View Full Version : 'Digital Glare' - is it really the medium at fault?
Many people prefer listening to analogue sources over digital, even if they have a very competent digital set up. I've always counted myself amongst them even though I can happily listen to my CD players for hours on end without an 'fatigue' creeping in. Nevertheless, swap back to, say, vinyl, after a long digital session and it is like relaxing into a hot bath. Why? Well the one thing that has always irritated me with digital is the 'glare'. I am not alone as I have heard and read of may people saying the same thing. The sound is good but there is an effect in the mid and top that somehow diminishes the 'listenability' compared to analogue. This is often refered to as 'glare' but other words can be used to describe the effect, for example 'sheen', 'brightness', 'hardness', 'fowardness'. and 'spotlit'. There are various methods used to ameliorate this - using valves in the player or DAC, a valve buffer, rolling off the top end of the player, Pioneer's Legato Link system and so on. Pretty much everyone agrees this is an issue.
I have always assumed that this was down to the nature of digital itself. Until recently when I installed a passive pre-amp into my system, and discovered that the glare has disappeared altogether. I now have a wonderfully neutral and 'hear-through' mid and top, and what's more, cymbals are now being resolved correctly, with lovely decay and reverb, something I have never heard from CD before on any system at any price or level of competence. Listening to Steely Dan's 'Gaucho' last night and it was like I had never really heard this recording before. Pure, perfect sound forever? Well...yes. I had really assumed that digital glare was a limitation of the medium, that it was on the disc. But it seems that it isn't. And thinking about it, back in the olden days when I would tape other peoples CDs onto cassette, it did make the glare vanish - and I had always put this down to a degradation in the sound from using a budget tape deck. But I have also read about people recording CD onto a quality R2R and getting a 'better' sound. How could this be?
Now apologies if you already knew this. But I am wondering what the reason for this revelation is. A pet theory I have just pulled out of the air is that the output level of most if not all CD players and DACs is just way too high and that running that signal through an active pre-amp i.e another gain stage is both unnecessary and counter-productive. It is that extra gain stage that is causing the 'digital glare'. Copying the CD to R2R or cassette bypasses that extra gain stage and with the lower output of those devices, the problem is sidestepped. Now I suppose this is not the case for all active pre-amps , just those several dozens (both stand alone and integrated) that I have heard. Fair enough if that is the case. Does anyone else relate to what I am going on about here? Is there possibly another reason for this effect? Your opinions welcomed.
Firebottle
16-11-2013, 13:20
I think you might well be right with the high level being the problem.
Maybe the high level of mid and top are creating more intermod distortion that is making itself heard via the `glare`.
:cool: Alan
I find it's many modern recordings that are tiring, whether cd or vinyl.
Rothchild
16-11-2013, 15:44
I think the analogue part of the chain (everything after the converter, including the bits in the cd player or dac) have a bigger impact on the overall sound than the digital parts. As we saw in the volume levelling thread, it's likely that there's a lot going on with regards to gain structure (in particular) in HiFi systems that's not being attended to, which could make simple, cheap and significant improvements to people's listening pleasure.
I've not looked to see if they are readily available but it should be fairly easy to create a test / callibration cd, with tones at particular levels and use an spl meter (and potentially a voltmeter) to callibrate the gainstaging in a HiFi (eg to work out if the output of your dac / cd player is 'nominal' or 'hot' etc)
I find it's many modern recordings that are tiring, whether cd or vinyl.
How modern is 'modern'? With my current set up quality digital recordings really do shine whereas with some AAD recordings the limitations are shown up by comparison. I don't have much recent music but they do tend to be a bit hot, especially 'best of' compilations. An age old problem and not related to the digital glare issue though. I'd like to try a cd player or DAC with a lower output than standard just out of interest. Can anyone recommend one?
