View Full Version : Laptop Vs Streamer.
goodsguys
03-11-2013, 07:15
HI And thanks for reading this post.
I am listening to movies, blurays, dvds etc through my hp 8570p laptop (£1200). i7 3520m cpu, 4 gigs ram ddr3.
I am wondering if changing to a media streamer would help to increase audio and video quality.
So i picked up a budget Ac-Ryan for £80, have heard a few good things about it.
But laptop turned out to be much better for audio and video quality.
As budget streamers are not cutting it, do you think upgrading to a top end streamer would be a good move or do you think i should stick with the laptop.
Have you tried a top end streamer or read anything.
Many thanks in advance. John.
StanleyB
03-11-2013, 07:52
There are numerous ways to go about this. I use a couple of them.
You can get a NAS drive like the Zyxel NSA310/320. Find yourself a Squeezebox Touch (with great difficulty). The two will communicate with each other over a network. You can stick a DAC onto the Touch as well.
Using this combination you can stream music from the NAS to the Touch, and then to your stereo. Or from the Touch through the external DAC to the stereo.
You can operate this setup with or without a laptop. I use a Mediamonkey plugin to operate the Touch via my laptop when I am using the laptop. Otherwise I use the remote control for the Touch. But you can get apps etc to operate the setup with a phone.
Another way to go that will give great sounds is to get a Blue ray player with a USB input for media files Depending on what video quality you want you can go from a cheap Sony Blue ray player to a Oppo and then use a external DAC put music files either on a few USB memory keys or external SSD and you have something that will allow you to have fantastic audio and you can stream films etc with. Basically they are using a linux based system to hear the files I use this with a Bushmaster mk2 and get fantastic sounds the only thing I heard as good is MGn on a laptop
goodsguys
04-11-2013, 07:34
Hi. Thanks for the reply, much appreciated.
Even though your words of wisdom are invaluable to me still does not answer the question is laptop better than streamer.
At the moment i am running the pc usb port into a headroom dac (£700) then into a £10k audio system which i picked up on ebay by the sniping method.
But the thing which really bugs me is it does not sound like a 10k system. The speakers and active amps are working fine, for video the laptop is running into a brand new acer projector (£2k). I gave it a good listening to yesterday and it just sounds ok but nothing like a 10k system should. The video quality is ok as well.
By process of elimination the weak link might be the laptop. My reasoning is perhaps a pc is a jack-of-all-trades, in that it is used for word processing, internet surfing, spreadsheets, etc Perhaps a streamer which is specalised to do one thing may excel in that area, which is the reason for this thread.
I am really interested in the blu ray player method, can you expand on the laptop comparison you did, you didn't mention which laptop you compared it against.
Your thoughts and suggestions will be most appreciated.
Many thanks. John.
The Grand Wazoo
04-11-2013, 08:56
It sounds to me as though you need to do some work on setting up the '10k audio system' and ensuring that it's performing as it should before you start introducing big variables like a new and unknown source.
Why not stick a few photos up & describe the room and the way it's set up, including the geometry of the speaker placement?
The thing is it depends on which laptop and which streamer and how each is set up.
If your laptop is quiet; inaudible fan noise, near silent hard drive etc, then they are quite capable of performing as well as the majority of streamers/music servers available, if they are set up properly.
In my experience, the audio performance between the reputed best of the music servers and say for example a Mac dedicated to audio is small. It’s not until you venture into the realms of split linear power supplies, RAM or flash card resident operating systems, external SSD storage etc etc that you might just pick one from another in a ABX test for example.
Bear in mind that the vast majority of so called streamers are computers based on ordinary computer components. Often the only real differences apart from a cool looking case are a SSD and passive cooling. There are a few where some degree of scripting/coding has been done but by and large even the audio codecs are exactly the same as those in a standard laptop.
I shouldn’t get too retentive about how you transfer the digital data but I’ve found PC/laptop/music server - external Dac – Hi Fi works best.
I was just wondering what you think a 10K system sounds like?
an async usb dac streamer should improve the audio somewhat I would think, like the m2 tech or the hrt
The laptop was 8gb 1tb just being used for audio playback using MQn which is a really good platform to get the best out of Windows and WAV files. I perfer MQn (its open source too) to Jplay as a means to get the best from Windows based systems
With a Blue ray player if you using something like a Oppo its using a Linux operating system if using the USB input. Using this method gets some very good results. The Blue ray player can be used as a video/sound streamer Netflick Youtube BBC IPlayer etc. If you go for the 105 it has a good inbuilt DAC but I not the greatest fan of the sabre DAC and would go for the 103 and get something like the Bushmaster MK2 with a battery which is pretty much up with DACs like the Cunas and Metrium Octavia if using a external battery power supply. To use the Oppo save files onto a external SSD or USB memory card. Avoid SATA it just does not as good in my system.
