View Full Version : The Mike New ETP Platter
I've had the chance to sample Mike New's competitor to the Funk Firm platter for the Technics SL-12xx series direct drive turntable, the 'ETP'. This platter is made of a very dense plastic called ETP (Engineering Thermo Plastic) or, commercially, Delrin. It's a precision material that lends itself well to machining and shaping. The ETP is a one-piece design with no separate mat required. This could help cost considerations when comparing with other platters that require a mat. There is a slight indent for the record label, otherwise the surface is flat bar the two threaded holes for inserting bolts to ease lifting the platter off the bearing. The top half of the platter has an exact 12" diameter, which really helps when lifting and placing records; the bottom half is sized to fit the recess in the chassis. The finish is very smart in black and there is sufficient depth even for those, like me, who have fitted the base plate modification to strengthen the bearing mount, lifting it a few mm in the process. Delrin is, by design, an inert material with great internal damping. When I strike it while in position on the bearing, it sounds as dead as a very dead thing.
Swapping over the magnet assembly to the new platter, things are a tight fit and I found it best to align the trailing edge of a tooth on the speed sensor cog exactly with the red dot before tightening down with the three hex bolts provided, using them to pull it into the recess. I also applied a little Vaseline to the rim of the magnet assembly to make future removal a little easier. Another dab went onto the taper of the Mike New bearing (per Mike's advice) before lifting the platter over the spindle and dropping it in place. Fit is excellent with absolutely no movement or rocking between taper and platter.
The ETP is heavier than the Funk at 2.3kg versus 1.4kg for the Funk / Achromat or 2kg for the stock platter. Rotational momentum is also about the same as stock, judging by the brake adjustment required to get the platter to stop, which was dead centre of the potentiometer travel in my Mk. II. This is a handy reckoner for any given platter, the original metal MN platter requiring almost the full adjustment travel to get the motor to stop it dead.
So to the sound: well, I'm officially impressed. The ETP sounds to my ears better overall and more exciting than the Funk platter with Achromat. The improvements are specifically in the upper midrange / lower treble area, where there is more detail, edge definition and overall clarity. In fact, that’s it in a nutshell. These attributes make the whole very much more enjoyable, with a sense of verve and musicality that’s infectious. It doesn’t make a bad recording sound good, but at least I hear more of what went in even if it’s horribly limited. Take a good recording, however, and I am definitely hearing more than I’ve heard before. Vocal harmonies are better separated, allowing the individual voices to be differentiated. Plucked acoustic and electric string have a degree of edge definition I've not heard before. Struck drums have more shape to them. This is not a brighter sound, it's more that there is tonal shading in that all-important upper midrange area where things were in retrospect a little grey. Dynamics are helped because of the better-defined shape of transient notes, not something my Technics lacks but it's always very welcome. Overall, it makes a very compelling sound indeed and I find myself pulling more and more vinyl from my shelves.
The ETP platter is a really superbly engineered product, Mike - thank you. I'm buying this one.
http://www.mikenewaudio.com/
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2811/10922165466_d609c35217_b.jpg
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2828/10922230876_490510a6c8_b.jpg
The ETP platter is a really superbly engineered product, Mike - thank you. I'm buying this one.
Hahahaha - that was quick!!! :eek: :scratch: :lol:
Have you tried it yet with the Achromat? I'd be curious to know what effect that has.
Marco.
Interesting review in that no mat was required Martin. I have always thought a hard material may sound better (oyaide mat as an example)
and a lot of the higher end turntables have delrin platters.
I hope Marcos platter turns up soon!
David, did your Techy have an ETP platter fitted when I heard it at your bake off? And if so, did it have a mat on it? I can't remember.
Marco.
David, did your Techy have an ETP platter fitted when I heard it at your bake off? And if so, did it have a mat on it? I can't remember.
Marco.
It had the vantage platter on chief with NO mat, just vinyl direct onto copper, am I alone in thinking mats are not needed here?
Dunno, but I suspect that the results will (as always) be system-dependent. Thanks for the clarification, though :)
Marco.
I hope Marcos platter turns up soon!
Indeed... I can promise you one thing, though - I won't be reaching such a definitive conclusion so quickly! ;)
That, incidentally, is no slight on Martin, as he obviously felt that in his system the improvement with the ETP was so obvious, he had to have it. However, I tend to leave things more on a 'slow burn' before conclusively making up my mind on anything in audio.
Marco.
Indeed... I can promise you one thing, though - I won't be reaching such a definitive conclusion so quickly! ;)
That, incidentally, is no slight on Martin, as he obviously felt that in his system the improvement with the ETP was so obvious, he had to have it. However, I tend to leave things more on a 'slow burn' before conclusively making up my mind on anything in audio.
Marco.
That's you, most of us can here instantaneously if something is better! :ner:
Only messin of course :)
So how long is a slow burn? The platter is 30 days to make up your mind
That'll be enough! :)
Marco.
Hahahaha - that was quick!!! :eek: :scratch: :lol:
Have you tried it yet with the Achromat? I'd be curious to know what effect that has.
Not really, I've had enough time to form a positive opinion that isn't going to change. The ETP works better on its own, I tried it with the Achromat but that then goes back a step towards the Funk sound.
So how would you describe the 'Funk sound' in comparison? :)
Marco.
prestonchipfryer
18-11-2013, 20:11
Having had a MN ETP platter now for 18 months I am not surprised Martin likes it. Mine has a label recess and I have tried various mats, Achromat, Oyaide, felt and rubber. I didn't like the Achromat as it recessed midrange somewhat. The Oyaide works very well but also a felt mat, surprisingly, also works well for me.
Using just platter without a mat is also possible but I found that bass was a lot stronger, not boomy, though with some recordings far too strong for my tastes. Having said that most classical recordings, mostly symphonic, were served well with a naked platter.
I am looking forward to Marcos findings and David Brooks opinion.
John
Interesting, John... All I can say is that I'm glad I pushed for the ETP platter to be auditioned in this way. It wouldn't have happened otherwise! ;)
Marco.
Just to correct the information in Martins original posting:
ETP (Engineering Thermo Plastics) this is not a material, it is a generic term applied to all thermoplastics that have good structural properties suitable for more demanding performance criteria.
Delrin is a brand name of DuPont and this brand has approximately 20% of the market for the material, which is Polyoxymethylene (POM) sometimes called Acetal.
If you look at a recycling logo on a moulded product it will say POM.
As DuPont is primarily American the majority of UK users will use a different brand name to Delrin.
So it is more meaningful and universal to say this platter is made of POM or Acetal. ;)
Wakefield Turntables
18-11-2013, 20:43
Martin,
How do you find the bass? One of the benefits of the mixed Cu/Al platter was hefty bass, does this new mat lose any?
RobbieGong
18-11-2013, 21:06
Hi Martin, Reading your review it was apparent to me you knew what you were talking about ;). Your findings were mine to a T. The ETP gives music a presentation that simply sounds right ! and as you say whilst not making bad recordings sound better which is a good sign. It was the icing on the cake for me in so much as making me realise what all the other upgrades (Mike New Bearing, arm, external psu, Isonoes etc) combined had ultimately achieved. Do me a favour Martin - Could you, if you get the chance try the ETP with the softer 3mm stock mat. I and the guy who first reviewed Mikes ETP found that combination to be best to our ears. I'm glad you've joined the ETP club, along with myself, John (Prestonchipfryer) and others, it's a lovely well thought out and well engineered upgrade platter for sure, you just get a sense it's gonna be good when you have it in your hands, and it sure does once installed and all the usual arm set up is done. :)
Blessings
Rob
Oh Andrew, I can tell you that again the bass is just right, not incorrectly lightweight but not over emphasised either - just right. If the track is bassy you'll hear it proper if it isnt you wont get more than is, if you know what i mean !
Mike_New
18-11-2013, 22:43
Wow seems that all of a sudden the ETP platter is now the one!!
In fact I have sold about 20 of them spread around the world since I first announced it about 18 months ago. It would seem that a sort of secondary opinion/advice network has grown around it in that time, with orders coming in from various countries in Europe the US and Canada
and of course my part of the globe.
For those that may be contemplating trying to do the same:
The matterial is indeed a variety of Delrin the generic term for a whole range of Acetals, Generally made by DuPont in Germany.
However this is a particular very high grade formula from the US made specifically for aero space, mining and chemical applications that has no voids and can be machined to high accuracy.
Wow seems that all of a sudden the ETP platter is now the one!!
In fact I have sold about 20 of them spread around the world since I first announced it about 18 months ago. It would seem that a sort of secondary opinion/advice network has grown around it in that time, with orders coming in from various countries in Europe the US and Canada
and of course my part of the globe.
For those that may be contemplating trying to do the same:
The matterial is indeed a variety of Delrin the generic term for a whole range of Acetals, Generally made by DuPont in Germany.
However this is a particular very high grade formula from the US made specifically for aero space, mining and chemical applications that has no voids and can be machined to high accuracy.
Trying to copy your platter Mike or indeed make one from scratch is not for the feint hearted, I looked at Martins before I sent it and it's full of clever bits of engineering and precise set up is required as you well know, I doubt if anyone can come up with something that beats it anytime soon, if ever. The fact you sold 20 and AOS have suddenly become interested in it (which is 100% solely down to Audio Al) is good news for all Techy owners worldwide as it will now be more widely known as the platter to beat! With your bearing as well the Techy has truly come of age!
Just to correct the information in Martins original posting:
ETP (Engineering Thermo Plastics) this is not a material, it is a generic term applied to all thermoplastics that have good structural properties suitable for more demanding performance criteria.
Delrin is a brand name of DuPont and this brand has approximately 20% of the market for the material, which is Polyoxymethylene (POM) sometimes called Acetal.
If you look at a recycling logo on a moulded product it will say POM.
As DuPont is primarily American the majority of UK users will use a different brand name to Delrin.
So it is more meaningful and universal to say this platter is made of POM or Acetal. ;)
The first job I ever had involved stress testing strips of Amcel Acetal Copolymer and other plastics produced by American Celanese. By f*&k it was boring.
Sat in a tech lab looking out on a warehouse full of cement sized sacks of the stuff... pellets were generally everywhere.
It didn't last long... a summer job whilst still at school.
The thing is at the time that company really was producing some ground breaking plastics. Think the introduction of the plastic jug kettle. My father clinched the first sales deals with Kenwood etc and was responsible for setting up the first UK Amcel branch with a couple of other ex-ICI dudes if I remember correctly.
Yeh, Kenwood and Russell Hobbs both used Acetal on their first plastic Kettles (I designed a few for Russell Hobbs) but the material pre dates them by several decades. Acetal has some good properties and is easy to machine so not suprised to see Mike has used it on his ETP platter. DuPont developed some of the great materials, including Nylon, where the name is derived from their New York and London Laboratory's who jointly made the same break through.
Mike_New
19-11-2013, 01:55
It really is very thick oil!!!!
Oldpinkman
19-11-2013, 07:10
Martin. Is that no warble now at 45rpm?
Or is warble something you can live with for the other benefits?
Using just platter without a mat is also possible but I found that bass was a lot stronger, not boomy, though with some recordings far too strong for my tastes. Having said that most classical recordings, mostly symphonic, were served well with a naked platter.
Interesting, John. I haven't found that at all. Bass is well defined and balanced in my system.
So it is more meaningful and universal to say this platter is made of POM or Acetal. ;)
Thanks, Ken. I was going to mention POM but thought it was one acronym too many!
The fact you sold 20 and AOS have suddenly become interested in it (which is 100% solely down to Audio Al) is good news for all Techy owners worldwide as it will now be more widely known as the platter to beat!
