Problem solved - always trust your ears (backed up by a stylus pressure gauge)

[Oldpinkman]

Been having a bit of a problem following a trip to Arthur at Funk. Sent him 2 emails - very confused, to which he hasn't replied (he has a day job, as I ought to remember I should have too). But Arthur - FYI - I think I'm sorted

The punchline is - my problems were wrong tracking force. Bloody Rega RB300 calibration appears to be accurate to the nearest half-brick only. And don't talk to me about the anti-skate. Dialled tracking force of 1.5g is closer to 0.8!! Those who think I waffle too much can check out there. For those enjoying the long version...

AK announced he was swamped with work, and our original plans went out the window. I did a bit of listening to the acrylic and strata Techie platters while he dealt with customers, and i listened to a well known budget MC cartridge I hadnt heard before, which reinforced my caution about cheap MC cartridges. A test of nerve too since there was no cueing device on the arm, and with my monocular short-sighted vision I was a jibbering wreck by the end of it. (Didn't actually break anything though :))

So we had a quick look at the Integral to be stripped so I can get my promised very long term loan repaired, and he brandished an anni sub-chassis he has put aside for me, this time with a premotec motor fitted, quick play with the other toys (you guys have got to him - all this test equipment out on the benches that I hadn't seen before in a while!!!), borrowed the Integral again, and swapped the F5 for an FXR.

Only a proper one this time - as in a Rega GTi. These are not well suited to PT's due to the rigid arm cable, so in a bit of a flap, AK fitted me a special arm cable. Untested (it occurred to me half way home). Problem - ludicrously oversized foo rca plugs wouldn't fit through the slot on the PT - so temporary bodge routed them out through the hole in the baseplate. Out with the drill / router this weekend...

Arthur set up for me - but by eye, not ear. Actually I think he's got the VTA slightly arse-high, another job for the weekend, but not critical as it turns out. So - home late, but plonk it on the shelf, pinch pink cotton from Mrs S sewing basket (has to be pink cotton), and plonk on Katie M. All is not well. Halve the anti-skate - and some progress. Scary moment when I shut the lid to discover that the rega counterweight fouls it, and bounced the stylus accordingly - but lived to tell the tale (really hard remembering not to lower the lid after cueing though)

Ended up in a mini-row with Mrs S. Something was not right. First, when we should have been saying "where's the bass gone?" there was loads. More - I swear more - than with F5 same cartridge. But where had the treble gone? And why the graininess and strain on vocals? To shorten this a bit - the first answer was the power amp. Incredible - one for another post, but Mrs S on discovering "how I fixed it" commented "crap bloody amplifier". About my beloved Quad 405-2!!!! And lived to tell the tale. This restored the treble and improved everything to the point we sat and listened to music for a couple of hours instead of listening to and fiddling with kit. But still a bit coarse, a bit forward, and a bit shouty.

So I rummaged in the box and found my trusty Ortofon stylus guage and could NOT believe that this Rega with go-faster stripes** was tracking at 0.8 grams (maybe less if the ortofon guage is accurate).:doh: To get 1.4 grams I am past 2 grams on the dial. And now - my first time with FXR , Integral and the Technics 310MC cartridge I may have died and gone to heaven. (Before I had 2 from 3 - and the Goldring 1042 was pretty close to heaven). The difference? Well - that total precision of a good MC, and LOADS of the most incredible bass on good tracks. I reckon (ignoring small technical details like how to get an Integral power amp of my own) I am very very very nearly there now. The only other thing, after an afternoon of listening to a Techie (you know - that DJ 1200 thingamy), was the stability - not so much imaging, but almost a wow on sustained notes which hopefully operation "pimp PT" will address.

Maybe, just maybe interested in a new cartridge, but maybe not. I've spent 2 days researching whilst it was "wrong" and if Paul (Reffc) were any nearer I would have auditioned one of his Zyx by now. But at the right tracking force, balanced with the rest of the system, I am not sure the Technics can be bettered. If I can find a cartridge as smooth, and deep, and mellow and detailed as the Technics but with just a tiny weeny bit more sparkle on the top, then maybe I'd go for that. It's gonna have to be special though.
And the ESL 63's if I can get a room big enough, and persuade someone to put a proper protection circuit on the back of the Integral. But the Ventricals kick arse in this system and don't miss much on the Quads. I should have some 57's here to compare with before Christmas, but they can't stay in the room - its just too small.

