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View Full Version : Linn 'fanbois': blinkered, deluded, brainwashed or just deaf?



Marco
27-05-2009, 17:34
I've just read this on pfm and nearly shat myself laughing:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=838634#post838634

Note in particular posts #437, #438 and #439...


a planar 2 destroyed them [Technics SP10s]


And this 'pearl of wisdom' from the same blinkered/deaf/deluded/brainwashed (delete as appropriate) fanboi:


Same here...one of my most fun adventures was a P2 against a Goldmund Reference at a client's home. Again, no need to drag out the Fruitbox.


Oh FFS, what planet are these people on? I honestly don't know whether to laugh, cry, or make an appointment at the doctor for them to have their ears syringed! :lol: :D :rolleyes:

In fact, on reflection, perhaps a psychiatry appointment is more appropriate?

Marco.

John
27-05-2009, 17:56
Perhaps they live in some kind of parrell universe

Marco
27-05-2009, 18:27
Perhaps indeed, John! :mental:

Could someone please explain to me how a flimsy motor unit with a puny, 'cheap-as-chips' power supply, driven by an elastic band and housed in a block of MDF, warbling and wavering all over the place in terms of speed stability (and hence pitch) when playing music, could be anything else but fatally flawed and fundamentally broken?

I'm referring here to the P2, not the LP12. The latter is bad enough, but the former makes the latter sound 'accurate'! The P2 (or 3) is a heavily-compromised toy in comparison to an SP10, nothing more.

When will these people learn that what they like about LP12s or entry-level Regas is simply the way that they colour the sound (and hence music played)? There's nothing wrong with that, but it is most certainly not real, or 'tuneful'.

I guess that people could call some of us here 'Techy fanbois'... But speaking for myself, the only reason that I use a Sound Hi-fi-modified SL-1210 is because (aside from an SP10 or EMT) it's the only T/T I've heard *so far* which imposes as little signature as possible on music reproduced: effectively, you hear the 'message', not the overwhelming sonic signature of the 'messenger'.

I couldn't give a monkey's bollocks about anything else, and I'm sure that the Pioneer and Denon D/Ds of this world are just as adept at the above, too. I'm not seeking a certain 'sound' - I just want to hear what's actually on the record (as far as is possible).

Surely that's the goal as far as any turntable is concerned? Why do some people need to have an artificial 'flavour' superimposed onto their music to find it enjoyable? :confused:

Marco.

DaveK
27-05-2009, 18:45
Live and let live - the beauty is in the ear of the beholder - one man's meat is another man's poison - I hate to see opinions which are likely to polarise opinion - what about the people who have just bought a Rega TT?
Does this smack of elitism??
I have just taken an option on a Pro-Ject Debut 3 - what's your opinion on that, just out of interest.
:cool:

REM
27-05-2009, 18:46
It's because of threads like that I dont bother posting on PFM and other fora. What would be the point, 500 posts and counting, who the hell is going to take the least bit of notice of anything that anyone else had to say?
Surely it's the internet equivalent of a scratched record/blip/record/blip/record...
going on and on till someone turns it off.
At least here the arguments are more to the point and a darn sight more amusing:lolsign:

Cheers
Ralph:cool:

Marco
27-05-2009, 18:57
Hi Dave,

I have no problem with "live and let live" and people's (honest) differing opinions on genuinely comparable equipment, but when people talk complete rubbish like that simply to affirm their dogmatic beliefs and convince themselves that they're right - and most importantly - deliberately mislead the uninitiated, it is unforgivable. It's nonsense like that which helps perpetrate the age-old myths that exist in British high-end hi-fi.

It's also quite obvious, as ex-Linn dealers, that these people have an agenda!!

Oh, and to answer your question, I'd rather have the Pro-Ject than a Rega P2 :)

In fact, I'd rather have a stock SL-1200/1210, second-hand or otherwise, (with a few small and inexpensive tweaks), or a Lenco, than either of them, simply because the sonic (and musical) potential is far greater, and hence also SPPV (sound-per-pound value) :cool:

Marco.

Marco
27-05-2009, 19:07
Ralph,

I enjoy some of the discussions on pfm, but when I read that deluded fantasy tale I nearly spat out my dinner!!! :lol:

Therefore I just had to 'address' the issue in the hope that anyone reading both forums (which is often the case) would see this thread and have access to 'the other side of the coin', so to speak.

It's important that people aren't put off buying SP10s or modified SL-1210s as a result of being influenced by someone's blinkered agenda!

Marco.

DSJR
27-05-2009, 20:31
I'm not going to post here what I've posted there [edit - well I have, in a nutshell], but as many popular 1970's LP's are sh*t cuts and pressings of the finest order, the LP12 made them interesting and involving to listen to. The Technics SL110 I had before had feedback problems (they did then and specialist supports weren't even thought of) and reproduced the LP's more as they are - not always pleasant....

Ivor worked VERY hard to sell his product to young sales-guys like me. To be fair, he talked a lot of sense and getting one's trust is one good way to make industry friends and influence people.

The LP12 really did get you to the heart and soul of the music played, but in my case, I was long exposed to good master-tape copies and the utterly compelling qualities they have. Further exposure to The Blue Nile masters at the factory showed just how far Linn needed to go with the fruitbox. My "salvation" came with my discovery of the NAS decks.

having a Techie SL1700 in for a cartridge change reminded me how good these old direct drives could be, so it came as no surprise when Ken Kessler was deeply shocked by the performance of the SL1210 Gold edition. Further chats with a fellow LP12 setter-upper in our London branch confirmed that these old decks weren't anything like as bad as we had thought and actually very good indeed if carefully positioned (secretly of course, as the sales director would have had us on the carpet like a dose of salts).

I rarely go there, but the naim forum is an LP12 wet-fest, any suggestion of alternatives apparently met with silence, or derision, or criticism of the setup - thirty years after I used to spout this nonsense.......

Linn have just launched a sound idea at a hideous price - a in-built phono stage and a much better motor system (DC after decades of slag-offs). I'm sure they work well, as Roksan proved over twenty years ago that the Arta-Xerxes was a good idea and the old Airpax motor is a vibrational disaster, but the cost of keeping up with the LP12 Jones's is now out of reach for most owners I reckon...

NRG
27-05-2009, 21:47
Marco, they are deluded, blinkered and brainwashed.

--Neal (an ex LP12 owner for 15 years who saw the light ;) )

pure sound
27-05-2009, 22:01
I'm amused that the died in the wool Linnies are now telling the Linn owner participating that his LP12 isn't really Linn enough. I wonder at what point it stopped being an LP12. When the power supply went on? Maybe the new plinth? The J7 rebuilt Ittok perhaps or the ESCoed Troika. Is an LP12 now not an LP12 if it doesn't have a Keel or the other recent mods? Linn owners everywhere will be horrified, and the Linnistas now have their get out!

DSJR
27-05-2009, 22:06
Is it no surprise that many devout audio anoraks are almost certainly Aspergic to a degree? - "My way is the only way and you non-believers are WRONG!!!!!!" These people have a need to "belong" - well, I did, and what better than the first generation of the Linn/Naim owners club, following the Quad club that preceeded it...

Increasing age, experience and, I hope, maturity, does have its benefits I suppose. There's a whole load of things I want to try again, or even for the first time.

By the way, I haven't played a CD in weeks..................

The Grand Wazoo
27-05-2009, 22:28
Marco,
There could one of, or several, things at play here.

I think this behaviour is often a way that people have of justifying their investment (and maybe, sometimes, their lack of investment) - not to others, but to themselves.

However, people also look for different things in their hi-fi. Some value imaging above all else (strange, but true) & others fall for the toe-tapping loblocks as touted by your fellow countrymen. As long as your system delivers what you want it to deliver, are you wrong?

I know what you mean though, I remember the articles in Hi-fi Review & the Flat Response - the rag that spawned it that categorically stated that a Linn Basik cartidge made a Koetsu Black sound like a steel gramophone needle (or some such), and preferred a NAD 3020 over a highly revered US preamp. This attitude does no-one any favours.

Incidentally, those mags spent as much time flying across the room accompanied by a large quantity of swearing as they did being read, but they were sometimes quite entertaining in their own way!!

Ali Tait
28-05-2009, 09:01
Yes good post,and I have to say I'm one of the strange ones,having imaging and soundstaging high up on the list of what engages me in hi-fi,hence why I like SE amps and electrostatics.Both I think are unrivalled in these abilities.

REM
28-05-2009, 09:15
Apparently it seems the guy with the P2 that pisses all over every DD ever made and pretty much every other deck as well, bar one of course, no longer listens to vinyl at all having discovered the obvious superiority of CD in the early/mid nineties and selling his collection of Blue Notes/Columbia 6-eyes etc. at record fairs to Jap collectors throwing wads of cash at him, so why bother participating in the thread at all, ffs??
Anyway the OP has had to start a new thread to help him in his journey, he seems to want to go down the 301/401/124 route which is fair enough but in the current market climate I can't help but think it's going to end up costing more than just a penny or two, ah well each to their own I guess.

Boogie on
Ralph

Spectral Morn
28-05-2009, 12:06
Hi Guys

I would have thought one of these
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/Goldmund.jpg

would eat a Rega planner 2 or 3 for breakfast(almost anything would IMHO). This TT is a Pierre Lurne design and while the set up and arm is fussy its a great TT but the PL version may be slightly better...not sure.

However if it was this they were talking about
http://home.c2i.net/jantoresvart/turntables/goldmund-ref.jpg

then it takes no prisoners I would imagine and so will the new version of it.

http://www.goldmund.com/aproducts/reference2/lastpictures/Ref2_4.jpg


Regards D S D L

pure sound
28-05-2009, 12:47
I met Pierre Lurne at shows a few times & talked with him about the Goldmund products. He always said the Reference was more of an engineering showpiece and that the Studio was the serious one to have. He may have been right, the Studio always sounded excellent when I heard it (same Papst motor as in DSJR's Dual 701). I only heard a Reference once but it was still pretty good. Certainly up to the standard of a Rega Planar 2 anyway;)

Barry
28-05-2009, 14:19
Marco,


.... people also look for different things in their hi-fi. Some value imaging above all else (strange, but true) & others fall for the toe-tapping loblocks as touted by your fellow countrymen. As long as your system delivers what you want it to deliver, are you wrong?

