PDA

View Full Version : Now we know...



Filterlab
04-03-2008, 12:28
Why Musical Fidelity can slash their prices so low:

Somehow I think not! (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-X-POWER-AMPLIFIER-KIT-BASED-ON-MUSICAL-FIDELITY-A1_W0QQitemZ350031668705QQihZ022QQcategoryZ14973QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Prince of Darkness
04-03-2008, 12:33
If it's based on the A1, then anyone building should invest in big heatsinks. The MF's ran very hot and had a poor reliability record as a result.

Filterlab
04-03-2008, 12:37
Yeah, somehow I don't think it's quite the same circuit.

greenhomeelectronics
04-03-2008, 13:04
In my garage I have a spare cylinder head for a 3.2 litre Jaguar straight 6. I think it would make a perfect heatsink for an A1. Might need a 35 horsepower fan as well - just to be on the safe side :-) I have never known an amp run so hot, if satan had an amp it would have to be the A1. It would save him a fortune on his gas bills :-)

Filterlab
04-03-2008, 15:06
They do run exceptionally warm, most people think they're a Class A design you know.

:lol: :lolsign: :lol: :lolsign: :lol: :lolsign: :lol: :lolsign:

Prince of Darkness
04-03-2008, 15:20
Here's a picture of an A1 power section for comparison.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e138/renforth/a1_poweramp.jpg

Vinyl Grinder
04-03-2008, 16:17
Why Musical Fidelity can slash their prices so low:

Somehow I think not! (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-X-POWER-AMPLIFIER-KIT-BASED-ON-MUSICAL-FIDELITY-A1_W0QQitemZ350031668705QQihZ022QQcategoryZ14973QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)


Starange u mention him as i bought one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NE5532-HI-FI-STEREO-TONE-CONTROL-AMPLIFIER_W0QQitemZ110214047115QQihZ001QQcategoryZ 12050QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

I think those pots will hit the rubbish bin first of all..

Vinyl Grinder
04-03-2008, 16:20
They do run exceptionally warm, most people think they're a Class A design you know.

:lol: :lolsign: :lol: :lolsign: :lol: :lolsign: :lol: :lolsign:


The shitty 'A1' i had, all the paint blistered off the top was slightly bowed aswell...I think someone must have left it on doing nothing for some time.

WikiBoy
04-03-2008, 16:21
Here's a picture of an A1 power section for comparison.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e138/renforth/a1_poweramp.jpg

You should never put standard electrolytics so close to such a high intensity heat source. The tantalums are fine but the electrolytics will dry out over a couple of years and might explode. There are electrolytics designed (especially in computer applications) to take this level of heat but they are about four times more expensive.

Curiously because it is a highly biased class AB (like the Krell and some others who call themselves class A) it will run cooler flat out than at half volume or at idle (quiescent). A *real* transistor class A is different and is represented in the UK by Sugden. Of course you get valve class A's like the Puresound A30 and they don't have these problems or design constraints as a valve is basically a voltage amplifiers where as those output trannies in the picture are configurated as current amplifiers and current = heat.

WikiBoy
04-03-2008, 16:33
You should never put standard electrolytics so close to such a high intensity heat source. The tantalums are fine but the electrolytics will dry out over a couple of years and might explode. There are electrolytics designed (especially in computer applications) to take this level of heat but they are about four times more expensive.

Curiously because it is a highly biased class AB (like the Krell and some others who call themselves class A) it will run cooler flat out than at half volume or at idle (quiescent). A *real* transistor class A is different and is represented in the UK by Sugden. Of course you get valve class A's like the Puresound A30 and they don't have these problems or design constraints as a valve is basically a voltage amplifiers where as those output trannies in the picture are configurated as current amplifiers and current = heat.

(Addenda) If I remember rightly the circuit was designed by Tim P of EAR fame and he always called it class AB, it was just the marketing dept of MF that called it class A. He also designed it *with* the more expensive caps ;)

Vinyl Grinder
04-03-2008, 16:34
You should never put standard electrolytics so close to such a high intensity heat source. The tantalums are fine but the electrolytics will dry out over a couple of years and might explode. There are electrolytics designed (especially in computer applications) to take this level of heat but they are about four times more expensive.



