with the SL-1200/1210: once a Techie, always a Techie.... :exactly:

Marco.

[MCRU]

£1300 for a cardboard box! :stalks: :D

exactly right

[MCRU]

Knowing ebay if you paid him £1000 and he sent you an empty box ebay would back him not you!

[Macca]

Any quality deck you buy - and it has been the case for 40 years at least. can be modified and/or improved - Vast majority of decks you have to choose an arm and a cart - for starters - detachable headshell? lots of them to choose from - platters? Even the old Systemdek IIX in the 'eighties came with a choice of glass or acrylic platters. Upgraded power supplies - AC to DC mods on the Gyrodec and others ... I'm never sure why anyone singles out the SL1210/1200 and says that it makes no sense to get one and improve it.

[Marco]

I'm never sure why anyone singles out the SL1210/1200 and says that it makes no sense to get one and improve it.

Indeed, Martin - it's a constant frustration of mine, as is the old chestnut of: 'why not just buy a better turntable in the first place?' If I have to explain it (yet) again, I'll top myself!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHH :doh: :doh:

:brickwall: :brickwall:

Marco.

[Macca]

A lot of people have only heard the deck stock - so it is understandable to an extent. The stock mat and headshell are the two immediate drawbacks. Change them, fit a quality cartridge, listen and then give your opinion. If you like what you hear you can mod on from there but you will already have a deck capable of holding its own against at least grand's worth (new) of the competition.

[Marco]

Spot on, dude!

Marco.

[synsei]

You can buy mine if ya like...

[Ali Tait]

Indeed, Martin - it's a constant frustration of mine, as is the old chestnut of: 'why not just buy a better turntable in the first place?' If I have to explain it (yet) again, I'll top myself!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHH :doh: :doh:

:brickwall: :brickwall:


Marco.

G'wan then, explain it again then! :lol:

[walpurgis]

I don't need a Techie. I've had a couple and done a bit of tinkering, but my chunky Toshiba SR-370 DD TT sounds just sublime!

[Roy S]

Will stick with me JVC thanks

[Ali Tait]

And I'll stick wiv me Garrard.

[Clive197]

......Once a Techie, always a Techie....

Marco.


Wasn't that a song title?

[PaulStewart]

I'll stick with my Art Audio Composer, GL78, Dual SP85 (don't ask) the two ex BBC Garrard 401s that are awaiting restoration........ Oh, and the the two techies of course.... :lol:

I would dearly love another JVC though QL 8 was the one I had 10 was the best and the 7 a truly great deck. (the 8 was. 7 motor unit in the 10 plinth) :)

[RobbieGong]

I'll stick with my Art Audio Composer, GL78, Dual SP85 (don't ask) the two ex BBC Garrard 401s that are awaiting restoration........ Oh, and the the two techies of course.... :lol:

I would dearly love another JVC though QL 8 was the one I had 10 was the best and the 7 a truly great deck. (the 8 was. 7 motor unit in the 10 plinth) :)

Hi, I hear you Paul, You've good taste - After my modded techie, I've always fancied a QL7 in black, or the top of the bunch QL10.
( Not forgeting the Sony PS 8750. The Sansui 929 always caught my eye too)

[PaulStewart]

Hi Robbie,

When I was Technical Liaison for JVC in the late 70s, I had the only QL 8 in the UK. We had to send one units of each type in for a BEAB test, the final part of which involved shooting 2kv into the machine. In most of our amps the input fuse and a diode blew and that was all. With the QL10 the speed went wacky and anyway we were supposed to dump all test units. (we did do this, all the high end stuff was "dumped" at my house :whistle: )

So we took the super composite plinth from the 10, married it up with a TT71 from a QL7 and got a QL8 badge out of spares :) The motor units were broadcast units and in Japan these were the big hitters in radio stations not the SP10. Really loved that deck with an original S shaped Hadcock unipivot and a JVC MC1

[RobbieGong]

Hi Robbie,

When I was Technical Liaison for JVC in the late 70s, I had the only QL 8 in the UK. We had to send one units of each type in for a BEAB test, the final part of which involved shooting 2kv into the machine. In most of our amps the input fuse and a diode blew and that was all. With the QL10 the speed went wacky and anyway we were supposed to dump all test units. (we did do this, all the high end stuff was "dumped" at my house :whistle: )

So we took the super composite plinth from the 10, married it up with a TT71 from a QL7 and got a QL8 badge out of spares :) The motor units were broadcast units and in Japan these were the big hitters in radio stations not the SP10. Really loved that deck with an original S shaped Hadcock unipivot and a JVC MC1

Lol - some guys have all the luck ! :)

[Roy S]

and the 7 a truly great deck. (the 8 was. 7 motor unit in the 10 plinth) :)

