Any interest in MC head amps?

[Arkless Electronics]

This is a spin off from another thread where I recently raised this subject. Quite a few people on this 'ere site use a valve phono stage in conjunction with a step up transformer (SUT).... there is of course another way of providing the initial extra gain to the output of an MC cartridge..... A solid state (SS) head amplifier!
A SS head amp can beat a SUT in terms of wide and flat frequency response, low distortion and lack of phase shift. It can also provide better compatibility with a wider range of different cartridges and cartridge loadings than SUT's. Downsides? An SUT will generally beat a head amp in terms of noise (background hiss) but the noise from a head amp can easily be low enough to be unobtrusive and not an issue in practice.
This thread is not intended to be a battleground for any SUT versus head amps argument but more to get an idea of the level of interest in head amps, to ask you lot what features you consider most desirable in a head amp, and indeed to see if they are even considered relevant any more as there doesn't seem to be many about in this day and age. I may even build some based on your feedback ;) if there's enough interest of course!

[Andrew B]

Jez, FWIW I reckon that demand will very quickly be created if you knock out a great product. If you'd asked the same question about modded Cambridge 640s before people had heard your product, many folks would've turned their noses up.

There may be not be a lot of interest now, but that would also mean a gap in the market because not many people are doing it. Good luck and I really hope you do it.

[Audioman]

There is a market for these - only Slee and Albarry do them to my knowledge. They have the advantage of more ready matching to a wide range of MC cartridges. Also should be cheaper to build than a decent SUT.

[Ali Tait]

I have a Threshold Model 40 pre (Nelson Pass design) which has internal MM and MC stages, and have a Mayware SUT winging it's way to me as I type. Once I get my 401 in it's slate plinth at the upcoming Owston, it'll be a good chance to compare both approaches.

I prefer valves in general, purely because I like how they sound, but I'm not closed minded, and would be interested in hearing a SS head amp.

It would have to be very good to better Nick's valve/JFET hybrid though!

[Arkless Electronics]

Jez, FWIW I reckon that demand will very quickly be created if you knock out a great product. If you'd asked the same question about modded Cambridge 640s before people had heard your product, many folks would've turned their noses up.

There may be not be a lot of interest now, but that would also mean a gap in the market because not many people are doing it. Good luck and I really hope you do it.

Possibly.... I was really wanting to see if there is any interest in such a thing before possibly wasting lots of time, energy and money on a solution to a problem that no one considers a problem.

[Arkless Electronics]

I have a Threshold Model 40 pre (Nelson Pass design) which has internal MM and MC stages, and have a Mayware SUT winging it's way to me as I type. Once I get my 401 in it's slate plinth at the upcoming Owston, it'll be a good chance to compare both approaches.

I prefer valves in general, purely because I like how they sound, but I'm not closed minded, and would be interested in hearing a SS head amp.

It would have to be very good to better Nick's valve/JFET hybrid though!

What I'm proposing is just a head amp. It's not a phono stage. I have the Arkless 640P available already in terms of actual phono stages and other higher end designs as WIP.

[PaulStewart]

Built a single transistor one many years ago (B109c) which was surprisingly good and back in the day, the little Lentek punched well above it's weight. A Valve and/or JFET head amp might be interesting

[Arkless Electronics]

Built a single transistor one many years ago (B109c) which was surprisingly good and back in the day, the little Lentek punched well above it's weight. A Valve and/or JFET head amp might be interesting

It would be JFET, unless customer demand is for something otherwise! I can't see any point in adding a valve to the recipe as it has nothing to add, in the context of a stand alone head amp, but expense and reliability issues. It would certainly instantly cause the price to rise by maybe x 4 or so!
It's the kind of suggestion I'm looking for from AOS members though so thanks anyway :) If it turns out that the demand is for a valve /fet hybrid then I can of course do that.... or even an all valve head amp if that was what people want! They are very rare for good reasons though:
1/ Noise. It is possible to make one that's adequately quiet... but only just adequately.
2/ Reliability. They are very unreliable. Not in terms of failing altogether but only the best quality valves available are suitable and even then they will only last a few months to a year (tops), in my experience, before developing random crackling/rustling/hissing sounds that require one of the valves to be replaced. The "faulty" valve removed from it would still be suitable for just about any other use but for a head amp it's THAT critical!

I already have an all valve head amp here that I built years ago which sounds great but even Mullard industrial and military grade valves had to be selected to find ones which were good enough for the task!

[Ali Tait]

What I'm proposing is just a head amp. It's not a phono stage. I have the Arkless 640P available already in terms of actual phono stages and other higher end designs as WIP.

Perhaps I'm being a bit thick, but what is the practical difference between a head amp and the SS MC phono stage in my pre, apart from it having the rest of the preamp built around it?

[Oldpinkman]

Perhaps I'm being a bit thick, but what is the practical difference between a head amp and the SS MC phono stage in my pre, apart from it having the rest of the preamp built around it?

The phono stage has to amplify a tiny signal and apply RIAA correction. A moving coil head amp leaves the RIAA to the existing phono stage and just provides the additional gain needed for a low output moving coil cartridge, and the load matching. If you have a good existing MC phono amp, you don't need a head amp. If you only have a MM phono stage you need a head amp, or a SUT which is a transformer to increase the tiny voltage, trading off with a tiny current. I think !

[PaulStewart]

This sounds like an application where a nuvistor would work, but they are as scarce as hens teeth, I have a few but, I'm keeping them for my AKG C12 mics. I remember hearing an Accuphase head amp using FETs years ago, it was impressively detailed and dynamic with a Supex.

Cheers

[Arkless Electronics]

The phono stage has to amplify a tiny signal and apply RIAA correction. A moving coil head amp leaves the RIAA to the existing phono stage and just provides the additional gain needed for a low output moving coil cartridge, and the load matching. If you have a good existing MC phono amp, you don't need a head amp. If you only have a MM phono stage you need a head amp, or a SUT which is a transformer to increase the tiny voltage, trading off with a tiny current. I think !

Yep!

It's usually valve phono stages which are MM only and need a step up, be it a SUT or a head amp, to increase the level of the MC cartridge to MM levels.
Some solid state phono stages may benefit as well but that all depends on the quality of their MC input. Older integrated amps or pre amps which have MM input only also need a step up device to use MC.

[Arkless Electronics]

This sounds like an application where a nuvistor would work, but they are as scarce as hens teeth, I have a few but, I'm keeping them for my AKG C12 mics. I remember hearing an Accuphase head amp using FETs years ago, it was impressively detailed and dynamic with a Supex.

Cheers

Yes nuvistors can be used (and have been) but they are not the optimum choice and the same problems apply to them, plus their rarity and price!

[Ali Tait]

Yep!

It's usually valve phono stages which are MM only and need a step up, be it a SUT or a head amp, to increase the level of the MC cartridge to MM levels.
Some solid state phono stages may benefit as well but that all depends on the quality of their MC input. Older integrated amps or pre amps which have MM input only also need a step up device to use MC.

Thanks gents, more clear now.

[Arkless Electronics]

The basic idea I'm mulling over would be a jfet based, zero feedback head amp to be built on tag board with point to point wiring (no PCB). It would be housed in a basic off-the-shelf (but nice) case which would be left plain (I.E no graphics/logo etc) and powered from a "wall wart" power supply.

I am not envisaging huge demand and so in very small quantities the no PCB method would be more economical, plus some believe it to have a sound quality advantage and a certain cachet..... The economics of such small quantities are also the reason for no logo/graphics as they would add a huge amount to the cost.