Oldpinkman
16-11-2013, 17:14
I don't think its the amp - gain stage, although what I'm about to say doesn't explain what you are hearing Martin
For me the "glare" went 25 years ago when I first heard DaCapo 22 bit. Actually, maybe the glare went with the other filters too, certainly 1307, but I preferred the overall balance of sound with 22 bit. JW and AK scratch each others eyes out as to whether HDCD or 24 bit is the best, but I believe there is consensus that both are even better than 22 bit (never heard one, but I think Arthur said he has HDCD somewhere - so I'll add it to my shopping list for the next visit)
So what? Well - I would stand by that assertion whether using the Pip preamp I use in active or passive mode. Even in active preamp mode, DaCapo is glare free. So I agree - its not inherent in the CD technology - its poor application. But it's not as simple as gain stages
Also as someone recently pointed out (Gordon??) a lot of the problem with CD's is poor recordings - or rather poor CD mastering. Having now listened to a few CD's since realising this, I have good and bad. Many of my CD's are really poor even with DaCapo. I hadn't appreciated until I enquired about getting a vinyl pressing of Dave Migden that although there is one master recording, that in turn is then mastered for CD and vinyl differently. Clearly some CD mastering was pants. And many recordings of the early CD era (and some recent ones) are poor too. But get a good CD and it can be glare free and so close to vinyl as makes little difference. (Well, jolly good anyway)
Active or passive (cheating a bit here since passive is from memory a long time ago till I get my Pip 2 fixed). The point is they are glare free now too on Active - however much I will probably choose to have passive when I have it.
'S my thoughts :cool:
Hi Richard
It may be that the Pip is one of those active pre-amps that does not introduce glare. I'm sure there must be some around.
I would like to get away from the suggestions that this is down to poor production/mastering of some recordings. We all know this is true of some recordings but it is not the case for an awful lot of material - see the example I gave of Gaucho - one of the most expensive and one of the best recordings ever made - Digital Glare is something else entirely and affects all recordings equally.
Oldpinkman
16-11-2013, 17:27
Sure. Do you have Gaucho on CD and vinyl? I have it on vinyl only
Two vinyl copies, Cd remaster and the DVD-A, I'm afraid..
Gordon Steadman
16-11-2013, 17:58
I've used a passive pre-amp now for about 15 years. I must admit I've never been particularly aware of any 'glare' on Cds although I have always used a Pioneer PD-S901 which has legato Link I think. Sounded pretty close to vinyl without having that total believability somehow.
Certainly, the best Cds are very close indeed and I get great enjoyment from the music. As I have to use the Marantz CD63SE at present, its not quite so good but I still wouldn't describe the sound as having glare so maybe the passive is helping.
I'm not sure if the Firebottle has an active or passive pre but that's resting with the Quads for the winter, so haven't spent much time with Cds on that. I bought a Pioneer CD7700 as a possible replacement for the 901 but its nowhere near as good so its in bedroom 1 system which my wife uses for ballet exercises - no sitting and listening for her there.
All this certainly gives a lie to the idea that all CD players sound the same:)
Theadmans
16-11-2013, 19:36
My integrated amp is a Creek 4330 which has a passive pre-amp stage.
In addition, I have a Musical Fidelity X10D Tube buffer which has had a full makeover of all components and valves by Mike Grierson at Rock Grotto:-
http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/1961/work-progress?page=15
I can honestly say that using the modded X10D with my Bushmaster Mark 2 I do not suffer from "glare" with Digital at all. That's said I always check the Steve Hoffman forum before buying any recordings - if the SH people don't give it the thumbs up I rarely buy. Here is the SH take on digital "Gaucho" :-
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/best-redbook-edition-of-steely-dans-gaucho.63860/
Over the years I have acquired a number of high quality vinyl rips. To be honest though I invariably prefer the dynamics of digital versions of the same recordings on my setup.
Interesting link to the Steve Hoffman forum so thanks for that - from a few years ago so no-one it seems had the latest remaster to compare. Note some people still complaining about 'brightness'.
We now have three passive pre users - including myself - who do not get digital glare. I think I am on to something here.
I don’t know :scratch:, almost 40 years of listening to music, live, in studios, on better than average stereos, tape, vinyl, CDs, and now file based and I haven’t got a clue what “Digital glare” is.
Of course, I can hear a difference between a vinyl set up and digitally based system at least I have been able to in the past :eyebrows:
I didn’t like CD replay, at least nothing I can recall hearing and I’ve never owned a state of the art CD player. But, digital glare (?) it’s not even something I associate with even CD replay.