But very very close. Dan (Ledzep) - if you are around this weekend and fancy a listen, let me know. Phwoar! :cool:

** Kidding Arthur - Its a great arm!;)

[Oldpinkman]

I know. I know. Pictures

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_0004_zpsd4376e9e.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_0004_zpsd4376e9e.jpg.html)

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_0005_zpsd3c33cf9.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_0005_zpsd3c33cf9.jpg.html)

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_0003_zps7742029c.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_0003_zps7742029c.jpg.html)

Apologies for the last one - I am a little wary of damaging this, so haven't been too precious about tidy cable runs

And astute followers of my every word may spot the tippex on the platter I referred to before!

Luverley! :cool:

[loo]

Looks like a very pleasurable weekend ahead Richard
Enjoy ;)
Paul

[Spectral Morn]

I know. I know. Pictures

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_0004_zpsd4376e9e.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_0004_zpsd4376e9e.jpg.html)

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_0005_zpsd3c33cf9.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_0005_zpsd3c33cf9.jpg.html)

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/DSC_0003_zps7742029c.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/DSC_0003_zps7742029c.jpg.html)

Apologies for the last one - I am a little wary of damaging this, so haven't been too precious about tidy cable runs

And astute followers of my every word may spot the tippex on the platter I referred to before!

Luverley! :cool:

Hi Richard

Get yourself one of these http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-2880-project-measure-it-digital-stylus-force-gauge.aspx as frankly those balance scales are very poor. The classic Shure http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shure-SFG-2-Stylus-Tracking-Force/dp/B008QM2IS6 is not too bad but a digital one is best imho.

Regards Neil

[Gordon Steadman]

So I rummaged in the box and found my trusty Ortofon stylus guage and could NOT believe that this Rega with go-faster stripes** was tracking at 0.8 grams (maybe less if the ortofon guage is accurate).:doh: To get 1.4 grams I am past 2 grams on the dial.

I have always ignored the setting on the Rega arm, kept the wind up spring at minimum and adjusted tracking force with the weight. Its an old problem apparently since I've had my RB300 for about twelve years and the shop that sold it to me said do it that way.

[loo]

I have always ignored the setting on the Rega arm, kept the wind up spring at minimum and adjusted tracking force with the weight. Its an old problem apparently since I've had my RB300 for about twelve years and the shop that sold it to me said do it that way.

Try setting the dial to 3 then set the correct force with the weight you may find it sounds better than setting it to zero as the spring is less compressed
Paul

[Oldpinkman]

Thanks. Very helpful. Good to know its not just me. I may try to get a more accurate gauge, but I am also happy with marcos ear technique. My problem is I was scarred when I got the goldring and thought I remembered the mission 774 was 0.5g per revolution of the counterweight. Tell em Geoff - its 0.2. So when I thought the goldring couldn't track at 2.5gm the poor thing was only at 1.0g! Now I know where I stand I can use my ears:)

[Stubies]

Hi Richard

Get yourself one of these http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-2880-project-measure-it-digital-stylus-force-gauge.aspx as frankly those balance scales are very poor. The classic Shure http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shure-SFG-2-Stylus-Tracking-Force/dp/B008QM2IS6 is not too bad but a digital one is best imho.

Regards Neil

This one looks the same as the Pro-ject gauge, but it is 1/3 the price....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-TURNTABLE-QUALITY-STYLUS-FORCE-TRACKING-PRESSURE-GAUGE-FREE-POST-UK-/350905052548?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51b3922d84

so would you trust it, or skip it?

[PaulStewart]

This one looks the same as the Pro-ject gauge, but it is 1/3 the price....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-TURNTABLE-QUALITY-STYLUS-FORCE-TRACKING-PRESSURE-GAUGE-FREE-POST-UK-/350905052548?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51b3922d84

so would you trust it, or skip it?