As to that there cost thing well at kind of brain fart/guesstimate levels I'm thinking as low as £250 - 300.... or more like double that (or more) if people are looking for something really high end and want fancy non magnetic resistors, "boutique" capacitors, lowest possible noise levels and improved internal power regulation etc

This is an area where I particularly value the opinions of the members here. Do people want an active head amp to rival (maybe better!?) the likes of the Ortofon ST80SE or a much cheaper head amp to take on the £300 - 500 SUT's? Or an option of either? Or is there just no interest because those who use valve phono stages and are "valve heads" may want no SS devices in the signal path and possibly for that reason tend to use SUT's out of deliberate erm... lets call it bias towards the idea of SUT's rather than head amps?

[Marco]

Hi Jez,

As you know, I like both head amps and SUTs. No bias here, as we discussed :)

Purely from a selish point of view, I'd love to hear something that would rival my ST-80SE. Therefore, if/when you get round to building it, swing one my way for a listen :cool:

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Hi Jez,

As you know, I like both head amps and SUTs. No bias here, as we discussed :)

Purely from a selish point of view, I'd love to hear something that would rival my ST-80SE. Therefore, if/when you get round to building it, swing one my way for a listen :cool:

Marco.

A couple of people have said that it first needs to exist so that people can take a look at it etc.... but as it's only going to be a box with four phono sockets, a power socket and an earth post on it there is really nothing much to look at! Obviously folks will want to hear it before purchase and also to read others impressions on it here on AOS but unless a few people express some sort of interest in it there's no point in me taking it any further.... :scratch:

[Marco]

Obviously folks will want to hear it before purchase and also to read others impressions on it here on AOS but unless a few people express some sort of interest in it there's no point in me taking it any further.... :scratch:

Well, I'm expressing an interest in hearing it, so count me in as one of the few!

Marco.

[trio leo]

I use the Albarry MCA11 battery powered head amp and I think it is a superb bit of kit, it doesn't add or take away anything, it just lets the cartridge do the job, I know nothing about electrickery, I guess being battery powered it doesn't have any mains/hum type problems.
it is switchable inside for different cartridge loading.

I heard it compared to a £650 Lehman (don't remember the model) and to be fair the MCA11 was considerably better IMHO. at £500 I think it is also excellent VFM.

Enjoy your music

regards Al

[Batty]

I have a home made Marshall Leech designed head amp and a 10:1 SUT, They are both good at what they do but I prefer the head amp.

[Arkless Electronics]

Well, I'm expressing an interest in hearing it, so count me in as one of the few!

Marco.

People wanting to hear it with a view to buying it would be more like it! :rolleyes: :)

[YNWaN]

I doubt you will find many people interested Jez - it's very much a niche within a niche.

[Arkless Electronics]

I doubt you will find many people interested Jez - it's very much a niche within a niche.

I guess so Mark.... I pretty much expected it really but as it is a quick and relatively easy task to build one I thought I'd check out the interest level... it seems to be a round figure!

[WOStantonCS100]

I guess so Mark.... I pretty much expected it really but as it is a quick and relatively easy task to build one I thought I'd check out the interest level... it seems to be a round figure!

I wouldn't necessarily abandon the idea. As they say, if you build it, they will come. :) Also, offering no ballpark on price, tends to keep hands down. There are probably those on the fence who are considering the whole "move up to MC cart" idea; but, that means they need an idea of total cost... MC cart + MC head amp or SUT. Just thinking out loud. Personally, I've been looking a lot at Bob's Devices. How do you feel your head amp would compare?

[Arkless Electronics]

I wouldn't necessarily abandon the idea. As they say, if you build it, they will come. :) Also, offering no ballpark on price, tends to keep hands down. There are probably those on the fence who are considering the whole "move up to MC cart" idea; but, that means they need an idea of total cost... MC cart + MC head amp or SUT. Just thinking out loud. Personally, I've been looking a lot at Bob's Devices. How do you feel your head amp would compare?

Check out post 15 ;)

I'm not familiar with Bobs Devices I'm afraid...

[WOStantonCS100]

Check out post 15 ;)

I'm not familiar with Bobs Devices I'm afraid...

My bad. That slipped by me. Very reasonable price I might add; perhaps a bargain?

Bob's Devices Cinemag SUTs, although I can't seem to get to the site at present.

[Marco]

People wanting to hear it with a view to buying it would be more like it! :rolleyes: :)

Well, if it significantly outperformed my ST80SE, I would buy it, but I've got to hear it first, dude! Are you familiar with the process in business called 'speculate to accumulate'? ;)

Like others are saying, you have to build one, then put it out there and let it do the 'round robin', as you have done with your phono stage, and the sales will follow. Otherwise, you're not going to generate the required interest - it's as simple as that, matey.

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

You want a couple of ecc83's poking out of the case with their heaters wired up and a simple timer circuit to delay switch on and then it would look like it would sound lovely. Had a similar discussion this weekend. I suspect the problem is as you outlined. If you have line only and no phobias about sand you can buy a decent mm/mc phono stage. If you have a valve phono stage/preamp there will be an irrational voice inside saying "don't add a box with transistors in" . Or rather "with no valves showing"

I sympathise. I might even actually do it. I am desperate for a good valve amp because of the response they evoke from visitors and because they are just so damn pretty to look at. So I might for real when I case up owens power amp boards get a shiny case, some shiny transformer caps and 4 300b's lit up and poking through. I fancy a push-pull. Best of both worlds ;)

[Mr Kipling]

Jez man. Jez. . . Me old mate. . . Me old mucker. . . MC Head Amp? Old hat mate. Old hat. This is AOS - natural habitat of the disco turntable lover. . . And what they really would go fot would be something like a real top-notch humdinger of an accessory. And my suggestion would be a going to town pulling the stops out (as far as they go) on a - wait for it. Wait for it - SOUND-TO-LIGHT-CONVERTER"!!! Oh yes. . . Strobing. Synching - give it the full monty, Jez. Give the lads something to look at while they play their James Last.

You can thank me later when the stampeed for orders has died down.

[Oldpinkman]

Has anyone else noticed the spread of the fashion to high street. Samsung now do a tv sound bar with valve amplifier technology. Looks like it sounds awesome! :eek:

[StanleyB]

Possibly.... I was really wanting to see if there is any interest in such a thing before possibly wasting lots of time, energy and money on a solution to a problem that no one considers a problem.
I spend a lot of time, energy and money building numerous proto types in order to find solutions to problems that not many considered to be a problem. A typical example is the TC-7220. When I first mentioned the idea, not many people felt that there was a need for such an item. Now it is the 2nd best seller in my range.
So sometimes (many times) you have to take a costly risk and hope that it pays off.

[Marco]

Jez man. Jez. . . Me old mate. . . Me old mucker. . . MC Head Amp? Old hat mate. Old hat. This is AOS - natural habitat of the disco turntable lover. . . And what they really would go fot would be something like a real top-notch humdinger of an accessory. And my suggestion would be a going to town pulling the stops out (as far as they go) on a - wait for it. Wait for it - SOUND-TO-LIGHT-CONVERTER"!!! Oh yes. . . Strobing. Synching - give it the full monty, Jez. Give the lads something to look at while they play their James Last.

You can thank me later when the stampeed for orders has died down.

Yeah, bring it on, baby! :lolsign:

Marco.

[Marco]

So sometimes (many times) you have to take a costly risk and hope that it pays off.

Indeed, hence 'speculate to accumulate'...

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

I'll knock one up to use with my own valve phono stage I built years ago (if it still works! It hasn't been switched on for about 12 years... the 4U 19" rack power supply is the main concern!) and see how it goes.... It won't be a cost no object version though. If I think it's good enough I'll let some people hear it on AOS.
I was rather hoping a few people would have indicated that it was something they may be interested in but there you go.... At least I'll get my own valve phono working again so no loss :)

[DSJR]

There is a market for these - only Slee and Albarry do them to my knowledge. They have the advantage of more ready matching to a wide range of MC cartridges. Also should be cheaper to build than a decent SUT.

If the Albarry was priced more for the home market, it would probably be a third cheaper I suspect?