Pha! shitty cheap electrolytics..Why not use Elna 'Silmics'/ 'Cerafines' or even Rubycon 'Blackgates' all depending on applications.

Vinyl Grinder
04-03-2008, 16:45
(Addenda) If I remember rightly the circuit was designed by Tim P of EAR fame and he always called it class AB, it was just the marketing dept of MF that called it class A. He also designed it *with* the more expensive caps ;)

Yes it was & is only running in class 'A' upto a certain wattage then reverts to 'AB'...MF never claimed it a pure class 'A' amp.I remember reviews of this amp saying it will easily drive the most difficult of speakers.Hated mine, i think the 'M50's were monoblock versions with bigger power supplies.

greenhomeelectronics
04-03-2008, 16:53
Didn't they used to say it was "heavily biased towards class a"? Or was that somebody else. That's right about the elecrolytics though, most are rated at 85 degrees but any near heat should be 105 degree rated.
Dave.

WikiBoy
04-03-2008, 17:00
Yes it was & is only running in class 'A' upto a certain wattage then reverts to 'AB'...MF never claimed it a pure class 'A' amp.I remember reviews of this amp saying it will easily drive the most difficult of speakers.Hated mine, i think the 'M50's were monoblock versions with bigger power supplies.

wrong! :lolsign:

It is neither class A or B, all class AB means is that it is both, for some of its voltage bandwidth it runs in A and for some it runs in B. It starts in A and you set the quiescent current to bias the circuit. High quiescent current means it stay in Class A longer, in the case of the MF A1 up to about 15w after that it is *pure* :) class B. Originally the AB circuit design was configured to get over the low level switching characteristics of a class B circuit which induces odd harmonic distortion. Then some bright marketing spark :eyebrows: got the idea of creating a poor mans class A amplifier by increasing the bias. But it ain't the real thing. But it is just one aspect of design and it is ony because of the public perception of terms that the marketing men have their day and earn their oats. Well A must be better than AB or B mustn't it!! I mean it is in our language, even from school "getting an A", well that is what marketing is for :mental:

Vinyl Grinder
04-03-2008, 17:25
wrong! :lolsign:

It is neither class A or B, all class AB means is that it is both, for some of its voltage bandwidth it runs in A and for some it runs in B. It starts in A and you set the quiescent current to bias the circuit. High quiescent current means it stay in Class A longer, in the case of the MF A1 up to about 15w after that it is *pure* :) class B. Originally the AB circuit design was configured to get over the low level switching characteristics of a class B circuit which induces odd harmonic distortion. Then some bright marketing spark :eyebrows: got the idea of creating a poor mans class A amplifier by increasing the bias. But it ain't the real thing. But it is just one aspect of design and it is ony because of the public perception of terms that the marketing men have their day and earn their oats. Well A must be better than AB or B mustn't it!! I mean it is in our language, even from school "getting an A", well that is what marketing is for :mental:


It is a class AB design, the quiescent current is set high enough to ensure class 'A' upto a certain wattage which is around 8 watt.

spendorman
04-03-2008, 17:58
The high voltage capacitors I bought from him last year were fine and terrific value.

That pre amp looks brilliant, certainly for the money. Are you going to get a power amp boards from him?

If you do, I dont suppose it will be the NAD!!

This guy certainly has some interesting stuff very cheap. He now has assembled copy Quad 405 boards. Not sure what op amps are in them though. I bet the boards will be OK though.



Starange u mention him as i bought one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NE5532-HI-FI-STEREO-TONE-CONTROL-AMPLIFIER_W0QQitemZ110214047115QQihZ001QQcategoryZ 12050QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

I think those pots will hit the rubbish bin first of all..

WikiBoy
04-03-2008, 22:34
It is a class AB design, the quiescent current is set high enough to ensure class 'A' upto a certain wattage which is around 8 watt.