Lol - you do get rather over-excited sometimes, dude, and have the propensity to lose focus of the facts! :D
Firstly, Mike was selling his platters (ETP and aluminum composite) direct to people here long before you got involved.
Secondly, you and Mike wouldn't be working together in the first place, in any capacity (including you selling his platter to anyone here), if it wasn't for me asking Mike to appoint you as the UK distributor for his products, when he was a bit disheartened with sales drying up for his bearings, via their promotion soley on AoS.
You might have been talking about the platter between you for a while without finalising anything, but you wouldn't have a working partnership now, but for my intervention. It would be nice if you remembered that and had the courtesy to acknowledge it.
Thirdly, John (prestonchipfryer) was, to my knowledge, the first person on AoS to buy an ETP platter, so he must get the greatest credit for being the original one to bring the ETP to the attention of the members of AoS. I think that Rob (RobbieGong) was next to buy one and sing its praises.
Therefore, no disrespect to Al (he knows I lurves him, lol), but the daftee hasn't even fitted his platter yet, or commented in any way as to its efficacy, so I'm at a loss to see how it is 100% solely down to him why the ETP is now getting the recognition it deserves!! :eyebrows:
The reason why that is happening now, and why "AoS have suddently become interested in it", without blowing my own trumpet, is because I asked Mike to send either Martin or me (via you as his UK distributor), an ETP platter for auditioning. I pushed for that to happen because I suspected that the ETP would be very good, and because I thought it was unfair that Mike's 'other platter', as it were, wasn't getting the recognition/promotion it deserved because neither Martin nor I had had the opportunity to try it.
Of course, now Martin (whose views are widely respected, and rightly so) has tried it, likes it and has bought one, reviewing it very favourably here, the situation is rather different! When I get my ETP platter, and if I feel the same way as Martin does, and buy one, and we both proceed to promote it on the forum from now on, *then* it will be widely known as the platter to beat..... ;)
Marco.
Martin. Is that no warble now at 45rpm?
Or is warble something you can live with for the other benefits?
If you caught the point I was making about platter weights and the braking adjustment, the ETP has about the same rotational momentum as the Technics stock platter. I could hear no warble from speed correction artifacts at either speed.
MikeMusic
19-11-2013, 07:51
Be interesting to compare your rig now with mine and the Funk/Oyaide combination
Be interesting to compare your rig now with mine and the Funk/Oyaide combination
Yes, it will. Why don't you come over to mine this time?
prestonchipfryer
19-11-2013, 08:22
Interesting, John. I haven't found that at all. Bass is well defined and balanced in my system.
Martin, this was using a Sumiko bps and I have just fitted my 2m black and played without a mat. Bass is now a little leaner. So it was probably the cartridge more than the platter.
prestonchipfryer
19-11-2013, 08:26
Thirdly, John (prestonchipfryer) was, to my knowledge, the first person on AoS to buy an ETP platter, so he must get the greatest credit for being the original one to bring the ETP to the attention of the members of AoS.
Marco.
Marco, I'm sure there is some info, re ETP platter, I put on AoS 18 months or so but I'm blowed if I can locate it. :)
MikeMusic
19-11-2013, 08:49
Yes, it will. Why don't you come over to mine this time?
Sounds good. A Sunday in December ?
Fancy trying the Isis against the Ayre too ?
Oldpinkman
19-11-2013, 08:51
If you caught the point I was making about platter weights and the braking adjustment, the ETP has about the same rotational momentum as the Technics stock platter. I could hear no warble from speed correction artifacts at either speed.
Cool. I can stop wasting my time listening to far more Frankie Goes to Hollywood (Ferry across the Mersey - 12" 45rpm) than is good for the health at Arthurs factory listening for a warble that manifestly isn't there. The confusion was because the Funk strata and Technics platter, and MN ETP have about the same mass and rotational momentum, but you had reported to Arthur that you could hear a warble at 45rpm on the strata, and actually described hearing constant over correction. You have now changed your mind, and we can move on.
My personal interest was only in the difference in the materials for my PT, and so listening for warble on a turntable I never plan to own, was a chore on behalf of a mate. I am relieved to be relieved of it ;)
you had reported to Arthur that you could hear a warble at 45rpm on the strata, and actually described hearing constant over correction. You have now changed your mind, and we can move on.
No Richard, that is not the case at all. I first heard the speed over-correction issue with the Mike New heavy metal platter, more so at 45rpm. I also reported that I could just hear a speed instability with the Mk. II Funk (what you seem to be calling the Strata). Those are both heavy platters, over-stressing the motor correction circuit. I haven't "changed my mind" about anything.
So how would you describe the 'Funk sound' in comparison?
Simply the reverse. The ETP restores the slightly missing upper midrange / lower treble. Therefore the Funk is slightly recessed in that area.
Marco, I'm sure there is some info, re ETP platter, I put on AoS 18 months or so but I'm blowed if I can locate it. :)
yes I remember seeing that John, it may have been in the turntable thread I had running, its not very photogenic though is it,
a chunk of black thermoplastic to give it it's proper description :)
maybe mike could laser etch some pink writing on :lol:
No comment on my post #25, David? :rolleyes:
Marco.
Sounds good. A Sunday in December ?
Fancy trying the Isis against the Ayre too ?
Can I play, too? :carrot: :carrot:
Marco.
Marco, I'm sure there is some info, re ETP platter, I put on AoS 18 months or so but I'm blowed if I can locate it. :)
I'll have a mooch around the archives, dude, and see if I can find it :cool:
Marco.
MikeMusic
19-11-2013, 10:37
Can I play, too? :carrot: :carrot:
Marco.
Do you have anything interesting ?
:)
Can I play, too? :carrot: :carrot:
I am desperately running out of available dates before Chrimbo. I think it would have to be Sunday 15th Dec - how does that suit you both?
Do you have anything interesting ?
:)
Not too much gear, dudes! Platters and CD players will keep us very busy.
MikeMusic
19-11-2013, 10:53
I am desperately running out of available dates before Chrimbo. I think it would have to be Sunday 15th Dec - how does that suit you both?
Good for me. Should have all the gutters clear by then
:)
Oldpinkman
19-11-2013, 11:15
No Richard, that is not the case at all. I first heard the speed over-correction issue with the Mike New heavy metal platter, more so at 45rpm. I also reported that I could just hear a speed instability with the Mk. II Funk (what you seem to be calling the Strata). Those are both heavy platters, over-stressing the motor correction circuit. I haven't "changed my mind" about anything.
Now I don't have either platter to hand. But according to Arthur Funk 1 (acrylic) weighs 1.4Kg and Funk 2 (strata) weighs 2.2Kg. And according to you Funk 1 weighs 1.4Kg and ETP weighs 2.3kg. And from the picture you have posted, the mass on ETP is distributed round the edge of the platter, (as it is to a lesser degree on Funk 1) where on Funk 2 it is pretty much evenly distributed across the surface. And you agreed, with regard to record weights that mass near the hub is largely irrelevant to rotational momentum - and by implication that mass at the edge is much more significant to rotational momentum.
So, keeping this real simple, ETP is a bit heavier, and has at least a bit more rotational momentum than Funk 2, but has no warble, and yet Funk 2 warbles. Have I got that right, or have I been fed an erroneous fact, or drawn an erroneous conclusion? :scratch:
My point is, I could hear no warble. I had the full adult dose of Frankie Goes to Hollywood (and my Dvorak 9th) and could hear plenty of differences between the platters but no warble. And whilst I remain interested in auditioning the 2 platters in my own system regarding my decision to modify the PT, if I don't have to do the warble test, I would rather do that on a couple of Funk Saphires than a couple of Technics 1200's. :)
What you maybe don't know is that there was a misalignment of the sensor cog when Arthur sent the Strata to me. I had to work blind to get it lined up and I was never quite happy with the speed stability. The Funk II did sound a little unsteady, and at 33rpm. I can't say it clearer than that. I was not happy that the platter speed sensor cog was properly lined up with the sensor coil and I did speak to Arthur about it.
Oh yes, just remembered: when starting up, the motor made odd squeaks until the speed settled. I have never heard that with any other platter. I did tell Arthur that, too.
Oldpinkman
19-11-2013, 11:49
What you maybe don't know is that there was a misalignment of the sensor cog when Arthur sent the Strata to me. I had to work blind to get it lined up and I was never quite happy with the speed stability. The Funk II did sound a little unsteady, and at 33rpm. I can't say it clearer than that. I was not happy that the platter speed sensor cog was properly lined up with the sensor coil and I did speak to Arthur about it.
Oh yes, just remembered: when starting up, the motor made odd squeaks until the speed settled. I have never heard that with any other platter. I did tell Arthur that, too.
I saw the email. You described the sensor problem and squeaks, and noted that you had fixed it. You also noted that you would put both platters on the scales. You heard an "imprecision" and ascribed it to the weight of the platter and the fact that the servo circuit expects a lighter platter. Given that you now are satisfied that the 2.3Kg ETP doesn't suffer that effect, unless I have been mis-informed about platter weights, I take it you have changed your mind about mass being the cause of whatever it was you heard. Although you also described the platter as spinning up and braking like the original Mike New platter (again - I don't have one, but I believe he claims 10Kg), and again you appear not to have repeated that comment regarding the ETP platter which is a whiff heavier than the Funk 2 you were using.
I am not too bothered about any of the detail, as long as my core conclusions were valid - vis the platters weigh about the same (2.2kg v 2.3Kg) and mass is no longer considered to be an issue. Accordingly I can focus on my selfish interests and tell Arthur that there is no warble to worry about. But he should be more careful about sending half finished product with squeaks and misaligned sensors out just to find out if the remachined hub fitted a non-standard bearing.
Either way - I don't have to serve a further FGTH sentence, cos there's just so much Ferry across the Mersey that a chap can stand! ;)
I am desperately running out of available dates before Chrimbo. I think it would have to be Sunday 15th Dec - how does that suit you both?
Should be ok for me, Martin :)
It would be interesting and also useful to get a collective view of what the ETP platter is doing on three slightly different, but heavily modded Techies, in a system that ably shows up the subtlest of differences (and to hear where the Funk 1 platter is lacking, to your ears) - plus no doubt as usual, listening to an array of excellent music! :cool:
Marco.
Should be ok for me, Martin :)
Done!
I take it you have changed your mind about mass being the cause of whatever it was you heard.
I simply don't know as I feel my session with the Strata was sadly inconclusive. I would like to have heard it working properly. Whether it was the sensor only, a combination of the sensor and weight distribution or something else that the motor didn't like, I'm not prepared to guess at. I will say that there is a lot of mass (glass) at the very extremity of the platter so it could just possibly be a combination of bad sensor alignment and rotational momentum.
Whatever, I'm sad that I wasn't able to give the Strata a proper evaluation. I did form an opinion based on what I did hear, but it would be unfair to go into any further detail.
Oldpinkman
19-11-2013, 12:31
I simply don't know as I feel my session with the Strata was sadly inconclusive. I would like to have heard it working properly. Whether it was the sensor only, a combination of the sensor and weight distribution or something else that the motor didn't like, I'm not prepared to guess at. I will say that there is a lot of mass (glass) at the very extremity of the platter so it could just possibly be a combination of bad sensor alignment and rotational momentum.
Whatever, I'm sad that I wasn't able to give the Strata a proper evaluation. I did form an opinion based on what I did hear, but it would be unfair to go into any further detail.