I have one of these from the same seller, I have tested it against a number of reference weights and it is bang on at a great price :) :)

[blake]

This one looks the same as the Pro-ject gauge, but it is 1/3 the price....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-TURNTABLE-QUALITY-STYLUS-FORCE-TRACKING-PRESSURE-GAUGE-FREE-POST-UK-/350905052548?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51b3922d84

so would you trust it, or skip it?

Actually not the same. The one you linked to measures to .01 grams, the Project measures to .001.

The higher resolution scale may indeed be higher quality; these scales are all essentially Canrong scales. There are generally more reports of the lower resolution scales having problems or crapping out but that may simply be because there are much more of them out there.

If you're content with the lower resolution, I'd buy from Deal Extreme and simply order two on the off chance one breaks down. You'll still be ahead of the game. You may need to purchase the calibration weight with the cheap one as well.

http://dx.com/p/digital-precision-scale-with-leather-case-5g-max-0-01g-resolution-16269

[Oldpinkman]

Fantastic. I'll get myself one from deal extreme. I think I'd need to go into the gemstone business to be worried about that degree of accuracy. For stylus force I just need something a bit closer than regas half brick accuracy to put me in the zone. It was sounding really good again last night.
I think the "clipping bursts" I had experienced and questioned were extreme mistracking as it just let go of the road:doh:

[Beobloke]

Bloody Rega RB300 calibration appears to be accurate to the nearest half-brick only.

Arfur will be able to confirm this or tell me I'm talking guff (wouldn't be the first time...) but I suspect what you're experiencing here is as a result of the change in mass of the arm tube due to the FXR-ing of the arm. Rega will most likely have calibrated the spring/scale to the original armtube's mass.

[YNWaN]

So, Richard, if I understand you correctly, you have misinterpreted severe mistracking as amplifier clipping? If that is the case, I wouldn't trust your ears too much...(as this threads title suggests).

[Oldpinkman]

So, Richard, if I understand you correctly, you have misinterpreted severe mistracking as amplifier clipping? If that is the case, I wouldn't trust your ears too much...(as this threads title suggests).

Probably right on the first score - without checking with himself it has the ring of truth. Jury's out on the 2nd one. Whilst generally not happy (but only slightly) I had a couple of bursts of heavy distortion best described as like a valve amplifier playing while switching on, and on records where I had no reason to suppose record damage was the problem - which didn't last long enough for me to investigate them. (The classic intermittent fault problem - hard to test anything when its not faulting). Having seen Arthur at high speed with tiny delicate wires and a soldering iron - and realising we hadn't tested, and having had a previous arm with an earth fault, and deluding myself the tracking force was ok , my description of the sound was "extreme clipping"

I was about to say it wouldn't have taken me long to conclude tracking force - and then realised it didn't take me long. It's that classic diversionary thing - you believe that something is true (the tracking force was correct - because I checked the settings on the arm - and they started with a setting Arthur had set up) so you assume the fault has to be something else. All good clean fun.

And of course if it comes back ... :)

[Stratmangler]

The Shure gauge is good and easy to use.
Doesn't need batteries either.

The tail does look to be up a touch on the piccies you've posted.

[Macca]

I'm a bit shocked that you play your records with the lid still on the turntable. Get rid of it!

[Stratmangler]

I'm a bit shocked that you play your records with the lid still on the turntable. Get rid of it!

+1

[Oldpinkman]

I'm a bit shocked that you play your records with the lid still on the turntable. Get rid of it!

Is that because of the static lift myth? I subscribe to the music is made by creating waves in air which in addition to wobbling eardrums wobble anything they encounter like a record being played myth. I suspect neither myth matters very much. I can promise you in 25 years plus of shutting the lid that I get no tracking or other distortion issues of any sort, and have yet to see the arm rise up from the record and hover mysteriously. And check out the mains cables I use.

However, the original conundrum that got me doodling on this thread has returned. Which is "WTF is going on with these arms?". At this rate, at the very least, you could persuade me of the onset of premature senility, but after a glass of wine I suspect you could convince me of alien abductions and fairies holding meetings on the toadstools Sue found in the garden. Bit more listening needed I feel Watson.