You said it was class A and then became class AB, I said you were wrong. Are you saying you are right? If so please explain how an AB works as an entity and what is working in AB, as I think you have discovered something new in the world of elctronics, and I am always open to learn.

Vinyl Grinder
04-03-2008, 22:57
You said it was class A and then became class AB, I said you were wrong. Are you saying you are right? If so please explain how an AB works as an entity and what is working in AB, as I think you have discovered something new in the world of elctronics, and I am always open to learn.

Richard:
The 'A1' is around a 20 watter,it runs class 'A' up to around 8watt/8 Ohm, after that it runs into class 'A/B'..You said that ''all class AB means is that it is both'', no it's not..Class 'A' runs at 100% input, Class 'B' 50% input, 'A'/'B' runs more than 50%, less than 100% so it's neither 'A' or 'B', compromise if you like...

WikiBoy
05-03-2008, 00:29
Richard:
The 'A1' is around a 20 watter,it runs class 'A' up to around 8watt/8 Ohm, after that it runs into class 'A/B'..You said that ''all class AB means is that it is both'', no it's not..Class 'A' runs at 100% input, Class 'B' 50% input, 'A'/'B' runs more than 50%, less than 100% so it's neither 'A' or 'B', compromise if you like...

Complete nonsense and lack of knowledge in how an amplifier works. There is no such thing as working in AB, it simply doesn't exist.

A little lesson, which may help.

First there was class A, simply called that because it was the first amplifier circuit designed. Then there was class B, simply called that because it was the second type of amplifier circuit designed. Then there was class C - D - E and F, there may even be more. No one designed a class AB as such it is a misnomer it does not exist, it is A sometimes B others, an amplifier *cannot* work in class AB.

Class AB is a compromise. It is normally an amp that is only biased to make a class B amp work up to about a watt or less in double ended class A in order to get the output transistors over the non linear part of their operation i.e. the point where the signal is switched between the two devices (or more if totem poled). The problem occures because transistors have a switch on resistance which gives a time lag between devices and creates distortion. This happens when the signal passes OV or earth ref. By biasing the transistor to work in parallel class A for a few milliwatts you get over that portion of the transistors work where it is non linear. You do this by setting a quiescent (constant) current across the transistor. That is a class AB, it is A until it switches to being B it is never in your fantasy non existing AB mode. All the MF A1 is is a class B amplifier design biased to stay in double ended class A until in theory 15w according to Tim, but maybe they lessened it to account for early failures of the product. Tim de P took the concept further at EAR by producing a single ended transistor class A amplifier, which was very clever and a bit of a bloody miracle it ever worked at all. I never heard it but a few that did said it had much in common (but not the same) with things like the single ended 300B valve amps.

There endeth the lesson, no charge, everything else refered to about amplifier class is marketing bullshit. Professional marketers love it, their oats depend on it, forum amateur marketers thrive on it, their egos depend on it.

PS another marketing BS is that class D means it is digital, 'fraid not it just means it is 4th in line in development timescale. It is a high speed switching amp.

Vinyl Grinder
05-03-2008, 00:49
Complete nonsense and lack of knowledge in how an amplifier works. There is no such thing as working in AB, it simply doesn't exist.

A little lesson, which may help.

First there was class A, simply called that because it was the first amplifier circuit designed. Then there was class B, simply called that because it was the second type of amplifier circuit designed. Then there was class C - D - E and F, there may even be more. No one designed a class AB as such it is a misnomer it does not exist, it is A sometimes B others, an amplifier *cannot* work in class AB.

Class AB is a compromise. It is normally an amp that is only biased to make a class B amp work up to about a watt or less in double ended class A in order to get the output transistors over the non linear part of their operation i.e. the point where the signal is switched between the two devices (or more if totem poled). The problem occures because transistors have a switch on resistance which gives a time lag between devices and creates distortion. This happens when the signal passes OV or earth ref. By biasing the transistor to work in parallel class A for a few milliwatts you get over that portion of the transistors work where it is non linear. You do this by setting a quiescent (constant) current across the transistor. That is a class AB, it is A until it switches to being B it is never in your fantasy non existing AB mode. All the MF A1 is is a class B amplifier design biased to stay in double ended class A until in theory 15w according to Tim, but maybe they lessened it to account for early failures of the product. Tim de P took the concept further at EAR by producing a single ended transistor class A amplifier, which was very clever and a bit of a bloody miracle it ever worked at all. I never heard it but a few that did said it had much in common (but not the same) with things like the single ended 300B valve amps.