Oh bugger. Sounds like I'm gonna have to take a Techie instead of a Saphire on the 29th :(
Are we talking about the same platter? In essence it is 2 flat sheets of glass stuck together with his magic glue, as shown in my earlier photos (I won't re-post here, cos that must surely be close to thread-crapping - but you've seen what I posted for Arthur previously). Granted the version he had me listening to had the lettering on upside down, but it was otherwise the same. There is therefore no glass or mass at the extremity - it is uniform across the whole surface. Granted the achromat is more towards the centre and is not at the extremity but they weigh about 100gm at most. So ignoring the achromat, the glass is NOT at the very extremity. By contrast - the ETP - again based on the photo you have posted, appears to have a big heavy rim round it (I assume it is not the same thickness across the surface as the visible thickness round the edge)
Am I being really stupid? :scratch:
As I remember it (it's all packaged up now awaiting collection), it was one big round glass plate - or a sandwich - which reached right to the edge of the deck's recess, i.e. wider than 12". It did have the 'funky' lettering and there was an Achromat bonded to its top surface.
I'll have a mooch around the archives, dude, and see if I can find it :cool:
...and here it is (dated 2/3/12) pics on page 2: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?16349-New-MN-Platter
And Rob's thread when he fist got his ETP (dated 16/11/12): http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?21700-My-Mike-New-ETP-Composite-Platter-Has-Arrived
If only Martin knew then just how good it was........! :eek: ;)
Marco.
Well indeed. I've made a note to take note...
MikeMusic
19-11-2013, 14:40
...and here it is (dated 2/3/12) pics on page 2: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?16349-New-MN-Platter
And Rob's thread when he fist got his ETP (dated 16/11/12): http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?21700-My-Mike-New-ETP-Composite-Platter-Has-Arrived
If only Martin knew then just how good it was........! :eek: ;)
Marco.
The Secret in Plain Sight.........
Must try to keep up
prestonchipfryer
19-11-2013, 15:39
Thanks Marco. :)
No worries, dude. It's important that credit goes to where it's due, and Rob and you were the first ones on AoS to use and recommend the ETP platter :)
Marco.
So, back to the ETP platter.
I noticed last night, after playing some epic vinyl (Van Morrison - Common One, Supertramp - Crime of the Century, Dire Straits S/T, Genesis - A Trick of the Tail) that I am really noticing the difference in the acoustic 'envelope' of each recording. By that I mean that which differentiates each one and makes them sound different. It's not that I haven't heard this before, but it's much more starkly evident than I've known until now.
I intended to play with record weights last night but got too tired. I shall try my Bruil weight versus the Stillpoints tonight and see how the ETP responds to each.
RobbieGong
20-11-2013, 13:15
So, back to the ETP platter.
I noticed let night, after playing some epic vinyl (Van Morrison - Common One, Supertramp - Crime of the Century, Dire Straits S/T, Genesis - A Trick of the Tail) that I am really noticing the difference in the acoustic 'envelope' of each recording. By that I mean that which differentiates each one and makes them sound different. It's not that I haven't heard this before, but it's much more starkly evident than I've known until now.
I intended to play with record weights last night but got too tired. I shall try my Bruil weight versus the Stillpoints tonight and see how the ETP responds to each.
Exactly Martin - My findings to a T. The difference in recordings is so evident which made me realise just how good this thing is alongside all the other proper mods combined. I mean recordings sounding 'individual' makes sense when things are 'right'. If you thought your system sounded good / right before ?!! ..................... Glad you're feeling the joy :)
prestonchipfryer
20-11-2013, 13:21
That is exactly what I have found also. And the amount of detail recovered is astounding. Familiar recordings often reveal things not heard before.
RobbieGong
20-11-2013, 13:40
That is exactly what I have found also. And the amount of detail recovered is astounding. Familiar recordings often reveal things not heard before.
Especially with the ole 'detail retrieval daddy' 2M Black on board too eh John! lol :eyebrows:
Especially with the ole 'detail retrieval daddy' 2M Black
LOL! The Shelter isn't too shabby in that area, either.
prestonchipfryer
20-11-2013, 16:35
Especially with the ole 'detail retrieval daddy' 2M Black on board too eh John! lol :eyebrows:
So true Rob, so true! :)
Mike_New
20-11-2013, 21:45
No worries, dude. It's important that credit goes to where it's due, and Rob and you were the first ones on AoS to use and recommend the ETP platter :)
Marco.
Hi Folks
I feel that I should correct one point concerning who was first.
If you all remember; the first ETP Platter which I produced was in off white (cream) which everyone opined was not aesthetic for the SL
I then switched to black. However this Platter was purchased by a fellow in Melbourne OZ, at the beginning of 2010, about three months or more before John purchased his, (he was going to come out to OZ to collect it.)
He did not want to become involved in any forums as an active contributer so I published his evaluation under my name credited to him
which many folks read including John and many others.
Nice one, Mike. Thanks for the clarification. I think it's good that word is getting out now more about how excellent your ETP platter is :)
Quite simply, Martin or I couldn't comment on it before because we hadn't used one. In that respect, I look forward to having a listen and reporting my findings when my own sample arrives.
Incidentally, have you ever thought about producing Delrin turntable mats (or basically some from the same material from which you currently make the ETP platter)?
I think those could be prove to be very effective and an excellent (and potentially popular) addition to your product portfolio (and also that of David's) :cool:
Marco.
Mike_New
21-11-2013, 00:19
The big problem of producing mats from the matterial I use is that you idealy need a vacuum chuck to hold it whilst machining. It is too thin to hold in a conventional chuck, or to clamp onto a face plate with bolts as I do with my platters.
The sheets, in any thickness of this matterial are not totally flat, when making the Platters I have to carefully mahcine both sides and leave them to relax for 24Hrs before completing the detail finish machining.
I have some ideas on the subject, but again how many people are going to commit to getting one??? for the amount of effort that may be involved in solving the problem. always the eternal commercial equation!!
What I am investigating is the provision of a 1mm dished surface across the 300mm diameter to accomodate warped records.
I will report on this next week.
Thanks for the info, Mike, which is noted. The material is obviously a ball-ache to work with...!
My thinking behind this, however, is that if Delrin (or exactly whatever material the ETP is made from) is as sonically ideal as has been reported, and indeed as many users of the ETP are finding, when fitted with a label recess, few aftermarket mats used in conjunction with the platter provide a discernible upgrade, then it should follow that the material would make an excellent mat in its own right.
This would give people who can't afford a full platter a 'taste' of the effectiveness of the ETP, by combining the mat with their own platter (stock Technics, Vantage, Funk or whatever), which may tempt them to upgrade to a full ETP platter at a later date. I would suggest that if it's commercially viable to produce such mats, I can't see the exercise being anything else but a success in the long term, especially as there is always a demand for high-quality T/T mats amongst vinyl lovers, and not just from users of Technics T/Ts either - think about it! ;)
Therefore, why not cost it up, chat with David, and come back to us with a rough price of what the mats would retail for, when sold through MCRU? I'm sure we could get one reviewed in the magazines, as well as on AoS. I honestly feel that there is a good business opportunity here, which could introduce your products to a whole new range of customers, whilst increasing awareness of your existing Technics T/T modifications to a much wider audience :)
Marco.
RobbieGong
21-11-2013, 13:19
Hi Mike,
I think the point Marco was making here was not really about giving credit to who was exactly 'first' as such but more so with regard to who on this forum he was aware had initially made the right noises about your ETP, hence that definately being myself and John. I observed your ETP from your very first thread introducing it, white one and all and have on a number of occassions made reference to your friend and his initial 'review' which you posted, as reference to pointing out that I too found the ETP with 3mm softer stock techie mat giving best sound to my ears, just as he did (As Marco can no doubt vouch). Either way, I felt from the off that the ETP would be pretty good and I most certainly wasnt wrong - It is as good as I could have ever hoped ! :)
Hi Folks
I feel that I should correct one point concerning who was first.
If you all remember; the first ETP Platter which I produced was in off white (cream) which everyone opined was not aesthetic for the SL
I then switched to black. However this Platter was purchased by a fellow in Melbourne OZ, at the beginning of 2010, about three months or more before John purchased his, (he was going to come out to OZ to collect it.)
He did not want to become involved in any forums as an active contributer so I published his evaluation under my name credited to him
which many folks read including John and many others.
Oldpinkman
21-11-2013, 14:20
Hi Mike,
I think the point Marco was making here was not really about giving credit to who was exactly 'first' as such but more so with regard to who on this forum he was aware had initially made the right noises about your ETP, hence that definately being myself and John. I observed your ETP from your very first thread introducing it, white one and all and have on a number of occassions made reference to your friend and his initial 'review' which you posted, as reference to pointing out that I too found the ETP with 3mm softer stock techie mat giving best sound to my ears, just as he did (As Marco can no doubt vouch). Either way, I felt from the off that the ETP would be pretty good and I most certainly wasnt wrong - It is as good as I could have ever hoped ! :)
So the ETP material is so good it should have a mat made from it, except it sounds better with a mat made from another material put on it. Have I got that right, or is my wonky eye playing up again? :scratch:
Oldpinkman
21-11-2013, 14:33
The material is obviously a ball-ache to work with...!
Marco.
It's a plastic. Like acrylic. They all stress when machined, and all have to be relaxed. We used to have racks of PT platters waiting for further machining - a bit like bottles of champagne getting turned in "pupitres". It is in the nature of plastics that they are - plastic. A good friend of mine once explained that to the extent they are an impedance match with vinyl they make an ideal record support, and patented the idea (long ago). More recently he discovered that whilst that impedance match was an important criteria for that aspect, in terms of the rigidity of support a rigid, and not plastic material was superior. Of course, ideally it should also be "dead" and not ring (strictly be excited excessively at particular frequencies). His conclusion was that the solution was a non-resonant bond of an impedance match upper surface with a rigid but acoustically "dead" supporting layer. In exploring the idea he discovered an adhesive which actively created that effect (a bit like the green glue I used to acoustically isolate my recording studio walls). I understand he plans to use it on his top of the range Saphire turntable. And I am looking to use it on my PT if certain engineering challenges can be overcome. One of those challenges won't be a bearing able to transmit energy efficiently away from the platter, since I already have an extremely hard machined saphire one on my turntable as it is. ;)
prestonchipfryer
21-11-2013, 16:56
So the ETP material is so good it should have a mat made from it, except it sounds better with a mat made from another material put on it. Have I got that right, or is my wonky eye playing up again? :scratch:
The ETP used by Mike New is indeed excellent for a turntable platter. So why not use a mat made from the same material?
It would be interesting to have the opportunity of trying a mat made of ETP, to compare to other audiophile-type mats that I currently own.
:upyours:
Oldpinkman
21-11-2013, 17:17
The ETP used by Mike New is indeed excellent for a turntable platter. So why not use a mat made from the same material?
It would be interesting to have the opportunity of trying a mat made of ETP, to compare to other audiophile-type mats that I currently own.
