Any expert mechanics on here?

[Effem]

My wife's car is driving me demented :steam:

Bloody Kia Rio of 2003 vintage and it's failed it's MOT on emissions. The CO2 reading is fine, but the Lambda says it's running too lean which is the failure parameter.

So, I change the air and fuel filters (The air filter was BLACK with muck), I have cleaned the MAF sensor with the correct cleaner, replaced the Idle Control Valve and the O2 sensor, yet still it threw up a P1166 OBD code and the check engine light came on again when I took it for it's last retest. I have checked, checked and re-checked there are no vacuum leaks. At the moment there is no check engine light on - for how long I don't now.

When the engine is started from cold, the revs are up and down like a whore's drawers, almost stalling then rising up to nearly 2000rpm. Within a couple of minutes though it runs and ticks over fine. I thought I had cured this problem, but this numpty forgot to reconnect the MAF sensor when rebuilding and it ticked over fine - until I put the MAF sensor connector back on :( All the "experts" have said it's the idle control valve but that has been replaced. Talking of experts on forums, I notice that it's the same names over and over again giving the same stock answers that consist of replacing almost ever bloody thing sequentially, but not one single definitive answer to a single definitive problem :lol:

I am not really expecting an informed reply on a HI-FI FORUM :lol: but you never know what pearls of wisdom are hidden away in here :eyebrows:

[MikeMusic]

Talking to a customer today about his Kia
He reckons his dealer in Gatwick is the very best
His dad also has 2 Kias he takes there and is also highly impressed

Must be worth a phone call
A visit is say 200 miles. Not perfect but could be for the fix

[Ali Tait]

Could be the lambda sensor?

[Effem]

Could be the lambda sensor?

Had a brand new one fitted

[Ali Tait]

Ok, if it's idling fine when MAF connector is removed, then that would suggest to me that the MAF is faulty, despite you cleaning it, or there is a split in the hose. Sometimes cleaning it can do more harm than good even with the correct cleaner.

So either faulty MAF, or you have missed a split in the vacuum hose. Check it yet again!

No that I'm an expert by any means, but I've had similar in the past with my Alfas.

[Canetoad]

The problem is it's a PIECE OF SHIT Frank. :)

[bobbasrah]

Had a brand new one fitted

Sorry Frank, that it is new does not mean it is not faulty, it happens... Made that mistake before... car of that age will have a large fault/cure database, a specialist on that marque should be able to pin it down quickly...

[Effem]

The problem is it's a PIECE OF SHIT Frank. :)

You tell me I something I already DON'T know already Bernie :lol:

It really is a bag of shit for sure. The wiring is decomposing, it leaks like a sieve, it has more knocks and rattles than you can shake a stick at, but it is a nice blue colour :lol:

[Effem]

Sorry Frank, that it is new does not mean it is not faulty, it happens... Made that mistake before... car of that age will have a large fault/cure database, a specialist on that marque should be able to pin it down quickly...

I can wield a multimeter myself and I have the voltage parameters for the sensors, but all the connectors are well bound up and can't get a probe into them to check the voltages, so not much help when they say "check for 0.8v at idle".

You would think that after 10+ years of these things being around there would be a huge pool of knowledge how to fix them easily, especially so when an internet search reveals hundreds of owners with identical problems to mine appearing regularly. The response from the internet wise ones is to replace a long list of components until the fault clears, because a computer fault code doesn't necessarily mean THAT is the faulty component :scratch: I could do that myself IF there was a heap of spare money in the bank account to play with and not take it to a garage where they will do the same for £50+ an hour :eek:

Anybody want to nick the bastid thing so I an claim on the insurance? :rfl:

[archiesdad]

Anybody want to nick the bastid thing so I an claim on the insurance? :rfl:

The petrol money for me to do it would be more than it's worth:lol:, if I'm in at Kia tomorrow I'll ask at the service for ideas.

[Ali Tait]

I can wield a multimeter myself and I have the voltage parameters for the sensors, but all the connectors are well bound up and can't get a probe into them to check the voltages, so not much help when they say "check for 0.8v at idle".

You would think that after 10+ years of these things being around there would be a huge pool of knowledge how to fix them easily, especially so when an internet search reveals hundreds of owners with identical problems to mine appearing regularly. The response from the internet wise ones is to replace a long list of components until the fault clears, because a computer fault code doesn't necessarily mean THAT is the faulty component :scratch: I could do that myself IF there was a heap of spare money in the bank account to play with and not take it to a garage where they will do the same for £50+ an hour :eek:

Anybody want to nick the bastid thing so I an claim on the insurance? :rfl:

And everyone says Alfas are unreliable...

I have two, one 12 and another 20 years old. Never let me down. Get the odd issue for sure, but nowt the stops the mighty V6 heart from beating..

[Effem]

if I'm in at Kia tomorrow I'll ask at the service for ideas.