[Ali Tait]

I'd certainly be interested Jez. I like valves but am not wedded to them. It would have to be very good to beat LDA's valve/JFET hybrid stage though.

[Arkless Electronics]

I'd certainly be interested Jez. I like valves but am not wedded to them. It would have to be very good to beat LDA's valve/JFET hybrid stage though.

They make a valve/JFET hybrid head amp then?

[Arkless Electronics]

I've just done a google search.... It's a phono stage not a head amp!

I have valve/fet hybrid designs of my own but will probably be making a phono stage based on transimpedance technology for my next phono stage offering (think Pink Triangle "The Pip" and the Paradise phono stage ;) )

[Oldpinkman]

(think Pink Triangle "The Pip" and the Paradise phono stage ;) )

I do. Often. With a silly grin on my face. Knock em dead kid! :cool:

[chris@panteg]

Jez , I'm interested , was looking at trying a Rothwell SUT with my Marantz pearl lite , not sure it's such a wise move at the moment ?

I have a Diablo phono and an getting great results at the moment but to experiment all the same .

[Ali Tait]

I've just done a google search.... It's a phono stage not a head amp!

I have valve/fet hybrid designs of my own but will probably be making a phono stage based on transimpedance technology for my next phono stage offering (think Pink Triangle "The Pip" and the Paradise phono stage ;) )

Great, bring it on. Couldn't give a toss how I listen to the black stuff, just want the best sound for the least money quite frankly..

[Ali Tait]

.....if yours sounds the best I will buy it.

[Arkless Electronics]

.....if yours sounds the best I will buy it.

That's great and is all I could ask from any prospective customer! I'm my own biggest critic and if I don't think it sounds great myself then it stays here and gets scrapped basically....

It's pretty much already designed as a shoot off from that time a couple of months ago when no customer work was carried out for a while 'cos I was in an R & D head state... hope to build it over the weekend and have something ready by Monday.... fingers crossed!

[Arkless Electronics]

Jez , I'm interested , was looking at trying a Rothwell SUT with my Marantz pearl lite , not sure it's such a wise move at the moment ?

I have a Diablo phono and an getting great results at the moment but to experiment all the same .

It's just a head amp not a whole phono stage.... I will soon have the demo Arkless 640P "Turbo" available which you may may want to try against your Diablo ;)

[chris@panteg]

It's just a head amp not a whole phono stage.... I will soon have the demo Arkless 640P "Turbo" available which you may may want to try against your Diablo ;)

That I might Jez , I just wanted to try out the phono stage in my Pearl lite with my 33EV , need an SUT or head amp obviously .

I used to have a 640p , the Diablo was a big upgrade of course .

[sq225917]

Jez, the target market for a mc head stage is the subset off, listeners to vinyl, with a mm stage, a mc cart and a SUT or preexisting headamp- who are unhappy with the sound. That's a tiny section of a small Venn diagram. If you were to offer a mm only stage then it would be a suitable product to go alongside that, but otherwise the target market is almost none existant. I'd concentrate your efforts on the mass market.

[The Grand Wazoo]

You've missed a bit out Simon. There are a good few people with a mm cartridge who want to go mc. Yes, the numbers are small in the great scheme of things, but that's where the most likely section of buyers lie, I reckon.

[Arkless Electronics]

Jez, the target market for a mc head stage is the subset off, listeners to vinyl, with a mm stage, a mc cart and a SUT or preexisting headamp- who are unhappy with the sound. That's a tiny section of a small Venn diagram. If you were to offer a mm only stage then it would be a suitable product to go alongside that, but otherwise the target market is almost none existant. I'd concentrate your efforts on the mass market.

It's so easy for me to do, having already designed it as an off-shoot of something else, and already having suitable parts in stock, that it's a case of "why the hell not!?" I do already have a valve MM stage designed as well, plus a valve hybrid one. With the pre Xmas very quiet times business wise one needs to keep as many irons in the fire as possible!

This is also the reason why there is currently a 10% off special offer on the Arkless 640p/651P folks!! See the trade announcement section for further details...

[Marco]

You've missed a bit out Simon. There are a good few people with a mm cartridge who want to go mc. Yes, the numbers are small in the great scheme of things, but that's where the most likely section of buyers lie, I reckon.

Precisely! There are also quite a few folks here using SUTs, so it would be fun finding out if Jez's head amp could 'usurp' their popularity :)

Marco.

[Mr Kipling]

What about a cartridge loading module, Jez? Say five values of capacitance and resistance. I'm not sure if it was QED that did a more basic one (2R/3C I think) in the early '80s. Just a thought.

[Arkless Electronics]

What about a cartridge loading module, Jez? Say five values of capacitance and resistance. I'm not sure if it was QED that did a more basic one (2R/3C I think) in the early '80s. Just a thought.

I could certainly build such a thing for anyone with an interest yes.... with as many settings as anyone wants... and in MM or MC versions... or even one which covers both! By the nature of everything I do being hand built though it would be at least £100 for the base model. If anyone wants one let me know.

By the same token I can build all manner of adaptors and converters, cables, linear regulated power supplies, "super regulators" for SS and valve amps etc.... so long as it's analogue just name it ;)

In theory much more ambitious things like custom made phono stages, line stages, power amps etc can also be built to order.... the problem is it's a non starter 'cos if something is being built as a one-off then obviously you can't hear it before I build it :eek:

[bob4333]

What about a cartridge loading module, Jez? Say five values of capacitance and resistance. I'm not sure if it was QED that did a more basic one (2R/3C I think) in the early '80s. Just a thought.

Now that's something I would be interested in!!

I'm not unhappy with my phono stage but I certainly couldn't persuade it to give of it's best for my recent but brief foray into Shelter 5000 ownership.:doh:

I'm now extremely nervous of blowing another wedge on a pricey MC cartridge until I fully understand what went wrong. From what I've read since, a module like the one described would allow me to optimise a few things without buying a new phono stage - wouldn't it.......?

Or perhaps it wouldn't change the sound sufficiently to make a big enough difference?

[Arkless Electronics]

Now that's something I would be interested in!!

I'm not unhappy with my phono stage but I certainly couldn't persuade it to give of it's best for my recent but brief foray into Shelter 5000 ownership.:doh:

I'm now extremely nervous of blowing another wedge on a pricey MC cartridge until I fully understand what went wrong. From what I've read since, a module like the one described would allow me to optimise a few things without buying a new phono stage - wouldn't it.......?

Or perhaps it wouldn't change the sound sufficiently to make a big enough difference?

Different cartridges react differently to loading so it's impossible to say what the degree of difference from changing loading would be for any given cartridge I'm afraid... all you can really do is Google for what other owners of that model have found and ask people on forums such as this... or buy one and try it :)

[bob4333]

Different cartridges react differently to loading .............. all you can really do is Google for what other owners of that model have found and ask people on forums such as this... or buy one and try it :)

Yup, I feared that may be the case and is exactly what I did with the Shelter - and got it wrong. More than ever I'm starting to believe that a cart demo (if you can find such a thing) without your own phono stage is pretty useless.

Thanks for formalising what I'd started to suspect.

[Arkless Electronics]

Yup, I feared that may be the case and is exactly what I did with the Shelter - and got it wrong. More than ever I'm starting to believe that a cart demo (if you can find such a thing) without your own phono stage is pretty useless.

Thanks for formalising what I'd started to suspect.

I kinda meant "or buy a loading module of me and try it" ! But I know what you mean ;)

[guy]

Hi,

Showing my ignorance (yet again :) ) but I am suspicious of/have irrational fear of "wall warts", they seem cheap and nasty to me (also a possible source of interference?).

I would be interested to hear a battery operated step up - is this possible/practical?

My onix oa20 has only a mm input and that lacks sensitivity even for a HOMC.

Guy.