There endeth the lesson, no charge, everything else refered to about amplifier class is marketing bullshit. Professional marketers love it, their oats depend on it, forum amateur marketers thrive on it, their egos depend on it.

PS another marketing BS is that class D means it is digital, 'fraid not it just means it is 4th in line in development timescale. It is a high speed switching amp.


Richard wtf are you contradicting most everything ive said. I have said the current has been set high enough to allow it to work in class 'A' .The amp is a CLASS AB design, i don't care what you claim it is.If you wanna argue it furthur i will encourgae an 'A1 specialist to come on here & give it how it is.

WikiBoy
05-03-2008, 01:06
Richard wtf are you contradicting most everything ive said. I have said the current has been set high enough to allow it to work in class 'A' .The amp is a CLASS AB design, i don't care what you claim it is.If you wanna argue it furthur i will encourgae an 'A1 specialist to come on here & give it how it is.

You are talking out of your hat with complete lack of knowledge. A class AB design *IS* a class B design biased to keep both transistors switched on at the same time (class A) for a few milliwatts. It is a misnomer, it should have been called class A and B, that would have made more sense. Class is not a design it is an operational characteristic, you can have many designs of class A and many designs of class B that is why amplifiers are different, BUT you can only have a limited number of operational modes and if you invent a new one then you take the next letter available in the alphabet. If AB was a new operational mode then it would have had a new alphabet letter, which at that time (mid 60's) would probably have been D or E. It is NOT a new operating mode, it is a sometimes A sometimes B mode.

It really takes an extrordinary ego to argue a subject you have little knowledge in and cannot admit the false nature of.

Vinyl Grinder
05-03-2008, 01:19
It really takes an extrordinary ego to argue a subject you have little knowledge in and cannot admit the false nature of.

You know nothing of me.You have a great way of turning things around to sort yourself, i'll give you that, infact if i didn't know any better i'd think you were some other guy on here we all know.I've asked a friend to come on & tell YOU what the 'A1' is.

Class 'AB' amplifier is a class 'B' amplifier which has a small amount of "bias" current flowing through the output transistors at all times.


A/B

greenhomeelectronics
05-03-2008, 08:37
Richard, your bit about taking the next letter does not make sense - are you seriously saying that class c amplification came along after a and b? Not when I went to college it didn't. Wot about Technics' class H then? Have we hit a rift in the time / space continuum :-)




I'll get me coat..........

Filterlab
05-03-2008, 08:45
And then there's Class N which is based on the reduction of time-average dissipation in transistor power instead of state-of-the-art reduction of instantaneous dissipated power. This becomes possible due the influence of capacitance currents that produce a negative collector current swing during a part of AC-period. In this case, along with an always-positive collector-emitter voltage, the instant dissipated power also is negative.

:)

Marco
05-03-2008, 08:51
I totally agree with that, *BUT* only on a Wednesday.

Marco.

Filterlab
05-03-2008, 09:34
And a Sunday morning. ;)

WikiBoy
05-03-2008, 09:39
You know nothing of me.You have a great way of turning things around to sort yourself, i'll give you that, infact if i didn't know any better i'd think you were some other guy on here we all know.I've asked a friend to come on & tell YOU what the 'A1' is.

Class 'AB' amplifier is a class 'B' amplifier which has a small amount of "bias" current flowing through the output transistors at all times.


A/B

So now all of a sudden you are agreeing with me. So now you accept that this following statement of yours is wrong, as I said - "it runs class 'A' up to around 8watt/8 Ohm, after that it runs into class 'A/B'".