:upyours:
My point was just that Robbie and John (for whom Mike New posted a review) seemed to like the ETP better with a mat on it made from something else. Like a rubber mat on a metal LP12 platter. It wasn't accordingly obvious why you would want to make a mat out of it. Of course I realised that Martin, and presumably yourself like it without a mat. And the engineering issues associated with engineering thin sections probably mean its academic anyway. It just seemed to me there was some form of paradox between advocating using the platter with a Technics rubber mat as best, and then advocating making a mat out of the platter material. Of course, its a free country (both here and in Australia) but it struck me as at the very least reflecting the usual panorama of divergent preferences on AOS ;)
It probably just needs to burn-in :mental:
Wakefield Turntables
21-11-2013, 18:01
It probably just needs to burn-in :mental:
:lol:
RobbieGong
21-11-2013, 18:42
Hi Richard, It's clear that you've latched on to my use of the word best so let me clarify. Best here is in the context of the combination of mats and perpertations I tried. Vinyl straight onto the naked ETP wasn't awful but 'best' of what I tried for me was to repeat, the ETP with stock techie 3mm on top. Obviously best does not mean best absolute as I have not tried every mat or combo to that regard known to man. Don't get too hung up on it
So the ETP material is so good it should have a mat made from it, except it sounds better with a mat made from another material put on it. Have I got that right, or is my wonky eye playing up again? :scratch:
I see you can buy Delrin in 6mm sheet and I can see a way of turning it in to a mat - whether it is worth doing is another matter.
I see you can buy Delrin in 6mm sheet and I can see a way of turning it in to a mat - whether it is worth doing is another matter.
It won't be flat at 6mm and is far too thin to start with dude, I have taken Marcos suggestion and autocadded a mat design and 2 prototypes will be made shortly, you can have the first one for a play if you so desire?
Thanks has to go to Marco and his forum for championing the Techie all these years, I have not had the chance to hear the ETP platter yet as as soon as they arrive at MCRU Towers they go straight back out.
I am currently using the vantage platter and it does sound very good, the ETP and the bearing should perform well together on my techie which has a 309 on currently.
Clearaudio actually make a mat made from vinyl to add to the equation! I have ordered one.
Thanks to Marco the Techie seems to have finally come of age, there is only one area I can see that could potentially be improved upon, tone arm cables, watch this space!:)
chris@panteg
21-11-2013, 20:26
I see you can buy Delrin in 6mm sheet and I can see a way of turning it in to a mat - whether it is worth doing is another matter.
Well a guy over on the VE forum uses a Delrin mat on a 1200 , I think it was made by Jim Howard, who also offers a modded bearing.
It won't be flat at 6mm and is far too thin to start with dude, I have taken Marcos suggestion and autocadded a mat design and 2 prototypes will be made shortly, you can have the first one for a play if you so desire?
Don't I get one to play with, since it was my suggestion, please daddee? :goodbye: :ner:
Thanks has to go to Marco and his forum for championing the Techie all these years, I have not had the chance to hear the ETP platter yet as as soon as they arrive at MCRU Towers they go straight back out.
Thanks to Marco the Techie seems to have finally come of age...
Cheers, dude - not forgetting also the many others responsible for putting the modded Technics 'out there'. We've all played our part :)
Anyway, I predict a bright future for the ETP.
Clearaudio actually make a mat made from vinyl to add to the equation! I have ordered one.
Great minds think alike! All this talk about mats has got me curious to start playing with a few again... Tried to find the Clearaudio one on your site but couldn't (must be blind, lol), so had to get one from somewhere else...
Dunno what it will be like, but it'll be interesting comparing it with the Achromat :cool:
Marco.
Great minds think alike! All this talk about mats has got me curious to start playing with a few again... Tried to find the Clearaudio one on your site but couldn't (must be blind, lol), so had to get one from somewhere else...
Dunno what it will be like, but it'll be interesting comparing it with the Achromat :cool:
Marco.
In theory a vinyl mat should be the perfect partner for a vinyl record, I look forward to your conclusions ;)
Just buying a 6mm sheet of delrin and cutting it into a circle with a hole in the middle would not be a useable product as it won't be flat, it needs to be machined from plate, after 20 years selling plastics I should know about these things!
A delrin platter is where it's at currently, Martin says his sounds good without a mat, all 3 of my clearaudio demo TT's have delrin platters and no mats, no doubt a mat may make it better, worse, same or different, I personally won't b experimenting with any more mats as I have some exciting new projects to delve into and already have oyaide aluminium mat, oyaide rubber and tungsten mat, blue horizon cork mat, tonar carbon impregnated felt mat, mcru cork mat, compak mat from japan, and a few others, I just ordered a clearaudio mat which is made from vinyl just to look at it then it will get stored away until I sell it.
It's nice debating and cyber chatting but I doubt a delrin mat will bring anything stunning to the party, the ETP platter may be considered expensive but it's commensurate with performance expectations, Martin bought it immediately on hearing it, I expect others will do the same, if your Techy has been totally pimped out then this is the final piece of jewellery to add.
PM me if you are contemplating one as I may be able to help you.:)
Don't I get one to play with, since it was my suggestion, please daddee? :goodbye: :ner:
Cheers, dude - not forgetting also the many others responsible for putting the modded Technics 'out there'. We've all played our part :)
Anyway, I predict a bright future for the ETP.
Great minds think alike! All this talk about mats has got me curious to start playing with a few again... Tried to find the Clearaudio one on your site but couldn't (must be blind, lol), so had to get one from somewhere else...
Dunno what it will be like, but it'll be interesting comparing it with the Achromat :cool:
Marco.
Did you pay £50 for the clearaudio harmo-nicer then as that is what it should sell for?
I have some on the way!
Oldpinkman
21-11-2013, 20:51
In theory a vinyl mat should be the perfect partner for a vinyl record, I look forward to your conclusions ;)
Sort of. Vinyl would be a great impedance match. The energy from the stylus would go from one side to the other evenly across the frequency spectrum. You have, in effect, a very thick record. Then what do you do with it?
Sort of. Vinyl would be a great impedance match. The energy from the stylus would go from one side to the other evenly across the frequency spectrum. You have, in effect, a very thick record. Then what do you do with it?
waffle it into submission like you do maybe? :lol:
Stop press,
just been told the best application for the clearaudio vinyl mat is on top of a glass platter, shall i send arthur one? :)
waffle it into submission like you do maybe? :lol:
Now *that* was funny!!! :lolsign: :rofl:
Stop press,
just been told the best application for the clearaudio vinyl mat is on top of a glass platter, shall i send arthur one? :)
You are a naughty boy David... :lol:
Did you pay £50 for the clearaudio harmo-nicer then as that is what it should sell for?
I have some on the way!
Yes (got it from Simon at Hi-fi Sound). So, do I get a prototype delrin mat to plat with? :)
Marco.
Yes (got it from Simon at Hi-fi Sound). So, do I get a prototype delrin mat to plat with? :)
Marco.
and a platter? whose your bank, not me? :lol::ner:
Yes (got it from Simon at Hi-fi Sound). So, do I get a prototype delrin mat to play with? :)
Marco.
maybe simon can make you a delrin mat and send it out for free , he has no clearaudio vinyl mat on his website :ner:
and a platter? whose your bank, not me?
El banco that likes to say Get to Fucko... :lol:
I have taken Marcos suggestion and autocadded a mat design and 2 prototypes will be made shortly, you can have the first one for a play if you so desire?
So why offer one to Mark first to have a play with (he makes his own, anyway), when the mat was my suggestion? You, dafteeeee, are the captain of bollox logic! :mental: :stupid:
Marco.
oooo sir, do you want it sir. ooooo
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l00oeue1QV1qajario1_400.jpg
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/2289-large_default/mike-new-technics-sl12001210-platter.jpg
El banco that likes to say Get to Fucko... :lol:
Anyway why offer one to Mark first to have a play with, when the mat was my suggestion? You are the captain of bollox logic. dafteeeeee! :mental: :stupid:
Marco.
i suggested a vinyl mat then you go and buy it elsewhere? :ner:
and don't give me that pish about it not being on my website cos simon does not have it on his either :lol:
I will send you a mat as otherwise.......................
http://brainfartz.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/pram-300x255.jpg
maybe simon can make you a delrin mat and send it out for free , he has no clearaudio vinyl mat on his website :ner:
Yesh, but I got it through his sister company Turntableworld, so wrap that round yer dobber... :ner: :lol:
Marco.
Oh look, here's the link:
http://www.turntableworld.co.uk/departments-c49/accessory-zone-c13/platter-mats-c35/clearaudio-harmonicer-turntable-mat-the-perfect-link-between-vinyl-and-platter-p298
:upyours: :upyours:
:lolsign:
Marco.
Yesh, but I got it through his sister company Turntableworld, so wrap that round yer dobber... :ner: :lol:
Marco.
all I have to say on that is thanks for your support? :steam::steam::steam::steam::steam::steam:
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/2289-large_default/mike-new-technics-sl12001210-platter.jpg
Oi! Gimme my turntable back!
all I have to say on that is thanks for your support? :steam::steam::steam::steam::steam::steam:
Calm down, dear. I told you, I didn't think you sold them... If there are some on your website I must've missed them. Got a link to where they are on your site?
Marco.
P.S Just to clarify, I ordered the mat yesterday, before you returned after being AWOL for two days....
Oi! Gimme my turntable back!
Looking good, dude! :respect:
Marco.
RobbieGong
21-11-2013, 21:57
Looking good, dude! :respect:
Marco.
Yep Marco, That's another thing, the ETP looks da dogs danglies on the techie - suits it to a T. Here's another gratuitous shot of mine looking rather fetching wearing it's ETP, if I might say ! :D :lol:
Indeed - bet you're glad, though, that I talked Mike out of his original idea of producing the ETP in white!! :spew:
I always do my best to keep you all happy :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
RobbieGong
21-11-2013, 22:05
Lol ! - Ya not wrong Marco - (bl**dy white for cryin out loud :eek:)
Oh, and while were on the subject of happy - Source me a pair of Spendor S8e's (in black Ash) if you can, cant see a used pair for sale anywhere ! Manage that one and you'd REALLY be making me happy :) sorry for momentory thread drift :)
Indeed - bet you're glad that I talked Mike out of his original idea of producing the ETP in white!! :spew:
I always do my best to keep you all happy :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
Here's another gratuitous shot of mine looking rather fetching wearing it's ETP, if I might say !
What's the arm, Robbie?
RobbieGong
21-11-2013, 22:20
Hi Martin, Micro Seiki MA 202 really nice arm.
What's the arm, Robbie?
Mike_New
21-11-2013, 22:23
Lol ! - Ya not wrong Marco - (bl**dy white for cryin out loud :eek:)
:)
Hang on a moment folks!!
I have sold two more white ETP platters to happy vegimites, one with black inserts, does that turn you on??
If I recall they both went to Asian users, so maybe that tells us something about individual geographic preferences.
It turns on my squits...
Marco.
If I recall they both went to Asian users, so maybe that tells us something about individual geographic preferences.
The Japanese do prefer white cars, so perhaps there's something in it?
Perhaps we could source some grey delrin Mike to match the SL1200? I know it comes in red! :lol: and maybe pink for Marco? :lol:
Awesome, if you post this in get yer turntables out for the lads it will be an instant winner!
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/TECH/TechnicsSL1210MK5G-BlackBeauty012_zps6d8ba34d.jpg
Mike_New
22-11-2013, 08:22
Perhaps we could source some grey delrin Mike to match the SL1200? I know it comes in red! :lol: and maybe pink for Marco? :lol:
Do you think nipple pink for marco?? Unfortunately the matterial I use only comes in au natural and jet black
Do you think nipple pink for marco?? Unfortunately the material I use only comes in au natural and jet black
maybe get natural and stain it with pink nail varnish?
MikeMusic
22-11-2013, 09:08
The Japanese do prefer white cars, so perhaps there's something in it?
Me too
:scratch:
and with all that leaning to the Eastern way
Hmm I'm Japanese
Do you think nipple pink for marco?? Unfortunately the matterial I use only comes in au natural and jet black
Au naturel sounds rather risqué, darling; I like it... It panders to my penchant for exhibitionism, and besides, jet black would clash with the pastel combination on my usual choice of lingerie :flasher: :bum:
Marco.