Tiring sound for me usually means bad use of compression in the recording mix; nothing to do with the medium that reproduces it, but I’ve heard this on plenty of modern vinyl so…….
In, fact I can write here with total confidence that my digital file based system doesn’t glare :D
when I get such, which isnt too often, I run it through a valve buffer which seems to clear it up....I know it is not everyones cup of tea, but I have my system wired so at a flik of a buuton I can listen either through the dac or the buffer.
I am not sure, but I suspect what you are describing as "glare" may be the sound of op-amp output stages being forced into operating in class B
Can you expand on that Nick? I get glare from my Croft pre amp too and that does not use op-amps.
Can you expand on that Nick? I get glare from my Croft pre amp too and that does not use op-amps.
Well, I was talking with respect to CD players. Whats feeding the Croft?
wee tee cee
17-11-2013, 07:04
I changed over to a passive pre and felt the whole sound relax-as if it was forced and straining with my active. You summed up my experience very well. The noise war CD recordings can be quite a bit louder than older stuff.
Well, I was talking with respect to CD players. Whats feeding the Croft?
A Technics SLP1200 or a Sony CDP791E or a Sony CDPXB930E. Standard Jap CD players, nothing oddball.
The Barbarian
17-11-2013, 09:48
I have CD's & also records that have been transfered from digital {the same ones used on the CD}, they sound different to me.. Any help Macca?
FWIW I don't think the medium is at fault.
I have a passive pre (high quality Alps RK50), an active valve pre (and recently two solid state active preamps).
I think any glare or roughness can stem from either a naff pre or a naff digital source. What I believe is very cool about passives is that you can rule the preamp out as being problematical or not, since it is essentially doing very little.
Replacing an active pre with a passive and reducing or eliminating glare means the active pre was at fault.
After using the RK50 pot for years, I seem to be into the active valve pre even though I know it is "impure" LOL.
I have CD's & also records that have been transfered from digital {the same ones used on the CD}, they sound different to me.. Any help Macca?
Your talking about CD and vinyl taken from the exact same digital master? I have some too and yes they sound different but that is not surprising as the storage and replay mechanisms are totally different. You have some good RTR machines, have you tried copying a CD to RTR and playing it back? In theory that should banish the digital glare without harming the SQ in any appreciable way.
Following on from my previous post I do think there are quite a few digital sources that do suffer from some degree of digital glare or hardness. Which is why finding a good digital source seems to be a much harder problem that it should be.
. What I believe is very cool about passives is that you can rule the preamp out as being problematical or not, since it is essentially doing very little.
Replacing an active pre with a passive and reducing or eliminating glare means the active pre was at fault.
After using the RK50 pot for years, I seem to be into the active valve pre even though I know it is "impure" LOL.
This is exactly my point. I am theorising that the problem is the gain stage in the pre-amp - replace that with a passive pot and suddenly you have CD replay that is just as, if not more listenable than good vinyl replay.
'Vinyl glare' doesn't exist because the output of the phono stage is much lower than that of a DAC or CD player so the active pre does not introduce (what I assume is) distortion or noise. Or both.
Although I am still interested to hear more from Nick as he is suggesting that the problem lies in the player.
The Barbarian
17-11-2013, 10:22
Your talking about CD and vinyl taken from the exact same digital master? I have some too and yes they sound different but that is not surprising as the storage and replay mechanisms are totally different. You have some good RTR machines, have you tried copying a CD to RTR and playing it back? In theory that should banish the digital glare without harming the SQ in any appreciable way.
Yes same master.. Your right regarding the R+R..
Yes same master.. Your right regarding the R+R..
I've not tried it myself as I have no RTR (I should really sort that out :)) but you are confirming what I have read elsewhere. If the glare originates in the CD player - or is inherent in the medium, then it would transfer to the tape copy. But it doesn't.
The Barbarian
17-11-2013, 10:32
I also posted a few years ago that CD itself was not the problem imho, I came to this conclusion because by buying a CD of a certain album that i also had on vinyl, recorded the vinyl onto CD-R then compared the two, the CD-R copy of the vinyl record sounded just like the actual vinyl from whence it came.