If you got money to spare go down the dedicated server and have dedicated power supplies. You can really go to town this way
The thing is it depends on which laptop and which streamer and how each is set up.
If your laptop is quiet; inaudible fan noise, near silent hard drive etc, then they are quite capable of performing as well as the majority of streamers/music servers available, if they are set up properly.
In my experience, the audio performance between the reputed best of the music servers and say for example a Mac dedicated to audio is small. It’s not until you venture into the realms of split linear power supplies, RAM or flash card resident operating systems, external SSD storage etc etc that you might just pick one from another in a ABX test for example.
Bear in mind that the vast majority of so called streamers are computers based on ordinary computer components. Often the only real differences apart from a cool looking case are a SSD and passive cooling. There are a few where some degree of scripting/coding has been done but by and large even the audio codecs are exactly the same as those in a standard laptop.
I shouldn’t get too retentive about how you transfer the digital data but I’ve found PC/laptop/music server - external Dac – Hi Fi works best.
I was just wondering what you think a 10K system sounds like?
What he said, especially this bit "I’ve found PC/laptop/music server - external Dac – Hi Fi works best."
Your question is too broad and you have not provided enough information for us too help you effectively, but one thing I can tell you is that if you can put a decent server together/configure a PC/laptop yourself, you will get a great sound and not spend oodles of money. But there is not simple one is better than the other answer, without knowing exactly what you are comparing? The only advice I can give is you need to do some research (lots) and then some listening ;)
Bushmaster MK2 with a battery which is pretty much up with DACs like the Cunas and Metrium Octavia if using a external battery power supply.
Hi John, is the Bushmaster MK2 really up there with the Cunas and Octavia? That's impressive company.
Its hard to compare to be honest The Cunas using MQn the Bushmaster 2 using a Blue Ray player so a bit like Apples and Pears and I am not sure how much the influnce of transport is having. But apart from the clicks coming into files and out on the Sony Blue ray player( The Oppo does not have this issue) we found it hard to tell the difference. MQn gives you a lot of different options but as for better I think it would come down to taste its easy to live with both approaches. The Bushmaster needs Battery to get to this level
Between the Cunas and Octavia they have different strengths I only heard the Octavia in this context but given that the Cunas held its own with the Octavia I think the Bushmaster does quite well
We had to alter the cross over on the set up as the Bushmaster gave more upper bass, once we did this it was hard to decide which we liked best
goodsguys
05-11-2013, 04:56
Hi Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.
If the equipment is all fine then it is probably the room acoustics.
I remember listing to my equipment in the small bedroom a few years ago and it sounded fantastic.
My daughter got married and moved out so i converted her room into my listening room and the sound quality went absolutely downhill. I mean it was awful, like some cheap $50 set up.
It is amazing how much difference the room can make, once you are in a bad room there is nothing you can do.
Think i might pack up and move back into the small bedroom. I liked my daughter's room as i could get a 170 inch picture out of the projector, with the small room i am restricted to 75 inches but at least i'll have the audio quality back
Many thanks for all the advice. John.
Many thanks. John.
Try changing the speakers around Use rugs etc might help if the sound is to lively
loonytunes
06-11-2013, 13:08
I personally think a change of transport could make a bigger difference than you think!
Firstly try a good quality CD player (that hopefully you might have kicking around) and see if that improves things considerably.
With a 10k system you may very well have room acoustic issues - but you tend to get the gist of a system even if it's not quite right. Also with a 10k system you are very likely to detect flaws with anything upstream.. so trying a different transport is a very good plan to start off with.
I don't personally believe that using a computer as a source will give you the best SQ compared to a dedicated streamer.
My recent experience exposed that many varied computer sources of mine did not compare even close to the now discontinued Marantz NA7004. The Marantz will also see off an SBT - but you have to put up with the fact that both the SBT and computer is likely to have better GUI's - I pick SQ first though.
However for SQ alone - as a transport - the example of the Marantz NA7004 (and other dedicated streamers I perhaps have not tried) is most certainly a cut above the rest - so should be sampled by you at least before you go any further.
goodsguys
07-11-2013, 07:30
Hi Thanks for the reply.
You are the first person to express this point of view.
Can you expand a little on what you mean, if you have tried any pc vs streaming equipment.
Which pc did you use. What kind of differences did you detect, where they major or minor.
I looked up the marantz and what hi fi mentioned the pioneer n-50 as well, the only thing that bothered me is
the two machines appear to only play back certain file types whereas with a pc i can playback just about anything.
I was going to splash out £2k on a top end laptop wondering if this might make a difference
you may have saved me a lot of money.
Many thanks. John.
I think some clarification is required here……..
First there is some form of transport. This can take the form of CD transport, a music server, a PC, a laptop, that will process digital data be it taken from a digital file or from a CD.