....I remember the articles in Hi-fi Review & the Flat Response - the rag that spawned it that categorically stated that a Linn Basik cartidge made a Koetsu Black sound like a steel gramophone needle (or some such) ....... This attitude does no-one any favours.

Incidentally, those mags spent as much time flying across the room accompanied by a large quantity of swearing as they did being read, but they were sometimes quite entertaining in their own way!!

I'm one of those 'strange' people who value imaging, along with focus, detail, transient attack and lack of colouration, especially in the mid band. I can't have everything, in fact no component has it all, so we all have to make sacrifices. In my case, I forgo deep bass and the ability to achieve realistic orchestral tutti as well as suffering a restricted listening area, by way of achieving most of the other qualities. It probably explains why, along with Ali, I use electrostatic speakers and I still regard the Linn Isobaraks as the worse speakers I have ever heard. But I wholehartedly agree with your statement that the system should deliver what is right for you.

Apropos the 'Hi Fi Review' and 'Flat Response', they were the magazines that a very long time ago would have been recycled by being torn up into squares and left for convenient use in a small brick outhouse. Whatever happened to the editor of those esteemed publications?

Regards
Barry

chris@panteg
28-05-2009, 14:22
I believe he spent some time at her majesty's pleasure for something or other

Ali Tait
28-05-2009, 14:24
I do get a surprising amount of bass from the ESL III's Barry,and I'll get even more when I pick up the top model called the Acorn this weekend.These speakers are extremely good.I think the fact that they come as kits puts a lot of people off,but they really do compete with the best commercial stuff,and at a fraction of the price.

REM
28-05-2009, 15:00
Hi Neil

The poster on PFM singles out Goldmund in particular as being clearly inferior to the P2, it's obvious innit, anyone with any sense can clearly hear the superiority of the Rega in any area that matters, whatever they may be:mental:

Regards
Ralph

Spectral Morn
28-05-2009, 15:10
Hi Neil

The poster on PFM singles out Goldmund in particular as being clearly inferior to the P2, it's obvious innit, anyone with any sense can clearly hear the superiority of the Rega in any area that matters, whatever they may be:mental:

Regards
Ralph

We are all entitled to our opinions even when clearly they seem to be *odd*. I suppose the issue really is was the system these *listeners* heard the Goldmund in, right for it/was it set up correctly. Even in saying that I would still expect a badly set up (unless the cartridge was knackered/faulty) Goldmund to be better than a Plannar 2/3.....though perhaps not by as much as a fully on song one to do. We weren't there though....I am trying to be charitable....but like Marco I feel comments like this should be rejected as clearly being suspect.:lol:


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
28-05-2009, 16:30
Some value imaging above all else (strange, but true) & others fall for the toe-tapping loblocks as touted by your fellow countrymen. As long as your system delivers what you want it to deliver, are you wrong?


I'm one of those 'strange' people who value imaging, along with focus, detail, transient attack and lack of colouration, especially in the mid band.


..........I have to say I'm one of the strange ones,having imaging and soundstaging high up on the list of what engages me in hi-fi

The strangeness I refer to is no slur as I have to admit to being a little strange in this regard as well. Hence the preponderance of kit from across the pond in my system. My previous speakers did pin-point imaging like I've never heard from non-electrostatics & my current ones throw a huuuge soundstage.

Horses for courses.

Ali Tait
28-05-2009, 16:44
No worries didn't take it as such! :)

The Grand Wazoo
28-05-2009, 17:06
No worries didn't take it as such! :)

Thank God for that, I was tooling up for 'soldering guns at dawn'!
............just kiddin'

Ali Tait
28-05-2009, 17:07
Mine's hot as we speak.My WAD Pre2 is poorly :(

Barry
28-05-2009, 18:36
The strangeness I refer to is no slur as I have to admit to being a little strange in this regard as well.


No slur was implied or taken, hence my use of quotes around the word strange. This is just the sort of friendly banter that we expect and enjoy on AoS.

In the light of recent events, we don't want to feel that we are all walking on eggshells. Anyway, I am going to be busy tomorrow, helping someone set up his new cartridge and I would need to unearth my soldering iron. So sorry, no duel!

Regards
Barry

Ali Tait
28-05-2009, 18:44
Hooray fixed it! Blown a brand new cap though.Still,it's making sweet music again. :)

DSJR
28-05-2009, 19:13
Back to the Flat Response/early HiFi Review etc, I was given a load along with the cartridges including the M3D body. I honestly feel sick reading them, the ignorance and blind bias causing me great pain (was I ever this bad?????).

A Rega 2 is a great deck (and didn't cost much at one time) and so is my Dual (it's auto too...) but NEVER would I suggest that either of these is any remote competition to a "real" established turntable.. A Spacedeck (let alone a fettled Technics) would annihilate them IMO. I did compare my 701 to a Planar 3/RB300 and once warmed up I preferred the Dual just a little, as long as the cartridge doesn't tax the arm too much...

These days, I look at these extravagant and very expensive (sledgehammer to crack a walnut) concoctions without emotion, but earlier today I got quite excited looking at a pic of a 1960's Dual 1006, making me wonder if the thin ribbed rubber mat a la garrard 301 may be the best compromise over the thick and heavy jobbies.. The drive was belt to a small pulley which drove the idler - fascinating..

DSJR
28-05-2009, 19:13
Back to the Flat Response/early HiFi Review etc, I was given a load along with the cartridges including the M3D body. I honestly feel sick reading them, the ignorance and blind bias causing me great pain (was I ever this bad?????).

A Rega 2 is a great deck (and didn't cost much at one time) and so is my Dual (it's auto too...) but NEVER would I suggest that either of these is any remote competition to a "real" established turntable.. A Spacedeck (let alone a fettled Technics) would annihilate them IMO. I did compare my 701 to a Planar 3/RB300 and once warmed up I preferred the Dual just a little, as long as the cartridge doesn't tax the arm too much...

These days, I look at these extravagant and very expensive (sledgehammer to crack a walnut) concoctions without emotion, but earlier today I got quite excited looking at a pic of a 1960's Dual 1006, making me wonder if the thin ribbed rubber mat a la garrard 301 may be the best compromise over the thick and heavy jobbies.. The drive was belt to a small pulley which drove the idler - fascinating..

Mike Reed
28-05-2009, 19:21
Interesting comments re. soundstaging, imaging, etc., and electrostatics.

I recently heard a pair of Martin-Logans driven by a s/s amp, and was quite taken aback by the delicacy they imparted to a couple of CDs.

Having had moving coil speakers all my life, this was the first time I wondered if I was missing something. Although the venue, mains and ancillary kit was totally different to mine, the CDs were being played on my CDP, so I had some kind of reference.

Do 'statics use a lot of juice, and do you keep them plugged in (i.e. warmed up) 24/7? I've heard the old Quads, but that was four decades ago, but I remember being bowled over then (on classical, that is).

Ali Tait
28-05-2009, 19:45
Some say you need to warm up 57's for at least 24hrs,in fact some go as far as to say you may damage the panels if you don't warm them up first.I found my pair did seem to sound better after being on overnight,though I hesitated to do this given the age of them.The statics I run now,from ER Audio in Oz,don't require any warm-up time and sound fine from switch-on.As for power consumption,statics generally use a bias voltage of between 4 to 7 kV.This is achieved using a step-up transformer.The voltage is high,but current is very low,in the milliamps range,so power consumption is very low.Also a good reason why theoretically a direct-coupled valve amp should be a perfect match,given that valve amps are voltage rather then current devices.I'll find out if this is true soon!
As for leaving them on,I tend to leave them on at the weekend if I'm in Leeds,otherwise I leave them off and just switch on when I'm there as required.

DSJR
28-05-2009, 20:05
Quads like to be left to charge up for a good few hours, although old age may affect things somewhat. They are well insulated though, although One-Thing-Audio may feel differently, as their speciality is re-building '57's

i_should_coco
28-05-2009, 20:44
The TT bake off will certainly be interesting. I have nothing to prove and no axe to grind. I wonder what folks will make of the Io? I suspect that it on a planar 2 might be ok. :)

Barry
28-05-2009, 21:53
Interesting comments re. soundstaging, imaging, etc., and electrostatics.

I recently heard a pair of Martin-Logans driven by a s/s amp, and was quite taken aback by the delicacy they imparted to a couple of CDs.

Having had moving coil speakers all my life, this was the first time I wondered if I was missing something. Although the venue, mains and ancillary kit was totally different to mine, the CDs were being played on my CDP, so I had some kind of reference.

Do 'statics use a lot of juice, and do you keep them plugged in (i.e. warmed up) 24/7? I've heard the old Quads, but that was four decades ago, but I remember being bowled over then (on classical, that is).

To answer your last point first. All electrostatics benefit from being left powered up, just as most electronics do. However, the power supplies for electrostatic speakers consume only a minute amount of current (microamps), so won't break the bank as far as your electricity bill is concerned, or threaten the planet through global warming. Another good reason to leave them on all the time is that each time they are switched on the current 'inrush' will, with time, eventually damage the diodes in the voltage multiplier circuit.

Mine (Quad 57s) are left on all the time, even when I am away on holiday. Apart from three changes of address and a few power cuts, they have been constantly powered for the last 35 years. If it was good enough for Peter Walker, it's good enough for me.

I don't want this thread to deviate into the pros and cons of electrostatics vis a vis moving coil designs, as both have strengths and weaknesses. Suffice it to say that electrostatics work for me and if I had to replace the Quads it would either be with the new 2905 models, or something from the Martin Logan stable.

Regards

Barry

chris@panteg
28-05-2009, 22:10
The TT bake off will certainly be interesting. I have nothing to prove and no axe to grind. I wonder what folks will make of the Io? I suspect that it on a planar 2 might be ok. :)

Its a good job nobody is bringing a planar 2 'you would have stood no chance;)

mind you with the mighty LP12 there :confused:

Giant Haystacks
29-05-2009, 05:21
a hifi dealer in dublin said he was part of the whole linn niam thing one time
i think it was a live demonstration in the shop,
he said that it was lp12 and not sure of the arm but he said he was having difficulty getting the troika cartridge to sound good so it was substituded for a van den hull and was then satisfied with the sound
when the linn representitive arived he was also happy with the sound but then on closer inspection the cartridge which were both red was not the linn cartridge and suddenly the flight over started to affect his hearing and it had to be changed for the linn cartridge

Beechwoods
29-05-2009, 05:58
I personally hate hi-fi cliques of any sort, the idea that a single manufacturer can provide a complete system that will beat similarly priced, but sympathetically matched set of components from different manufacturers is nothing but brand-marketing rubbish, made worse by the upgrades forced to keep current.