My finding were then that the CD-R had no influence over the sound. The shop bought CD {i could not listern to} because it seemed to be too loud.
Neither did i blame the CD Player because the CD-R did not sound loud or any glare..
Although I am still interested to hear more from Nick as he is suggesting that the problem lies in the player.
Well, I am saying that I have seen the problem in the output stage of CD players, not that there is only one glare, or that its always the same cause. But I do know that in the past that adding unity gain buffers (valve and solid state) to the output of a CD player can make things sound more relaxed. Adding two of them doesn't make it more relaxed, so I believe it was the CD player to what it was driving interface that was the cause of the problem.
Assuming we are agreed on what is glare in this context (which I am not sure we are), I can think of a number of things that could do it, in the case of the Croft, it may be the mosfet that a lot of them have as the output buffer, it could also be the effect of metal film resistors, or it could be the choice of valves, it could also be the pots. Good quality pots are hard to find.
Nick
if there is more than one type of glare and one cause, and there could well be, then that would make some sense. Are we talking about the same thing? It is so hard to describe these things in words. As I said in the OP I can listen to my players for a long time without fatigue - they sound good - but with the passive pre in place there is a step up in quality of resolution. Just like if you reduce the noise floor significantly - a lot of crud that you didn't realise was there before suddenly drops away. That is the effect of the glare (and its removal) that I am talking about. I think John (Welder) missed this point in his post a bit further back.
My Croft pre is all valve btw, no Mosfets, although as it is a budget pre I am sure the pots are nothing fancy.
My Croft pre is all valve btw, no Mosfets, although as it is a budget pre I am sure the pots are nothing fancy.
Well, I dont know which one you have, but certainly a lot I have seen have a cunning hybrid circuit with a mosfet source follower on each output making what is a lot like a composite anode follower.
I have the micro-basic pre-amp that came out around 2009. I've had a look inside it a few times, I'm pretty certain there are no transistors. There are 3 valves, a power supply and lots of tiny resistors and not much else.
Ok, As I say, any number of things could do something that could be described as glare. In general I find the thing I call glare to be related to an increasing lever of distortion with frequency, often caused by something having to work harder driving a capacitive load and the consequence of avoiding slew rate limiting by the use of feedback of some sort.
Ok, As I say, any number of things could do something that could be described as glare. In general I find the thing I call glare to be related to an increasing lever of distortion with frequency, often caused by something having to work harder driving a capacitive load and the consequence of avoiding slew rate limiting by the use of feedback of some sort.
Which is what Alan said at the start - intermodulation distortion. The question is - is this related to too high an output level or to something else, assuming we have banished the idea that it is digital in itself that is the issue?
Having said that I have tried 10dB of attenuation with Rothwells but it makes the music sound like it is being squeezed through a hosepipe.
I think we're in postulation city here... I don't think anyone will be able to provide a definite answer Martin. Not saying discussing it isn't worthwhile though.
If the passive works then keep using it... unless you don't have enough gain, in which case look for another active? Croft gear has a good rep, not something I'd go for but I'm sure decent money can be had for it.
Which passive is it, a Tisbury or something? Just curious.
Mr Kipling
17-11-2013, 21:40
Do you have a cd player with variable headphone output? If so try that as a connection to the preamp.
In the '80s Walt Jung did an article in The Audio Amateur on forcing the op-amps in the output stage of a cd player to operate in class A. I'll have to dig it out.
The problem I've had with cd hasn't been glare but an apparent lack of resolution and flattening of the soundstage. It used to be a problem, but is less so now. Maybe I've just become used to it.
I think we're in postulation city here... I don't think anyone will be able to provide a definite answer Martin. Not saying discussing it isn't worthwhile though.
If the passive works then keep using it... unless you don't have enough gain, in which case look for another active? Croft gear has a good rep, not something I'd go for but I'm sure decent money can be had for it.
Which passive is it, a Tisbury or something? Just curious.