It won't be flat at 6mm and is far too thin to start with dude, I have taken Marcos suggestion and autocadded a mat design and 2 prototypes will be made shortly, you can have the first one for a play if you so desire?
Yeah, It won't be absolutely flat, I realise that. I've bought and worked with a lot of Delrin in both rod and sheet form (very nice to turn) and assumed that it would have to be faced off. It's a bit tricky working with thin pieces, but not impossible by any means.
I would certainly like to try a Delrin mat though as it is one of the few materials I haven't tried for this purpose.
Yeah, It won't be absolutely flat, I realise that. I've bought and worked with a lot of Delrin in both rod and sheet form (very nice to turn) and assumed that it would have to be faced off. It's a bit tricky working with thin pieces, but not impossible by any means.
I would certainly like to try a Delrin mat though as it is one of the few materials I haven't tried for this purpose.
Yes I am getting curious as to how it will perform, will send you one when its ready
I would certainly like to try a Delrin mat though as it is one of the few materials I haven't tried for this purpose.
You never know, Mark - it might be great!
The main thing here for Technics enthusiasts, and also for the benefit of Mike's business, is that if an ETP mat gives the user a taste of what the full platter does, then it should not only make the mat popular, but subsequently increase sales of the platter :)
It will also allow users of current aftermarket platters for the Technics, such as the Vantage, Funk, etc, to try an ETP mat with them and ascertain whether upgrading to a full ETP platter would be a worthwhile proposition or not.
The bottom line here is that producing an ETP mat, if sonically successful and cost effective, will do no harm whatsoever to sales of the platter, and moreover could consequently produce one of the best performing mats on the market. That sounds rather like a 'win-win' to me....
So, get yer arse in gear, Mikey....5mm thick, black with a label recess, would be great!! ;)
Marco.
Yes I am getting curious as to how it will perform, will send you one when its ready
You have to admit, I'm full of good ideas! :lol:
Marco.
You have to admit, I'm full of good ideas! :lol:
Marco.
x2:lol:
You never know, Mark - it might be great!
Indeed it may be - my mind is open and I am quite looking forward to trying it. I've tried acrylic a few times and not long ago I tried a commercial acrylic mat and made a version myself. Unfortunately, I found that acrylic gave a very distinct colouration - sort of boosted in the low treble and muted in the high with a rather plummy emphasis in the mid bass. The idea that acrylic is a good impedance match for a record is a nice idea but I'm not convinced it is true (or even necessarily desirable). After all the record is only pressed against the platter, it isn't actually one with it (even if clamped). Delrin (Acetal) is a quite different polymer though.
Audio Al
22-11-2013, 13:59
You have to admit, I'm full of good ideas! :lol:
Marco.
Sometimes those good ideas start with the letter S and end in T ;):lol:
Sometimes those good ideas start with the letter S and end in T ;):lol: :lol:
Why are you not at work?
Ali Tait
22-11-2013, 14:19
You have to admit, I'm full of good ideas! :lol:
Marco.
Aye, full of something.. :lol:
Audio Al
22-11-2013, 14:20
:lol:
Why are you not at work?
I am allowed days off , then do the Club work :rolleyes:
Aye, full of something.. :lol:
Fart gas?
Marco.
I have organized making some delrin platters and will send Mike a royalty payment for each one sold as I wouldn't be involved in this if it wasn't for him!
Marco you get nothing but my admiration ! :lol:
Ali Tait
22-11-2013, 15:16
Fart gas?
Marco.
Was thinking more of what comes after the fart.
I have organized making some delrin platters and will send Mike a royalty payment for each one sold as I wouldn't be involved in this if it wasn't for him!
Marco you get nothing but my admiration ! :lol:
Excellent - I look forward to trying it out :) (do you need me to PM you my address?).
Oh, I guess you mean platter mat rather than just platter.
Excellent - I look forward to trying it out :) (do you need me to PM you my address?).
Oh, I guess you mean platter mat rather than just platter.
yes mat not the platter is won't won't fit on an (LP12....Yet :eyebrows:)
Was thinking more of what comes after the fart.
A wee watery 'follow thru'? ':D
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-11-2013, 17:31
Aye, check yer strides!
S'ok, my nappy will catch it.......
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6725/1ccb.jpg
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-11-2013, 18:57
Now that's just a typical dating website picky Marco, c'mon, post one up that wasn't taken 20 years ago!
Aye, right enough - it'll be typical in Dunfermline! :lol:
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-11-2013, 19:18
Aye, yer not wrong, but I just live here, I'm not from here!
Aye, but living there's f*cked with yer nut! :D
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-11-2013, 19:26
At least I'm not south of the border! :lol:
Wales doesn't count - we've dug deep trenches and posted psycho sheep at all the border points, to keep the Englanders out!! :sheep:
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Stratmangler
22-11-2013, 19:41
Wales doesn't count - we've dug deep trenches and posted psycho sheep at all the border points, to keep the Englanders out!! :sheep:
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
You told me them sheep was fer shagging .....:eyebrows:
Ali Tait
22-11-2013, 19:50
Must be just the ugly ones...
Yes, we shag them first, before they go out on duty. That's what makes them mental! :D
Marco.
Must be just the ugly ones...
Well, the line-up contained all your ex-girlfriends!
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-11-2013, 20:03
:lol: nah, at least mine were all two legged!
Aye, but they had to shave more than twice a day (and I don't mean their 'foo-foos' either)!! :lol:
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-11-2013, 20:15
Aye, but I didn't have to wear Wellies and braces...
Mike_New
22-11-2013, 21:43
yes mat not the platter is won't won't fit on an (LP12....Yet :eyebrows:)
I have been asked by a couple of folks if I can indeed produce an ETP platter for the LP12,
the answer I believe would be most definitely YES. The SL1200 would be the most complicated platter to try and substitute for and that is why some have come off their bikes!! Until now I have only concentrated on the SL but I will consider making them for the SP12 if there are sufficient people interested.
I have been asked by a couple of folks if I can indeed produce an ETP platter for the LP12,
the answer I believe would be most definitely YES. The SL1200 would be the most complicated platter to try and substitute for and that is why some have come off their bikes!! Until now I have only concentrated on the SL but I will consider making them for the SP12 if there are sufficient people interested.
What's that phrase................. you cannot polish a turd?
Mike_New
23-11-2013, 07:54
What's that phrase................. you cannot polish a turd?
You can if you hold your breath.
Stratmangler
23-11-2013, 10:52
What's that phrase................. you cannot polish a turd?
Mythbusters disproved this "fact" ...
yiJ9fy1qSFI
Having now taken delivery of the Clearaudio Harmonicer mat, and having achieved some rather interesting results with it, I'd just like to return briefly to Richard's earlier comment:
Sort of. Vinyl would be a great impedance match. The energy from the stylus would go from one side to the other evenly across the frequency spectrum. You have, in effect, a very thick record. Then what do you do with it?
Do you mean the "very thick record" or the energy from the stylus, or both? :)
Marco.
Having now taken delivery of the Clearaudio Harmonicer mat, and having achieved some rather interesting results with it, I'd just like to return briefly to Richard's earlier comment:
Do you mean the "very thick record" or the energy from the stylus, or both? :)
Marco.
Parcelarse should be dropping your ETP thingermibob off with me today, import duty and vat was £695 is that ok? :lol:
Aye, sure... 'File them' inside a very dark crevice! :D
It's all happening at the moment - I'm being sent stuff to audition, left right and centre. Currently residing at Marco Towers, for evaluation, is a Bushmaster MKII, Vida phono stage and Jez's new MC head amp, with shortly to arrive another head amp from Paul Hynes, and now the ETP platter....
Looks like I'll not be short of things to do, to while away the dark nights! :eyebrows:
Marco.
pure sound
27-11-2013, 14:04
I have been asked by a couple of folks if I can indeed produce an ETP platter for the LP12,
the answer I believe would be most definitely YES. The SL1200 would be the most complicated platter to try and substitute for and that is why some have come off their bikes!! Until now I have only concentrated on the SL but I will consider making them for the LP12 if there are sufficient people interested.
Do the bearing as well. Then, finally it should be possible to get an LP12 with no Linn parts in it :D Other than by buying an Ariston RD11 that is!
Interesting you should mention that, as it alludes to what I've written here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29214-Who-wants-a-new-one&p=503745#post503745
For some reason, to some folk, it appears to be acceptable to 'bastardise' an LP12, but not a Technics... :scratch:
Marco.
pure sound
27-11-2013, 14:56
As might be the case for any deck there are some modifications or replacement parts that don't necessarily bring about improvements that everyone would agree were tangible. In the case of the LP12 any attempts to improve it via adding a dc motor or better subchassis were sneered at by the Linn faithful. Until of course Linn themselves did just those things. Now everyones at it, but Id agree that some of the aftermarket motors & chassis aren't necessarily improvements. Ditto for the 1210. So while in principle its ripe for a bit of judicious tweaking, not all of the possible options represent a worthwhile improvement or great value. It'd probably be worth publishing a list of generally approved & worthwhile mods once a year so that people can easily find out which are worth pursuing.
I see you can now buy a machined, solid Delrin, platter for Rega decks - £20 on eBay...
A Delrin platter for the LP12 is a bit tricky because the resonant frequency of the suspension is partly set by the weight of the platter and Delrin weighs less than the Zamak the Linn platter is made from.
prestonchipfryer
27-11-2013, 16:20
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rega-Turntable-20mm-Delrin-platter-upgrade-/200968603101?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ecaa985dd
I see you can now buy a machined, solid Delrin, platter for Rega decks - £20 on eBay...
Like this? Not 20 quid though.
Ah, so one can 'bastardise' Regas as well as Linns, eh? ;)
Seems that this modifying malarkey of supplying "random bits" can be applied to more T/Ts than just the Technics.............
Marco.
It'd probably be worth publishing a list of generally approved & worthwhile mods once a year so that people can easily find out which are worth pursuing.
Excellent idea, Guy. We'll probably do that in the Techiepedia! :)
Marco.
A question: after adding on all the extra bits and bobs, how can you (if you can) remember what the stock model sounded like?
Oldpinkman
27-11-2013, 16:47
A question: after adding on all the extra bits and bobs, how can you (if you can) remember what the stock model sounded like?
You have 4 of them lieing on your mates factory floor ;)
A question: after adding on all the extra bits and bobs, how can you (if you can) remember what the stock model sounded like?
It's not strictly necessary if every upgrade you applied made a positive improvement. You DID check that it sounded better afterwards? ;)
Oldpinkman
27-11-2013, 17:30
Having now taken delivery of the Clearaudio Harmonicer mat, and having achieved some rather interesting results with it, I'd just like to return briefly to Richard's earlier comment:
Do you mean the "very thick record" or the energy from the stylus, or both? :)
Marco.
Sorry Marco
Distracted by tax returns. Have just finished writing my "countdown to 31 Jan" list! Before the pitchfork wielders jump on me, I accept I am regurgitating the TT design theory Arthur taught me many years ago. And there will be Shrodigers cat lurking somewhere.
"The energy from the stylus" in this context means "waste energy". Wanted energy is the kinetic energy of the groove being whizzed past the stylus and wiggling it. In a perfect world, all of that would be uniformly transferred to the generator magnet or coils, and converted to electrical energy and the gain needed on phono stage would be much lower! In practice of course much of it isn't, and it's what the system does with that which affects the sound because it causes stylus wiggles in addition to the ones meant by the record groove, or causes the generator block not to remain "still" relative to the moving stylus.
