RIP Portsmouth

[loo]

Sad news indeed
Another historic Industry given the Tory kiss of death
Thatchers Legacy eh
Paul

[Markiii]

Maybe there would be money to build ships if labour hadn't wasted it?

[Audioman]

It's continuing as a repair centre - still employing 11000. This has nothing to do with Thatcher :mental:

[Macca]

Will some people still be blaming Thatcher for all their problems in a 100 years time?

I suspect the answer is, sadly, yes.

What I found interesting about these scaledowns/closures is that they are portrayed as entirely the result of the RN not needing/being able to afford more ships. No-one has asked the question 'why is the only customer of these yards the RN?'

[loo]

Maybe there would be money to build ships if labour hadn't wasted it?
They all waste money , but Tory Governments decimate communities


It's continuing as a repair centre - still employing 11000. This has nothing to do with Thatcher :mental:
I,m sure that will be a great comfort to the 900 people losing their jobs and 600 years of collective experience, Prehaps they could build a tourist centre then the 900 could get jobs in costly coffee and putrid manglers serving the visitors ,don't you just love free market progress


Will some people still be blaming Thatcher for all their problems in a 100 years time?

History puts the worst tyrants to the forefront so yes
Paul

[MartinT]

Many governments have had the chance to protect our industries (like the French, you have to admire them) and none have.

Please don't lets have another simplistic political debate about the relative merits of the parties.

The closure of Portsmouth is very sad. It's down to a legacy of lack of investment, union intractability, all the government parties and the continued lack of protectionism for our major industries. As has been asked above: why were there not more customers than just the RN? Because they were uncompetitive.

[chris@panteg]

I think there is more to it than that , I think its more to do with keeping Scotland within the UK myself , its interesting to note that a ' YES ' vote next year would virtually condemn the Labour party to decades of opposition , possibly I don't know ? But 41 MP's ?

Even Cameron would rather save the union than guarantee his premiership at the next election , I'm inclined to agree with him .

[Audioman]

They all waste money , but Tory Governments decimate communities


I,m sure that will be a great comfort to the 900 people losing their jobs and 600 years of collective experience, Prehaps they could build a tourist centre then the 900 could get jobs in costly coffee and putrid manglers serving the visitors ,don't you just love free market progress



History puts the worst tyrants to the forefront so yes
Paul

This silly ignorant lefty ranting gets up my nose Paul. Frankly people who keep blaming Thatcher and dancing on her grave need to be called out on their behaviour.

Of course I sympathise with those who have lost their jobs but economics comes into these decisions somewhere. In this case there is a political element in relation to keeping shipbuilding in Scotland with a referendum coming up. Can't imagine the outcome being any different under a Labour government to be honest. Frankly I can come up with recent examples of industries closing under the last government that the Thatcher govt kept going - Austin/Rover the prime example.

This situation is the knock on of the financial crisis that was not of the Tory's making. Frankly they are already building an extra aircraft carrier that's not needed because it was cheaper than scrapping it. It looks to me that every effort is being made to maintain employment in this industry unlike in the eighties.

If you are going to comment on the undesirability of job losses please can we have some intelligent arguments.

Paul.

[daytona600]

BAE in glasgow is losing a 1,000 jobs as well remember as scotland is less than 10% of the UK Population this equates to 10,000 +
Big Blow to all of the UK

[Audioman]

BAE in glasgow is losing a 1,000 jobs as well remember as scotland is less than 10% of the UK Population this equates to 10,000 +
Big Blow to all of the UK

It's a blow to the local communities. These things get max publicity because they rely on government money. Hundreds of jobs disappear at a time all over the country and nobody bats an eyelid. 300 plus at Barclays call centre in Coventry just announced and it will only get local news coverage for a day or so.

[MartinT]

It's the effect of lag, too. We hit our economic low point a couple of years ago but it's taken until now to see the worst of it. In my sector, schools are merging and many smaller schools are teetering on the brink of collapse. Why? Because it's now that previously affluent parents are either tightening their purses or actually going bankrupt. The effects are hitting every level of society, no matter what the political persuasion.

[Effem]

It's a blow to the local communities. These things get max publicity because they rely on government money. Hundreds of jobs disappear at a time all over the country and nobody bats an eyelid. 300 plus at Barclays call centre in Coventry just announced and it will only get local news coverage for a day or so.

Well said Paul.