Thanks Martin, I would appreciate that :)

[Ali Tait]

Frank, you mentioned the filter was black. For me, the first rule is keep them serviced!

I change the oil every 3k religiously, and change filters every second oil change.

Overkill you might say, but several years ago I ran a 2.0L 166 and did 220,000 miles in four years travelling to site, and it never let me down once.

Look after them and they will look after you...

[Effem]

Frank, you mentioned the filter was black. For me, the first rule is keep them serviced!



Not had the car long and it was allegedly "serviced" before the missus took delivery of it :rolleyes: Taught me a lesson that before I part with cash to a dealer ever again I will for sure lift the bonnet up and check filters, oil, etc., has actually been changed, rather than accepting what the swine says :steam:

[Ali Tait]

Aye, never take their word for it. Check oil level too, if it's not right at the max, they've not been looking after it properly.

It never ceases to amaze me, the amount of folk the complain about problems with their cars, when they've never looked after them properly in the first place. It's not rocket surgery..

[NRG]

First thing I thought of was MAF especially when you said the filter was filthy....I've only had two MAF failures (on different cars) but cleaning never worked on either of them ;)

[Magna Audio]

Usual wisdom with revs up and down is she's drawing air from somewhere, but then she settles... That sounds like a prob with a control valve or system not behaving until warm. Or an air drawing circuit being excluded when warm.

They are a bugger / over complicated aren't they. The old dirty diesels would run forever on cooking oil...

At least you don't have a particulates filter to deal with on that age car...
Are you sure the new parts are all as should be esp. the MAF?

If you are on the hifi wigwam you could try PM'ing pappalazerou, he services cars mostly VAG I think though. If you like I could forward your symptoms and see what he says.

Do let us know how you get on...

[Effem]

Usual wisdom with revs up and down is she's drawing air from somewhere, but then she settles... That sounds like a prob with a control valve or system not behaving until warm. Or an air drawing circuit being excluded when warm.

They are a bugger / over complicated aren't they. The old dirty diesels would run forever on cooking oil...

At least you don't have a particulates filter to deal with on that age car...
Are you sure the new parts are all as should be esp. the MAF?

If you are on the hifi wigwam you could try PM'ing pappalazerou, he services cars mostly VAG I think though. If you like I could forward your symptoms and see what he says.

Do let us know how you get on...

I have replaced the air filter, fuel filter, only CLEANED the MAF, replaced the idle control valve.

It's either too much air or not enough fuel, or I have two seperate problems to contend with. The cold start revs up/down "cures" itself within a minute and then it idles evenly once warmed up. Just on the point of stalling it picks itself up and revs up to around 2k. From then on it runs just fine with no loss of power at any point.

The second issue is that it's running lean according to the Lambda sniffer (The CO2 is spot on), yet the plugs are a nice dry pale caramel colour when I whipped them out :scratch: On the OBD scanner the waveform from the O2 sensor is very erratic, but is that a faulty sensor or the car fighting to control something else that's amiss? What bugs me is that you spend a small fortune on an O2 sensor but they won't take it back if it's been installed - even though it may be genuinely faulty :steam:

The general consensus is that the MAF may be up the creek, especially when the revs smoothed out when I unplugged it as it was misbehaving. My fear is that if I buy a new MAF which isn't cheap and I still have no resolution to the problem and not much money left then to plough into it further. If someone with experience and knowledge can say for certainty it's the MAF then I will proceed on that advice.

I know Phil (Papa lazarou) on the Wam very well and used to speak to him almost daily a few years back. We never fell out but his views have changed which I didn't agree with, plus I don't visit the Wam at all now for the same reasons.

[StanleyB]

On both occasions when my SAAB had a similar fault it was the air mass sensor. This sensor tends to work OK when the weather is warm, even if it is faulty. But once the weather gets cold or the air pressure is lower (like when you are higher from sea level) it will start playing up.
Taking into account that many of these kind of parts come from just a handful of manufacturers, I would tend to suspect that it is the same culprit irrespective of make of car.

[archiesdad]

Ideas thrown at me today suggest it's the maf and problems with that causing the O2 sensor working overtime to correct a fault doubling your problem, it may be the maf operates ok at open throttle rather than idle meaning the co2 and plugs seem fine. someone with decent diagnostic equipment who will only charge a minimal fee for f/finding are few and far between and unfortunately my mate is too far away for you.
I work for a motor factors and we supply item like a lambda sensor in sealed bags, once opened they cannot be returned-unless faulty- but they are returned to the supplier for checking before any refund is made, too many cowboys were buying parts willy nilly as a means of fault finding, and once fitted and returned I can't sell them again as new.

[Effem]

Ideas thrown at me today suggest it's the maf and problems with that causing the O2 sensor working overtime to correct a fault doubling your problem, it may be the maf operates ok at open throttle rather than idle meaning the co2 and plugs seem fine. someone with decent diagnostic equipment who will only charge a minimal fee for f/finding are few and far between and unfortunately my mate is too far away for you.
I work for a motor factors and we supply item like a lambda sensor in sealed bags, once opened they cannot be returned-unless faulty- but they are returned to the supplier for checking before any refund is made, too many cowboys were buying parts willy nilly as a means of fault finding, and once fitted and returned I can't sell them again as new.