I meant the "impedance match platter" makes a "very thick record". A thick record will absorb some of the energy, and reflect less back than a thin record on a "reflective" surface (metal platter, felt mat etc) but somebody or others law says energy cannot be created or lost, only converted from one form to another. That's going to be heat here. So the PT design idea was that energy "gets away" from the record surface, into the thick platter, and then passes down the bearing into the subchassis, where it is dispersed (as is the energy passing from the arm tube, assuming good arm bearings, via the same "tight" coupling to the subchassis. (Quite a lot of the energy not converted into electrical energy by the cartridge generator ends up in the arm, and a lot of it is also "dispersed" as acoustic energy - "needle talk". Bloody stuffs going everywhere.)
The achromat idea is that the mat has the impedance match, but does more of the energy dispersal itself (the "little bubbles"). And does it in a thinner material that can be used as a mat, rather than requiring a substantial TT mod like a platter change - and so fits many TT's.
Of course - the big deal is not necessarily getting rid of the energy (anywhere in the system - that is effectively damping) its making sure that whatever happens to it happens the same for all frequencies and not more for some and less for others. That's the idea with the impedance match (and arm tube resonances).
This could of course all be the senile ramblings of an old fart, but I don't have to look over my shoulder for AK correcting me atm since he's off-forum. :lol:
As noted previously, AK now has the view that dealing with energy is only part of it - you also need a surface which is rigid, and doesn't contribute further "colour" by ringing (plastic is pretty good for not ringing - not so hot for rigid).
If it matters, and you wanted his views, I should be seeing him Friday, but he's in a foul mood ;)
It's not strictly necessary if every upgrade you applied made a positive improvement. You DID check that it sounded better afterwards? ;)
You wouldn't spend £695 on a new platter then keep it if it sounded the same or worse now would you!
You wouldn't spend £695 on a new platter then keep it if it sounded the same or worse now would you!
Or indeed any of the mods. My point is, the stock deck long ago receded into memory and is no longer relevant to the sound I now achieve.
Hi Richard,
Thanks for your thoughts on the matter. You've confirmed what I thought you were referring to. This sums it up best (and is cemented by the bit in bold):
I meant the "impedance match platter" makes a "very thick record". A thick record will absorb some of the energy, and reflect less back than a thin record on a "reflective" surface (metal platter, felt mat etc) but somebody or others law says energy cannot be created or lost, only converted from one form to another. That's going to be heat here. So the PT design idea was that energy "gets away" from the record surface, into the thick platter, and then passes down the bearing into the subchassis, where it is dispersed (as is the energy passing from the arm tube, assuming good arm bearings, via the same "tight" coupling to the subchassis. (Quite a lot of the energy not converted into electrical energy by the cartridge generator ends up in the arm, and a lot of it is also "dispersed" as acoustic energy - "needle talk". Bloody stuffs going everywhere.)
The achromat idea is that the mat has the impedance match, but does more of the energy dispersal itself (the "little bubbles").)
From the Funk website (in reference to the Achromat):
The stylus accelerates at up to 20,000g. This means your groove wall is not so much caressed but more akin to being pummelled by a road hammer creating travelling shock waves.
When there is a material change (the record sitting on a felt mat, say, these waves are reflected and
energy reflected from the bottom of the record (a mere 2mm thick) is sensed by the stylus and heard as colouration.
Can we prevent his reflection?
Achromat is the ideal material to absorb energy from the record. There is no better.
But it is only 3-5mm thick and this is where the science kicks in.
Millions of tiny bubbles within create complex pathways and that's where the energy gets lost as heat.
So if the Achromat is the "ideal material to absorb energy from the record" (providing the energy dispersal), as you've mentioned, stated also by Arthur, and personal experience appears to confirm this, then why not combine it with a mat which has identical impedance characteristics to the record (vinyl) itself, thus achieving a notional 'perfect' combination? This is where the Clearaudio Harmonicer mat comes in....
It's early days yet, but my initial findings with this combination (in conjunction with the Funk MKI platter) are extremely positive, producing the most lifelike and musically convincing sound I've heard yet from my T/T - and with minimal outlay! Using the Achromat on its own, in comparison, compresses midrange information and casts a veil over proceedings, all of which is removed when the Harmonicer enters the equation. The Achromat on its own is still very good, but combined with the Clearaudio Harmonicer, the results are simply amazing!!
My experiences here lead me to strongly suspect that many of the benefits Martin reported with the ETP platter, after changing his Achromat/Funk MKI platter combo for one, were down not just to the ETP itself, but perhaps just as significantly to the removal of the Achromat and the providing of records with a more ideal impedance match, due to the fundamental influence, in that respect, of the ETP. This also makes the prospect of using a Delrin/ETP mat potentially rather exciting, especially for those who can't afford to shell out for a full ETP platter.
It'll therefore be very interesting making some proper comparisons when I obtain my own ETP platter for evaluation, and also demonstrating to Martin what I've found with the Harmonicer/Achromat/Funk MKI platter combination when I go to his place in December.
Marco.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rega-Turntable-20mm-Delrin-platter-upgrade-/200968603101?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ecaa985dd
Like this? Not 20 quid though.
Yes, like that - but less expensive...
Just a quick mention for the Michell Record clamp, which is also made from Delrin. Have you tried one with the Harmonicer Marco? They may compliment one another ;)
Hi Dave,
You could be right, however, I've purloined a Clearaudio Clever Clamp (from a mate, who like you is clearing out his T/T paraphernalia and going all-digital), and as expected I guess, this works really well, in terms of gently clamping records to the Harmonicer/Achromat combo, providing the best interface I've heard so far between record and platter.
I'm also finding that the virtual complete removal of any mass, provided by a record weight (as the Clever Clamp weighs next to nothing), is a distinct sonic advantage with the Technics...
Here's the little chap in question: http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7621/8jze.jpg
You Tube video, here:
7RZ1_NtWvJE
Marco.
Oldpinkman
27-11-2013, 21:07
Good luck with that marco. You know what they say. The proof is in the pudding. Or the ears are the final arbiter. Watch out for cats ;)
Indeed, I came across the Clever Clamp a while back when I was looking for a clamp for my TD160 but I just couldn't bring myself to buy one, it looks like something you might find in a pound shop :eyebrows: I am probably doing the gadget a huge disservice, and I know I am going to be pilloried for typing what I have, but I just can't help the way I feel about it... Anyway, such things aren't going to be a bother for me from now on so I will butt out now... :lol:
Good luck with that marco. You know what they say. The proof is in the pudding. Or the ears are the final arbiter. Watch out for cats ;)
Lol... The thing is, I'm loathe to get rid of a perfectly good platter, and one which I've enjoyed listening to music with over the last year (and which I spent a great deal of time auditioning and ensuring that it was right for the job) [the Funk MKI] *if* the issue Martin and others have identified is simply (or mainly) down to the Achromat, which can be resolved by the introduction of the Clearaudio Harmonicer.
Now, as of yet, I'm not saying that's the case, as I haven't heard an ETP platter on my T/T. If despite all that, the ETP is still 'no brainer' better, then I will buy one and let the Funk go, but I'm certainly going to need a *very* compelling reason for doing so (as I simply don't dispose of carefully chosen equipment, willy-nilly)! :)
Marco.
Indeed, I came across the Clever Clamp a while back when I was looking for a clamp for my TD160 but I just couldn't bring myself to buy one, it looks like something you might find in a pound shop :eyebrows:
Lol - good job then it was given to me as a gift! Seriously, I know where you're coming from, but used in conjunction with the Harmonicer, it just 'works' :)
Marco.
It had the vantage platter on chief with NO mat, just vinyl direct onto copper, am I alone in thinking mats are not needed here?
Nope - After mucho mat swapping I decided a while ago my Vantage platter sounded best with no mat (and no weight/clamp either).
FWIW when Richard came up to fit it and the PCB upgrade he reckoned it was best with no mat or perhaps a single sheet of brown paper.
Steve
Just a quick mention for the Michell Record clamp, which is also made from Delrin. Have you tried one with the Harmonicer Marco? They may compliment one another ;)
There was one for sale in "private exhibitions", not sure if it is still available though!
There was one for sale in "private exhibitions", not sure if it is still available though!
Nope, his highness the Supreme Dalek needs it to conquer the Earth... :D
The Grand Wazoo
27-11-2013, 22:15
Yes, I've heard that they're quite popular with nipple-obsessed daleks!
Spectral Morn
27-11-2013, 22:19
Yes, I've heard that they're quite popular with nipple-obsessed daleks!
;) :eyebrows:
Regards Neil
The Grand Wazoo
27-11-2013, 22:21
Hey-hey!
well they do say all publicity is good publicity :)
chris@panteg
27-11-2013, 23:31
Nope - After mucho mat swapping I decided a while ago my Vantage platter sounded best with no mat (and no weight/clamp either).
FWIW when Richard came up to fit it and the PCB upgrade he reckoned it was best with no mat or perhaps a single sheet of brown paper.
Steve
+1
Hey-hey!
My My
Rock and Roll
Will never die!
Oldpinkman
28-11-2013, 08:16
Lol... The thing is, I'm loathe to get rid of a perfectly good platter, and one which I've enjoyed listening to music with over the last year (and which I spent a great deal of time auditioning and ensuring that it was right for the job) [the Funk MKI] *if* the issue Martin and others have identified is simply (or mainly) down to the Achromat, which can be resolved by the introduction of the Clearaudio Harmonicer.
Now, as of yet, I'm not saying that's the case, as I haven't heard an ETP platter on my T/T. If despite all that, the ETP is still 'no brainer' better, then I will buy one and let the Funk go, but I'm certainly going to need a *very* compelling reason for doing so (as I simply don't dispose of carefully chosen equipment, willy-nilly)! :)
Marco.
Just a couple of thoughts since I'm here. Clearly folks will tinker with Techies and find what they find. But in the context of your new discoveries (and harking back to an earlier thread on clamps) a clamp or weight does potentially 3 things
1) - intended - causes a better coupling of the vinyl to the support, which if we believe the impedance match energy management idea causes a better result
2) - for weights, adds strain on the bearing, and buggers the suspension on suspendeds
3) - it acts as an upside down platter in the context of ringing, energy transfer and loss etc
All of these will impact on the final sound. Whether they "improve" it is in the ears of the beholder. Sounds may be preferred, but will not necessarily by "neutral". I suspect what is finally liked by any individual depends partly on their preferences, and partly on their other equipment and how it balances with it. Martin, who has written most recently on this Techie platter changing, and the ETP, has a distinctive and unusual tonearm, which however lovely he may find the sound, at least mechanically has some distinctive features which are unlikely to make it "neutral". So his choices will be relevant to how his record player, including the arm, sound. Almost certainly that won't be the same for everyone. I remain slightly bemused, given its outstanding reception elsewhere, that I appear to be the only person on the forum to have heard an FXR on a Techie. That clearly affects how I interpret what I have heard regarding platters. (It also reflects my tastes and my "take" on "neutral". If I had to sum up the FXR sound it is "Pink Triangle". They are made for each other.)