Wouldn't part with mine for all the tea in China

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/Turntables/68641c14-907d-4236-88ea-47bff285ba41_zpsff3ad6b0.jpg

[Haselsh1]

Upgrading of a turntable by the manufacturer through a naturally progressive path is completely normal. Buying a shedload of random bits and fitting them is not. The manufacturers usually reserve the right to improve their products without letting anyone know. This is perfectly normal and accepted. Buying bits and pieces and fitting them to your own deck is totally different and results in that deck not resembling the original item any longer. I do not doubt that the bits and pieces improve the performance of the deck hundreds of percent as, as a standard deck the item is seriously flawed and therefore needs considerable and careful upgrading. I would love to hear an upgraded SL1210 but unfortunately I have only ever heard my own standard item.

[Macca]

, as a standard deck the item is seriously flawed an.

The chief requirements of a turntable motor unit are that it is well built, speed stable and has good immunity from vibration. An SL1200 is pretty good, even on an absolute scale, in those regards. I appreciate it is easy to get a different impression from various postings but the mods bring tiny incremental improvements, not night and day changes.

[PaulStewart]

Wouldn't part with mine for all the tea in China

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/Turntables/68641c14-907d-4236-88ea-47bff285ba41_zpsff3ad6b0.jpg

Roy, that brings back some very happy memories, I remember having 5 QLA7s in a line at the Harrowgate HiFi Show, 5 different JVC carts and 20 minutes to set the lot up to dem to the public who were about to be let in 'cos some wally had taken all the carts in their headshells off and put them in a trunk for safe keeping and the gone off to see a dealer in Leeds with the bloody key....... When I say happy memories, bittersweet is the word ;) :lol:

[Roy S]

Roy, that brings back some very happy memories, I remember having 5 QLA7s in a line at the Harrowgate HiFi Show, 5 different JVC carts and 20 minutes to set the lot up to dem to the public who were about to be let in 'cos some wally had taken all the carts in their headshells off and put them in a trunk for safe keeping and the gone off to see a dealer in Leeds with the bloody key....... When I say happy memories, bittersweet is the word ;) :lol:

What year would that have been Paul? I was trying to remember when I bought mine from Rush Hifi in Romford, I recall it was around the £300 mark.

[PaulStewart]

What year would that have been Paul? I was trying to remember when I bought mine from Rush Hifi in Romford, I recall it was around the £300 mark.

Rush Hi Fi that's a name from the past, good dealers as I recall. It would have been 78 or 79 I think, I left to set up and run the recording studio at the Rainbow in '80.

[Marco]

Hi Shaun,


Upgrading of a turntable by the manufacturer through a naturally progressive path is completely normal. Buying a shedload of random bits and fitting them is not.


Sure, except that the "random bits" in question, offered by the likes of Mike New, Paul Hynes, Funk and others, are far from being random, but rather are the culmination of many months (in some cases years) of research and development by experienced professionals, who not only are experts in their own field of electronics or engineering, but fundamentally understand how to implement their products successfully into the design of the Technics SL-1200/1210.

If these guys were simply inexperienced 'bodgers/fly-by-nights' then you'd have a valid point, but that's not the case. Furthermore, look at it this way: do the "random bits" supplied by the many respected manufacturers who offer aftermarket modifications for the LP12 (Inspire, Funk, not to mention those from Audioflat, and many more besides) result in the LP12, when fitted with them, automatically becoming an inferior product, compared with the same turntable upgraded through a "naturally progressive path" by Linn?

Or does, say, an OL-modified Rega RB300 or Tecnoarm automatically suffer from the introduction of "random bits" provided by Origin Live and Michell, respectively, and somehow make it 'incorrect' or inferior, compared with the original item?

The answer of course is no. Much would depend on subjective opinion, after the user has listened to the alternatives and formed a conclusion on the matter - and so it is with the numerous aftermarket modifications available for the Technics. However, the key point here is that the Technics is not a 'special case' when it comes to non-manufacturer approved modifications being applied to its design, therefore it is not any more 'pointless' subjecting an SL-1200/1210 to such modifications than doing the same to a Linn or Rega turntable.

I really do hope that this fact will now finally penetrate the minds of the masses!


Buying bits and pieces and fitting them to your own deck is totally different and results in that deck not resembling the original item any longer.


It depends on what you mean by "resembling"? Aesthetically, I'd say that most modified Technics T/Ts essentially still look like Technics T/Ts. Underneath the hood may be a different story, but at the end of the day, what does it matter? Surely the only thing that's important is how it sounds, not that you have an entirely original turntable and/or one whose performance evolution has been derived through following a path stipulated by the manufacturer?