I'm using an NVA P90. I tried a Tisbury that Jerry lent me which is what got me into the whole passive thing. The NVA is considerably better, especially with bass slam and attack on transients but it is about 3 times the price. AS it is a passive it doesn't give any gain, just attenuates the output of the source. If anything there is not enough attenuation with CD as the source. And I agree we won't get a definitive answer but it is useful to see what suggestions and opinions people have as that can lead to a testable hypothesis. Or something ;)
Speaking of which - Stephen - your idea of using the headphone output is genius, I'd not considered that. My SLP1200 has a variable output, I just need to find a lead that will fit it. Cheers :)
Well, not intermod specifically, though of course that will happen as a secondary effect. What I am describing is the result (as I said) of the combination of outputs stages that make the use of feedback to ensure low output impedance and low distortion, having their effective level of feedback dropping (or more correctly being used up) because the output stage is trying to drive into a capacitive (well any reactive load I guess) load. Its a more complex situation than just being output level dependent.
FWIW, I heard a good example last week. A DAC that sounded great playing into a resistive load, but failed badly when driving an inductive one.
Nick I am struggling to understand the difference here between the inductive and capacitive loads - we are talking about the load that the CD player 'sees' through the passive pre and into the power amp? Or am I way off?
Mr Kipling
17-11-2013, 22:27
Can't claim originality for the headphone output Martin. Jimmy Hughes suggested it decades ago.
Doesn't matter about who suggested it first - you suggested it to me here and now and I would never have thought of it otherwise.
What the source is driving into. the combination of the preamp and whatever is afterwards as a network, or the first stage of a active preamp. Plus whatever LCR components are added by any interconnect in use.
Right so I did understand sort of. Presumably there are optimum parameters for the combined network the source is driving?
Maybe, but I prefer to use a driver that is agnostic about what its driving.
magiccarpetride
19-11-2013, 18:48
Now apologies if you already knew this. But I am wondering what the reason for this revelation is. A pet theory I have just pulled out of the air is that the output level of most if not all CD players and DACs is just way too high and that running that signal through an active pre-amp i.e another gain stage is both unnecessary and counter-productive. It is that extra gain stage that is causing the 'digital glare'. Copying the CD to R2R or cassette bypasses that extra gain stage and with the lower output of those devices, the problem is sidestepped. Now I suppose this is not the case for all active pre-amps , just those several dozens (both stand alone and integrated) that I have heard. Fair enough if that is the case. Does anyone else relate to what I am going on about here? Is there possibly another reason for this effect? Your opinions welcomed.
My personal experiences do not relate to CD players but to the digital transport (i.e. Squeezebox Touch). I have noticed that when I ssh into the Touch (I remotely log in to the box; Squeezebox Touch is basically a micro computer running Linux OS), I can play with various job priorities as well as with buffer sizes. And often times the changes I make to the digital transport have noticeable impact on the sound quality (and by 'quality' I don't mean how good or bad it sounds, more like different taste or flavour of the sound).
Since I personally prefer 'wetter', 'greasier' sound, I have tweaked the job priorities and the buffer sizes on the Touch to deliver such sound. It's the sound that has more substance, more heaviness to it, as opposed to more transparency and airiness. The best way I could describe those differences would be to ask you to imagine a musical instrument, say a cello, painted with glossy oil paint, and then imagine the same instrument painted with more delicate acrylic paint. I prefer the effect that the oil paint gives.
Where does 'digital glare' fit into this? I don't know. All I can say is that, to my ears, good analog sound reproduction seems more like a soundscape rendered in oil paints, while a decent digital system sounds more like it's been rendered using acrylics. Both can have its pros and cons. I think it's down to personal taste...
IMO a lot of this "glare", "sheen" and "fatigue" effects associated with digital are due to oversampling, upsampling, digital filtering etc. As Nick's mentioned, I think the other key aspect is down to so many DACs / CDPs using 'textbook' opamp circuits with poor power supplies. For long-term listening and an ultimately analogue sound, I've found that only true multibit, non-oversampling DACs can exceed what I get from my vinyl setup in terms of dynamic contrast, timbre & tone, naturalness etc. Of course some people *like* digital sound (especially the resolution), nothing wrong with this, I think my DAC preferences would go down better with vinyl or tape fans.
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