Back to clamps/weights. Assuming a closer contact between record and support is desired, it may not be achieved by weights and clamps. Oracle had this right, by having a soft mat into which the record could be squished, and a platter which was not flat, and a clamp washer, so that the clamp "bends" the record and the force applied to the centre is spread to the edges of the record. A straight weight presses down on the middle of the record, which is likely to lift the edge of the record up a tiny bit. Either way - unless you have a soft compound mat, pressing the vinyl harder against the mat shouldn't make a difference to the contact. A soft mat will squish into the grooves and therefore have a larger overall surface area in contact
Forget 2 - it just saves me the bother of titting about with weights on the PT, and means its probably a good idea to have an upgraded bearing on the Techie
3 - the upside down platter. If we are bothered by the impedance match / energy transfer idea (and not all of my chums are) then it is going to apply to an object on the other side of the record. However, a weight is mechanically coupled to the vinyl, via a paper label and so will be a very damped impedance match. It will however receive energy and do something with it. It will also contribute its resonances. If you pick your weight up you may think it fairly "dead", but hook a wire round it and hang it by the wire and tap it with a nail and it will ring. The energy from the stylus will travel through the vinyl as previously discussed. It travels horizontally as well as vertically. The record which is thin vertically is "a very thick record" horizontally, and so, there will be energy efficiently travelled to the label area to interface with the weight. So if you worry about your platter material, you also need to worry about your weight material. And unlike the platter, the weight is not coupled to a bearing to other parts (like a sub-chassis on a PT)
As an aside - this emphasises the "rigidity" thing. The "upside down platter" of the weight has a resonance/ energy coupling relationship with the record - but no support function. If the platter were the same dimensions, only covering the label area, with the rest of the surface unsupported - well, you get my drift. This is where I struggle a bit (along with relativity, event horizons in black holes, and the big bang). A Pink Triangle acrylic platter is completely rigid in my dimensions, as is a rega RB300 arm tube. The diagrams on funks web site showing the bending on the arm, are clearly not to scale. The problem is that the stylus movements needed for low level high frequency notes are tiny in a measure I can't get my head round. And, allegedly, at this level, things bend. The easiest way I can get my head round it is to enlarge everything. Make the platter 1 mile across, and I can see how it can move a bit at the edges. If the platter moves, or the arm bends, that creates a signal in the cartridge generator by moving the generator relative to the stylus tip.
Of course all that drivel was in terms I relate to , not proper engineering or even heaven-forbid relevant scale. So keep watching out for the cats. Or just listen and go with what sounds good :)
Interesting views, Richard. I concur with much of them. For me, it's quite simple:
If we accept that absorbing energy away from the record is vitally important, in order to achieve the best sound from a turntable (count me in), and consider Arthur's description (minus some forgivable marketing rhetoric), to be a credible summary of the situation, I quote: "The stylus accelerates at up to 20,000g. This means your groove wall is not so much caressed but more akin to being pummelled by a road hammer creating travelling shock waves", then it automatically follows that something must be used to facilitate the process and thus address the problem of those "travelling shock waves" - or let's call it instead: dealing effectively with the issue of energy dispersal, from a place where you most certainly don't want any...
In that respect, having the best possible impedance match interface between record and platter (whether that be a 'raw' ETP platter or a Clearaudio Harmonicer mat on top of a Funk platter, or whatever) is simply not enough, as it is only attempting to solve one issue whilst completely ignoring another (arguably even more important) problem.
This is probably why the results I've obtained by combining the Harmonicer mat with the Achromat have been (rather ear-opening) superb. The Funk platter underneath, is therefore simply left to do its job as intended, which results in everything working seamlessly together 'as one'.
Now, don't get me wrong, if when I install the ETP platter, and without an Achromat or Harmonicer in the equation, it totally blows away the Funk platter, used in conjunction with the aforementioned items, then the Funk platter will be placed very quickly into retirement, but if it doesn't and, say, provides only a marginal improvement, or perhaps none at all, then my current platter/mat combination will be staying put and I can smugly sit back and congratulate myself for having saved a few quid by applying some lateral thinking! ;)
In that respect, one of the tests I would like to conduct at Martin's place is to compare a 'raw' ETP platter against one fitted with an Achromat/Harmonicer combo, which will allow us to ascertain whether or not the ETP solves everything that needs solving, of if it needs some help in terms of addressing the issue of energy dispersal - and then pop the Funk platter into the equation, fitted with the Achro/Harm, and compare both 'platter solutions' against each other.
That should be an interesting one and give a good indication of which way to go for others reading this thread who may be considering a platter and/or mat upgrade for their Technics T/Ts.
3 - the upside down platter. If we are bothered by the impedance match / energy transfer idea (and not all of my chums are) then it is going to apply to an object on the other side of the record. However, a weight is mechanically coupled to the vinyl, via a paper label and so will be a very damped impedance match. It will however receive energy and do something with it. It will also contribute its resonances.
If you pick your weight up you may think it fairly "dead", but hook a wire round it and hang it by the wire and tap it with a nail and it will ring. The energy from the stylus will travel through the vinyl as previously discussed. It travels horizontally as well as vertically. The record which is thin vertically is "a very thick record" horizontally, and so, there will be energy efficiently travelled to the label area to interface with the weight. So if you worry about your platter material, you also need to worry about your weight material. And unlike the platter, the weight is not coupled to a bearing to other parts (like a sub-chassis on a PT)
That is a very good point, and probably one of the reasons why I've obtained rather different results when comparing T/T weights of similar mass, but different construction. I was never a big fan of using weights anyway, with the Technics (especially the heavier ones), and what you've outlined, together with what I've discovered from using the Clearaudio Clever Clamp (which being made from a lightweight, acoustically dead, plastic suffers from none of the issues you've described), pretty much puts that one to bed for me, unless Martin can put a spanner in the works and seduce me with his Stillpoints! :eyebrows:
As ever, I shall remain entirely open-minded.......
For me, when it comes to these matters, detailed experimentation is the key to satisfaction. I fundamentally believe that, in hi-fi, one must delve into the minutiae, in order to truly ascertain what is happening, before arriving at a proper conclusion, and resist the temptation to make snap judgements. That will certainly always be my modus operandi in audio, as that approach has served me very well so far! :)
Marco.
Hi Dave,
You could be right, however, I've purloined a Clearaudio Clever Clamp (from a mate, who like you is clearing out his T/T paraphernalia and going all-digital), and as expected I guess, this works really well, in terms of gently clamping records to the Harmonicer/Achromat combo, providing the best interface I've heard so far between record and platter.
I'm also finding that the virtual complete removal of any mass, provided by a record weight (as the Clever Clamp weighs next to nothing), is a distinct sonic advantage with the Technics...
Here's the little chap in question: http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7621/8jze.jpg
You Tube video, here:
7RZ1_NtWvJE
Marco.
Blimey Marco, it seems like only yesterday you were telling me how essential it was to use a heavy weight when I was extolling low mass solutions!
I made myself a 'Clever Clamp' clone not long ago to investigate:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/1-7.jpg
It is a clever idea (though not a new one), but I didn't think it worked all that well (it mostly grips the record spindle rather than anything else) and certainly didn't sound as good as other clamps I have.
------------
To be honest there is so much in this thread that I either don't agree with, think is an over simplification, is unsupported fancy or just empty marketing rhetoric that I just don't know where to start!
Time to concentrate on other things and stop reading this thread I think.
Blimey Marco, it seems like only yesterday you were telling me how essential it was to use a heavy weight when I was extolling low mass solutions!
Lol - not so much a heavy weight, but just a weight. I've never liked using anything heavier than the (380g) Bruil.
I made myself a 'Clever Clamp' clone not long ago to investigate:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/1-7.jpg
That looks superb, Mark! Do you still have it kicking about? If so, I wouldn't mind trying it, and will buy it from you if I like it.
The bottom line here of course it how things sound on your own turntable and in your own system. In that respect, I'm not surprised that we've had different results with our respective 'Clever Clamps', as our T/Ts and systems are totally different!! ;)
I'm not for one second saying that my current favoured solution is universally applicable. As ever, results achieved will very much be T/T and system-dependant. The results I'm reporting are therefore mainly for the benefit of Technics T/T users, and for them to either try what I've done, if their interest is sufficiently piqued, or not.
All I can state is that the combination of the Clearuadio Harmonicer mat/Achromat/Clever Clamp (in conjunction with my Funk platter) are currently producing the best sounds I've ever heard from my turntable - and I can't say any fairer than that :)
Marco.
Now on it's way to Marco's (or it will be when I find it... - pretty sure I know where it is :)).
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/1-7.jpg
I look forward to receiving it, Mark. The quality of your designs is always first class (I admire your perfectionism) and your 'Clever Clamp' clone is no exception :)
Marco.
That's kind of you to say so Marco. I don't normally make copies of existing designs, but in this case I wanted to try the idea out :).
P.S. Just found it too - will aim to post tomorrow
Nice one, Mark. I think it'll look really good on the Techy - it'll also be interesting finding out if it sounds any different to the Clearaudio item.
Thanks again :)
Marco.
Just an update to say that I'm now in possession of Mark's beautifully made clone of the Clearaudio Clever-Clamp. Not only does it look superb, like an intricately designed jewel, but for some reason (and I believe Mark has some thoughts on the matter) it also sounds better!
In any case, I'm delighted with the combination of Mark's clamp, Clearaudio Harmonicer mat/Achromat, in conjunction with the Funk Firm (MKI) platter, which is currently producing the best sounds I've ever heard from my turntable.
I've also taken delivery of a Mike New ETP platter, which work considerations aside (this is my busiest time of the year for picture framing), I should manage to listen to it before I go down to Martin's place on Sunday, where many interesting tests and comparisons will be made, so look out for our conclusions there, folks! :)
Marco.
so look out for our conclusions there, folks!
Preferences, surely? :eyebrows:
Sure, lol, but I intend to nail the platter/mat thing when I'm there, and in that respect form a conclusion that satisifes me :)
Therefore, I'll know then whether to stick with what I've got (Harmonicer/Achro/Funk) or sell it all and replace it with an ETP platter (with the possibility of retaining the mats).
Btw, do you still prefer using the Stillpoints weight, now that the ETP is in the equation? I missed your conclusion on that one.
Marco.
Preferences, surely? :eyebrows:
Orders, you mean?
Btw, do you still prefer using the Stillpoints weight, now that the ETP platter is in the equation? I missed your conclusion on that one.
Yes I do, although it remains a subtle difference.
Is the subtle difference worth the outlay? ;)
Anyway, it'll be interesting comparing the low/lower-mass option (clone 'Clever Clamp'/Harmonicer mat/Achro/Funk platter) versus the high/higher mass option (Stillpoints weight and ETP platter), on the same test turntable (either yours, mine or Mike's) :cool:
Marco.
Orders, you mean?
SHUT IT!!!!
;)
Marco.
Is the subtle difference worth the outlay?
On some kind of SPPV valuation, probably not.
On an absolute scale, and as long as I didn't mind the cost, of course!
Just an update to say that I'm now in possession of Mark's beautifully made clone of the Clearaudio Clever-Clamp. Not only does it look superb, like an intricately designed jewel, but for some reason (and I believe Mark has some thoughts on the matter) it also sounds better!
I realise this thread is about the MN platter, so I will not go on too much. The clamp isn't a clone as such because there are differences, but it does use the same principle to hold the record spindle (so is a copy in that respect). The Clearaudio is injection moulded (possibly from acrylic but likely a styrene) but mine is laser cut from cast acrylic sheet. I found that the specific dimensions (less than 0.1mm) made a big difference to how much force was required to fit the clamp and how much grip it exerted on the spindle. I found my measurements by making numerous samples but this may be one reason why it sounds different to the Clearaudio (which I have only seen in pictures). Secondly, my version is fabricated from three components and this makes it stiffer and better damped than a single injection moulding - this may, or may not, be relevant. Finally, because this design was made to compare against other designs I have done, the foot part that touches the record label was made the same dimensions and from the same material as my other clamps; this is still quite a hard plastic but softer than acrylic (and finished absolutely flat) - again, this may, or may not, be relevant.