[StanleyB]

Hi,

Showing my ignorance (yet again :) ) but I am suspicious of/have irrational fear of "wall warts", they seem cheap and nasty to me (also a possible source of interference?).

I would be interested to hear a battery operated step up - is this possible/practical?
.
I have been selling a low cost MM phono preamp that is both battery and mains powered. I must say that on battery the thing is really super quiet. I also used to have a Technics battery powered phono stage. That too was super quiet. So there is something to be said in favour of a battery powered phono stage.

[Arkless Electronics]

Hi,

Showing my ignorance (yet again :) ) but I am suspicious of/have irrational fear of "wall warts", they seem cheap and nasty to me (also a possible source of interference?).

I would be interested to hear a battery operated step up - is this possible/practical?



My onix oa20 has only a mm input and that lacks sensitivity even for a HOMC.

Guy.

Many share your irrational fear of wall warts I'm sure ;) As I explained at some length in a different thread, there's really nothing to fear! It's just a transformer, rectifier and smoothing capacitor.... the same as would be fitted internally in most smaller items. The important bit is what is done with the power after it enters the unit being powered! In units built by myself, whatever they are, if they are powered by a wall wart then there is serious filtration followed by regulation inside the unit.... to the point where it really doesn't matter one jot what the voltage entering the unit is like quality wise.

I am expecting to finish a demo head amp today but it will not be battery powered. I can build a battery powered unit to order for any one who wants one but there will be no demo unit made. Expect a battery powered unit to be about 3 X the cost..... It would be powered from internal rechargeable batteries and have a built in charger. Disposable batteries are not practical for this unit as they would last maybe 4 - 5 hours only...

[Ammonite Audio]

Many share your irrational fear of wall warts I'm sure ;) As I explained at some length in a different thread, there's really nothing to fear! It's just a transformer, rectifier and smoothing capacitor.... the same as would be fitted internally in most smaller items. The important bit is what is done with the power after it enters the unit being powered! In units built by myself, whatever they are, if they are powered by a wall wart then there is serious filtration followed by regulation inside the unit.... to the point where it really doesn't matter one jot what the voltage entering the unit is like quality wise.

I am expecting to finish a demo head amp today but it will not be battery powered. I can build a battery powered unit to order for any one who wants one but there will be no demo unit made. Expect a battery powered unit to be about 3 X the cost..... It would be powered from internal rechargeable batteries and have a built in charger. Disposable batteries are not practical for this unit as they would last maybe 4 - 5 hours only...

With respect, the crap that many wall-warts inject back into the mains and therefore to the rest of the system is important. I'm sure that I'm not the only person who has noticed this, hence why many of us here employ quality after-market linear supplies such as those from Paul Hynes or Nick Gorham. A power supply is not simply a question of how clean is the supply entering the equipment.

If you are serious about producing a MC head amp, then please be serious about mains/RFI interference for the whole system.

[Arkless Electronics]

With respect, the crap that many wall-warts inject back into the mains and therefore to the rest of the system is important. I'm sure that I'm not the only person who has noticed this, hence why many of us here employ quality after-market linear supplies such as those from Paul Hynes or Nick Gorham. A power supply is not simply a question of how clean is the supply entering the equipment.

If you are serious about producing a MC head amp, then please be serious about mains/RFI interference for the whole system.

Utter rubbish!

[YNWaN]

Hugo, I think you are referring to switch mode 'wall warts' whilst Jez is not.

[Arkless Electronics]

Hugo, I think you are referring to switch mode 'wall warts' whilst Jez is not.

Indeed I am not referring to switch mode wall warts! It's unfortunate that conventional ones are getting harder to obtain...

[Ammonite Audio]

I'm not talking of SMPSs as such. My point of disagreement is the black and white assertion that the only important parameter is the cleanliness of the (DC) supply to the equipment. Things are not as simple as that in audio and a competent designer should at least acknowledge the potential for noise pollution back through the mains and its effect on the rest of the system. Of course, a SMPS may be (but not necessarily) more likely to do that than a good linear supply, but we are talking about "wall-warts" here, which tends to imply something small and cheap.

Anyway, I do believe that in audiophile circles, a "wall-wart" tends to be seen as cheap, nasty and penny-pinching, so that's a good reason to avoid them. Unless the product in question is not aimed at audiophiles, is priced at the 'cheap' end of the market, and the maker cares not a damn for how his or her product is viewed.

[Arkless Electronics]

I'm not talking of SMPSs as such. My point of disagreement is the black and white assertion that the only important parameter is the cleanliness of the (DC) supply to the equipment. Things are not as simple as that in audio and a competent designer should at least acknowledge the potential for noise pollution back through the mains and its effect on the rest of the system. Of course, a SMPS may be (but not necessarily) more likely to do that than a good linear supply, but we are talking about "wall-warts" here, which tends to imply something small and cheap.

Anyway, I do believe that in audiophile circles, a "wall-wart" tends to be seen as cheap, nasty and penny-pinching, so that's a good reason to avoid them. Unless the product in question is not aimed at audiophiles, is priced at the 'cheap' end of the market, and the maker cares not a damn for how his or her product is viewed.

A wall wart supply consists of a transformer, rectifier and smoothing capacitor.... in exactly the same way as the internal supply in 99% of equipment. Just because it happens to be in a plastic encapsulation, has 3 pins and plugs directly into the wall is completely irrelevant to matters.

Granted the size and often quality of the smoothing cap will usually be less than in a decent internal supply (certainly not always though!) but when the equipment itself contains a much bigger smoothing capacitor this too is irrelevant. We now have a basic supply exactly the same as the one in any normal piece of equipment. Obviously in all I'm saying I am referring to low consumption items such as phono stages, line stages and headphone amps.

In my equipment it is further filtered and then regulated. It is now as good as it gets power quality wise.

There is a even a very good case for a wall wart being superior to an internal PSU. The AC magnetic field from the transformer is physically distanced from the sensitive electronics, as is the direct radiated interference from the switching of the rectifiers.

Indeed, there is a general suspicion and even dislike for wall warts amongst audiophiles, but that is due to the fact that it looks cheap to use a wall wart.
It actually has no deleterious effect in itself.

The hifi industry has in many cases milked the demand they themselves, with the help of reviewers and dealers in many instances, have created by false advertising claims made without any technical basis. This has tarnished wall warts to the point where they are often wrongly considered as not suitable for high end equipment at all.
Yes in some cases internal/external high quality non-wall-wart supplies are advantageous... such as when greater power is needed, or when something needs multiple voltages, such as valve gear needing HT and filament supply.

Also where you do not have the luxury of being able to design something to work perfectly with a wall wart, such as something you already own, which has been built with a cheap and inadequate means of internal filtration and regulation, well then, under those circumstances, a high quality linear regulated supply could help..... but would still be far inferior to anything in which the internals had been properly designed and built in the first place... even if powered by a wall wart!

;)

[Oldpinkman]

I'm not talking of SMPSs as such. My point of disagreement is the black and white assertion that the only important parameter is the cleanliness of the (DC) supply to the equipment. Things are not as simple as that in audio and a competent designer should at least acknowledge the potential for noise pollution back through the mains and its effect on the rest of the system. Of course, a SMPS may be (but not necessarily) more likely to do that than a good linear supply, but we are talking about "wall-warts" here, which tends to imply something small and cheap.

Anyway, I do believe that in audiophile circles, a "wall-wart" tends to be seen as cheap, nasty and penny-pinching, so that's a good reason to avoid them. Unless the product in question is not aimed at audiophiles, is priced at the 'cheap' end of the market, and the maker cares not a damn for how his or her product is viewed.