I can't see what fun there is in buying a system out of a manufacturers catalogue. Especially if you get slagged off for not being true to the manufacterer's vision if you have the temerity to upgrade any of it with aftermarket mods.

Thankfully I haven't wasted any of my life so far trying to understand the different brand following tribes in this hi-fi world of ours.

myles
29-05-2009, 08:12
Live and let live - the beauty is in the ear of the beholder - one man's meat is another man's poison - I hate to see opinions which are likely to polarise opinion - what about the people who have just bought a Rega TT?
Does this smack of elitism??
I have just taken an option on a Pro-Ject Debut 3 - what's your opinion on that, just out of interest.
:cool:
I think the beauty is indeed in the ear of the beholder, Dave. I have a Planar 2 and am over the moon with it, BUT I'm not going to start comparing it to the likes of the LP12 etc.
I have noticed this type of thread (on PFM, not this one) 'dissing' the LP12 is more and more common, from the colouration, through the fact that the design was stolen from AR/Ariston, to questioning the parentage of the owners! Is it jealousy, because if not then what is the agenda? Ive never heard one, but it is regarded (as far as I see) as a standard in vinyl playback.
Back to the Rega decks, I think they can be an absolute bargain in the entry level hi-fi stakes, just change the weight and stub and you start to really appreciate what youve got (which is not an LP12!)
Dave, I think the Pro-Ject will be a great upgrade on your Sony deck, just enjoy it, and dont try to pick out its shortcomings, or else you will never be satisfied.

chris@panteg
29-05-2009, 09:40
Hi myles

i hope you did not think i was dissing the p2 or the linn for that matter ,its just some of the comments on PFM ' ridiculous statements like it outperforming a goldmund ref or an sp10 by these mostly former linn dealers' just gets my goat .

Its like Guy said ' Chris Frankland never went away.

myles
29-05-2009, 14:58
Hi myles

i hope you did not think i was dissing the p2 or the linn for that matter ,its just some of the comments on PFM ' ridiculous statements like it outperforming a goldmund ref or an sp10 by these mostly former linn dealers' just gets my goat .

Its like Guy said ' Chris Frankland never went away.

Hey, Chris, I didnt think you were dissing anything. When I commented on the 'dissing' I was aiming my comments at the PFM thread, and ones I have seen on other fora. No offence was taken, I assure you!
I know where my choice of TT sits in the feudal system of analogue playback. Anybody who comments that a P2 will outplay most TTs, however, is unfortunately deluded. My budget dictates how much of a 'player' I am, and a £62 deck is the level I am at. I have tried to help it punch above its weight, with the RB300 weight and stub, and I was kindly donated an acrylic platter, both which made a difference to the sound.
Just enjoy the music, thats my attitude.

DSJR
29-05-2009, 19:51
It's a shame that RD & co can't get hold of a P2 for the day (I think there's a Rega dealer or two within twenty miles of his location..).

A recurring thing on the PFM thread is the suggestion that all the competition had fair hearing on dems. To be honest, very few of the genuinely better decks ever found their way into Linn dealers I suspect, although we had the Elite Rock which was excellent IMO and HiFi Dave had the NAS decks. The real ice-breaker came with the huge Linn "dealer purge" which opened up many of the ex-Linn dealers to valid alternatives (I genuinely can't remember what we replaced the LP12 with, although I suspect a lot of Naim CDS's would have been sold instead).

chris@panteg
29-05-2009, 20:16
Hi Dave
I find your posts very interesting and fascinating insight to what was going on during the turntable wars ' i always felt Linn we very keen to get rid of the PT in particular.

Arthur K was always a thorn in there side 'and i well remember the Pink link outrage at Linn towers, these recent threads have been fascinating to me
especially as an ex LP12 user myself ' it takes me right back to 1989-90 when it reached its peak the lingo and Frankland fall over himself.

DSJR
29-05-2009, 20:44
PT shot themselves in the foot with truly dire constructional quality in the early days. Reliability was no great shakes either I'm informed by one who tried to sell them at the time... The Roksan was the main serious competitor I think, looking back.

I feel so old now - my memories of this time before you lot know what HiFi and audio is all about ;) The best era for me was the early eighties before the KEF drive units in Linn's speakers went off the boil, when the LP12 almost stood alone in its uniqueness, 1981 when I had my Linn chip inserted and 1983 when, on another trip to Glasgow, I made some LP12's and Kans and heard The Blue Nile on master tape for the first time (fuggin' awsome, even through 'briks :D)

Spectral Morn
29-05-2009, 21:33
PT shot themselves in the foot with truly dire constructional quality in the early days. Reliability was no great shakes either I'm informed by one who tried to sell them at the time... The Roksan was the main serious competitor I think, looking back.

Sadly the Roksan had its problems too, such as a sagging top plate (quite a common problem). Dave's right about the early Pink TTs very poor fit and finish but they sounded good. However for me the best deck at the time (same price point as Roksan and the Pink Triangle) was the Voyd Valdi...stunning TT, with fabulous sound and beautiful build and looks...I wish I had not sold mine.



and heard The Blue Nile on master tape for the first time (fuggin' awsome, even through 'briks :D)

Blue Nile are the best thing ever to come out of the Linn thing. Saw them live last year WOW...one of the best gigs I have ever been to....stunning.


Regards D S D L

hifi_dave
29-05-2009, 22:18
I really don't think the PT ever came close to being a 'threat' to Linn, they simply didn't sell enough. Ditto the Valdi, though that was at least, reliable. I think the only one that gave the LP12 a run for it's money was the Roksan but even that sold only in relatively low volumes compared to the LP12.

Things are different now. The LP12 is ridiculously expensive and there are so many good alternatives, many of which are far less expensive. The LP12 is still very popular but mainly due to the s/hand market.

Marco
29-05-2009, 23:37
Hi Dave (not DSJR - I'll reply to your posts later, matey) :),

Things are different now because people are beginning to wake up and smell the coffee and discover what SP10s, SL-1200/1210s, Garrards, Pioneers, Denons, etc, are really capable of now that the Linn mafia no longer dominate the British turntable market.

The above were neither exported in great quantity to the UK and/or were reported as 'junk' by influential sections of the hi-fi press and dealers in order to influence the buying public and line certain people's pockets!

This dogmatic and biased way of thinking is unfortunately still ingrained in the psyche of some 'audiophiles' and dealers today - and the fanbois, although lacking in numbers compared to the 'heyday' of 'flat earth' nonsense, still lap it up and empty their wallets like subservient puppets chasing an unobtainable goal.

However, the less blinkered amongst us are slowly but surely beginning to see the light, and I would love to see the day in the UK when discerning audiophiles/music lovers are using a high quality direct-drive unit as their turntable of choice, instead of the flimsy, low-mass, belt-drive creations which currently dominate the UK market, particularly at the budget end.

P2s "destroying" SP10s indeed! :mental:

I will use whatever influence AOS has to help make that happen, and trust me, there are plans in the pipeline elsewhere, which I can't discuss at the moment, where the whole 'D/D story' will be sold on a grand scale to the very people who are currently walking away from shops with Regas, Pro-jects, Linns, Roksans, Michells, etc.

You can see it slowly happening on forums with more and more people selling the above and investing in the likes of a modified SL-1210 - and believe me that trend will continue to grow...

Here's to the future and 'one in the eye' for the blinkered, deluded, 'flat-earthers' of this world! :ner: :eyebrows:

Marco.

P.S I will address some earlier points made later. Right now, it's back to listening to music through my rather nice new speakers :gig:

chris@panteg
30-05-2009, 00:08
Well marco

Speaking as a former flat earther well sort of ' now a convert to the 1210 i for one will never use a wibbly wobbly belt drive again.

The one thing that has truly shocked me about my 1210 especially with the time step
is how well it performs with classical music 'this has truly amazed me in fact i can say i have never enjoyed classical as much as i do now and have some great mercury recordings which i treasure.

The die hard Linn fanbois will never change though ' leave em to it i say.

Marco
30-05-2009, 10:35
Chris,

A modified SL-1200/1210 (or SP10), fitted with a high quality arm and cartridge, reveals what's on the record with as little artifice as possible - it's as simple as that. It's this lack of 'signature' that good D/Ds have which fanbois seeking a 'flavour' superimposed onto their music (a la LP12, etc) find as 'unmusical'.

Our mutual friend RD gets it spot on with this comment in reference to the 'ol fruitbox:


All I can say is what it does wrong can be addictive, I call it artifice. If you get hooked on it then that is all you look for and nothing makes that sound like a Linn.


That's it in a nutshell.

There's nothing wrong with this, but it's their dismissing of direct-drive turntables as lacking in 'musicality' which rips my knitting, when quite simply this lack of 'musicality' is simply that their favoured brand of euphonic coloration is missing.

The most 'musical' sounding turntable is by definition that which extracts the most information from the record as accurately as possible, and with the minimum amount of sonic signature imposed on the signal - it's as simple as that. 'Musical' is hearing more of the music!

What I'd like the fawning fanbois to acknowledge is: 'we know our LP12s are coloured sounding, but we love them all the same', instead of attempting to portray the LP12 as being somehow 'musically superior' to other T/Ts, which are undeniably more accurate.

I would have no problem whatsoever with that! Do you think it will ever happen? :confused:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
30-05-2009, 10:46
Do you think it will ever happen? :confused:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/littlebritain/images/396/kenny_craig1.jpg
Only if this guy gets a hold of them....."Look into the eyes the eyes...your under. The Linn LP12 is not the only way to play vinyl. It is coloured and while enjoyable not very accurate. Repeat after me.....I will not part with anymore of my money to fix a problem that apparently never existed. How can perfection be improved? You will be cured oh yes you will"::lol::lolsign:


Regards D S D L

chris@panteg
30-05-2009, 10:56
Thats Quality Neil LOL

Marco spot on there i could not agree more

DSJR
30-05-2009, 11:19
Can you guys imagine and re-wind back to the post-hippy generation like mine. In 1976, I was ninteen and interested mainly in "prog" and rock music by the likes of Genesis, Pink Floyd, Gong (and Steve Hillage as a solo entity), Led Zeppelin, Yes and ELP (amongst many others) and jazz/rock by the likes of Isotope, Brand X, Billy Cobham and Mahavishnu Orchestra and, my favourite genre when I really NEED music, the whole "Electronic" range from Tangerine Dream to Vangelis, Ashra and Klaus Shulze etc.. "Classical" music rarely or never came into it!