Thanks for taking the time to ask, Martin.

The general consensus then is that the MAF is misbehaving and that matters improve when it's unplugged, so today I did some resistance checks on it. Between pins 1 and 2 I am getting some 126kohms which given that the outside temperature is around 9-10 degrees C today which is way too high - around 10 times too high according to the numbers I gleaned off the internet. Across pins 1 and 3 I get just over 11k and open when the leads are reversed so there must be a diode junction of some sort in there too, so it isn't totally fukt.

I will buy a new MAF and whack it in, fingers crossed it will cure the problem even though no ECM codes are showing for it being faulty. If not then at least it will be impressive come sale time that all the sensors have been replaced with new ones in the sales spiel :lol:

[Effem]

I have also decided to buy an OBD II scanner as a way of taking some of the guesswork out of diagnosing these computer related faults. Only twenty quid off ebay so should pay for itself within a short space of time in petrol alone whizzing back and forth to the garage :eyebrows:

[Magna Audio]

I got one of those code readers to look at an engine man light on for emissions, even though the car runs fine and passes its emissions tests everytime with flying colours.
Great bit of kit for £20

[Effem]

:yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::yay::thumbsup:

[Ali Tait]

Sorted I take it? :D

[Effem]

Sorted I take it? :D

Yep, walloped the new MAF sensor in this morning and after a few heart stopping moments when the tickover see-sawed up and down as usual, it then went up to 1100 revs and rock steady, then a gentle fall down to around 850 and not wavered since when I took it out for a long spin. No check light and no pending codes either on the scanner.

Me happy bunny now.

Thanks chaps.

This of course flies in the face of all the internet "experts" wisdoms who claim they have always solved these issues with MAF cleaner alone. Have some of this :finger:

[archiesdad]

Champion.:carrot:

[Ali Tait]

Aye glad you got it sorted Frank.

[NRG]

A lesson in what happens if you don't change your air filter regularly. Glad its sorted!

[MikeMusic]

Good news Frank

By coincidence I was talking to my mechanic yesterday about forums. He said there are a lot of people who are completely wrong and told me of another of his customers who couldn't believe they were wrong - as it was on t'internet !
:lol:

[NRG]

Good news Frank

By coincidence I was talking to my mechanic yesterday about forums. He said there are a lot of people who are completely wrong and told me of another of his customers who couldn't believe they were wrong - as it was on t'internet !
:lol:


Could be said of Hi-Hi as well! :D

[MikeMusic]

Could be said of Hi-Hi as well! :D

Oh no never !

:)

[Effem]

Good news Frank

By coincidence I was talking to my mechanic yesterday about forums. He said there are a lot of people who are completely wrong and told me of another of his customers who couldn't believe they were wrong - as it was on t'internet !
:lol:

It is that lack of definitive answer to my problem that frustrated me so much. What these "experts" were saying repeatedly to problems exactly the same as mine were was to change this, that and the other until the fault goes away and one of them had the endless mantra of saying the cat is blocked, again and again to all queries :mental: Fine if you have bottomless pockets filled with cash but I don't and least of all taking it to a garage for them to do the same on my behalf and at my expense. Several said they have NEVER changed a MAF sensor, a good clean always put them right. By the way, it wasn't me that let the air cleaner get into such a filthy state.

Well the new MAF sensor has cured the poor idling and MIL coming on, although the real proof that it's fixed will be this afternoon when I take the car for it's MOT, as it failed last time for a lean running condition :hmm:

[walpurgis]

Good luck with the MOT Frank. I'm always uneasy before I take a car in, even if I know it's OK, I still worry whether they'll find problem.

[MikeMusic]

It is that lack of definitive answer to my problem that frustrated me so much. What these "experts" were saying repeatedly to problems exactly the same as mine were was to change this, that and the other until the fault goes away and one of them had the endless mantra of saying the cat is blocked, again and again to all queries :mental: Fine if you have bottomless pockets filled with cash but I don't and least of all taking it to a garage for them to do the same on my behalf and at my expense. Several said they have NEVER changed a MAF sensor, a good clean always put them right. By the way, it wasn't me that let the air cleaner get into such a filthy state.

Well the new MAF sensor has cured the poor idling and MIL coming on, although the real proof that it's fixed will be this afternoon when I take the car for it's MOT, as it failed last time for a lean running condition :hmm:

Hope it passes.
Did you know of the council run MOT stations that allegedly give passes more readily ?
As they don't do any work and don't make any money out of doing it

[Ali Tait]

Yes, each council will run an MOT station for their vehicles. By law, it has to offer these services to the public, and as you say, pass rates seem to be higher.