I'm afraid when people worry about that sort of stuff it makes me question their ability to think for themselves, make their own decisions, and trust their ears, as opposed to being spoon-fed an 'official' upgrade path by a commercial manufacturer, which often locks the user into a very expensive and ultimately fruitless journey of 'box-swapping'.

At least with the Technics, no one single manufacturer has the monopoly on providing what is considered as the 'correct' or 'ultimate' upgrade path, which forces Technics users to think for themselves, apply some lateral thinking, and thus escape from being inside a self-imposed comfort zone! ;)

I think the problem is, Shaun (and there's no shame or harm in this), you're just someone who prefers a 'ready-made solution', provided by a specific manufacturer, (the 'safe' choice, as it were) instead of pushing the boundaries and seeing just how much 'bang you can get for your buck' by maximising the full potential of a given design. As they say, each to his or her own - both approaches are valid :)

Marco.

[Marco]

The chief requirements of a turntable motor unit are that it is well built, speed stable and has good immunity from vibration. An SL1200 is pretty good, even on an absolute scale, in those regards.


Agreed. However, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll like the sound of it... ;)


I appreciate it is easy to get a different impression from various postings but the mods bring tiny incremental improvements, not night and day changes.

On that, I strongly disagree (you wouldn't know as you haven't applied any major modifications to your T/T), although I suppose it depends on what is meant by "night and day changes". I guess that sort of difference would realistically only occur with a major speaker upgrade or when moving to a new house, and thus putting your system into a totally different room.

However, if we replace the hyperbole and the description of improvements as being "night and day" with, say, 'fundamentally significant and highly effective', then that is most certainly an accurate description of what happens when one fits the likes of a Mike New bearing or Paul Hynes PSU to a Technics SL-1200/1210.

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Shaun,

Sure, except that the "random bits" in question, offered by the likes of Mike New, Paul Hynes, Funk and others, are far from being random, but rather are the culmination of many months (in some cases years) of research and development by experienced professionals, who not only are experts in their own field of electronics or engineering, but fundamentally understand how to implement their products successfully into the design of the Technics SL-1200/1210.

If these guys were simply inexperienced 'bodgers/fly-by-nights' then you'd have a valid point, but that's not the case. Furthermore, look at it this way: do the "random bits" supplied by the many respected manufacturers who offer aftermarket modifications for the LP12 (Inspire, Funk, not to mention those from Audioflat, and many more besides) result in the LP12, when fitted with them, automatically becoming an inferior product, compared with the same turntable upgraded through a "naturally progressive path" by Linn?

Or does, say, an OL-modified Rega RB300 or Tecnoarm automatically suffer from the introduction of "random bits" provided by Origin Live and Michell, respectively, and somehow make it 'incorrect' or inferior, compared with the original item?

The answer of course is no. Much would depend on subjective opinion, after the user has listened to the alternatives and formed a conclusion on the matter - and so it is with the numerous aftermarket modifications available for the Technics. However, the key point here is that the Technics is not a 'special case' when it comes to non-manufacturer approved modifications being applied to its design, therefore it is not any more 'pointless' subjecting an SL-1200/1210 to such modifications than doing the same to a Linn or Rega turntable.

I really do hope that this fact will now finally penetrate the minds of the masses!



It depends on what you mean by "resembling"? Aesthetically, I'd say that most modified Technics T/Ts essentially still look like Technics T/Ts. Underneath the hood may be a different story, but at the end of the day, what does it matter? Surely the only thing that's important is how it sounds, not that you have an entirely original turntable and/or one whose performance evolution has been derived through following a path stipulated by the manufacturer?

I'm afraid when people worry about that sort of stuff it makes me question their ability to think for themselves, make their own decisions, and trust their ears, as opposed to being spoon-fed an 'official' upgrade path by a commercial manufacturer, which often locks the user into a very expensive and ultimately fruitless journey of 'box-swapping'.

At least with the Technics, no one single manufacturer has the monopoly on providing what is considered as the 'correct' or 'ultimate' upgrade path, which forces Technics users to think for themselves, apply some lateral thinking, and thus escape from being inside a self-imposed comfort zone! ;)

I think the problem is, Shaun (and there's no shame or harm in this), you're just someone who prefers a 'ready-made solution', provided by a specific manufacturer, (the 'safe' choice, as it were) instead of pushing the boundaries and seeing just how much 'bang you can get for your buck' by maximising the full potential of a given design. As they say, each to his or her own - both approaches are valid :)

Marco.

I'm rather surprised that there has been no response to this :scratch:

I presume we all agree, then?

Marco.

[Clive197]

I'm rather surprised that there has been no response to this :scratch:

I presume we all agree, then?

Marco.

Can't speak for anybody else, but I agree with you.:)

[Oldpinkman]

The chief requirements of a turntable motor unit are that it is well built, speed stable and has good immunity from vibration. An SL1200 is pretty good, even on an absolute scale, in those regards. I appreciate it is easy to get a different impression from various postings but the mods bring tiny incremental improvements, not night and day changes.