The LP12 made the LP's by these people sound bouncy and "musical," especially the US jazzy LP's which were cut with too much middle frequencies, sounding lean and bright on a modern turntable system. The Supex I'm having fun with has a broad dip in the midband too, throwing the sound back behind the speakers.

One thing I really regret about these times was that all the decent speakers were sidelined in preference to the Linn abominations, which were very clear on the one hand, but hideously coloured and unnatural in balance with it. IMFs, big Monitor Audios and Celefs, let alone the improved (after the HPD series) Tannoys were all ignored in preference to the 'Brik, which was judged the only biggish speaker worth bothering with. Rogers, Harbeth and Spendor carried on as best they could, although the sad passing of Spencer Hughes affected the latter severely in my view (Spencer knew and seemed to understand what the "dark side" was doing, but couldn't severely modify his existing products as their design was set in stone. Had he lived though.........).

Fortunately, speaker companies like Spendor and Harbeth continue, the latter with a very firm business strategy I understand and Quad is still making good electrostatic speakers which develop, rather than evolve, the ESL 63 idea IMO. Celef lives on in Pro-Ac, who's speakers tend to need huge rooms to prevent boom.

One final comment on speakers. Marco has just all but replaced his SP100's. I wish he had the chance to hear the Harbeth 40.1's at home, as this model may give the best of both the SP100 and the old Tannoy.

Marco
30-05-2009, 11:29
Nice one, Neil! :eyebrows:

I fear though that nothing short of complete neuropsychological reprogramming would cure matters!!

Perhaps you could have a word with Davros? ;)

Marco.

Marco
30-05-2009, 11:39
Dave,

I 'get' the nostalgia thing, but I'm afraid that doesn't excuse the blinkered and misguided ramblings of the LP12 fanbois.

Sensible and intelligent people learn from their experiences, and thus their thought processes and opinions evolve as a result... Some of these guys still appear to be stuck in 1976! I'm sorry, but I have no time for dinosaurs that are too stubborn to embrace change.


One final comment on speakers. Marco has just all but replaced his SP100's. I wish he had the chance to hear the Harbeth 40.1's at home, as this model may give the best of both the SP100 and the old Tannoy.


Yep, I've always rated the big Harbeths, but I'm firmly a vintage Tannoyista user now - nothing else will do :)


Marco.

Spectral Morn
30-05-2009, 11:46
Nice one, Neil! :eyebrows:

I fear though that nothing short of complete neuropsychological reprogramming would cure matters!!

Perhaps you could have a word with Davros? ;)

Marco.


How about....
http://www.twilightguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/brainwashed.gif :lol::lol::lol::lolsign:


However after a little thought Davros hires a central London location to offer a cure to all the Linn LP12 afflicted.....
http://blogs.sundaymercury.net/anorak-city/Davros_05edit2%20copy-thumb-450x299.jpg
However the cure offered, would be fairly permanent....
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/JourneysEndDavrosGun.jpg

Regards D S D L

Marco
30-05-2009, 11:50
:D

:crowd:

:bum:

Marco.

DSJR
30-05-2009, 19:05
Stavros, who's he?

I prefer the Yarvelling and Zolfian "Chronicles" genesis myself...............

Marco
30-05-2009, 19:27
My name ees Stavros - hello everyboody peeps. I sell de kebabs to all de peeps in London, but not to that loadsamoney bloke, he a total fuckwitmuthashammikebabeejit...

Marco.

Joe
30-05-2009, 20:05
What I'd like the fawning fanbois to acknowledge is 'we know our LP12s are coloured sounding, but we love them all the same', instead of attempting to portray the LP12 as being somehow 'musically superior' to other T/Ts, which are undeniably more accurate.

I would have no problem whatsoever with that! Do you think it will ever happen? :confused:

Marco.

Nah. There's still people out there who believe in astrology and such, so clinging to belief in the superiority of a much-loved old T/T isn't particularly difficult to understand. It does no-one any harm AFAICS.

Spectral Morn
30-05-2009, 23:28
Stavros, who's he?

I prefer the Yarvelling and Zolfian "Chronicles" genesis myself...............

And that comment rocketed over most peoples heads......;) I will have to have a read of the TV21 material now it is on line.


Regards D S D L

Marco
30-05-2009, 23:38
TV21 material? Wossat all about then? :scratch: :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
30-05-2009, 23:46
TV21 material? Wossat all about then? :scratch: :)

Marco.

Terrence Dicks the writer behind most of the best early Dr Who stories (who also created The Daleks) created a back story which ran in a magazine called Tv21. It was a comic strip exclusively about the Daleks and (the good Dr is no where to be seen) and follows what are called The Dalek Chronicles. Early history of The Dals and Tharls the two indigenous races on Skaro. The origin story is totally different to that in Genesis of the Daleks (Dr who story with Tom Baker) which introduced Davros as being the creator of the Daleks and the Dalek race being called Kaleds rather than Dals. Corect me if I am wrong on any of this Dave.

:offtopic: :lol:

Normal service is now resumed....



Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
31-05-2009, 00:08
............but, Neil. It's only pretend, mate!

Spectral Morn
31-05-2009, 00:37
............but, Neil. It's only pretend, mate!


Marco....did ask.....:doh::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Regards D S D L

DSJR
31-05-2009, 09:15
Not Terrence Dicks, but David Whittaker my dear chap.....:) David wrote both "Power" and "Evil" of the Daleks and it was he who wrote the TV21 back page stories my son and I love so much. These were scanned and put into a bound volume, but I don't know if it's still in print.

Terry Nation created the Dalek "concept" and a BBC designer by the name of Ray Cusick designed the shape we know and love. As a BBC designer, I believe he received £250 for his trouble and nothing more, despite promises from Terry Nation.

Amazing what you pick up from video and DVD releases :D

Talk about fanbois.........................

Spectral Morn
31-05-2009, 09:22
Not Terrence Dicks, but David Whittaker my dear chap.....:) David wrote both "Power" and "Evil" of the Daleks and it was he who wrote the TV21 back page stories my son and I love so much. These were scanned and put into a bound volume, but I don't know if it's still in print.

Terry Nation created the Dalek "concept" and a BBC designer by the name of Ray Cusick designed the shape we know and love.

Talk about fanbois.........................

I sit corrected :doh:.....I think there are a few hear who worry about us.:mental::lol::lol::lol:

I have never really given the TV21 material a serious look because it has been out of print for years and not particularly easy to get/find. However it is now on the net [though not all of it] (http://ganolan.users.btopenworld.com/Chronicles/chronicles.htm) so easy enough to read (I just haven't got round to it). The bound volume is alas out of print and I have looked for it.....:(


Regards D S D L

Marco
31-05-2009, 09:23
It's all new to me this, but it's intriguing so I might check it out :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
31-05-2009, 09:31
It's all new to me this, but it's intriguing so I might check it out :)

Marco.


Usually thread drift isn't galactic in size........:lol::lol::lol:


Regards D S D L

DSJR
31-05-2009, 16:11
"This is not a Troika!!!

EXTERMINATE THE INTRUDER!!!!"

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0430-1.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0431.jpg

Marco
31-05-2009, 16:15
Brilliant!!

How's it going with the 1950s reject, anyway - and I don't mean you! :lol:

Marco.

DSJR
31-05-2009, 18:31
Charmin'! ;)

I was thinking of starting another thread on this...

The Dual isn't the best turntable for this kind of cartridge, although I've been stunned just how good it sounds with it and will use it on the Techie/R200 when I get this set up.

I discovered a couple of Supex 900E's and went over to this, still using the Ortofon T5's and Croft preamp, comparing this old Linnie stalwart with the Stilton (?) OC9 and MC30 Super.

With all three MC's, there was distortion on loud bits which I put down to the arm, the setup and the 1970's LP's I've been playing, especially with the OC9, despite the tip looking good.

I changed back to the AVI preamp with in-built phono stage and although the sound went a bit bassier and "thicker," not what I want with the BC2's, all the distortion disappeared.

The question is this Marco and friends. Has the Croft got a low overload on the phono input, or is it that the supplied (not necessarily from Glenn) ECC83's in the phono stage are shagged? As MC's can go out well beyond 20KHz, is the mush coming off the Dual with these overloading the pre at supersonic frequencies? Switching back to FM or the CD player completely cures this (I still rate the sound of CD and am still happy listening to it).

The supplied ECC83's in the Croft phono amp say just that on the glass, with no other label suggesting manufacturer. If I need to replace them, what make do you guys suggest at a reasonable price (I just cannot afford rare and expensive ones) and would a rugged Mil Spec varient be better for microphony etc? I'm thrilled with the transformation wrought by the JAN 5841A's in the line stage and that continues to sound great. Perhaps if Matt O'D is reading this, he could make some enquiries?????

Never had this problem with a Naim 72 fed with a Troika....... Maybe it left its mark on the LP's I'm now trying to play ;)..............

hifi_dave
31-05-2009, 22:12
DSJR,
Not sure what is wrong with your Croft but I do know that it shouldn't overload. So, it's not a design fault, more like a fault, fault. :doh:

Marco
31-05-2009, 22:29
Hi Dave (DSJR),

This needs a new thread, so if you start one (I would suggest in the D.I.Y room, so all the guys there like Leo will see it and be on-hand to help). I'll go through your queries individually tomorrow. I agree with Hi-fi Dave, though; that doesn't sound like normal behaviour for a Croft - I certainly don't get this problem with my CX.

Glad you're loving the M3D. Just wait until you fit it on a more appropriate arm!

Marco.

DSJR
01-06-2009, 08:35
Back to Linn fanbois.

Have you noticed how all the speel on the forums has been regarding ancient decks. I don't know if many, if any, owners of new or recently purchased examples are contributing to any of this, but as I rarely if ever visit the Naim forum.