Are you saying that the wall-warts feed "dirt" back into the mains and that this "spoilt mains" upsets the rest of the system? :scratch: That would be an unusual take. I know an exceptionally competent audio designer, who recently completed a profesional design using SMPS (internal to the amp as it turns out, but it would be as likely to feedback into the mains as a wall wart if such an idea were possible), who would not accept that possibility, and neither would the professional studios who buy his product. Anyway, if such an idea were possible, any wallwart regardless if it were used for HiFi would do that and I have a house full of them! A wallwart "feeding back into the mains" doesn't know if its connected to a phone, a modem, router, light controller or an audio product. Indeed, since my mains is linked to my neighbours and the whole village via the national grid, it would be frightening to think of all the dirt on the mains spoiling my audio from the hundreds of wall warts connected.

If you meant that a "dirty" wall wart might feed noise into the DC it was supplying, that would be different but "back through the mains" is not a concept I would expect to see any competent electrical engineer agree with. As Jez points out, in principle a wall wart is no different to an internal power supply, except that the components are moved to another box. So if SMPS is the issue then any "feedback" idea would apply to the professional amp I referred to - and it doesnt. And an audio product using the same components as a wallwart, but internal to it (like a skybox) would have the same effect - since it is the components that would cause any problem, not where they are housed.

Perhaps I misinterpreted what you meant :scratch:

[Arkless Electronics]

Are you saying that the wall-warts feed "dirt" back into the mains and that this "spoilt mains" upsets the rest of the system? :scratch: That would be an unusual take. I know an exceptionally competent audio designer, who recently completed a profesional design using SMPS (internal to the amp as it turns out, but it would be as likely to feedback into the mains as a wall wart if such an idea were possible), who would not accept that possibility, and neither would the professional studios who buy his product. Anyway, if such an idea were possible, any wallwart regardless if it were used for HiFi would do that and I have a house full of them! A wallwart "feeding back into the mains" doesn't know if its connected to a phone, a modem, router, light controller or an audio product. Indeed, since my mains is linked to my neighbours and the whole village via the national grid, it would be frightening to think of all the dirt on the mains spoiling my audio from the hundreds of wall warts connected.

If you meant that a "dirty" wall wart might feed noise into the DC it was supplying, that would be different but "back through the mains" is not a concept I would expect to see any competent electrical engineer agree with. As Jez points out, in principle a wall wart is no different to an internal power supply, except that the components are moved to another box. So if SMPS is the issue then any "feedback" idea would apply to the professional amp I referred to - and it doesnt. And an audio product using the same components as a wallwart, but internal to it (like a skybox) would have the same effect - since it is the components that would cause any problem, not where they are housed.

Perhaps I misinterpreted what you meant :scratch:

All very true and some good points there ;)

Even more to the point... if we are talking about noise being put back on to the mains then consider the power supply inside most power amps/integrateds. Their rectifiers are switching amps rather than a few hundred mA :eek:

[Alex Nikitin]

I'm not talking of SMPSs as such. My point of disagreement is the black and white assertion that the only important parameter is the cleanliness of the (DC) supply to the equipment. Things are not as simple as that in audio and a competent designer should at least acknowledge the potential for noise pollution back through the mains and its effect on the rest of the system. Of course, a SMPS may be (but not necessarily) more likely to do that than a good linear supply, but we are talking about "wall-warts" here, which tends to imply something small and cheap.

Anyway, I do believe that in audiophile circles, a "wall-wart" tends to be seen as cheap, nasty and penny-pinching, so that's a good reason to avoid them. Unless the product in question is not aimed at audiophiles, is priced at the 'cheap' end of the market, and the maker cares not a damn for how his or her product is viewed.

Hi Hugo,

What Jez says about "wall-wart" supplies in general is quite correct:


A wall wart supply consists of a transformer, rectifier and smoothing capacitor.... in exactly the same way as the internal supply in 99% of equipment. Just because it happens to be in a plastic encapsulation, has 3 pins and plugs directly into the wall is completely irrelevant to matters.

Granted the size and often quality of the smoothing cap will usually be less than in a decent internal supply (certainly not always though!) but when the equipment itself contains a much bigger smoothing capacitor this too is irrelevant. We now have a basic supply exactly the same as the one in any normal piece of equipment. Obviously in all I'm saying I am referring to low consumption items such as phono stages, line stages and headphone amps.

In my equipment it is further filtered and then regulated. It is now as good as it gets power quality wise.

There is a even a very good case for a wall wart being superior to an internal PSU. The AC magnetic field from the transformer is physically distanced from the sensitive electronics, as is the direct radiated interference from the switching of the rectifiers.

Indeed, there is a general suspicion and even dislike for wall warts amongst audiophiles, but that is due to the fact that it looks cheap to use a wall wart.
It actually has no deleterious effect in itself.

The hifi industry has in many cases milked the demand they themselves, with the help of reviewers and dealers in many instances, have created by false advertising claims made without any technical basis. This has tarnished wall warts to the point where they are often wrongly considered as not suitable for high end equipment at all.
Yes in some cases internal/external high quality non-wall-wart supplies are advantageous... such as when greater power is needed, or when something needs multiple voltages, such as valve gear needing HT and filament supply.

Also where you do not have the luxury of being able to design something to work perfectly with a wall wart, such as something you already own, which has been built with a cheap and inadequate means of internal filtration and regulation, well then, under those circumstances, a high quality linear regulated supply could help..... but would still be far inferior to anything in which the internals had been properly designed and built in the first place... even if powered by a wall wart!

;)

I am using linear "wall-warts" (with high quality components inside) for my phono stages and quite happy with the results. The problem is with the overall design and quality of the power supply and not with it's looks!

However, I agree with you on the other point. The "signature" of any power supply reflects back into the mains in a form of a highly distorted current, containing many harmonics, especially in case with inexpensive SMPS and energy-saving lamps. About 5 years ago I did a little set of current measurements for different supplies and bulbs. Here is the album of scope screen-shots (http://www.ant-audio.co.uk/Data/Currents/index.html). Perhaps I should re-do this experiment at some point with more examples and better pictures. Things are much worse for amplifiers and CD/DVD players as the supply current there contains also components of an amplified audio signal (for amplifiers) and transport servo currents (for CD/DVD players). I did quite a few experiments in the past on that matter and keep an eye on that aspect in my own designs.

Cheers

Alex

[Marco]

Even more to the point... if we are talking about noise being put back on to the mains then consider the power supply inside most power amps/integrateds. Their rectifiers are switching amps rather than a few hundred mA :eek:

Another good reason to use a nice valve amp, free of such nasties, (when properly designed with top-notch components inside) ;)

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Another good reason to use a nice valve amp, free of such nasties, (and properly designed with top-notch components inside) ;)

Marco.

Even valve amplifiers need ac turned into dc, and need it in amps not milliamps, although if they are also using valve rectification I grant you that means a linear supply. But it makes it trickier to get the wrinkles out. :)

Of course there is an implication that degraded mains will reflect into degraded dc in the devices it supplies, and I think it fair to say that there are some who believe well designed equipment will sort out any mains arriving within acceptable limits. That's anything coming out of the sockets in my house any hour of any day of any week (excluding power cuts and nuisance trips) :cool:

[Marco]

Even valve amplifiers need ac turned into dc, and need it in amps not milliamps, although if they are also using valve rectification I grant you that means a linear supply. But it makes it trickier to get the wrinkles out. :)


Sure, but not if the designer knows his onions! ;)

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Bugger

I knew I'd been buying my components at the wrong greengrocers. So with the right onions there's no limit to the capacitance that can be connected across a valve diode? :scratch:

Fortunatley, as you alude to, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Bet your Dac doesn't use valve rectification though. And I have 2 valve amps I'm using running off SMPS's :cool:

[Marco]

C'est un fait, mon ami, que tu sais bien, que les oignons sont très importants. Sans oignons, il est impossible pour le cerveau de fonctionner!

There is no valve rectification in my DAC (as it is a solid-state device) or any SMPS units anywhere in my system. I am 'linear throughout' :)

Marco.