Not much comfort for those still in a job either as not many folks have not had a wage increase to keep up with the cost of living for a good few years now.

As for being "uncompetitive" on the global market, there are plenty of countries that have cheap labour that can build things at probably less than half the cost, but when I see in the news things like bridges and buildings regularly collapsing in places like China and India, using substandard materials, their health and safety regime is just non-existent, then "cheap" is not always the best solution is it?

I think the world should stop for a minute and realise that MONEY is not the be-all and end-all for human survival.

[Macca]

History puts the worst tyrants to the forefront so yes
Paul

I'd hardly put Thatcher up there with the worst tyrants in history. That's a little starry-eyed I feel.

Aside from that the worst tyrants are always socialists and communists - Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and so forth. You want to see real decimation of communities then read about what they did.

[synsei]

I think there is more to it than that , I think its more to do with keeping Scotland within the UK myself , its interesting to note that a ' YES ' vote next year would virtually condemn the Labour party to decades of opposition , possibly I don't know ? But 41 MP's ?

Even Cameron would rather save the union than guarantee his premiership at the next election , I'm inclined to agree with him .

It was a political decision regardless of how many of Cameron's clowns argue to the contrary, however this is a dangerous gambit which could have dire consequences. Tory commentators have repeatedly stated that they expect the Scottish electorate to do the right thing and vote to keep Scotland within the union, and the carrot for that is the certainty that should they do so the new Type 26 Frigate fleet will be built on the Clyde. So, what if the Scots vote for independence, what happens then? As I understand it, under EU procurement rules, the MoD will not be able to source the frigates from Clydeside if Scotland becomes an independent nation, in which case where will they be built, Devonport? I seriously doubt Devonport has the capacity. No, the obvious place to build the Type 26 would be Portsmouth, except it's shipbuilding capabilities will be long gone by then.

As for the unions being intractable Martin, that is simply not true in this case, sorry ;)

[StanleyB]

As for being "uncompetitive" on the global market, there are plenty of countries that have cheap labour that can build things at probably less than half the cost, but when I see in the news things like bridges and buildings regularly collapsing in places like China and India, using substandard materials, their health and safety regime is just non-existent, then "cheap" is not always the best solution is it?
And the Chinese are going to build us a couple of nuclear power stations. Imagine if one of those collapses.

[Audioman]

And the Chinese are going to build us a couple of nuclear power stations. Imagine if one of those collapses.

Chinese are building nothing. The design is French with French and Chinese investment partnership. French are now world leaders in this Technology. Anyway they are trying the design out on the Chinese first so if it goes bang we will get a forewarning.

[Audioman]

It was a political decision regardless of how many of Cameron's clowns argue to the contrary, however this is a dangerous gambit which could have dire consequences. Tory commentators have repeatedly stated that they expect the Scottish electorate to do the right thing and vote to keep Scotland within the union, and the carrot for that is the certainty that should they do so the new Type 26 Frigate fleet will be built on the Clyde. So, what if the Scots vote for independence, what happens then? As I understand it, under EU procurement rules, the MoD will not be able to source the frigates from Clydeside if Scotland becomes an independent nation, in which case where will they be built, Devonport? I seriously doubt Devonport has the capacity. No, the obvious place to build the Type 26 would be Portsmouth, except it's shipbuilding capabilities will be long gone by then.

As for the unions being intractable Martin, that is simply not true in this case, sorry ;)

If the Scots are stupid enough to vote for independence the reality is whole country will be in one big mess with so much being interconnected illustrated by the recent near closure of a petrochemicals plant which supplies north of England and Northern Ireland as well. Also remember UK govt owns all the Scottish banks and they rely on British defence spending to keep the Scottish economy afloat. Not to mention the ensuing argument as to who owns the oil etc etc etc.

[MartinT]

As for the unions being intractable Martin, that is simply not true in this case, sorry ;)

I was talking historically, not just about Portsmouth. There is a long and sad story of unions wrecking British industry due to their intractability. They damn nearly did it again in Grangemouth, simply by not accepting what is clear to see: that there cannot be enough jobs or salary to go round, so accept some reductions or redundancies rather than destroy the industry. Let's face it, we're nearly all suffering from pay freezes, pay reductions or extremely low increases.

[synsei]

I was talking historically, not just about Portsmouth. There is a long and sad story of unions wrecking British industry due to their intractability. They damn nearly did it again in Grangemouth, simply by not accepting what is clear to see: that there cannot be enough jobs or salary to go round, so accept some reductions or redundancies rather than destroy the industry. Let's face it, we're nearly all suffering from pay freezes, pay reductions or extremely low increases.