By the way Marco, the person recommending the Planar 2 over all sorts of exotica rates Naim NBL's as his all time favourite speaker IIRC. Says it all really.................;)

Marco
01-06-2009, 09:24
Dave, I think that the most recent examples of the LP12 sound more 'accurate' and 'CD-like', but I don't see the point because if you like the particular way that the LP12 colours music then why attempt to remove this character from the signal?

Therefore, if you want the 'classic' LP12 sound, you'll do no better than a Valhalla'd mid-80s model fitted with an Ittok/Karma (or Troika), or even better, a Grace/Supex, in conjunction with 'old-style' Naim amps and, say, a pair of Isobariks.

All this new stuff is designed to remove the very 'magic' (although I wouldn't call it that) which the (genuine) fanbois love. The fact is, the LP12 *is* a fundamentally flawed design, so no amount of dicking around with Keels, and all the other nonsense, is going to fix the unfixable, so to speak. All you're doing is applying a sticking plaster to a problem which needs radical surgery.

To 'fix' the LP12, you'd have to scrap the whole lot and start again with a direct-drive mechanism, which Ivor is already on record as saying he would have done had things been different. That last point should resonate significantly in the consciousness of the fanbois, but for some reason is either conveniently ignored, or flies over the top of their heads!! :doh:

With regard to 'Dave' on pfm, I normally find his contributions to be worthy and pretty sensible, but the P2 remark was just utter lunacy. I'm quite surprised at him actually - I've no idea where that nonsense came from.

NBLs? I rate them in the context of full Naim system, where they do a certain job very well (if you like that sort of thing), but they are without doubt specifically tailored to suit the 'olive' Naim amps of the day, and so not really my cup of tea. I prefer something which is less coloured, certainly in terms of the way music is presented.

Marco.

chris@panteg
01-06-2009, 10:02
There is a question in my mind ' regarding these new Radikal/urika upgrades.

You see i have noticed some comments from prospective buyers that when comparing their own deck ' top spec with Keel etc ' with the new upgraded version , i read comments like the Radikal LP12 makes my deck sound ordinary ' flat ' lifeless ' boring , this makes me wonder about the flaws of the deck which has been much debated about recently .

But if i still had my LP12 these comments would worry me ' if the difference was so huge there must be something wrong with the design in the 1st place.:scratch:

Spectral Morn
01-06-2009, 10:18
"This is not a Troika!!!

EXTERMINATE THE INTRUDER!!!!"

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0430-1.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0431.jpg


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Its nice to be not the only :mental:;) here on AOS.


Regards D S D L

Marco
01-06-2009, 10:25
Chris,

Most LP12s I've heard do sound 'flat and lifeless' in comparison to what I'm used to - even a fully Keeled, Radikal'd, Urika'd one I heard at a dealer's recently, fitted with an Ekos SE and a DV Te Kaitora!

It was 'ok' but I can assure you nothing special, so goodness knows what some of these people were listening to before :confused: :eyebrows:


if the difference was so huge there must be something wrong with the design in the 1st place


Of course there is... 'Low-mass', suspended belt-drives with puny motor mechanisms are, like I said, fundamentally flawed in the first place, and no amount of sticking plasters applied will ever cure the inherent problems. If you like a warm, coloured, 'phat' sound with mid-bass emphasis, that wavers all over the place due to fluctuating speed stability, and the pitch and timing problems that go with it (in comparison to a good direct-drive T/T), then buy an LP12 without hesitation!!

Marco.

chris@panteg
01-06-2009, 11:33
Yes indeed Marco

My main point is how some LP12 owners feel about this ' some are buying without hesitation, others even those who can afford it are now giving serious thoughts of committing heresy .

I still say a Garrard SP25 fitted with a koetsu red on a good day with the wind behind it
will give the Radikal LP12 a run for its money:smoking:

REM
01-06-2009, 15:56
There is a question in my mind ' regarding these new Radikal/urika upgrades.

You see i have noticed some comments from prospective buyers that when comparing their own deck ' top spec with Keel etc ' with the new upgraded version , i read comments like the Radikal LP12 makes my deck sound ordinary ' flat ' lifeless ' boring , this makes me wonder about the flaws of the deck which has been much debated about recently .

But if i still had my LP12 these comments would worry me ' if the difference was so huge there must be something wrong with the design in the 1st place.:scratch:

It's all part of Linns' marketing strategy cunning devised by IT all those years ago. Of course your existing deck doesn't sound any different after you've heard the new 'upgrade' but the way it's presented to you is designed to make you dissatisfied with your existing deck and remember you selected yourself for this manipulation by booking the dem of the latest 'improvements' in the first place. I got into the Linn thing in the 80's but frankly after hearing the Cirkus 'upgrade' I began questioning the whole thing. To me the LP12 post Cirkus just isn't a Linn, ok I will happily admit that a 'classic' Linn may not be the most neutral of things but they were bloody good, highly rewarding/involving things to listen to, yes I was addicted!! The Lingo never did much for me either IMHO the 'geddon was much better, more 'proper' LP12 like.
You might not like the old LP12 (and I'm so glad I got off the merry go round, believe me) but you've got to admire Ivor's marketing skills, if he was half as good an engineer as he was psychologist then perhaps the old fruitbox might have sounded as good as Linn made it out to be.

Marco
01-06-2009, 16:03
Great post, Ralph. I concur completely!

Marco.

DSJR
01-06-2009, 16:37
One thing that may stand me out I suppose, is that Linn have access to top quality analogue and digital masters at their facility and that comparing a mid eighties pre-Cirkus LP12 with Ittok and Troika with these masters was totally fruitless (well, fruitful in the case of the LP12) as the above LP12 system was so much worse and VERY far removed from the original source tape - The Blue Nile ones were 1/2" and 30IPS as I recall, with NO Dolby either, just the playback machine, four test tones to line up to as I recall and then straight to the cutter head with short cables and only the pre-RIAA equalisation to go through IIRC.

I'm certain that Linn would have used these masters as a reference when deciding on the later upgrades and I must say that the Lingo and Cirkus did make the LP12 better behaved in the bass. To me, the later LP12 IS "simply better," but they have a huge amount of ground to catch up.

The problem with lovers of the old LP12 sound is that they have speakers with no or little bass, a peaked up midrange, a hole at the crossover point and a fizzy, humped up treble (a typical old Royd or Rega, or any ealy to mid eighties Linn squeaker). Any "neutral" source (tope end turntable system, CD or tuner) will make systems like this scream - no wonder these bods hate CD and don't like the later LP12's...

The thing is fella's, well produced, cut and pressed LP's CAN mimic the source master very well and I proved this to myself in my Mentor/Decca days. I just think the LP12 has got a long way to go and the ARO/Geddon version is only part way there IMO... What the eighties fanbois say is not necessarily what Ivor himself says (in offguarded moments) ;)

I can't help it if I worked for one of Linn's biggest dealers in the eighties - Linn had a London flat just above our main shop too, and we did get to know the old team really well (Ivor, Charlie, Martin D, Martin McH, Iain Tennant, John Burns, the "Toothpaste Twins" - real gents all and all dispersed elsewhere within the industry now..).

pure sound
01-06-2009, 19:01
If the gulf between the masters and the mid 80's LP12 was so vast (& I can well believe it would have been) how did they spin this to you when you were there? Just by saying that the LP12 was still closer to their master than anything else would be?

The Grand Wazoo
01-06-2009, 19:09
how did they spin this to you when you were there? Just by saying that the LP12 was still closer to their master than anything else would be?

Ha!
That's exactly the question I was going to ask! So, spill the beans, guvnor.

DSJR
02-06-2009, 09:21
I said, "God, that sounds crap!"

Answer - "Yeah, vinyl IS crap, but our crap is better than everyone elses crap!............"

True, honest! - and if he remembers, I have a witness to that statement as well....

speakers-1989
09-06-2009, 20:15
Pinkfish media is something else.

DSJR
09-06-2009, 20:18
It is indeed Shane. Can we keep it that way please??? :)

Marco
09-06-2009, 20:30
Shane, I trust you mean that in a complimentary sense :)

Marco.

speakers-1989
09-06-2009, 20:32
Is Richard Dunn (NVA) also a member on here?

Marco
09-06-2009, 20:34
He's currently a banned ex-member, but that situation may be getting reviewed shortly... We're gluttons for punishment! :eyebrows:

Marco.

DSJR
09-06-2009, 20:47
It all starts to fit into place LOL!

I blow hot and cold over the old fruitbox. Having sold and set up hundreds over the years (when I counted, it was...), one gets sort of complacent about its abilities with some records. What really gets my goat is now, when the tooling costs must have been paid for many times over (and profits from this fed all the other projects and products they've inflicted on us over the decades ;)) the prices for all the recent upgrades are through the roof.

Despite SME making the Keel for them (apparently), it shouldn't sell for more than £500 IMO, as there's no platter and bearing with it. Four SL1200's at retail price for one Keel...... The Ekos SE doesn't *look* £3K worth - I'd rather have a hand made Audio Origami PU7 at that price I think - in gold.... As for the new internal phono stage and motor, someone has already costed the motor out at a hundred quid or so tops..

Interesting thought though, LVV arms, the scourge of many Linnies, sell for £100 these days. What are these idiots thinking of?

hifi_dave
10-06-2009, 16:24
He's currently a banned ex-member, but that situation may be getting reviewed shortly... We're gluttons for punishment! :eyebrows:

Marco.

The viral marketing King. Do you really need the aggression and rudeness ?

bigmoog
01-07-2009, 07:43
To answer the original question: { Linn 'fanbois': blinkered, deluded, brainwashed or just deaf? }


yes, yes, yes and yes (and I used to own two LP12s...)


a Dinn LP12 is only any good when you flog it on, as its Krap

and their electronics...do they actually listen to music through them?

the CD12 was quite nice tho'


how I miss the totalitarian oligarchy of the Dinn/Laim axis


right Im off to read my copies of 'The Flat Response and Hifi Review...'


all the above is my opinion based on years of listening, ownership and common sense...apologies ahead of flames

WikiBoy
01-07-2009, 09:12
*post now deleted*

Is this the sort of personal insult that is acceptable on a public forum? Plus it was to someone who had no right of reply - a court of law would not look on this very kindly.

But at least now I can comment on it, thank you for that.

DSJR
01-07-2009, 16:07
Dinn and Laim and Krap - love it :lol:

Don't know if you've stopped the inhalation of noxious smokey things now you've been so ill BM, but it's a bit like an ex-smoker detesting the smell and the use of fags and cigars I understand.