Then you have a digital to analogue converter (Dac)
The term streamer is misleading. There are comparatively few streamers as such and in general what are described as streamers are in fact computers with an onboard Dac.
In my view single box units described as streamers do not perform as well as a server of some description which sends digital data to an off board Dac.
To further clarify, this for example may be called a streamer but it is just a Dac.
http://highresolutiontechnologies.com/music-streamer-ii
very good they are too I might add.
This on the other hand is a music server.
http://www.quietpc.com/sys-sidewinder
as is this
http://store.voyage.hk/KMPD2k.php?id=99
both also very good. One offers options better suited to your needs perhaps.
You need both the above units before amplification.
The Marantz NA7004 http://www.whathifi.com/Review/Marantz-NA7004/
referred to by Chris above may be an excellent machine but in essence it is a computer with a built in Dac.
So, what I have tried to explain above is a properly set up laptop (including optimal hardware) will in my experience perform as well as the vast majority of dedicated music servers on the market. Audio engineers for example have been happily using Macs connected to Dacs for many years now.
It’s only when you get into fairly complicated and extreme designs of music servers that they begin to noticeably outperform a properly set up laptop.
May I suggest you have a search around this forum regarding digital/file based audio systems. There is a lot of information here on this topic.
Lastly, forget about about how much a system costs as a means of judging sound quality. The Linux/MPD music server feeding an HRT Dac for example will and has in my experience outshone many far more expensive systems. :)
PS. I just thought I should mention that I am not suggesting you buy the Linux MPD music server and the HRT Dac (which would also save you a lot of money ;) ) unless you have areasonable grasp of digital audio and Linux.
I also have an HRT music streamer II+, and it punches way above it's price bracket. I had a Cambridge 850c with a load of click capacitor and output stage mods that sounded broken in comparison. I was MOST surprised. It is good enough that Conrad johnson put one in a nice box with a linear PSU and charge thousands of dollars for it.
Certainly worth a try with your existing laptop.
Regards,
Alex
loonytunes
08-11-2013, 13:04
I think some clarification is required here……..
The Marantz NA7004 http://www.whathifi.com/Review/Marantz-NA7004/
referred to by Chris above may be an excellent machine but in essence it is a computer with a built in Dac.
Absolutely - the Marantz is in fact a computer with a built in DAC - but a computer which has already been very highly optimised by Marantz engineers for dedicated music replay - incorporating superb power regulation.
This saves you a lot of trouble of trying to build highly optimised PC, where to compare with the above you would need to make it fanless, change the power supply, incorporate and anti-vibration chassis, install a SSD disk, choose a suitable OS and player - and so it goes on.
Sometimes it's easier to find something pre-built with music replay in mind - and at this price - who's to complain.
I will agree though that its not as versatile as a PC so it has its limitations - but for SQ - that's where it counts.
Remember that the Marantz can also be a dedicated DAC, and has a built in FM radio too (even though you may not need these extra functions).
Another very interesting consideration for you is a Yamaha CD-N500 which has recently seen a large price drop from about £500 to £250. This is both a CD spinner and very highly capable streamer built to a high standard.
The Marantz NA7004 is no more a PC, than my new car stereo...
Both has got processors, just like PC's, but these appliances does not rely on software like an OS to function.
That means they are preprogrammed using firmware, and most functions are hardware based.
They DO talk to PC's in one way or another (USB/DLNA/UPnP) though.
Fully agree that the Marantz NA-7004 blows Squeeze away quite easily soundwise. Have had both in my system.
And i have never heard a PC/Mac that comes even close to the audio quality of my Bladelius Embla network/disc player.
I do use a Mac/Amarra with an USB2SPDIF converter to feed the Embla digital signal sometimes. Flexibility is the only advantage for a PC/Mac as i see it.
Of course you can always claim that my pc/mac's have not been correctly configured, and i cannot but state that my 20years of experience in computer audio would leave me reasonably competent. ;)
Your Bladelius Embla looks like an interesting product. I think there is a lot of potential for innovation for digital audio streamers/hubs providing network and disk playback/ripping and streaming.
I wonder whether the Bladeluis embla uses something like a Linux varient, or a RT OS or completely bespoke stack. I don't think there is a need for a task-specific OS for audio, especially when it needs a IP stack, file systems, graphical UI as a well as support for audio streaming and playback. An optimised Linux build with carefully designed hardware will do nicely. the only problem is finding the right compute platform and IO options - this is where most generic PC-based platforms fall down.
loonytunes
09-11-2013, 15:04
The Marantz NA7004 is no more a PC, than my new car stereo...
Both has got processors, just like PC's, but these appliances does not rely on software like an OS to function.
That means they are preprogrammed using firmware, and most functions are hardware based.
They DO talk to PC's in one way or another (USB/DLNA/UPnP) though.