Thats good, job done. That is all I wanted - to correct ignorance and misinformation.

spendorman
05-03-2008, 09:47
This is from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier

There is much more there in detail. I will have a look at my amplifier design books what they say about classes.

"I look down on him because he is lower Class" From the Two Ronnies!

--------------------------

Class A
100% of the input signal is used (conduction angle Θ = 360° or 2π). Where efficiency is not a consideration, most small signal linear amplifiers are designed as Class A, which means that the output devices are always in the conduction region. Class A amplifiers are typically more linear and less complex than other types, but are very inefficient. This type of amplifier is most commonly used in small-signal stages or for low-power applications (such as driving headphones).

Class B
50% of the input signal is used (Θ = 180° or π). In Class B, there are two output devices (or sets of output devices), each of which conducts alternately for exactly 180 deg (or half cycle) of the input signal.

Class AB
More than 50% but less than 100% is used. (181° to 359°, π < Θ < 2π). Class AB amplifiers are a compromise between Class A and B, which improves small signal output linearity; conduction angles vary from 180 degrees upwards, selected by the amplifier designer. Usually found in low frequency amplifiers (such as audio and hi-fi) owing to their relatively high efficiency, or other designs where both linearity and efficiency are important (cell phones, cell towers, TV transmitters).

* Class AB1 applies to tube or transistor amplifiers in class AB where the grid or base is more negatively biased than it is in class A.

* Class AB2 applies to tube or transistor amplifiers in class AB where the grid or base is often more negatively biased than in AB1, and the input signal is often larger. When the drive is high enough to make the grid or the base more positive, the grid or base current will increase. It is possible depending on the level of the signal input for the amplifier to move from class AB1 to AB2.

Class C
Less than 50% is used (0° to 179°, Θ < π). Popular for high power RF amplifiers, Class C is defined by conduction for less than 180° of the input signal. Linearity is not good, but this is of no significance for single frequency power amplifiers. The signal is restored to near sinusoidal shape by a tuned circuit, and efficiency is much higher than A, AB, or B classes of amplification.

Class D
Main article: Switching amplifier
These use switching to achieve a very high power efficiency (more than 90% in modern designs). By allowing each output device to be either fully on or off, losses are minimized. A simple approach such as pulse-width modulation is sometimes still used; however, high-performance switching amplifiers use digital techniques, such as sigma-delta modulation, to achieve superior performance. Formerly used only for subwoofers due to their limited bandwidth and relatively high distortion, the evolution of semiconductor devices has made possible the development of high fidelity, full audio range Class D amplifiers, with S/N and distortion levels similar to their linear counterparts.

Other classes
There are several other amplifier classes, although they are mainly variations of the previous classes. For example, Class H and Class G amplifiers are marked by variation of the supply rails (in discrete steps or in a continuous fashion, respectively) following the input signal. Wasted heat on the output devices can be reduced as excess voltage is kept to a minimum. The amplifier that is fed with these rails itself can be of any class. These kinds of amplifiers are more complex, and are mainly used for specialized applications, such as very high-power units. Also, Class E and Class F amplifiers are commonly described in literature for radio frequencies applications where efficiency of the traditional classes deviate substantially from their ideal values. These classes use harmonic tuning of their output networks to achieve higher efficiency and can be considered a subset of Class C due to their conduction angle characteristics

WikiBoy
05-03-2008, 10:00
Richard, your bit about taking the next letter does not make sense - are you seriously saying that class c amplification came along after a and b? Not when I went to college it didn't. Wot about Technics' class H then? Have we hit a rift in the time / space continuum :-)




I'll get me coat..........

Yes I am saying exactly that, it used to and should follow a timing sequence, though the marketeers are now even taking over that province from the techies, so in the last few years letters have been taken out of order as in T amp, and also now electronic firms are patenting or registering circuits that have no unique mode of operation for marketing purposes. So the process is being corrupted. Reality is being replaced by marketing delusion like so many things in the modern age. Ego based amateur marketeers at forums just perpetuate this process.