But having made a tit of myself already, has anybody else noted quite large changes in sonic character from quite small changes in tracking pressure with cartridges? This "bass" issue is making me wonder what Sue has been putting in my tea. Either that or the pritt sticks I use are of an altogether more potent strain than formerly. Very odd. :mental:

The short version is that we expected F5 to FXR to mean "beautiful but where's the bass"? First it was "Wow what bass - why so coarse"? At (ortofon balance) 1.4g tracking we got "ah bisto" but Mrs S asked whether I was sure the bass was still there. After a typical male arogant rude reply, I checked secretly in private, and blow me she was right. Narrower sound stage too - but great cymbals. Provisional listen at (ortofon balance) 1.25 gm seems to offer the best of all worlds, until I get another "fart" of the "tube warm-up" / "severe clipping" variety.

Once I get back from the psychiatric ward I'll let you know. :scratch:

[YNWaN]

Yeah, they also wobble thin unsupported areas like the surface of the lid and that is connected to the deck. I believe the 1200 lid is injection moulded styrene.

[Gordon Steadman]

I now have a lid on my TT for the first time in about twenty years.

As it was there, I used it and am totally unable to hear any difference. This with the sound turned right up with the speakers or with headphones.

I would, naturally, hate to suggest that this is another of those jolly fun hi-fi urban myths:ner:

[Oldpinkman]

Yeah, they also wobble thin unsupported areas like the surface of the lid and that is connected to the deck. I believe the 1200 lid is injection moulded styrene.

Ah but my deck is a pt and its plinth is isolated from the business parts by springs. But i'm probably with Gordon on this one :)

[YNWaN]

Yes, in that case, a different matter.

[Spectral Morn]

I now have a lid on my TT for the first time in about twenty years.

As it was there, I used it and am totally unable to hear any difference. This with the sound turned right up with the speakers or with headphones.

I would, naturally, hate to suggest that this is another of those jolly fun hi-fi urban myths:ner:

I think much depends on the TT and its position in the room relative to the speakers as to how much of an affect using a lid or cover has on the sound. However regardless, some who have pets or children may have no choice but to use the lid.


Regards Neil

[Oldpinkman]

I'm not sure how much longer my nerve is going to last, before I bottle it and put the ugly flat chord speaker cables back in whilst I have Arthurs loan Integral. The cables Paul made me have spades one end, bananas the other (the chords are bananas both ends). This enabled me to use them with the Arcam. However, the spades swiveled round when I moved the speakers and shorted. Fortunately the Quad just warmed up a bit (and went temporarily silent on one channel). The integral would go bang. Might be a wise precaution. Stonking amp.

Tracking weight issue is starting to return to normality. I was convinced Trillion had been fiddling with the infinite improbability drive before . I am trying the force set to 3 grams, balance the arm, set tracking weight with the counterweight method. Slight concern is at 3gm force balanced no antiskate, the arm drifts to the outside of the record (ie there is some antiskate even though it says zero). I have reduced the tracking force (ortofon guage to 1.1 grams). Amazingly this significantly increases the bass AND widens the soundstage. This was a lucky find due to the excessive under weight balls up at the start of this thread. Previously the move from F5 to FXR produced this surreal ethereal beauty for most of the sound, but you lost the bass. It was there - "tight" and "tuneful" but very light. Now, with the Technics cartridge, reducing the tracking force significantly (completely??) reduces the lost bass effect.

Leaving me to enjoy the music. And reflect just how much information has been hiding on those black vinyl discs all these years. Just played Private Investigations - Dire Straights. The voice that comes in very faintly in the second half sounded like the dog had sneaked into the hall, so convincingly I got up to look. And then played it again to confirm. It was this incredible realism I think my dad was referring to when he talked about REALLY expecting to see the instruments on the Bach when he opened his eyes.