Fully agree that the Marantz NA-7004 blows Squeeze away quite easily soundwise. Have had both in my system.
And i have never heard a PC/Mac that comes even close to the audio quality of my Bladelius Embla network/disc player.
I do use a Mac/Amarra with an USB2SPDIF converter to feed the Embla digital signal sometimes. Flexibility is the only advantage for a PC/Mac as i see it.
Of course you can always claim that my pc/mac's have not been correctly configured, and i cannot but state that my 20years of experience in computer audio would leave me reasonably competent. ;)
I obviously agree that SQ wise the NA7004 is far better than an SB. But again adding the fact that the NA7004 as a transport only device is superb too, and therefore offers a great platform for any connecting external DAC - the transport "does" make a difference!!!. Ok so its S/PDIF - but don't get over enthusiastic about the idea of async USB - its not all its cracked up to be! The NA7004 is only an example... there are others too like the Pioneer N50K and the Yamaha CD-N500 so name but a few - however I have no experience of these others (yet).
The Marantz NA7004 is no more a PC, than my new car stereo...
Hmmm, maybe not a PC, but the Marantz NA7004 is most definitely a computer and I would hazard a guess that your new car stereo is probably a computer too ;)
I would also add that a properly configured device using 'computer' components can produce high quality sound for around a third the price of a comparable CD transport and going up the scale with server design, paying attention to both power supplies and operating systems (especially power) and you can arrive slap bang in the middle of the world of so called 'high end audio' (whatever that is?) for a fraction of the cost.
If we can agree that anything containing a processor, configured by some form of software is a computer, then yes... My car stereo is a computer too :)
And yes, even the Embla is a computer by that definition. What differentiates the Embla from most other network players is the fact that it is NOT based on an OS. It is purpose built to play audio files from disc or over the network and all of it's software is assembly coded and stored on an SD card.
That also is one of its disadvantages, updates are scarse and it still needs some minor upgrades.
Basically it is very much like the Marantz NA-7004 and Pineer N-50, both of which sounds almost as good but lacks two important features (for me)
These features are;
Excellent Analog preamp, one fully balanced and two single ended inputs.
Volume control, in the analogue domain.
Those two are ported over from the Bladelius Saga preamp, a really nice pre.
And yes, i feel a little patriotic as it is Swedish design, and fully built in Sweden! ;)
Regards Mike
Mike, are you sure there is no OS? Not even a real time kernel like vnx?. I'm just interested in it's architecture. I'd be willing to bet that they didn't write their own ip stack (for example) or file system too much cost/effort for a fully bespoke platform.
Best regards,
Alex
According to the designer, the software is 100% proprietary. But it also makes sense, what you're typing AlexM..
I mean, i needs to be able to talk:
TCP/IP
UPnP/DLNA
USB 2.0
Needs to understand FAT32
Etc. Etc.
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/BE3.JPG
Inside view of the Embla Classic DL
(Classic means dual DAC's, three filters/settings. DL means it does not store music internally, and dors not have a ripping function)
Regards Mike
loonytunes
15-11-2013, 08:51
I also have an HRT music streamer II+, and it punches way above it's price bracket. I had a Cambridge 850c with a load of click capacitor and output stage mods that sounded broken in comparison. I was MOST surprised. It is good enough that Conrad johnson put one in a nice box with a linear PSU and charge thousands of dollars for it.
Certainly worth a try with your existing laptop.
Regards,
Alex
Where did you learn that CJ are using a HRT in their flashy streamer out of interest (and it is very interesting...!)
Hi Chris,
There is a thread on in the C-J sub forum at audio aficionado.com http:// http://www.audioaficionado.org/conrad-johnson/10083-conrad-johnson-hd3-usb-dac-5.html (here).
Internal pics at xycad.com http:// http://www.xycad.com/bbs/thread-64880-1-1.html
It appears to be an msII+ with extensive power supply and analogue stages.
Cheers,
Alex
Hi Chris,
There is a thread on in the C-J sub forum at audio aficionado.com here (http://www.audioaficionado.org/conrad-johnson/10083-conrad-johnson-hd3-usb-dac-5.html).
Internal pics at xycad.com here. (http://www.xycad.com/bbs/thread-64880-1-1.html)
It appears to be an msII+ with extensive power supply and analogue stages.
Cheers,
Alex
Reading through the posts and see the op suggesting he was considering spending 2k on a laptop. If you have that budget build or buy a dedicated fanless pc in a streacom or hdplex case. Get linear power supplies and your choice of music software. MQn (brillant) free but not glossy, Jplay, Jriver etc etc. You would find it hard to spend 2k on an i7 or i5 based pc with 8-16gb ram, SSD etc. The laptop is just not at the races compared to dedicated PC but it still aint bad and it is more convenient. But again at your budget you can control everything with a cheap laptop or tablet.
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