Anyway a simplistic but accurate description can be found at Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier

spendorman
05-03-2008, 10:11
Yes, I have a 80s Technics amp that calls itself "New Class A", that would have put me of buying it in the 80s. However, I was given it a couple of years ago and it is not bad. So in this case the "Class marketing thing" worked against them. I still do not know what New Class A is, if it ever exists. I guess it is class B and at low power operates in class A, just like the majority of transistor power amps.

Vinyl Grinder
05-03-2008, 10:24
So now all of a sudden you are agreeing with me. So now you accept that this following statement of yours is wrong, as I said - "it runs class 'A' up to around 8watt/8 Ohm, after that it runs into class 'A/B'".

Thats good, job done. That is all I wanted - to correct ignorance and misinformation.

No i've not changed what i said you obviously didn't read what i first said (Keep to the A1 )..You also quoted 15 watt output in class 'A', that's not true...

Is see Spendorman's quote at the A/B is more or less exactly what i said...

:ner:

WikiBoy
05-03-2008, 10:39
No i've not changed what i said you obviously didn't read what i first said (Keep to the A1 )..You also quoted 15 watt output in class 'A', that's not true...

Is see Spendorman's quote at the A/B is more or less exactly what i said...

:ner:

So amoungst all the amateur marketing speak can we get one accurate statement from you.

Do you still say (believe) that, I quote, "it (the MF A1) runs class 'A' up to around 8watt/8 Ohm, after that it runs into class 'A/B'".

greenhomeelectronics
05-03-2008, 10:52
Yes, I have a 80s Technics amp that calls itself "New Class A", that would have put me of buying it in the 80s. However, I was given it a couple of years ago and it is not bad. So in this case the "Class marketing thing" worked against them. I still do not know what New Class A is, if it ever exists. I guess it is class B and at low power operates in class A, just like the majority of transistor power amps.

Technics did a new class a and a new class aa - both were marketing spin. I often get asked which is better, I often wish I had a decent answer. They are very good amps actually when you look at the price / performance ratio. They sold absolutely shed loads of them, we get them in all the time. In fact they did a whole range of stuff including CD's and cassette decks that all proclaimed to be new class a or aa.

Can someone give me an estimate as to how long this argument is likely to go on for? Only I am out of popcorn and may nip out to get some more if it's going to go on for a while.:lolsign:

WikiBoy
05-03-2008, 11:15
"I look down on him because he is lower Class" From the Two Ronnies!



Correction - it was from TW3 (that was the week that was). John Cleese was the class A one :lolsign:

Vinyl Grinder
05-03-2008, 11:24
So amoungst all the amateur marketing speak can we get one accurate statement from you.

Do you still say (believe) that, I quote, "it (the MF A1) runs class 'A' up to around 8watt/8 Ohm, after that it runs into class 'A/B'".

Get lost richard your a wind up..Stop reading about general class 'A'.Big deal the A1 was rubbish anyway, pre amp section was crap.

WikiBoy
05-03-2008, 11:39
Get lost richard your a wind up..Stop reading about general class 'A'.Big deal the A1 was rubbish anyway, pre amp section was crap.

I don't read about them, I design them.

So we now have the implied correction even though you cannot be big enough to admit it.

"it (the MF A1) runs class 'A' up to around 8watt/8 Ohm, after that it runs into class 'A/B'"

becomes

"it (the MF A1) runs class 'A' up to around 8watt/8 Ohm, after that it runs into class 'B'"

Thank you - disagreement settled.

Marco
05-03-2008, 11:50
Can someone give me an estimate as to how long this argument is likely to go on for? Only I am out of popcorn and may nip out to get some more if it's going to go on for a while.:lolsign:


Dave don't mention popcorn to Richard, FFS! :lol:

Marco.

Vinyl Grinder
05-03-2008, 12:10
wrong! :lolsign:

High quiescent current means it stay in Class A longer, in the case of the MF A1 up to about 15w after that it is *pure* :) class B.