Speaking as an ex- "Dinn/Laim" owner *and worse, SELLER [booo!]* of the stuff, having heard various sound files posted elsewhere of tracks using these turntables and modified phono stages still using the same circuits and heavy filtering, all I can say is that even compared to my ancient lash-up with a DIRECT DRIVE turntable, they are missing so much of the music at the expense of added prat factor.

I dunno, a £2,500 motor "upgrade" to an existing £3,000 worth to get the sound almost as good as an £1,100 Spacedeck (apologies Richard, I haven't had the pleasure of a PL71 as yet).

WikiBoy
01-07-2009, 16:47
(apologies Richard, I haven't had the pleasure of a PL71 as yet).

Your welcome any time to pop down, it is not that far.

I will make an extra place at the bake-off if you fancy it.

bigmoog
01-07-2009, 17:10
Dinn and Laim and Krap - love it :lol:

Don't know if you've stopped the inhalation of noxious smokey things now you've been so ill BM, but it's a bit like an ex-smoker detesting the smell and the use of fags and cigars I understand.

Speaking as an ex- "Dinn/Laim" owner *and worse, SELLER [booo!]* of the stuff, having heard various sound files posted elsewhere of tracks using these turntables and modified phono stages still using the same circuits and heavy filtering, all I can say is that even compared to my ancient lash-up with a DIRECT DRIVE turntable, they are missing so much of the music at the expense of added prat factor.

I dunno, a £2,500 motor "upgrade" to an existing £3,000 worth to get the sound almost as good as an £1,100 Spacedeck (apologies Richard, I haven't had the pleasure of a PL71 as yet).



imagine someone getting into good analogue replay...he/she is shown a currently fully 'loaded' LP12 - you know....urika, bazooka, varuka...15 grand all in (engineering value around 100 notes)......all into a skip..


prat indeed


ps, I owned two LP12s not because they were any good, but because I could:lolsign:


opinion only........

speakers-1989
01-07-2009, 18:32
{Edited}

Beechwoods
01-07-2009, 18:43
c'mon on chaps, let's not needle each other...

Marco
01-07-2009, 18:59
Indeed... Shane, come on now mate. Everyone deserves another chance.

Marco.

speakers-1989
01-07-2009, 19:12
Indeed... Shane, come on now mate. Everyone deserves another chance.

Marco.


''Everyone deserves another chance''

I agree:)

DSJR
01-07-2009, 20:15
Even me, and that's only because I own and use a Croft preamp, an M3D and a Technics turntable (even if it isn't *thee* one :lol:)

Marco
01-07-2009, 20:50
Yeah but you haven't had the 'special initiation' yet. Can you bark like a dog, bubba? :lol:

Marco.

WikiBoy
01-07-2009, 21:04
Quote - ''Everyone deserves another chance''

I am not interested in another chance if I have this guy baiting me.

Is this all this forum has dropped to !

Marco
01-07-2009, 21:08
No!

Now, pretty please, can we have some hi-fi contributions? :)

Since you've come back you've been in a worse mood than my mother! :lol:

Can I bring my modded Techy to your bake-off, for instance - is there any room left at the inn? ;)

Marco.

Marco
01-07-2009, 21:31
Why have you removed my post and not post #97 remove that...


Done. Now can we get with the programme? :)

Marco.

speakers-1989
01-07-2009, 21:36
Marco, I want your vintage Tannoy speakers:gig:

Marco
01-07-2009, 21:41
You'd have to sh*g me first! :lol:

Not sure you're quite *that* keen :eyebrows:

Marco.

speakers-1989
01-07-2009, 21:47
You'd have to sh*g me first! :lol:

Not sure you're quite *that* keen :eyebrows:

Marco.


You dirty bastard:lol::lolsign:

Marco
01-07-2009, 22:53
Everyone tells me I'm a bad boy, but I'm not really! ;)

Marco.

Peter Stockwell
02-07-2009, 06:32
I was thinking about the relative costs of a new maxed out LP12 and a platine verdier. Correct me If I'm wrong, but I think that the Linn is twice as expensive. Of course i've not heard the "new" linn, but I just can't help thinking they are taking the piss.

chris@panteg
02-07-2009, 07:59
Hi Peter

Well its like Dave said ' all that money Radikal ' Urika ' etc and you get something nearly as good as a Spacedeck .

I vividly remember after taking the momentous step of selling my maxed out Linn (at the time) and then looking to buy a new turntable i went to Kevin Scott's with a couple of friends for the day .

He had set up a Spacedeck with a SME 310 and Music Maker into the Art Audio pre and the Border Patrol 300b amp and a pair of Avatar's .

We listened to some Classical and Jazz and i thought Jeepers this is in a different league
to my LP12 , i so very nearly bought this combo but i had been offered 1st refusal on a Voyd .5 but i think i would have been very happy with the Spacdeck.

Are Linn taking the piss ' well here is another point (IMHO) whenever linn introduce an upgrade they always make it out to be a big improvement' not just the Radikal but in reality its quite a modest subtle difference in most cases .

I am 100% certain if i was to listen to the Latest maxed out LP12 it would sound typically like an LP12 just a little bit better ,
if you like the LP12 and have say an Ittok or older Ekos i would say leave it as it is and just find a nice cart .

Chris
02-07-2009, 08:12
if you like the LP12 and have say an Ittok or older Ekos i would say leave it as it is and just find a nice cart .

That´s what I did in the end - changing my 103Pro for a Troika (Esco). - I´m very happy with the results.
I must say, I think the LP12 deserves a bit more respect - people calling it "the old fruit box" sounds a bit like "wish I hadn´t got rid"- why not let those of us who don´t or can´t (through distance as is my case) appreciate the finer details of the souped up 1210s etc. get on with it.

Marco
02-07-2009, 08:52
I think that's a fair point, Chris. It's something I'd be more than willing to do.

The problem, however, is reading the immeasurable amount of drivel on forums, written by fanbois, where the LP12 is lauded as being the only T/T capable of 'playing a tune', and resisting the temptation to burst the bubble! ;)

You're much more 'grounded' in that respect, as are a few of my friends who use LP12s, so it's just water off a duck's back to you guys. Besides the people I know love their 'fruitbox' for what it is, and don't claim it to be what it’s not...which is precisely the crux of the matter being discussed.

Have you run-in your Troika yet? :)

Marco.

bigmoog
02-07-2009, 09:50
here are my top ten all time adequate Dinn components


in no particular order

1.the LP12 motor unit (platter, top plate, motor, bearing etc) as sold without the plinth etc back in the 70's, that way you could put it in a better class of rosenut
2.ittok, maybe
3.ekos, possibly...
4.troika (when retipped and 'fettled', still bettered by the K9.....)
5.CD12 (almost justifies itself)
6.Arist*n RD11
7.K9, purely for its product name
8.Axis (mainly because Rough Trade records used one in their store for listening to records prior to purchase)
9. Dinn Kan, (Cant would be more appropriate)
10. HifiReview ( 'the PT anniversary just doesnt seem to set up and bounce like the reference linn'......'we had two LP12s with identical aros'........ian rankin 'reviews'....zzzzzzzzzzzzz)



:smoking:


[only my opinion, based on opinion ]

Marco
02-07-2009, 10:12
I thought the Kremlin tuner was half-decent, too, as was the Karik/Numerik transport & DAC combo. I also have a penchant for the rather 'fruity' bass of the actively-driven Keltiks, digging those 'racetrack' drivers :)

The Linn product range went through a bit of a 'purple patch' in the early to mid 90s (when the above products were born), but since then the purple patch has coagulated into a mushy grey.

Marco.

Primalsea
02-07-2009, 11:33
Dare I say it but could the LP12 be a bit like a DL103??

Marmite of hifi??

Some people just slag them off, others will stand by them till death.

DSJR
02-07-2009, 11:47
The sound files on PFM have shown that when you get above a Rega 3, the differences in turntables (real terms) start to close up quite substantially.

I may call the LP12 a "fruitbox," but in its heyday it WAS - quite audibly when compared to master-tape (yes, I did this comparison up at Linn no less). To be fair, most of the mods Linn have carried out in recent years have been to improve on this factor and make the thing easier to set up - and STAY that way!!!!! The current top LP12 system seems to be very good indeed, but it's still three times the price of a NAS Dias with any £2000ish arm and £1000 cartridge and I'm going to stick me neck out again and say that the NAS combination is at least as good (I bet Marco could live with one, despite the SP10 looming closer and closer and closer)

No, the disrespect that comes the LP12's way is mainly due to trumped up claims for it and the wailing of the fanbois, especially those that don't even like the glued up sub-chassis, let alone the Cirkus and Keel...

You know, one day, before I shuffle off this mortal coil, it wouldn't surprise me to have another go with a late LP12. It's not as if I can't set the bloody thing up properly (I had VERY good training [grin]) and the current ones are about the best that this Vilchur (spelling?) inspired design can get without a total re-design from the ground up....... It makes sh*tty LP's sound musical and enjoyable and does the same for superbly recorded and pressed material too. The problem for me in the past (Lingo 2/Geddon Cirkus but pre-Keel) has been that all pressings tend to be made to sound the same when they're not at all like that.......

Marco
02-07-2009, 12:12
Hi Paul,


Dare I say it but could the LP12 be a bit like a DL103??

Marmite of hifi??

Some people just slag them off, others will stand by them till death.


I see where you're coming from, but the crucial difference is that the DL-103 is a device which punches well above its weight, sonically, (when suitably partnered and set-up properly), and thus offers very high sound-per-pound value, whereas an LP12 bought new (unquestionably it is a decent second-hand buy), offers the complete opposite in terms of SPPV! ;)

On the subject of Linn, I know someone who retired an Akiva for a DL-160, and considers it as one of the best things he's ever done to his (all-Linn) system - and he's not alone! Therefore, it's not only the DL-103 that achieves this 'cult' status. Too many people in hi-fi fall in love with 'badges', are seduced by romantic nonsense, or brainwashed by unscrupulous people with commercial interests or some other form of (often hidden) bias.

I have no particular urge to "slag off" the LP12; merely to dispel some of the hot air spouted by the so-called 'cognoscenti', and perhaps help people make a more informed choice.