Lovin' it. Until the next cock-up :cool:

[synsei]

It's such a joy when everything is set up just so, isn't it Richard. On the track Country Honk from the Stones album Let It Bleed a car horn sounds someways into the track. I know it's there and yet whenever I play this track I find myself getting up to check for a car outside, such is the quality of the recording :lol:

[Oldpinkman]

It's such a joy when everything is set up just so, isn't it Richard. On the track Country Honk from the Stones album Let It Bleed a car horn sounds someways into the track. I know it's there and yet whenever I play this track I find myself getting up to check for a car outside, such is the quality of the recording :lol:

Nice comment. Dodgy avatar. Any chance of sandi thom??;)

[FunkArt]

Arfur will be able to confirm this or tell me I'm talking guff (wouldn't be the first time...) but I suspect what you're experiencing here is as a result of the change in mass of the arm tube due to the FXR-ing of the arm. Rega will most likely have calibrated the spring/scale to the original armtube's mass.

Adam,
From one guffer to another, that notwithstanding, sorry Adam but arm tube mass has been compensated by the counterweight. As the force is applied by a spring i.e. is a torsion, the calibration for the force will be dictated solely by the distance. As FXR is the same effective length, we are now down to a poor spring - sorry Richard.
Well, you have already experienced one of my other hack demo units with no cue mechanism, so you should be getting used to this familiarity. You only have yourself to blame and that's my final word on it! (:ner:)

Seriously, Rega calibration is generally OK but occasionally you do get a "creative" one, so apologies that you've had heart failure.

As Richard has already mentioned, we have got rather over-busy and as this is going to go on for some time, you can all breathe a long sigh as posts will be few and far between.

Arthur

[Oldpinkman]

sorry Richard.
Well, you have already experienced one of my other hack demo units
Arthur

Oh. You're alive then. :)

[Oldpinkman]

There is a lot of hyperbole. Senile memory plays a lot of tricks. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. But I reckon this arm cartridge combination is the best i've had on a pink triangle. Just playing record after record. Integral isn't bad either :cool:

[YNWaN]

Although the spring conceptually applies a force to one side relative to the other, in a proportional sense it actually achieves this by applying a separate force (it does not literally apply transference of mass) that is proportional to the whole but not to the mass either side of the fulcrum. Therefore, although applied force may be proportionally linear for one mass relative to another, it will not be if the masses on either side alter - this would only be true if the spring altered strength relative to the altered masses it was balancing/acting against.

[The Grand Wazoo]

That's good to know.
I may have it tattooed in mirror image on my forehead!

[Barry]

Although the spring conceptually applies a force to one side relative to the other, in a proportional sense it actually achieves this by applying a separate force (it does not literally apply transference of mass) that is proportional to the whole but not to the mass either side of the fulcrum. Therefore, although applied force may be proportionally linear for one mass relative to another, it will not be if the masses on either side alter - this would only be true if the spring altered strength relative to the altered masses it was balancing/acting against.

I don't understand any of the above!

[Oldpinkman]

I don't understand any of the above!

Oh good. I'm glad it wasn't just me. :scratch: however, if it was trying to say that you would need to pull harder on a high mass seesaw arm that was balanced perfectly to make it squash a woopee cushion hard enough to fart than you would have to pull on a low mass seesaw arm that was balanced perfectly to squash a woopee cushion the same amount, it doesn't ring true.

[Gordon Steadman]

Oh gawd, I wish you lot would just listen to some music:eek:

[Oldpinkman]

Oh gawd, I wish you lot would just listen to some music:eek:

I am. Lots and lots. :) I thought I mentioned that a couple of posts back.

You're quite right - regardless of woopee cushions and physics, without a precise reading from my digital scales which haven't arrived yet, based on 1.1 grams according to the Ortofon seesaw

this is making quite the best music I have ever heard from a record player in my house. The biggest system limitation at the moment is the neighbours and my reluctance to piss them off too badly, cos he's a big b****d and we have had a couple of full and frank discussions in the past.