Nice to see you now agree that the 'A1' runs in class 'A' up to around 8 Watt, when you originally quoted 15Watt!...You certainly live upto your Avatar name as a (muppet) all right.I'm not too fussed if you design amps or make tea for the queen to be frank..I originally stated how the 'A1' runs till you totally twisted it contradicting me in the process...:mental:

;)

spendorman
05-03-2008, 12:13
Oh! yes, I seem to recollect that it may have been before the Two Ronnies, great stuff though. Yes I remember John Cleese in it. I obviously have a class B memory!


Correction - it was from TW3 (that was the week that was). John Cleese was the class A one :lolsign:

WikiBoy
05-03-2008, 12:36
Nice to see you now agree that the 'A1' runs in class 'A' up to around 8 Watt, when you originally quoted 15Watt!...You certainly live upto your Avatar name as a (muppet) all right.I'm not too fussed if you design amps or make tea for the queen to be frank..I originally stated how the 'A1' runs till you totally twisted it contradicting me in the process...:mental:

;)

Here we go again, just when I thought it was safe to go back into the water the bullshit starts again.

Correction
1/ I didn't give myself that name, it was someone in the forum admin, they obviously think it is funny, so I joined in the joke by putting up the picture.
2/ Watts are meaningless, as I said quite clearly in one of the posts the original design was by Tim de P (can't be bothered to spell the rest unless I get it wrong). He was employed for a while by MF. It was originally designed for higher class A operation. The first few (the review and dealer samples) were sent out like that and with the higher quality components. They then cheapened and lower spec'ed the components for production. They discovered that the production version were unreliable due to the cheapening and most failed, so they lowered the bias voltage to try and make them more reliable. Only a limited success, as it was always pretty unreliable. Even to the point of bankrupting a couple of overseas distributors.
2/ I made NO twisting of your words and I quoted you accurately in every post.

Vinyl Grinder
05-03-2008, 12:43
They must have hit you with the Muppet for some reason!

WikiBoy
05-03-2008, 12:53
They must have hit you with the Muppet for some reason!

Surely, but you will have to ask them. I quite like that character though.

"Dr. Bunsen Honeydew, here at Muppet labs where the future is being made today!"

"We are working harder, so we can go home earlier!"

"Now, Beakie, we'll just flip this switch and 60,000 refreshing volts of electricity will surge through your body. Ready?"

Beaker (aka Vinyl Grinder):
scientific assistant (and victim)
"Meep! Meep! Meep! ...
Meep! Meep!"

Vinyl Grinder
05-03-2008, 12:59
Don't need to ask stands to reason.
Now where's that ignore button!! Ah found it.

Filterlab
05-03-2008, 13:01
I now accept that Richard does have a cunning sense of humour, something I thought he was devoid of in previous conversations... I have been proved wrong. :lol:

Marco
05-03-2008, 14:39
Allow me to help...


the original design was by Tim de P (can't be bothered to spell the rest unless I get it wrong...


Paravicini :)

Marco.

Vinyl Grinder
05-03-2008, 16:56
(can't be bothered to spell the rest unless I get it wrong)

You been getting it wrong for years...:lolsign:

WikiBoy
05-03-2008, 18:08
You been getting it wrong for years...:lolsign:

You lied sir!

You told us I was now on your ignore list, but you can't do it can you. Your ego will not allow the slightest thing to pass without your comment.

Marco
05-03-2008, 18:24
Enough, please, both of you. I won't repeat myself again!

Marco

Filterlab
05-03-2008, 19:12
:lol:

There's a "love to hate" thing going on here I feel. ;)

Vinyl Grinder
05-03-2008, 19:34
:lol:

There's a "love to hate" thing going on here I feel. ;)

Yeh like fark there is.

Marco
05-03-2008, 19:54
Come on, Andre, give Richard a little :kiss:

Get yer tongue right in there!

:lol:

Marco.

Marco
05-03-2008, 22:01
Come on guys, you should know where to draw the line, or perhaps I have to draw it for you...

Marco.

Vinyl Grinder
05-03-2008, 23:46
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ELPFAN/05.jpg

:ner:

Steve Toy
06-03-2008, 01:15
Line now drawn (thanks André for the illustration).