[DSJR]

You wastrel of copper and steel, you :rofl:

[Arkless Electronics]

Hi Hugo,

What Jez says about "wall-wart" supplies in general is quite correct:



I am using linear "wall-warts" (with high quality components inside) for my phono stages and quite happy with the results. The problem is with the overall design and quality of the power supply and not with it's looks!

However, I agree with you on the other point. The "signature" of any power supply reflects back into the mains in a form of a highly distorted current, containing many harmonics, especially in case with inexpensive SMPS and energy-saving lamps. About 5 years ago I did a little set of current measurements for different supplies and bulbs. Here is the album of scope screen-shots (http://www.ant-audio.co.uk/Data/Currents/index.html). Perhaps I should re-do this experiment at some point with more examples and better pictures. Things are much worse for amplifiers and CD/DVD players as the supply current there contains also components of an amplified audio signal (for amplifiers) and transport servo currents (for CD/DVD players). I did quite a few experiments in the past on that matter and keep an eye on that aspect in my own designs.

Cheers

Alex

True but a side issue to what was being discussed.... Also in this day and age the proliferation of CFL lighting and SMPSU's (microwave ovens!) means that we cannot escape from the noise generated by them and so must design equipment to be insensitive to it.
I think that mains quality has become "fad of the month" for quite a while now and it's importance and relevance are vastly exaggerated to sell things like foo mains cables (which do not and can not offer any advantage) and mains regenerators etc (if it makes a difference then the equipment being powered wasn't well designed in the first place!).

[Arkless Electronics]

Another good reason to use a nice valve amp, free of such nasties, (when properly designed with top-notch components inside) ;)

Marco.

What makes you think valve amps are any different? Valve rectifiers lessen but don't eliminate the problem. Most valve amps don't use valve rectifiers though.... which have their own problems anyway.... A true choke input PSU will perform pretty good in these respects (even if SS rectification is used) but is very rare. Most that use a choke put it after a smoothing cap...

[Mr Kipling]

Sure, but not if the designer knows his onions! ;)

Marco.

Used to be quite a fan of the pickled variety; not silverskins though.

Well. . . That's - SHALLOT from me!

I do miss Les Dawson.

[YNWaN]

My phono uses a choke regulated power supply and that is SS throughout.

[Arkless Electronics]

My phono uses a choke regulated power supply and that is SS throughout.

I would be interested to see a circuit diagram for that.... The only things I've found in a quick google-ing show common mode chokes but this is a very different thing...

There is no reason of course why low power SS gear can't use a choke.... but it's very rare.

[YNWaN]

Oh, perhaps that is what I'm referring to - sorry, electronic design is not my forte. I know there are four inductors and four chokes in the power supply.

[Ammonite Audio]

True but a side issue to what was being discussed.... Also in this day and age the proliferation of CFL lighting and SMPSU's (microwave ovens!) means that we cannot escape from the noise generated by them and so must design equipment to be insensitive to it.
I think that mains quality has become "fad of the month" for quite a while now and it's importance and relevance are vastly exaggerated to sell things like foo mains cables (which do not and can not offer any advantage) and mains regenerators etc (if it makes a difference then the equipment being powered wasn't well designed in the first place!).

You are aware that this is predominantly a subjectivist forum, I presume?

[Arkless Electronics]

You are aware that this is predominantly a subjectivist forum, I presume?

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

:ner::ner::ner::ner:

[Marco]

What makes you think valve amps are any different? Valve rectifiers lessen but don't eliminate the problem. Most valve amps don't use valve rectifiers though.... which have their own problems anyway....

Sure - nothing is perfect, but as you say, valve rectifiers lessen the particular problem mentioned (which I highlighted in my last post). That's all I was saying - nothing more :)

However, the best valve power amps I've heard all use (optimally designed) valve rectifiers. As ever, I'm not interested in 'most'; only the best!


True but a side issue to what was being discussed.... Also in this day and age the proliferation of CFL lighting and SMPSU's (microwave ovens!) means that we cannot escape from the noise generated by them and so must design equipment to be insensitive to it.


A side-issue, perhaps, but nonetheless a very important and relevant one. I agree about designing equipment insensitive to said noise, but in my experience it is only possible to do this to an extent.

I've yet to hear a piece of audio equipment that is immune from the effects of noise, which is why every bit of kit I've owned has benefited to some extent, sonically, from being powered from a 'clean'/dedicated mains supply - whether that was achieved by the use of a quality mains regenerator and/or ensuring that one's hi-fi system is fed from its own dedicated supply (separate spur), isolated as far as possible from the house ring main, powering said noisy lighting and microwave ovens.

Experience tells me that paying proper attention to the above area of system set-up reaps significant dividends and often separates truly outstanding sounding systems from the merely good or average! :exactly:

Therefore, ignore it at your peril....

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Sure - nothing is perfect, but as you say, valve rectifiers lessen the particular problem mentioned (which I highlighted in my last post). That's all I was saying - nothing more :)

However, the best valve power amps I've heard all use (optimally designed) valve rectifiers. As ever, I'm not interested in 'most'; only the best!



A side-issue, perhaps, but nonetheless a very important and relevant one. I agree about designing equipment insensitive to said noise, but in my experience it is only possible to do this to an extent.

I've yet to hear a piece of audio equipment that is immune from the effects of noise, which is why every bit of kit I've owned has benefited to some extent, sonically, from being powered from a 'clean'/dedicated mains supply - whether that was achieved by the use of a quality mains regenerator and/or ensuring that one's hi-fi system is fed from its own dedicated supply (separate spur), isolated as far as possible from the house ring main, powering said noisy lighting and microwave ovens.

Experience tells me that paying proper attention to the above area of system set-up reaps significant dividends and often separates truly outstanding sounding systems from the merely good or average! :exactly:

Therefore, ignore it at your peril....

Marco.

I pretty much disagree with everything you say there.. If you really want to make the best of things you need to bury an old cold water tank 10 foot deep and run a 1" thick cable to it to which everything else is earthed ... .. This is called a "technical earth" Look it up... Could be the cheapest upgrade you make... if you don't count the back ache from the digging !! :eek: rather you than me! ;)

[Arkless Electronics]

oh erm..if there is anyone local who would like to see what can be done and then report back to AOS then they are very welcome :) I don't make claims I can't back up ;)

I am unfortunately fighting against a cabal of bullshit on matters electronics.... and quite a few are making their living from the erm.. lets just say "misinformation" that is rampant... I feel for Galileo.... No doubt I'll be slated for telling the truth here... come over and put my "theories" (solid electronics practice which would be accepted in any other academic field of electronics) to the test ;)

[Marco]

I pretty much disagree with everything you say there.. If you really want to make the best of things you need to bury an old cold water tank 10 foot deep and run a 1" thick cable to it to which everything else is earthed ... .. This is called a "technical earth" Look it up...

Disagree away, Jez. I'm only commenting from the results of my (considerable) experience in this area and what I have clearly heard, consistently and repeatedly, with a variety of different equipment, over the last 15 years, or so, experimenting with how hi-fi equipment reacts, sonically, when receiving power from the mains supply, via different routes.

Sure, I'm aware of what you're referring to with a 'technical earth' and I'm certain that would work very well. I never said that the separate spur(s) others and I have installed for our systems were the 'ultimate' solution, and couldn't be improved upon, but it does make a difference and is certainly far better than simply plugging all of your kit into the house ring main, which is polluted by interference from all the 'noisy' domestic appliances, computers, etc, connected to it. We must try to isolate our equipment from that noise as much as possible.

Furthermore, I know exactly how much of an improvement is gained (in terms of reduced noise) when a hi-fi system is supplied with its own dedicated earth (in conjunction with a dedicated mains spur, or spurs), as that is currently part of my own set-up. Whilst my dedicated earth may not be quite as good as what you describe above with a 'technical earth', the series of 5 x 8ft copper earth rods, plunged into the garden, which my system is connected to, is still extremely effective and provides a far better earth (indeed measured as such by the electrician who installed it) than that provided by the standard house one.