I can envisage further refinement in the future (I hope) when Pip 2 allows me a passive option, and the repaired Integral power amp will let me bypass it's preamp stage, but no tearing hurry. Oh - and of course those silly radiators to try instead of speakers...:stalks:

[Gordon Steadman]

Oh - and of course those silly radiators to try instead of speakers...:stalks:
Mine are on winter retirement:eek: As we are still awaiting the weather to sort itself out so the roofman can do our upstairs lounge, we are using Ronnie's 'sewing' room downstairs for the music. This also has the bike machine and weights in it so I can listen whilst exercising.

Sadly, that room has an outside wall that has been partly covered with concrete and gets a bit damp in the winter. I don't like to leave the Quads near that so its 'ordinary' speakers for the winter. Roll on the spring.

[YNWaN]

Oh good. I'm glad it wasn't just me. :scratch: however, if it was trying to say that you would need to pull harder on a high mass seesaw arm that was balanced perfectly to make it squash a woopee cushion hard enough to fart than you would have to pull on a low mass seesaw arm that was balanced perfectly to squash a woopee cushion the same amount, it doesn't ring true.

Well it wasn't. But as you don't understand (by your own admission) the post you are commenting on it isn't surprising that your synopsis isn't accurate.

On the other hand, I don't attempt to understand the intricacies of my tax returns either.

[AlexM]

I bought this stylus tracking force gauge from the 'bay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170762049476?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

£24.73 + £8.65 shipping, and supposedly accurate to 0.002 grams (yeah, right!), so it's ten times better than those others shown :)

Don't make the mistake of trying to use digital scales with a metal load plate as I did - that was nearly the end of my Benz Micro ACE-M!. I also had a similar problem with the Shure balance gauge - I would have thought it would have been made from stainless steel, aluminium or some other non-ferrous metal, but no...

Regards,
Alex

P.s. this ebay seller also appears to have an eclectic set of interests - they are also auctioning pink carbon fibre violin bows and tatooists accessories.. very rock and roll!
p.p.s. I noticed that one of the pictures of the gauge in use seems to feature a funk-style FXR-type headshell fixing

[Reffc]

Richard

silly question, but before dialling in the Rega VTF, did you remember (once cart fitted) to set VTF dial at zero, then adjust stub mounted weight until you got the balance point? You can't set VTF using the gauge unless this is done first. This is the single most common mistake most make when setting vtf on Rega arms, especially when fitting a new cartridge. I'm sure you probably did, but thought it worth mentioning...you never know!

[Oldpinkman]

Richard

silly question, but before dialling in the Rega VTF, did you remember (once cart fitted) to set VTF dial at zero, then adjust stub mounted weight until you got the balance point? You can't set VTF using the gauge unless this is done first. This is the single most common mistake most make when setting vtf on Rega arms, especially when fitting a new cartridge. I'm sure you probably did, but thought it worth mentioning...you never know!
Actually you may be doing me too much credit. It is not impossible that the counterweight shifted in transit. I have suitable digital scales on the way out of interest but I suspect the ortofon seesaw is less inacurate than some would like. Either way it is clearly on the button atm. Simply staggering detail and soundstage. :)

[YNWaN]

So you don't pretend to know one end of an arm from the other but you are happy to disparage the remarks of those that do - for an accountant you don't half present yourself as a marketing man!

[PaulStewart]

So you don't pretend to know one end of an arm from the other but you are happy to disparage the remarks of those that do - for an accountant you don't half present yourself as a marketing man!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Oldpinkman]

So you don't pretend to know one end of an arm from the other but you are happy to disparage the remarks of those that do - for an accountant you don't half present yourself as a marketing man!

Along with barry I noted that we are unable to understand your comment. I hazarded an interpretation in language which I could havemade sense of. You neither clarified the point for barry nor offerered a correct interpretation for me but made a defensive patronising comment. As I noted, whatever your point might have been, regardless that its purpose seems something other than to offer usable help or advice, it was irrelevant, since the device is working just fine, allowing me to enjoy music from a record player better than i ever have before. As gordon points out - that is what really matters.

Thank you for taking the time to comment on my thread, and I am sorry I was unable to understand your cleverness.