I think this is reasonable, although as I think Marco has subsequently commented, it depends on your hyperbole scale. You have of course described the motor unit. And I for one would agree that the biggest change to the record player is to sort the arm out. Having listened to 2 other arms on the deck, the standard arm, and a funked standard arm, the 2 "non-standards" were clearly identifiable, possessing their own distinct characteristics. The funked Technics was a disappointment, and "family of" the standard arm. Thereafter, changes to the motor unit will have less obvious effects - the benefits of which are perhaps only apparent when everything else is sorted and you can chase down those subtleties. Mat very obvious, and decent bang for buck. Platter is fairly obvious - both funks (the only 2 non-standards I have heard) being quite obviously different from the standard, but serious money (like why not save it and buy a different TT!). I'm guessing now, but the bearing is not going to make a huge difference to sound (unless the standard was worn) but the MN will allow his heavyweight early platters to be used. The new funk will be stable and hard - so good at transmitting energy away from the platter. If I were keeping one rather than having it as a hostage while my PT was fixed, or doing AK a favour and giving him a 2nd opinion on his mods, my feeling is I would look to isolation next.

But my main point is your comments relate to the motor unit, and this bears out my little obsession that, whilst far from irrelevant, the motor unit makes a less obvious contribution to the record player sound than the arm. :)

[Marco]

I'm guessing now...


Indeed, and unfortunately, it shows.... ;)


...but the bearing is not going to make a huge difference to sound (unless the standard was worn)


Not so (and I'm speaking from practical experience, not guessing), upgrading from the stock Technics bearing to the MN one produces significant improvements, in terms of overall noise reduction, and therefore music is reproduced in a much more believable and lifelike way. Trust me, the effect is not subtle!

These improvements occur simply because the stock Technics bearing, whilst decent, was built to a price. Mike's, on the other hand wasn't, and has been engineered to a much higher standard, improving mechanical integrity along the way, resulting in a far superior item, all round. You only have to hold an MN bearing and a stock Technics one in your hand to appreciate that they are two very different animals! :exactly:

The bearings I've seen on some £10k turntables aren't as well made as Mike's...


But my main point is your comments relate to the motor unit, and this bears out my little obsession that, whilst far from irrelevant, the motor unit makes a less obvious contribution to the record player sound than the arm.

Sorry, Richard, I totally disagree. The superb (highly accurate) Quartz-controlled D/D motor unit is the whole raison d'être behind modifying the Technics - a motor unit that would cost many thousands of pounds to produce today. Without that, modifying the Technics, in the way many of us do here, would be a complete waste of time. It is because the motor unit is *so* good, that transforming the Techy into a genuinely world class T/T is possible.

No tonearm in the world could exert a similar influence.

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

It is because the motor unit is *so* good, that transforming the Techy into a genuinely world class T/T is possible.

No tonearm in the world could exert a similar influence.

Marco.

Not guessing now. Direct experience. If you take an SL1200, a Pink Triangle, a Funk LSD and a Funk Saphire, and you put on them a Funk FXR and Funk F5 - you can hear the arm on each turntable. Whilst the record players sound different for changing the motor unit, (an in particular in that set, the stock Technics is quite poor) the character of the arm is evident across the range. I guess this all comes back to balance and system matching but the arms character is very evident. Perhaps it just reflects my recent experience - when you look around most people try different arms on a turntable. I have been (not deliberately) trying different turntables under the same arm!

It wasn't meant to knock the Technics Direct Drive, which is a perfectly competent motor. Perhaps you misinterpreted my use of "motor unit". Harking back to HiFi Choice reviews I meant the turntable bit of a record player rather than the arm bit of a record player. I didn't mean the motor, like the adored DD on the SL1200 or the premotec I am fitting to my PT. I meant the bit of the record player that isn't the arm or the cartridge. "Turntable" is often confused with "whole record player" - perhaps not so much on this forum, but in general usage. In that context, you have changed most of the "motor unit" just keeping the motor. But whilst platters, bearings, feet, plinths, lids etc all affect the sound somewhat, it is , as Martin suggested, relatively subtle at each stage :)

And the motor, the beloved SL1200 DD is good - but it only spins the record at the right speed! ;) And there has been a fair bit of recent confusion about whether it can do that at anything other than the finest balance of mass/inertia. Opinions varying erratically over time from the same users.:scratch:

[Macca]

yes I was using motor unit in it's accepted sense rather than referring to the actual, DD quartz locked motor. Apologies for any confusion.

Also would like to point out that if the deck is susceptible to vibration and has significant speed variation then you would be wasting your time trying different arms on it, no matter how good they were.