A project I've always intended to do, but haven't yet had the time to implement, is scrapping the earth rods for a solid-copper earth plate or lattice mat, as shown here: http://www.cablejoints.co.uk/upload/Copper_Earth_Plates_Copper_Lattice_Mats.pdf and burying it as deeply as possible into the ground. I would then connect my system to that instead, and then bury the plate (or mat) in conductive concrete, such as this, in order to preserve the efficacy of the earth: http://www.fmsudafix.com/products/conducrete/

I'll probably do it in the spring, as you mentioning the subject again has reminded me and reignited my interest... :eyebrows: Trust me, you've no idea just how much I'm 'into' this aspect of system optimisation or how much experimenting I've done with it!


oh erm..if there is anyone local who would like to see what can be done and then report back to AOS then they are very welcome I don't make claims I can't back up...


Ditto. I never write anything on a hi-fi forum that I can't back up either!

When I want to demonstrate the difference it makes having a dedicated mains supply (and/or earth) for a hi-fi system, I'm fortunate in having a double wall socket, fitted right next to my system, which is supplied from the house ring main, and so I can quickly and easily swap between powering my system from its dedicated, hard-wired, mains spur (and/or earth), to having it supplied from the wall socket, and compare the results, sonically. Honestly, you'd have to be deaf not to hear the difference - subtle it is not!! ;)

If you ever pop round, I'll demonstrate it to you, too. In my system, the improvement is obvious, and so a total no-brainer :)

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Jez
I apologise this is drifting away from the real purpose of this thread - establishing demand for a MC headamp. However, it is an area of interest, and maybe you could start a new thread which explains how mains is converted into the DC needed by all these pieces of equipment, and why, in theoretical and engineering terms, the quality of the mains (within limits) wouldn't affect the quality of the DC on the rails if the regulation is properly designed. (I had a version done for me on a piece of A4 by another engineer, but I only half understood it, it was specific to a particular design which is inherently insensitive to noise on the rails, and its pretty scrappy)

(Within limits Marco, means you couldn't plug a UK transformer into the Japanese supply - not the variations caused by having fractionally less resistance in an iec cable).

It would also need to cover why "the grunge" is there anyway - regardless of how you power the hifi item being discussed (like your headamp) - and how the headamp power supply can cope with a range of grunge. (Whilst personally I would like to see this done with numbers and formulae, my deliberate choice of language is how I think it needs to be presented for those of us without the technical training).

As a subjectivist, I would note, that if I can substitute the rectification part of a power supply with a battery and hear no difference, then no amount of mains muck is relevant at all to that piece of equipment :)

I would also note, based on my first such experiment, it helps if the smoothing capacitor on the dc input to the device has an adequate voltage rating. Only a numpty like me would put 2 series golf trolley batteries on a 24v input with a 25v rated capacitor (batteries are about 12.8v each so I got 25.6v and a spectacular explosion of the electrolytic in question - now replaced with a 35v rated item!)

And nice try getting someone to dig your garden :lol:

[Arkless Electronics]

Disagree away, Jez. I'm only commenting from the results of my (considerable) experience in this area and what I have clearly heard, consistently and repeatedly, with a variety of different equipment, over the last 15 years, or so, experimenting with how hi-fi equipment reacts, sonically, when receiving power from the mains supply, via different routes.

Sure, I'm aware of what you're referring to with a 'technical earth' and I'm certain that would work very well. I never said that the separate spur(s) others and I have installed for our systems were the 'ultimate' solution, and couldn't be improved upon, but it does make a difference and is certainly far better than simply plugging all of your kit into the house ring main, which is polluted by interference from all the 'noisy' domestic appliances, computers, etc, connected to it. We must try to isolate our equipment from that noise as much as possible.

Furthermore, I know exactly how much of an improvement is gained (in terms of reduced noise) when a hi-fi system is supplied with its own dedicated earth (in conjunction with a dedicated mains spur, or spurs), as that is currently part of my own set-up. Whilst my dedicated earth may not be quite as good as what you describe above with a 'technical earth', the series of 5 x 8ft copper earth rods, plunged into the garden, which my system is connected to, is still extremely effective and provides a far better earth (indeed measured as such by the electrician who installed it) than that provided by the standard house one.

A project I've always intended to do, but haven't yet had the time to implement, is scrapping the earth rods for a solid-copper earth plate or lattice mat, as shown here: http://www.cablejoints.co.uk/upload/Copper_Earth_Plates_Copper_Lattice_Mats.pdf and burying it as deeply as possible into the ground. I would then connect my system to that instead, and then bury the plate (or mat) in conductive concrete, such as this, in order to preserve the efficacy of the earth: http://www.fmsudafix.com/products/conducrete/

I'll probably do it in the spring, as you mentioning the subject again has reminded me and reignited my interest... :eyebrows: Trust me, you've no idea just how much I'm 'into' this aspect of system optimisation or how much experimenting I've done with it!



Ditto. I never write anything on a hi-fi forum that I can't back up either!

When I want to demonstrate the difference it makes having a dedicated mains supply (and/or earth) for a hi-fi system, I'm fortunate in having a double wall socket, fitted right next to my system, which is supplied from the house ring main, and so I can quickly and easily swap between powering my system from its dedicated, hard-wired, mains spur (and/or earth), to having it supplied from the wall socket, and compare the results, sonically. Honestly, you'd have to be deaf not to hear the difference - subtle it is not!! ;)

If you ever pop round, I'll demonstrate it to you, too. In my system, the improvement is obvious, and so a total no-brainer :)

Marco.

It sounds like you already have a technical earth! Make sure the cable to it is VERY thick!

[Arkless Electronics]

Jez
I apologise this is drifting away from the real purpose of this thread - establishing demand for a MC headamp. However, it is an area of interest, and maybe you could start a new thread which explains how mains is converted into the DC needed by all these pieces of equipment, and why, in theoretical and engineering terms, the quality of the mains (within limits) wouldn't affect the quality of the DC on the rails if the regulation is properly designed. (I had a version done for me on a piece of A4 by another engineer, but I only half understood it, it was specific to a particular design which is inherently insensitive to noise on the rails, and its pretty scrappy)

(Within limits Marco, means you couldn't plug a UK transformer into the Japanese supply - not the variations caused by having fractionally less resistance in an iec cable).

It would also need to cover why "the grunge" is there anyway - regardless of how you power the hifi item being discussed (like your headamp) - and how the headamp power supply can cope with a range of grunge. (Whilst personally I would like to see this done with numbers and formulae, my deliberate choice of language is how I think it needs to be presented for those of us without the technical training).

As a subjectivist, I would note, that if I can substitute the rectification part of a power supply with a battery and hear no difference, then no amount of mains muck is relevant at all to that piece of equipment :)

I would also note, based on my first such experiment, it helps if the smoothing capacitor on the dc input to the device has an adequate voltage rating. Only a numpty like me would put 2 series golf trolley batteries on a 24v input with a 25v rated capacitor (batteries are about 12.8v each so I got 25.6v and a spectacular explosion of the electrolytic in question - now replaced with a 35v rated item!)

And nice try getting someone to dig your garden :lol:

I think I've probably explained enough already on this subject in amongst various threads.....

Are you sure that capacitor was not reverse polarity? A 25 V cap with 25V on it is not ideal but should have been fine!

[Oldpinkman]

I think I've probably explained enough already on this subject in amongst various threads.....

Are you sure that capacitor was not reverse polarity? A 25 V cap with 25V on it is not ideal but should have been fine!

No it was the original - had worked fine with the 24v wallwart. Just that bit too close I guess. lovely green goo everywhere. :)

[Marco]

It sounds like you already have a technical earth! Make sure the cable to it is VERY thick!