Generalised opinions aren't helpful in this instance though Martin as the unions have been working tirelessly with the MoD, BAe Systems and the local authorities in Portsmouth to secure the best outcome for the dockyards workforce. I wouldn't be surprised if they and the local authorities are feeling somewhat betrayed by the government just now.

I couldn't agree more with your stance on 'Unite' however which has behaved abominably. Len McClusky, Unites General Secretary, will be lucky to escape charges of intimidation.

[synsei]

If the Scots are stupid enough to vote for independence the reality is whole country will be in one big mess with so much being interconnected illustrated by the recent near closure of a petrochemicals plant which supplies north of England and Northern Ireland as well. Also remember UK govt owns all the Scottish banks and they rely on British defence spending to keep the Scottish economy afloat. Not to mention the ensuing argument as to who owns the oil etc etc etc.

My point Paul is that all the while the Tories continue to act arrogantly over the issue so they will continue to put backs up North of the border, which in turn will sway those sitting on the fence to fall on the side of independence. This is a matter which needs to be handled delicately and the Tories don't do delicate. It will take a party which understands and is sympathetic to the psyche of the Scottish population to persuade them to stay within the union.

[Audioman]

My point Paul is that all the while the Tories continue to act arrogantly over the issue so they will continue to put backs up North of the border, which in turn will sway those sitting on the fence to fall on the side of independence. This is a matter which needs to be handled delicately and the Tories don't do delicate. It will take a party which understands and is sympathetic to the psyche of the Scottish population to persuade them to stay within the union.

Maybe but at least Alistair Darling is running the No campaign. Frankly only people really enthusiastic about this are the SNP and probably a few at the top of the party. I sometimes think Alex Salmond really wants just expanded powers and has now dug a hole for himself. Remember few people came out in favour of proportional representation when it came to actually voting or rather couldn't be arsed to vote. It's obviously wise not to upset Scottish public opinion and I do think the government are sensitive to this. Also remember Conservatives have had few votes in Scotland since Thatchers Poll Tax blunder. Scots have been isolated from many of the Tory/Lib cost savings in any case so I think local factors may have more of an influence. I do appreciate there are some brainwashed people up there like a lad on Question Time that genuinely believed Scots were persecuted in England. On the contrary they are practically allowed to run the country. :)

[MartinT]

It will take a party which understands and is sympathetic to the psyche of the Scottish population to persuade them to stay within the union.

Ok, I'm outta here as no such party exists (sympathy from a political party) and this debate is rapidly going to descend into entrenched party positions.

Play nicely, guys, or you'll find this thread will get quickly locked.

[loo]

This silly ignorant lefty ranting gets up my nose Paul. Frankly people who keep blaming Thatcher and dancing on her grave need to be called out on their behaviour.
Paul.
Hi Paul sorry you found my post cerablly inept , don't mind being called ignorant I am a working class thickly afterall but I do object to lefty , as for dancing on Thatchers grave a bit dramatic I feel but hey if you want drama , then I have friends in the ground because of her policies and as far as I am concearned her government danced on their graves so for me it's a case of what goes around .....
Paul

[synsei]

I am not arguing from a party perspective Martin, I am holding the incumbent government to account. I would put forward the same argument regardless of which party was in power if they behaved in the same manner. It would be nice if successive governments learnt lessons from their forebears but unfortunately they are all far to keen on blaming each other for their own mistakes. No wonder politicians engender such little respect in this country.

[Audioman]

Hi Paul sorry you found my post cerablly inept , don't mind being called ignorant I am a working class thickly afterall but I do object to lefty , as for dancing on Thatchers grave a bit dramatic I feel but hey if you want drama , then I have friends in the ground because of her policies and as far as I am concearned her government danced on their graves so for me it's a case of what goes around .....
Paul

I am not trying to be personal Paul but I am a bit tired of people holding grudges 25 years on and it's not a class thing. Frankly I think any arguments about Mrs Thatcher are pretty irrelevant to the rights or wrongs of the Portsmouth redundancies. Her actions via the Poll Tax certainly had an indirect effect on the haste in allowing a Scottish assembly which inevitably has led to the question of independence. Obviously not upsetting the Scots may have played a part in the way these redundancies have been distributed but they are fairly even handed between north and south.