Others and I (certainly on this forum) only "stand by" the 103 for the reasons I've outlined, and because we genuinely feel that it is a true 'giant-killer', and thus a worthy contender as a high quality, great value MC cartridge; not through any blinkered notions of nostalgia or 'fanboi-ism'. It's the exact same with the Techy.

Therein lays the difference :)

Marco.

DSJR
02-07-2009, 17:26
I've been looking at the prices of carts in 1984 - 1986 (I LOVE those old HiFi Choices :))..

During this time, the DL103 went from £60 to £90, The Dynavector 10X IV went from £75 to £60, the DL110 was £60, The B&O MMC1 was £93, the Linn Karma went from £340 to £390, the K9 was £60, The Koetsu Red went from £600 to £835, a Decca Super Gold was £248 (maroon was £109), the Shure M97HE was £40, an AT-F3 was £70 and IIRC the F5 was £99.. The Garrott Decca Microscanner was £290 in 1984, although I don't know if it had the DeccaPod included at this price...

Look at today. The DL103 hovers around £120, the DL110 is under a ton and was £70 or so before the pound hit bottom and the 160 is now £160 or so. The 10X V (only difference the mounting plate which costs pennies difference) is £275 and Linn's cartridges are through the roof - even the Adikt is a Goldring variant costing more than their top model (still cheaper than the "slurp" added on by certain other Goldring made alternatives).. Even the old Shure lives on at under a hundred quid in Xe version.

As for Koetsu's, they're now a good few thousand and only worth it for the cachet of owning one (they're not THAT good really, smothering quiet and very fine details in the name of "refinement" IMO).

bigmoog
02-07-2009, 17:41
Dave, do you remember when the new Limp LP12 went for around 70 quid?


thats all its worth new fully loaded today:lolsign::smoking:

MartinT
02-07-2009, 19:21
On the subject of Linn, I know someone who retired an Akiva for a DL-160, and considers it as one of the best things he's ever done to his (all-Linn) system

I've said it before, the DL-160 is a classic and fantastic value for money. Much as I love my AT33PTG, the DL-160 still did something liquid in the midrange that I haven't yet found in the AT.

Marco
02-07-2009, 19:27
That's a classic trait of Denon MCs, Martin - it ain't gonna happen with the AT, excellent as it is in its own right :)

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 19:37
Any Technics TT, modified or not, is nothing but an entry level or shouting DJ TT.

it's durable but completely lacking perspective, depth, musicality and linear extended freq response.

I also notice a lot of folks fitting it with hopeless S/J-arms and even the hilarious Denon cartridges gets in the groove here.

Rega P2 is maybe even worse, even though it has a more sound motor and drive princip.

Sorry guys.
Guess some of you are in for a treat later in your rich future.

"dolph"

Marco
02-07-2009, 19:43
Keep taking those tablets for your ear wax, amigo!! :lolsign:

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 19:49
Keep taking those tablets for your ear wax, amigo!! :lolsign:

Marco.

I almost feel sorry for you.

"dolph"

Marco
02-07-2009, 19:54
You'll never know how much of a warm glow that gives me, Dolphy baby! :eyebrows:

XX

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 20:04
You'll never know how much of a warm glow that gives me, Dolphy baby! :eyebrows:

XX

Marco.

Probably not.

YY

"dolph"

bigmoog
02-07-2009, 20:06
can you explain what ' linear extended freq response' means


I have degrees in Engineering Science (control theory) and Computer Science..and I dont know what it means.....help:(

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 20:07
can you explain what ' linear extended freq response' means


I have degrees in Engineering Science (control theory) and Computer Science..and I dont know what it means.....help:(

Congratulation with your fine education.

It simply means that it sounds like shit.

"dolph"

Marco
02-07-2009, 20:14
Well you'd know 'cos you're full of shit! :lol:

Do you get Hi-fi World magazine were you come from? If so, I suggest you have a look at page 100 of this month's magazine. You can download it here:

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/currentish.html

Can you see what that is on the top L/H corner of the front cover? ;)


STEP CHANGE
David Price assembles the ultimate Technics SL-1200 turntable package including Timestep PSU, SME Series V tonearm and Koetsu Red cartridge!

Guess what the review reveals? And incidentally, it's not how wonderful an old clapped-out Systemdek is! :eyebrows:

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 20:22
As a matter of fact, I have read some of their stinking incompetent issues, yes.

But just go ahead and let yourself dictate what other deaf people thinks is fancy gear.

We discuss boombox sound here.

And I who thought this was somehow a serious site.

Get a grip guys.

"dolph"

Marco
02-07-2009, 20:27
And I who thought this was somehow a serious site.


Of course it is. That's why we don't take you seriously!!! :rolleyes:

I'm off to listen to some music on my boombox, through my entry level shouting DJ TT...

Laters!

Marco.

MartinT
02-07-2009, 20:43
Is 'Dolph' for real or just a troll?

bigmoog
02-07-2009, 20:46
Congratulation with your fine education.

It simply means that it sounds like shit.

"dolph"


thanks for the congratulations, It was hard work....I did it all in esperanto


:smoking::smoking:

speakers-1989
02-07-2009, 20:51
Is 'Dolph' for real or just a troll?



Is he another one of those Richard Dunn wannabes?:lol:

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 20:58
thanks for the congratulations, It was hard work....I did it all in esperanto


:smoking::smoking:

Yeah, it seams so popular to go that way.................

To earn some proper respect, you should have taken the antroposofic doctors degree as an overbuilding to childrens psychiatry.....................and done it in Volapyk.

"dolph"

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 21:00
Is 'Dolph' for real or just a troll?



Is he another one of those Richard Dunn wannabes?:lol:

Please introduce me to Richard Dunn and I will give you an answer.

These insiders posts are so invaluable to the readers ........... except the few.

"dolph"

bigmoog
02-07-2009, 21:11
Yeah, it seams so popular to go that way.................

To earn some proper respect, you should have taken the antroposofic doctors degree as an overbuilding to childrens psychiatry.....................and done it in Volapyk.

"dolph"



one of the most fascinating aspects of current cosmological threory involves m-theory and branes, where do you stand on this...11 dimensions or the holographic principle which, strangely, states that one is a hologram......worth a discussion I think.

Spectral Morn
02-07-2009, 21:12
Is he another one of those Richard Dunn wannabes?:lol:


If you mean those who share Richard's opinions, and there are quite a few who do (nothing wrong with that), then thats fine but if this is another dig at Richard, then can I suggest you don't. AOS is a forum with varied opinions and we will all not agree, but can we keep it friendly please. No more digs.



Regards D S D L

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 21:21
one of the most fascinating aspects of current cosmological threory involves m-theory and branes, where do you stand on this...11 dimensions or the holographic principle which, strangely, states that one is a hologram......worth a discussion I think.

Maybe you're right...........worth a debate..........however, I would rather have a go at some great music performed by my gear, serving it for me as if it really was a hologram in sound ................. From a belt driven soft sprung hanging suspended wooden plinth TT with a light straight arm and a two way stereo speaker system without destructive subwoofers or room correction.

The funny thing here is that if I started talking to you in two-three letter words in my native language, you would probably not get a single idea about what it's about.

"dolph"

bigmoog
02-07-2009, 21:28
Maybe you're right...........worth a debate..........however, I would rather have a go at some great music performed by my gear, serving it for me as if it really was a hologram in sound ................. From a belt driven soft sprung hanging suspended wooden plinth TT with a light straight arm and a two way stereo speaker system without destructive subwoofers or room correction.

The funny thing here is that if I started talking to you in two-three letter words in my native language, you would probably not get a single idea about what it's about.

"dolph"


I prefer English....

whats your take on hard (er) sprung/rubber suspension, such as the sota cosmos or SME, Acutus etc and do you have any thoughts on the Voyd school of thought, ie, 2-3 motors driving acylic platter on floppy spring suspension etc...


room correction? waste of time imho, if one has bother with room....move house


:)

Marco
02-07-2009, 21:36
Jonathan, if it's got s rubber band and a Fisher Price motor on it, Dolphy's yer man! :lol:

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 21:45
I prefer English....

whats your take on hard (er) sprung/rubber suspension, such as the sota cosmos or SME, Acutus etc and do you have any thoughts on the Voyd school of thought, ie, 2-3 motors driving acylic platter on floppy spring suspension etc...


room correction? waste of time imho, if one has bother with room....move house


:)

SME had some success with hanging suspended decks.
Voyds idea wasn't bad but it's very hard to implement as the torque should stay very low and magnetic/electric units too close to any cartridge is a bad idea.
Take all 3 motors (not two) to an external spot maybe.

The 3 motor idea and the floppy spring suspension is two individual ideas.

But the floppy (I take you mean soft when writing floppy) spring suspension has less positive effect on the holism of sound if it's standing and not hanging suspension.
Like on Avid, Thorens etc.

My take on the harder types of suspension is that it has a perspective killing effect and is giving deeper notes a harder time.

I am NOT talking about colouration here.

Room Correction:
Why start repairing on your matching-gear job when you might as well get it rigth from the start.
When you move into a new place, make sure you have the first saying, before the woman, about what room is for music and how this room is supposed to be stuffed with furniture and decorated.
Don't compromise on choise of speakers thinking that it can be compensated later.

"dolph"

bigmoog
02-07-2009, 21:47
can everyone quieten down, Im on the phone (iphone 3g...) to Erich Von Daniken, we are discussing whether Limp Lp12's armboards were better manufactured from formica or MDF.....


good night


PS: high mass thread drives are lovely.........;)

bigmoog
02-07-2009, 21:48
SME had some success with hanging suspended decks.
Voyds idea wasn't bad but it's very hard to implement as the torque should stay very low and magnetic/electric units too close to any cartridge is a bad idea.
Take all 3 motors (not two) to an external spot maybe.

The 3 motor idea and the floppy spring suspension is two individual ideas.

But the floppy (I take you mean soft when writing floppy) spring suspension has less positive effect on the holism of sound if it's standing and not hanging suspension.
Like on Avid, Thorens etc.

My take on the harder types of suspension is that it has a perspective killing effect and is giving deeper notes a harder time.

I am NOT talking about colouration here.

Room Correction:
Why start repairing on your matching-gear job when you might as well get it rigth from the start.
When you move into a new place, make sure you have the first saying, before the woman, about what room is for music and how this room is supposed to be stuffed with furniture and decorated.
Don't compromise on choise of speakers thinking that it can be compensated later.

"dolph"


hmm, Interesting points, i will respond tomorrow....worth thinking about I think in a serious way.

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 21:51
Jonathan, if it's got s rubber band and a Fisher Price motor on it, Dolphy's yer man! :lol:

Marco.


I believe the best job a Technics TT can do is as a lathe when working with clay.
Just be careful with the electricity.
Maybe best to push it with your feet like the old fashioned lathe and like you do when listening to noise and premenstrual screaming through your set-up.

"dolph"

Marco
02-07-2009, 22:02
Would you be terribly upset if I filed what you've written in the bin alongside the remains of your toytown turntable? :laugh: :upyours:

Jonathan,


PS: high mass thread drives are lovely.........


Now we're talking turkey. It's the only way fatally-flawed 'belt'-drive T/T technology works!! Otherwise, wallow in the warble of wow & flutter.

Marco.

P.S Dolphy uses a Systemdek, doncha know - the pinnacle of modern turntable design (cough!)

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 22:17
Would you be terribly upset if I filed what you've written in the bin alongside the remains of your toytown turntable? :laugh: :upyours:

Jonathan,



Now we're talking turkey. It's the only way fatally-flawed 'belt'-drive T/T technology works!! Otherwise, wallow in the warble of wow & flutter.

Marco.

P.S Dolphy uses a Systemdek, doncha know - the pinnacle of modern turntable design (cough!)

As your Donald Duck TT, mine is modified Dunlop IV TOTL from Systemdek.

I would be very upset indeed, if anything I wrote here goes to the bin.
But it wouldn't surprise me.

I actually didn't start involving in this thread to insult people.
I did it because I'm dead honest.
And I really mean, out of those thousands of TT combos I have heard, Technics is just like an Austin Allegro in the cars world.
It can drive but who wants it.

And then the question is: Does anyone want the Allegro if it was modified?

"dolph"

bigmoog
02-07-2009, 22:20
damn, I was asleep


from a pure engineering scientific point of view, the traditional 3 point suspended belt drive turntable is fatally flawed for reasons that my marketing department are busy writing for me....



thread/string/fishing wire drives are wonderful, I have my motor sited across the road.....bit dodgy for cyclists tho


:smoking:

The Grand Wazoo
02-07-2009, 22:20
I don't know what other folks think, but I'm begining to move from being mildly irritated by this thread, to thinking it's turning into something we all come to AoS to avoid. It's dangerously close to turning into something that is at complete odds with the principles that the forum was supposed to have been founded upon.

I'd like to invoke 'THE ETHOS':
Dolph, you'd do well to read it (again, if necessary)

http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18

Can't the two sides in this discussion accept that they'll never agree & just move on? It's gone a little way beyond banter, I think.

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 22:27
I wonder..................
just wonder....................
how can those ethos be taken out on me when this thread in it's substance is defamatory and willy waving, even from the site administrators side.

Now I just follow the style laid out by those to show the way.

Show me another way then.

"dolph"

Marco
02-07-2009, 22:30
Chris,

You're absolutely right. But as long as we have comments so lacking in introspection such as this...


I actually didn't start involving in this thread to insult people.
I did it because I'm dead honest.


Really? You could have fooled me. Dead ignorant and blinkered more like!

...there's no hope.

But since I'm a generous sort, I'll let Dolphy have the last word before we move on.

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
02-07-2009, 22:39
I wonder..................
just wonder....................


Show me another way then.

"dolph"

Dolph, It's simple........walk away from this thread now & look at some of the others on the forum. Reply to them in a non-confrontational manner & have some respect for other people's points of view ........even if they differ from your own.

Why don't you start by telling us what you've been listening to today on the gear which of you are so proud?

You can do that here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=52280#post52280

Cheers

speakers-1989
02-07-2009, 22:43
Dolph, It's simple........walk away from this thread now & look at some of the others on the forum. Reply to them in a non-confrontational manner & have some respect for other people's points of view ........even if they differ from your own.

Why don't you start by telling us what you've been listening to today on the gear which of you are so proud?

You can do that here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=52280#post52280

Cheers


You should just say, go swim with the dolphins:lol::lolsign:

niklasthedolphin
02-07-2009, 23:00
Well
Goodbye thread.

I had some exquisite 3-D listening sessions on my TT as well as my Lyrec R2R today.
I made a recording on my digital Hard Disk Studio recorder in 24/192 today as well.

May you all possess imagination enough to make the Technics gear sound a little more than mono 250 Hz - 5000Hz, may the roomacoustics be with you so that a guitar does not sound like a cheese cutter and a triangle a little more than a doorbell with a bad battery.
May you Technics listeners all stay happy in total disillussion...............

Good night and sleep tight.

"dolph"

Spectral Morn
02-07-2009, 23:00
You should just say, go swim with the dolphins:lol::lolsign:

Shane are you deliberately being rude to people. First Richard and now Dolph. I think everyone needs to take a step back here.

There have been a number of posts that have been rude, aggressive, and highly opinionated and from many involved in writing on it(I can name names but you all know who you are).

Most TT designs are flawed and are compromised in various ways. However those designs can provide pleasure in the chosen/complementary systems their owners use...even if you can't see or hear it.

Marco rates his highly modded Technic's as being about as good as it gets at the price. Well maybe it is...I have yet to hear one so can't comment. I think it interesting while the Hi-Fi world review gave it a very positive write up David Price did not make the sort of claims for it that Marco does. Maybe he can't but wants to, again I don't know. This is a question I will have to answer for myself in the future.

Do I like the sound/presentation of a Linn set up Linn LP12.....NOPE. I do prefer it when it is less tight and a bit more compliant. So all those things torced with in an inch of their lives loosened. I think it sounds better.

Do I think the current Linn upgrades are a rip of well IMHO Yes I do.

Have I heard high mass thread drives....No. May well be the best way of doing belt drive. At this stage I don't know...another question to be answered.

All the belt drive TT's mentioned so far I have heard and like. I loved the Voyd presentation as used in a classic Audio Innovations set up...and outside of that. I owned a Valdi once and regret selling it on. I like my Oracle Delphi mk4 a lot and my SME Model 20 but with a Graham arm on it and not an SME5.

This thread has drifted into the type of mire you can find on other forums... I am disappointed.


Guys please try and be more respectful of each other. You all disagree so far but stop resorting in throwing thinly veiled insults at each other....its very poor.



Regards D S D L

Marco
02-07-2009, 23:07
Neil,

If you examine the inflammatory contents of Dolph's last post and especially his earlier post #123, it doesn't take a genius to work out how this tête à tête started. I suppose his disrespectful jibes are at least consistent.

If you're going to dish it out then be prepared to take it back in return!

*However*, we move on...

Regarding DP and the comments on his modified Techy in HFW, I think you've (possibly) answered your own question ;)


Maybe he can't but wants to, again I don't know


There's more to it than that, though.

But I'll comment in more detail when I address the contents of his review in a separate thread later :)

Marco.

symon
02-07-2009, 23:12
If you're going to dish it out then be prepared to take some back in return!

Marco.

Marco, I know I really should allow this drfit to continue - but are you sure about this? It worries me that you hold this view, because this is how the mud slinging and deterioration sets in and sticks.

speakers-1989
02-07-2009, 23:13
Shane are you deliberately being rude to people. First Richard and now Dolph. I think everyone needs to take a step back here.

There have been a number of posts that have been rude, aggressive, and highly opinionated and from many involved in writing on it(I can name names but you all know who you are).

Most TT designs are flawed and are compromised in various ways. However those designs can provide pleasure in the chosen/complementary systems their owners use...even if you can't see or hear it.

Marco rates his highly modded Technic's as being about as good as it gets at the price. Well maybe it is...I have yet to hear one so can't comment. I think it interesting while the Hi-Fi world review gave it a very positive write up David Price did not make the sort of claims for it that Marco does. Maybe he can't but wants to, again I don't know. This is a question I will have to answer for myself in the future.

Do I like the sound/presentation of a Linn set up Linn LP12.....NOPE. I do prefer it when it is less tight and a bit more compliant. So all those things torced with in an inch of their lives loosened. I think it sounds better.

Do I think the current Linn upgrades are a rip of well IMHO Yes I do.

Have I heard high mass thread drives....No. May well be the best way of doing belt drive. At this stage I don't know...another question to be answered.

All the belt drive TT's mentioned so far I have heard and like. I loved the Voyd presentation as used in a classic Audio Innovations set up...and outside of that. I owned a Valdi once and regret selling it on. I like my Oracle Delphi mk4 a lot and my SME Model 20 but with a Graham arm on it and not an SME5.

This thread has drifted into the type of mire you can find on other forums... I am disappointed.


Guys please try and be more respectful of each other. You all disagree so far but stop resorting in throwing thinly veiled insults at each other....its very poor.



Regards D S D L









I'm not being rude, I'm only joking:)


Open your eyes.

Spectral Morn
02-07-2009, 23:14
Neil,

If you examine the inflammatory contents of Dolph's last post and especially his earlier post #123, it doesn't take a genius to work out how this tête à tête started.

If you're going to dish it out then be prepared to take some back in return!

*However*, we move on...

Regarding DP and his comments on his modified Techy in HFW, I think you've partly answered your own question ;)



But, I'll comment more when I address the contents of his review in a separate thread :)

Marco.

I didn't say that Dolph was innocent.... I was including him. However some positions in this thread are somewhat overly precious IMHO and have lead to the degree of rudeness shown....on all sides.

This is my opinion :(


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
02-07-2009, 23:17
I'm not being rude, I'm only joking:)


Open your eyes.

Shane that maybe the case, but some may find your humour insulting. Humour is in the eye of the beholder..and it can be hard to legislate for how it is received.


Regards D S D L

Marco
02-07-2009, 23:24
Marco, I know I really should allow this drfit to continue - but are you sure about this? It worries me that you hold this view, because this is how the mud slinging and deterioration sets in and sticks.

Hi Peter,

It's not a view that I embrace with much affection, I can assure you, and I normally avoid it, but unfortunately given Dolph's behaviour it's richly deserved.

Anyway, I must insist now that we all get back on topic. No more on this subject, please. Cheers!

Marco.

Marco
02-07-2009, 23:35
Neil (and also Dolphy),

I think you should check out David's latest comments regarding the Techy here (Dolphy should pay particular attention to his last sentence ;))

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=52348#post52348

:)

Marco.