Is 10mm enough? That's what I'm using :)

Sorry, I didn't realise that what I had was effectively a 'technical earth'. Whilst I've heard the term used before, I wasn't exactly sure what the process involved.

However, I suspect that upgrading my earth rods for (said mentioned) copper plate or lattice mat, will provide further dividends, due to increasing the surface area of the earth. I've also discovered that keeping the soil around the earth rods moist, and therefore maximising conductivity, is crucial, which is why I had considered using the 'Conducrete' material, and also ensuring that the plate or mat I use in future is buried into the ground as deeply as possible.

Honestly, for that reason, I can hear that my system sounds better on rainy days (when the soil around the earth rods is wet, with the resulting lowering of impedance on the supply), than it does on dry days - I kid you not! ;)

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Is 10mm enough? That's what I'm using :)

Sorry, I didn't realise that what I had was effectively a 'technical earth'. Whilst I've heard the term used before, I wasn't exactly sure what the process involved.

However, I suspect that upgrading my earth rods for (said mentioned) copper plate or lattice mat, will provide further dividends, due to increasing the surface area of the earth. I've also discovered that keeping the soil around the earth rods moist, and therefore maximising conductivity, is crucial, which is why I had considered using the 'Conducrete' material, and also ensuring that the plate or mat I use in future is buried into the ground as deeply as possible.

Honestly, for that reason, I can hear that my system sounds better on rainy days (when the soil around the earth rods is wet, with the resulting lowering of impedance on the supply), than it does on dry days - I kid you not! ;)

Marco.

It should be about adequate. The thicker and shorter the cable is the better...

[Marco]

Cool... Yeah, that's what I thought :)

Hey, the more you get to know me by posting here, the more you'll realise the lengths I'll go to in order to ensure that my system produces the best possible sound... I can assure you, in that respect, *nothing* is ever too much effort or bother!! :D

;)

Marco.

[synsei]

Is 10mm enough? That's what I'm using :)

Sorry, I didn't realise that what I had was effectively a 'technical earth'. Whilst I've heard the term used before, I wasn't exactly sure what the process involved.

However, I suspect that upgrading my earth rods for (said mentioned) copper plate or lattice mat, will provide further dividends, due to increasing the surface area of the earth. I've also discovered that keeping the soil around the earth rods moist, and therefore maximising conductivity, is crucial, which is why I had considered using the 'Conducrete' material, and also ensuring that the plate or mat I use in future is buried into the ground as deeply as possible.

Honestly, for that reason, I can hear that my system sounds better on rainy days (when the soil around the earth rods is wet, with the resulting lowering of impedance on the supply), than it does on dry days - I kid you not! ;)

Marco.

Marco, go make yourself a nice cup of tea and sit and listen to some choons dude. You've got it bad my friend, I think my missus would probably book me in to see a shrink if I ever started talking about watering the garden to make the hifi sound better... :lol: (all meant in good fun btw ;) )

[Marco]

Marco, go make yourself a nice cup of tea and sit and listen to some choons dude.


Lol - that's a daily occurrence, dude, chez-Marco (as I work from home and so can listen to music as much, or as loudly, as I like). Got some Daft Punk on right now - next up is Goldfrapp! :)


You've got it bad my friend, I think my missus would probably book me in to see a shrink if I ever started talking about watering the garden to make the hifi sound better...

What would she think if I said that we train the cats to 'go' around where the earth rods are, and depending on what type of cat food we give them, it affects the conductivity of their piss? Felix is best so far! :lol:

In reality, of course, I simply let nature do its job, so the only time the garden is 'watered', is when it rains! Me? I'm usually tucked up nice and warm inside listening to choons (along with enjoying the sonic benefits provided by the wet soil)... ;)

Marco.

[synsei]

Lol - that's a daily occurrence, dude, chez-Marco (as I work from home and so can listen to music as much, or as loudly, as I like). Got some Daft Punk on right now - next up is Goldfrapp! :)



What would she think if I said that we train the cats to 'go' around where the earth rods are, and depending on what type of cat food we give them, it affects the conductivity of their piss? Felix is best so far! :lol:

In reality, of course, I simply let nature do its job, so the only time the garden is 'watered', is when it rains! Me? I'm usually tucked up nice and warm inside listening to choons (along with enjoying the sonic benefits provided by the wet soil)... ;)

Marco.

I think if I suggested something similar I may well find myself being served cat food for dinner that evening... :lol:

[Marco]

I was going to mention something about 'water sports', but I'll leave it.... :eyebrows:

Marco.

[brian2957]

I don't need to water my earth rod , the ground is always wet up here :lol:

[Marco]

Haha, aye - but I bet that doesn't stop you from 'tossing yer wee caber'! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[brian2957]

Only when the sun's shining matey ( app. 2 days a year ) whether I need it or not :eyebrows:

[Marco]

Lol - best leave it there, or otherwise the thread drift will go off on a rather different tangent! ;)

Marco.

[brian2957]

Seriously though , I agree with you when you state that your system seems to sound better when it's raining and the ground is soaking wet . I thought it was just me . :mental:
I started reading RA and applying his ideas about the same time as you . I was having a clearout today and found some of his calalogues dating back to 1998 .

[Marco]

Lol - well it will if you've got earth rods fitted.... :)

Unfortunately these days, RA is more often full of bullshit, than anything else, but the info contained in his little booklet entitled 'The Power and the Glory' is spot on!

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Back on thread. The head amp lives! :cool:

[Marco]

Ace! Have you named it Esmeralda? :D

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

First impressions are very promising indeed! ;)

Using it right now with an Arkless 640P set to MM, hopefully get my valve phono stage running later...

[Barry]

Pissing on your earth rods makes sense. The best piss is that from a camel; they are superbly adapted to retaining water and removing salt, so much so, that their urine is full of salt and appears ‘white’. Since salt is an excellent electrolyte, the best pee is camel pee!

[Marco]

Right, I'm off to get a camel... Do they have them in Aldi?

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Looks like I'll have to start a new thread for this.... this ones getting pissed on!

[Marco]

Was that pun intended? :D

All you have to say is move the off-topic stuff to a separate thread, and your wish is my command.... ;)

Is that what you want?

Marco.

P.S remember that this is a 'free for all' section of the forum, where thread drift often occurs. If you want a discussion relating to a product you sell, or are going to sell, protected from such thread drift, and for it to remain rigidly on-topic, then start it in the trade room :)

[Arkless Electronics]

Indeed it was intended! Yes I was joking about the thread to... But I will start one in the trade room as I do now have something to sell head amp wise....


Was that pun intended? :D

All you have to say is move the off-topic stuff to a separate thread, and your wish is my command.... ;)

Is that what you want?

Marco.

P.S remember that this is a 'free for all' section of the forum, where thread drift often occurs. If you want a discussion relating to a product you sell, or are going to sell, protected from such thread drift, and for it to remain rigidly on-topic, then start it in the trade room :)

[Chris]

I use a Jfets Hagerman Piccolo head amp with its power supply parts and switches removed, powered from an Rcore tranny and Salas LV Shunt regulator in front of a CRCRC powered Salas HV Shunt regulated Audio Innovations MM phono stage circuit ( NOS Tungsram 83 and Siemens 88 valves ), Russian teflons and Schinkoh resistors throughout and it sounds ace to me. Trouble is I don´t know what does what and I can only compare it with a Linn Linto I have been loaned and my previous Black Cube so not much use to anyone, I guess. I like to think I have punch with texture or should that be texture with punch ?

[Arkless Electronics]

Well my head amp is sounding good so far and I have a few more ideas to try yet ;) I've converted my homebrewed Audio Research SP8 based valve phono stage to the final SP8 Mk2 rev.7 spec now.... can't say I can hear any difference!