Platter up-dates, stock now available from the UK (MCRU Towers to be exact), if you are contemplating this up-grade you will not be dis-appointed.
potatoha
03-04-2014, 08:51
Anyway, it'll be interesting comparing the low/lower-mass option (clone 'Clever Clamp'/Harmonicer mat/Achro/Funk platter) versus the high/higher mass option (Stillpoints weight and ETP platter), on the same test turntable (either yours, mine or Mike's) :cool:
Marco.
Marco, don't know if you have mentioned about the comparison between the two options in the forum somewhere and I understand that you finally went for the ETP with no mat option. Could you elaborate regarding the differences? What I'd like to know is, was there any change/improvement when you placed Harmonicer on ETP platter?
John
Hi John,
Indeed there was a change: it was worse...! Basically, it 'softened' the sound and muted dynamic impact. Experience so far suggests that the ETP prefers to function 'au naturel'.
Even a Resomat, which I tried recently (and consider to be one the best T/T mats I've used), whilst very good, diluted the inherent musicality of the ETP platter, the material of which it's made from (Delrin, or a type thereof) appears, at least sonically, to be an excellent impedance match with vinyl.
That is why it seems to be that any mat used with the ETP impedes the effectiveness of the record-to-platter interface, although perhaps I may eventually find one that works.
Are you thinking of trying an ETP platter with your T/T? :)
Marco.
potatoha
03-04-2014, 09:32
Thanks for your valuable insight Marco. I'm thinking of many options at the moment. I heard the Monarch TT at the Brighton show and was very impressed by what it did. Arguably the best sounding TT at the show and one of the best matched setup IMO. Clearaudio Master Innovation I heard elsewhere sounded nothing like how it sounded in MCRU room and I suspect there was a mismatch somewhere in the chain. They just didn't gel. :scratch:
If a fully fettled Techie with an ETP platter equals or betters the Monarch then I might pursue that route.
John
The Monarch is undoubtedly a formidable beast. I'd dearly love to hear one, in comparison with my Technics. Until I do that, I simply couldn't say which, to my ears, was best. However, I'm sure that I'll get the opportunity to carry out such a comparison one day.
The only thing I don't like about the Monarch are its looks. Does it come in black? ;)
I've never been a big fan of Clearaudio T/Ts, as their presentation has always struck me as being 'too hi-fi' sounding, tonally 'bleached out', and musically, 'bereft of soul' - regardless of how 'technically correct' it was. For me, if a turntable can't boogie and make music swing, it's fit for the bin.
However, I hear that Clearaudio have been getting it together better now and, as a result, their T/Ts are more musical sounding, which has to be a good thing.
A big part of why you liked the sound of the Master Innovation in the MCRU room would've likely been a) Nick Gorham's influence on proceedings b) its synergy with the Music First kit, and c) how well the whole system was set-up, in terms of stands, attention to how it received power from the mains supply, and the optimisation of signal cables, courtesy of items from Mr Brook's extensive product range.
One of the major things that continually disappoint me about commercial hi-fi shows is how few manufacturers successfully attend to the above. Many seem to just throw their systems together, as quickly as possible, and then head for the bar! Quite simply, without proper attention to set-up, a £200k system can sound about as musically interesting as a cheap MP3 player...!
Anyway, good luck with your T/T quest. If I can be of any further help, just ask :)
Marco.
potatoha
03-04-2014, 11:29
Oh, I didn't make myself clear. I meant to say the Monarch was the best sounding TT of the show and the Clearaudio was a dissapointment. Maybe the venue was to blame. All the rooms were simply too small and didn't do justice to any of the gears exhibited. The other show at the Metropole didn't suffer this BTW. TAD room was a show stealer if you ask me. Hope they do it in a better venue next year.
Thanks for the support for my never ending quest Marco.
John
RobbieGong
03-04-2014, 12:49
Hi John,
Indeed there was a change: it was worse...! Basically, it 'softened' the sound and muted dynamic impact. Experience so far suggests that the ETP prefers to function 'au naturel'.
Even a Resomat, which I tried recently (and consider to be one the best T/T mats I've used), whilst very good, diluted the inherent musicality of the ETP platter, the material of which it's made from (Delrin, or a type thereof) appears, at least sonically, to be an excellent impedance match with vinyl.
That is why it seems to be that any mat used with the ETP impedes the effectiveness of the record-to-platter interface, although perhaps I may eventually find one that works.
Are you thinking of trying an ETP platter with your T/T? :)
Marco.
Did you ever try the ETP with the softer 3mm Techie matt Marco ? (not the horid rock hard 5mm jobbie) I think I've asked before. As you know me and at least one other found it's presentation best in our set ups. I believe John (prestonchipfryer) uses felt although I'm not absolutely sure.
Hi Rob,
Nope, matey, I haven't tried that, mainly because I don't have a soft rubber mat or a felt one, but also because I'm not a fan of the sonic effect of mats made from either material.
If I get the opportunity to try it, however, I'll let you know what I think :)
Marco.
prestonchipfryer
03-04-2014, 13:45
Did you ever try the ETP with the softer 3mm Techie matt Marco ? (not the horid rock hard 5mm jobbie) I think I've asked before. As you know me and at least one other found it's presentation best in our set ups. I believe John (prestonchipfryer) uses felt although I'm not absolutely sure.
Hi Robbie. I have used a number of mats: Oyaide, Resomat, Achromat, Rubber, Cork, Felt and Acrylic. After trying all these (daft or what?) I have found the ETP sounds best without any mat at all.
Having said that I did find, in my set-up, that a felt mat was the most usable in my system. Incidentally I use an Oyaide weight as well.
John
RobbieGong
03-04-2014, 14:18
Cheers Marco / John, As often the case it looks like systems and own environment may affect towards personal preference. I found the 3mm softer stock techie mat to not mess things up best for me. The ETP is very good indeed at alllowing the music to play with that certain rightness though, that's for sure.
Wakefield Turntables
03-04-2014, 18:40
Do you guys think I should play catch up and buy one of these. I'm still with the Cu/Al platter from yonks ago! You guys have been through ETP and then Funk platters, I'm still on my first! :lol:
Depends what you're looking for, Andy. If you're happy with what you've got, then stick with it :)
Marco.
Do you guys think I should play catch up and buy one of these. I'm still with the Cu/Al platter from yonks ago! You guys have been through ETP and then Funk platters, I'm still on my first! :lol:
What's the harm in trying one? I may do so at the end of the month.
I hope Mr MCRU has a few?
What's the harm in trying one? I may do so at the end of the month.
I hope Mr MCRU has a few?
I put you one aside ages ago! :)
Wakefield Turntables
04-04-2014, 07:27
Depends what you're looking for, Andy. If you're happy with what you've got, then stick with it :)
Marco.
I love the original. I've never seen a need to change. The thing I personally love is it's ability not to flatter a recording. You get to hear if the recording is crap or not. Now if the new platter can still do that and improve what I'm hearing then it might be a buy.
What's the harm in trying one? I may do so at the end of the month.
I hope Mr MCRU has a few?
Correct, might give Dave a call..
DAVE........
I love the original. I've never seen a need to change. The thing I personally love is it's ability not to flatter a recording. You get to hear if the recording is crap or not. Now if the new platter can still do that and improve what I'm hearing then it might be a buy.
Do you think I'd be using one if it didn't? ;)
Remember that I've used all three platters (MN aluminium, Funk and MN ETP), so I know intimately what they all do well.
Marco.
I've used Technics > MN Aluminium > Funk > MN ETP and the sound quality improved at every stage. Midrange neutrality, fine detail and lack of any harshness make the ETP a stand-out. Bass quality is extremely good, too.
Wakefield Turntables
04-04-2014, 10:32
Do you think I'd be using one if it didn't? ;)
Remember that I've used all three platters (MN aluminium, Funk and MN ETP), so I know intimately what they all do well.
Marco.
Yep I dont doubt that at all. ;)
I've used Technics > MN Aluminium > Funk > MN ETP and the sound quality improved at every stage. Midrange neutrality, fine detail and lack of any harshness make the ETP a stand-out. Bass quality is extremely good, too.
That sounds promising. Whilst I appreciate Bass is not the be all and end all of hifi reproduction, it does remain quite important to me as I have a large (~50%) rock collection and bass heavy material. The lack of harshness is also a stand out, I fell out with AT cartridges on my techie and went the Ortonfon route and whilst this improved things no end I can still detect a shrill edge on some recordings. Perhaps this platter could removed this?
Looks like one might be heading my way. :eek:
RobbieGong
04-04-2014, 11:40
Yep I dont doubt that at all. ;)
That sounds promising. Whilst I appreciate Bass is not the be all and end all of hifi reproduction, it does remain quite important to me as I have a large (~50%) rock collection and bass heavy material. The lack of harshness is also a stand out, I fell out with AT cartridges on my techie and went the Ortonfon route and whilst this improved things no end I can still detect a shrill edge on some recordings. Perhaps this platter could removed this?
Looks like one might be heading my way. :eek:
I'd say go for it, It's not like you wont get something for your current platter. BTW - You've spent some serious money on kit and ancileries by the look of things. I think some pics are overdue ;)
Wakefield Turntables
04-04-2014, 12:20
I'd say go for it, It's not like you wont get something for your current platter. BTW - You've spent some serious money on kit and ancileries by the look of things. I think some pics are overdue ;)
Well you can see my 301 and how it turned out here
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?14850-Garrard-301-restoration-project
and my technics thread can be found here
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?9568-Me-and-the-1210-are-gunna-have-us-some-me-time&highlight=1210+gonna
My external x-o for the Tannoys can be seen in the RFC news thread forum
I'm a little shy of taking photo's as I'm crap at it.
ChrisKemp
12-04-2015, 08:26
Can any of you lucky ETP owners please make a Youtube video with the platter spinning and playing a record? It would be great to see a moving ETP and not just pictures:)
Just put the picture on your deck, and press start. :eyebrows:
ChrisKemp
12-04-2015, 08:37
Just put the picture on your deck, and press start. :eyebrows:
Hahaha, good one Kevin:lol:
But there are so many Youtube clips of the Technics, but they all relate to DJs. I put a couple of clips out, just to show that the 1210 is a hifi deck. But there are no videos of ETP platters or high end tonearms:)
allthingsanalogue
15-11-2015, 21:23
How does one remove the speed sensor cog from the old platter, the magnet comes off easily but the cog looks like its been press fit.
I thought that the speed sensor had to be aligned to the magnet.
Every replacement platter I have had has always had this fitted.
allthingsanalogue
15-11-2015, 21:40
I thought that the speed sensor had to be aligned to the magnet.
Every replacement platter I have had has always had this fitted.
Ahh, so the MN Platter comes with a cog. That makes sense.
Mike_New
16-11-2015, 02:46
Hi Andrew,
All will be revealed when you get the Platter and Base Plate together with the Instructions.
If you try to anticipate things then mistakes may occur.
The central pulse generator is not removable and stays with the platter.
ChrisKemp
21-11-2015, 23:54
Just bought a Analogue Crystal Mat (aka Nagaoka) as a xmas gift to daddy:eyebrows: Hope it will make the sound even better on top of the ETP platter...
1000 Krone says it will! ;)
Marco.
ChrisKemp
22-11-2015, 00:36
Hehehe, good one Marco! Since you said it was so great I just had to get one. Not easy to find any more...
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