[Oldpinkman]

Although the spring conceptually applies a force to one side relative to the other, in a proportional sense it actually achieves this by applying a separate force (it does not literally apply transference of mass) that is proportional to the whole but not to the mass either side of the fulcrum. Therefore, although applied force may be proportionally linear for one mass relative to another, it will not be if the masses on either side alter - this would only be true if the spring altered strength relative to the altered masses it was balancing/acting against.

OK Mark

Since this obviously matters to you a lot - I checked with Arthur, who in turn checked with a spring manufacturer. You are wrong. My seesaw analogy was correct. The only relevant forces in a balanced fulcrum are the extension of the spring and the distance from the fulcrum. The mass of the balanced arm is irrelevant in all cases. A force is a force.

It was suggested I might use a less provocative analogy related to hifi. If you take an arm which is balanced and apply a 2 gram weight 10 inches from the fulcrum, at that point there will be a down force of 2 grams. If you attach a spring which balances that weight back (so the arm is again level) that spring will extend by a fixed amount. The force will always be 2 grams. The extension of the spring will always be the same. It doesn't matter whether the balanced arm is made of lead or balsa wood, if it is first balanced and a 2 gram weight attached at 10 inches the down force at that point will always be 2 grams. And the extension of the spring required to balance it will always be the same length. The same force. The issues relevant are distance from fulcrum and tension of spring. Mass of the balanced tube is not relevant. Can I make it any clearer for you? If I did tax returns like that I would soon be unable to get PI cover :)

But like I said. It doesn't matter that you were wrong. What matters is that the quite exceptional arm which has the spring we were discussing, is sounding magnificent with the Technics cartridge I picked up from Arizona, at whatever force is being applied, and I am enjoying listening to music on it. I got lucky I guess. :cool:

[Marco]

Guys, I don't like the tone of some of the remarks here. Let's drop the sarcastic/patronising element in your responses and remember that this is a friendly forum, where it is a prerequisite that we treat each other with due respect at all times.

Therefore, let's ensure for the remainder of the discussion, that the ball is played and not the man, as it were. Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

[Beobloke]

It is not impossible that the counterweight shifted in transit.

Never leave a counterweight on in transit -bad things will happen!


this is a friendly forum, where it is a prerequisite that we treat each other with due respect at all times.



Quite right. Although I am reminded of a quote from Naked Gun -

"I'm sure that we can handle this situation maturely, just like the responsible adults that we are. Isn't that right, Mr... Poopy Pants?"

:D

[Marco]

:lolsign:

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Never leave a counterweight on in transit -bad things will happen!


:D

I know. In my youff I travelled up and down to uni with an arm mounted and counterweight attached (mind it was only a Linn LVV) and never gave it a second thought. Last time I moved the prototype FXR Arthur removed the counterweight to prevent bearing damage. This time we packed it with foam, because I wanted to transport his set-up. It may have shifted, and I guess , with the benefit of hindsight, it was VTA (which I think he got wrong) and cartridge protractor stuff, which I wanted him to do, not tracking force, and they wouldn't have been affected by removing the counterweight. I should have rezeroed and balanced and set the force to his setting.

We'll never know now! The happy news is it is sounding sooooo good :)

[Oldpinkman]

Well the new toy has arrived. Mr K was typically scathing about digital scales when I visited last week (he has several sets) pointing out that they are inconsistent. He weighed a headshell cueing arm 4 times and got 4 different weights. I was accordingly fairly dubious of the chinese scales. However, for all they weigh 500g test weight 500g, but then report -0.14 g when you remove it, if you reset the Tare a few times, it eventually settles to about +or-0.05g and surely that is accurate enough for a cartridge.

AK and I also discussed the effect of tracking force on cartridge sound (particularly in the context of the Technics cartridges) and agreed it was important to get it right, especially trying to minimise the "soft treble" of these cartridges. We now both have a U205 as well as an epc310 MC and both have new stylus assemblies on order, and both love the cartridges but...

Anyway - my EPC310 was I believed set at 1.1g. Tracking force spec is 1.0-1.5, recommended 1.25. I repeat - by ear, it was set at what by ortofon balance I believed to be a lighter than recommended 1.1g. Best I could measure it with my new toy it was 1.27g. Blow me! :cool: