View Full Version : Furutech or Eichmann or Neutrik or WBT RCA plugs
Hi! I'm thinking of making a new pair of interconnects. I use Mogami 2549 with cheap Neutriks but been wanting to try a better plug.
Looking into Eichmann Bullets or Neutrik Profi but seen a few Furutech lately that are looking interesting. FP-126, FP-160 or FP-104.
Has anyone tried any Furutech plugs and are they recommended?
What about those newish WBT 0114?
Trying to keeps things with a low budget...
Thanks!
Hi
As it happens I have been doing a rather large interconnect project based on something to be launched very soon, as part of that I listened to many RCA's plugs all on the same cable
Eichmann Silver
Eichmann Copper
WBT Silver polymer body
WBT silver metal body
Audio Note Silver Plated
Furutech FP-126
the best was the last one, the solderless version where the cable is held down with tiny screws
here it is on the end of a cable, I do like the eichmanns and the WBT's but I guess if you want the best it costs!
I did not believe the furutechs would sound best but was told by a friend they were the best he had heard, up until then even though I sell them I had never taken any notice.
If your budget cannot stretch to those then I recommend the eichmann silver bullets around £90 for 4
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/2248-thickbox_default/mcru-no-1-stereo-interconnect.jpg
Wakefield Turntables
29-10-2013, 19:45
Eichmann silver bullet. They do exactly what they should and have none of the bling bull$shit.
Thank you for your replies!
My budget cannot stretch to Silver Bullets. It's copper only sadly, preferably under £50 for 4...
Rega seems to be using Hicon CM13 on their new Couple. Do you think it could be worth a try or would I be better with Eichmann Bullets or Neutrik Profi?
Those carbon Furutech's look amazing, I'm sure those interconnects will sound amazing, but are way out of my league. The FP-126 are the cheaper small ones they use in their AG-12 tonearm cable, though in rhodium coat, not gold...
This is the one:
http://www.furutech.com/2013/01/26/3317/
or these:
http://www.furutech.com/2013/01/26/1033/
http://www.furutech.com/2013/02/19/3310/
Wakefield Turntables
29-10-2013, 20:44
I would cousel that you use Eichmann copper bullets, eBay could be your friend, they come up quite cheaply from time to time.
I did not believe the furutechs would sound best but was told by a friend they were the best he had heard, up until then even though I sell them I had never taken any notice.
The problem with the Furutechs is that (for some reason) they only use silver-plated copper conductors, as opposed to the solid-silver offerings of other top RCA plugs.
Whether the negative effect of that is outweighed by the advantages of other aspects of their construction, such as you have outlined, is anyone's guess, but it's the reason why in the end I chose to use Eichmann Silver Bullets, on the end of my Yannis tonearm cable, even though I have the Furutech CF-DIN(R) DIN plug, fitted at the other end of the cable, which matches the FP-126s.
Marco.
The problem with the Furutechs is that (for some reason) they only use silver-plated copper conductors, as opposed to the solid-silver offerings of other top RCA plugs.
Whether the negative effect of that is outweighed by the advantages of other aspects of their construction, such as you have outlined, is anyone's guess, but it's the reason why in the end I chose to use Eichmann Silver Bullets, on the end of my Yannis tonearm cable, even though I have the Furutech CF-DIN(R) DIN plug, fitted at the other end of the cable, which matches the FP-126s.
Marco.
I suspect you did not choose but Yannis chose for you as he did with me when I ordered my cables, I ended up with eichmanns too, the carbon fibre RCA's are very good indeed in my system, conductivity of metals is all well and good but it's the sonics that count, as we both discovered with the ultimates, rhodium is way down the scale compared to silver, gold and copper but on the end of certain pieces of wire it out performs everything else!
Sure, I totally agree with the last bit. Essentially, it's all about synergy!
However, all of the plugs on the Yannis cable were chosen by me (down to even which type of outer shell I wanted on the Eichmanns), as were certain aspects of the construction of the cable itself.
Marco.
The problem with the Furutechs is that (for some reason) they only use silver-plated copper conductors, as opposed to the solid-silver offerings of other top RCA plugs.
Whether the negative effect of that is outweighed by the advantages of other aspects of their construction, such as you have outlined, is anyone's guess, but it's the reason why in the end I chose to use Eichmann Silver Bullets, on the end of my Yannis tonearm cable, even though I have the Furutech CF-DIN(R) DIN plug, fitted at the other end of the cable, which matches the FP-126s.
Marco.
They don't actually Marco. The FP126's are gold plated and the CF126Rs are Rhodium plated. They don't do a silver plated option. Also, why would solid silver plugs be any better (sounding) than pure solid copper? The impedance of the ground connection needs to be lower than that of the signal connection, beyond that, a decent copper plug has ZERO disadvantages technically or sonically speaking in my own opinion. The best IC's I do use Rhodium plated copper and are none the worse for it ;)
As to the OP, well vfm and durability plus electrical contact wise, the FP126Gs take some beating. I use them and the Eichmanns on my Reference Series cables with good reason but the Eichmanns are more expensive.
RobbieGong
29-10-2013, 22:33
Eichmann Silver bullets - highly recommended !
Hi Paul,
They don't actually Marco. The FP126's are gold plated and the CF126Rs are Rhodium plated.
Ah, thanks for the correction. I presumed that the pic David posted (which shows 'silver coloured' conductor pins on the plugs) was of the FP126s. I also mistakenly assumed that said 'silver colour' was due to silver, not rhodium plating.
Also, why would solid silver plugs be any better (sounding) than pure solid copper? The impedance of the ground connection needs to be lower than that of the signal connection, beyond that, a decent copper plug has ZERO disadvantages technically or sonically speaking in my own opinion.
Well, of course the obvious thing is that silver is a better electrical conductor than copper. I agree though that the difference is not usually audible and that other factors in the design of an RCA plug can make a more profound improvement, sonically.
However, having compared silver Eichmann Bullet Plugs with the (otherwise identical) copper ones, and also those in that respect from WBT, it is quite clear in my system that the solid-silver plugs from both manufacturers are significantly the better sounding :)
Marco.
Hi Paul,
Ah, thanks for the correction. I presumed that the pic David posted (which shows 'silver coloured' conductor pins on the plugs) was of the FP126s. I also mistakenly assumed that said 'silver colour' was due to silver, not rhodium plating.
Well, of course the obvious thing is that silver is a better electrical conductor than copper. I agree though that the difference is not usually audible and that other factors in the design of an RCA plug can make a more profound improvement, sonically.
However, having compared silver Eichmann Bullet Plugs with the (otherwise identical) copper ones, and also those in that respect from WBT, it is quite clear in my system that the solid-silver plugs from both manufacturers are significantly the better sounding :)
Marco.
Fair dinkums ;) It's what works for you that matters in your system...system synergy and all that jazz :guitar:
Yes indeed-io, muchacho! :gig:
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
30-10-2013, 07:33
I recommend steering clear of the WBT NextGen plugs. They may sound good, but they are a nightmare to use, not just because you need finger space around them to tighten the barrels, but also I find that with some RCA sockets (which are fine with any other plug) the WBTs often fail to get a proper ground connection.
In summary, the WBTs are good sounding connectors, but quite possibly the least useable things that I've ever introduced into my system.
I agree that WBTs can be a bastard if you don't line them up exactly so before tightening, but if done properly they make a fantastic bond and stay put. It's all about getting them dead straight.
All my Yannis single-ended cables (such as I have since most of my system is balanced) have 0110Ag plugs and I'll stick with them.
Hi Hugo,
I recommend steering clear of the WBT NextGen plugs. They may sound good, but they are a nightmare to use, not just because you need finger space around them to tighten the barrels, but also I find that with some RCA sockets (which are fine with any other plug) the WBTs often fail to get a proper ground connection.
That's a very valid point, and I also have experienced that problem in a friend's system. Therefore, potential buyers of WBTs should take note.
Fortunately, the sockets on my equipment are well spaced out, and I can easily get behind my system, when aligning the plugs onto the sockets and locking up the collars on the WBTs (as there's plenty of room behind there - something I always insist on when setting up a system inside a room), so I have no issues in that respect.
One thing that often is not considered when buying plugs is how well the design is liable to 'mate' with the existing sockets on your equipment, and thus achieve an optimal mechanical connection. I guess it could be argued that it's a bit unfair expecting a bespoke-designed plug from one manufacturer to optimally fit a socket from another manufacturer, which it was never designed to be used with in the first place....
That's why I'm a big advocate of buying BOTH plugs and sockets from the same manufacturer, providing that the latter will fit properly on your equipment. However, that done, you will almost certainly achieve a better connection than would be the case when 'mixing and matching' plugs and sockets from different sources, as items from the same manufacturer will have been designed to work together from the ground up.
Unquestionably, in my experience, WBT plugs work best with WBT sockets, and ditto with Eichmanns. You may find that the knock-on effect of doing this, if you can, is not only achieving a better (more secure) connection, but also improved sound quality! ;)
Marco.
I like the WBT types, & once you're used to locking them correctly, they objectively make a much tighter ground connection than non-locking plugs.
Sometimes though, I've had to put a piece of thin card in between the sockets on units where the RCA sockets are close together e.g. on my Bushmaster DAC.
Clive197
30-10-2013, 11:26
I have Eichmann Silver Bullets on both my digital coaxial cables.
wee tee cee
30-10-2013, 17:17
read the thread last night and plumbed in a Eichman silver bullet Mark Grant IC swapping out a WBT silver IC MG (between DAC and PRE). Swings and roundabouts both excellent cables/plugs undecided which I prefer-subtle differences between both.
Will swap back and see whats what!
Solder direct if you can. If not, BNC or XLR. :sofa:
Clive197
31-10-2013, 12:07
Unquestionably, in my experience, WBT plugs work best with WBT sockets, and ditto with Eichmanns. You may find that the knock-on effect of doing this, if you can, is not only achieving a better (more secure) connection, but also improved sound quality! ;)
Marco.
Hi Marco
May I ask how you know who makes the sockets in your gear. I don't have a clue who makes the ones in my Cyrus, Oppo or Trichord.
Clive
realysm42
31-10-2013, 14:49
I think he buys both, not just the plugs but the sockets as well to ensure they're from the same manufacturer.
Ali Tait
31-10-2013, 15:34
..and has them fitted to his kit.
Spot on, chaps.
My Croft preamp is full of almost entirely bespoke parts, right down to the RCA sockets, all of which I select (of the highest quality) and have fitted by either Nick G, Anthony TD or Duncan (Tubehunter), depending on where I am and who is available! :)
In terms of sockets, there is mixture of Eichmanns and WBT Nextgen fitted, depending on the relevant application. It should be noted that very little commercially produced equipment will have sockets of that quality fitted, simply due to cost constraints. Most amplifiers, for example, will have the generic type gold-plated (over brass) sockets, supplied as standard.
All of my kit has either solid-copper or solid-silver sockets fitted throughout (with the same plugs to match on the cables I use).
Marco.
Clive197
31-10-2013, 20:51
Spot on, chaps.
My Croft preamp is full of almost entirely bespoke parts, right down to the RCA sockets, all of which I select (of the highest quality) and have fitted by either Nick G, Anthony TD or Duncan (Tubehunter), depending on where I am and who is available! :)
In terms of sockets, there is mixture of Eichmanns and WBT Nextgen fitted, depending on the relevant application. It should be noted that very little commercially produced equipment will have sockets of that quality fitted, simply due to cost constraints. Most amplifiers, for example, will have the generic type gold-plated (over brass) sockets, supplied as standard.
All of my kit has either solid-copper or solid-silver sockets fitted throughout (with the same plugs to match on the cables I use).
Marco.
Now there's dedication. :pat:
I've got Eichmann and wbt. I can't hear any difference. But, I can hear that both are better than the older fashioned metal laden rca's from previous generations. I wasn't impressed bt cardas connectors even though well made and of good quality. Technology had overtaken that design hence stick with Eichmann, cheaper than wbt.
Neutrik Pro-Fi's; Eichmann 'bullet plugs' are nasty, crappy little things.
Neutrik Pro-Fi's; Eichmann 'bullet plugs' are nasty, crappy little things.
I will be better able to comment on this tomorrow Barry when my new IC's arrive in the post. They are in effect RFC Reference Mercury's which differ from my existing Reference Neptune's in so much as the Mercury's are fitted with Eichmann silver bullets whereas the Neptune's sport Furutech FP126 plugs...
Peter Stockwell
16-11-2013, 06:56
They are in effect RFC Reference Mercury's which differ from my existing Reference Neptune's in so much as the Mercury's are fitted with Eichmann silver bullets whereas the Neptune's sport Furutech FP126 plugs...
I think the wire is different, too.
Furutech Hyper-balanced μOFC twin conductor cable (80pcs 0.18mm), double shielded in cotton spacer/damping. Superb quality ultra pure conductors treated with Furutech’s Alpha process. The cotton spacer not only helps to keep capacitance low but it also provides excellent damping to eliminate microphonic issues
Furutech alpha treated 20 AWG μOFC single core conductor coax utilising foamed polyethylene dielectric for low capacitance which helps maintain detail and upper frequency performance
I had an exchange with Paul, and decided that FP126R on the end of the Neptune was my ticket to happiness, short of going to Venus.
Neutrik Pro-Fi's; Eichmann 'bullet plugs' are nasty, crappy little things.
Sorry, Barry, I vehemently disagree, as extensive practical experience of using them in my own system proves otherwise.
Like I said earlier, if you 'mate' plugs with the matching sockets from the same manufacturer, many of the problems you're inferring disappear... Have you ever tried using the Eichmanns with their matching (solid copper) sockets, as shown below?
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/9849/be19.jpg
I can assure you that the result is a very snug and secure fit, as well as superb sound :)
Don't get me wrong, I like the Neutriks - they are my budget favourites - but the reality is (once you've done some relevant comparisons), they are notably outperformed by Eichmanns, WBTs, when the latter are used in conjunction with their matching sockets, and no doubt also the Furutechs mentioned earlier.
Marco.
Most people simply cannot be arsed fannying around changing RCA inlets etc and TBH the sonic gains are mostly small.
As regards some being able to hear the difference between a WBT and Eichmann of the same material with the same cable, poppycock. :)
So are you calling me a liar, then? Because I can clearly hear the difference the different plugs make in my system - and I'm not alone. Mark (YNWaN) even did a write-up about it in Strokes of Genius.
Furthermore, the members of AoS are not "most people"; many of them are experienced and dedicated enthusiasts, striving for excellence with their systems, and so all these so-called 'small' things add up!!
Marco.
So are you calling me a liar, then? Because I can clearly hear the difference.
Furthermore, the members of AoS are not "most people"; many of them strive for excellence with their systems, and so all these so-called 'small' things add up!!
Marco.
Good for you dude, if you can hear a difference between 2 silver plugs but different brands that's fine, you are not most people though, many audiophiles are nowhere near as obsessive about getting every last drop of information out and in the real world would not tamper with any of their gear, tweakers are a minority bunch, nothing wrong with a bit of DIY of course and it's thanks to AOS and other forums that people can get help and assistance with this sort of thing. No I am not calling you a liar and to say that is rather confrontational which is not like you at all. :lol:
And don't go editing my posts again otherwise my 2 blow up dolls will be offended :ner:
Most people simply cannot be arsed fannying around changing RCA inlets etc and TBH the sonic gains are mostly small.
As regards some being able to hear the difference between a WBT and Eichmann of the same material with the same cable, poppycock. :)
What I infer from your post then Dave is that people buy the various types and styles of plug for their aesthetic value, is that what you are saying? If so then Eichmanns are likely to sit near the bottom of most peoples lists as they are not exactly 'lookers'. Of course this is patently not the case therefore they must be selling on their performance merits. You do come out with some gems every now and then... :lol:
What I infer from your post then Dave is that people buy the various types and styles of plug for their aesthetic value, is that what you are saying? If so then Eichmanns are likely to sit near the bottom of most peoples lists as they are not exactly 'lookers'.
The human race has lost the ability to think for themselves Dave, so need to be told what to buy whether by review or recommendation from someone who already uses them or a dealer (in general terms of course) the looks are important to some people which is rather strange I think as you cannot see them when they are installed, you can always put some nice heatshrink over the bullets to hide their ugly looks, btw I see your new avatar so I am smiling whilst I type this.
The human race has lost the ability to think for themselves Dave, so need to be told what to buy whether by review or recommendation from someone who already uses them or a dealer (in general terms of course) the looks are important to some people which is rather strange I think as you cannot see them when they are installed, you can always put some nice heatshrink over the bullets to hide their ugly looks, btw I see your new avatar so I am smiling whilst I type this.
A rather cynical attitude if I may say so. We assess our environment using a number of parameters, one such being the gathering of information. I suspect that I, like many other members, balance personal discoveries with experience gleaned from our fellow members. Any dealer who attempted to tell me what to buy would swiftly lose my business...
Good for you dude, if you can hear a difference between 2 silver plugs but different brands that's fine, you are not most people though, many audiophiles are nowhere near as obsessive about getting every last drop of information out and in the real world would not tamper with any of their gear, tweakers are a minority bunch, nothing wrong with a bit of DIY of course and it's thanks to AOS and other forums that people can get help and assistance with this sort of thing. No I am not calling you a liar and to say that is rather confrontational which is not like you at all. :lol:
And don't go editing my posts again otherwise my 2 blow up dolls will be offended :ner:
That's fine. I usually only become 'confrontational' when people rather rudely dismiss my valid experiences as "poppycock". Avoid that, and you'll be ok ;)
Marco.
What I infer from your post then Dave is that people buy the various types and styles of plug for their aesthetic value, is that what you are saying? If so then Eichmanns are likely to sit near the bottom of most peoples lists as they are not exactly 'lookers'. Of course this is patently not the case therefore they must be selling on their performance merits. You do come out with some gems every now and then... :lol:
Indeed - the irony is astonishing, considering that if anyone dares 'diss' anything he sells, he's all over it like a rash, posting HUGE pictures and any other promotional blurb he can, in an attempt to defend his commercial position!! :doh: :lol:
Get real, Brooky!
Marco.
Some people might say that audio cables costing more than, say, £50 are a rip-off, given the cost of materials and labour, and the fact that few people can reliably distinguish between cheap and costly cables in blind tests. I could not possibly comment on such outrageous suggestions.
"Some people" are perfectly entitled to their opinion, but it doesn't mean it is right ;)
Marco.
For those who missed it first time round, here's a link to Mark's excellent write-up on his comparisons between four popular 'high-end' RCA plugs, using the same cables, as a reference:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?17518-Mark-Grant-Cables-A-Tale-of-Four-Connectors!
Seems I'm not alone in hearing these differences... Of course, it's all "poppycock" ;)
Marco.
Some people might say that audio cables costing more than, say, £50 are a rip-off
We've been here before, Joe. Everything has a market value decided on by demand and availability. Paying any money for a cable is not a 'rip-off' if you know what you're buying and are prepared to pay the price asked. That's fair trade.
It's only a rip-off if the product is not made of the materials claimed or is shoddily assembled.
We've been here before, Joe. Everything has a market value decided on by demand and availability. Paying any money for a cable is not a 'rip-off' if you know what you're buying and are prepared to pay the price asked. That's fair trade.
It's only a rip-off if the product is not made of the materials claimed or is shoddily assembled.
Indeed. I was just amused by someone who sells cables costing £££s claiming that most punters can't really hear (or aren't bothered about) the differing sounds of various plugs. Looked like a gun/foot interface to me!
Most people simply cannot be arsed fannying around changing RCA inlets etc and TBH the sonic gains are mostly small.
As regards some being able to hear the difference between a WBT and Eichmann of the same material with the same cable, poppycock. :)
A BIG sorry to all those who can hear a difference, I can't!
A BIG sorry to all those who can hear a difference, I can't!
I'm far too lazy to try.
MikeMusic
16-11-2013, 11:48
Some people might say that audio cables costing more than, say, £50 are a rip-off, given the cost of materials and labour, and the fact that few people can reliably distinguish between cheap and costly cables in blind tests. I could not possibly comment on such outrageous suggestions.
If I may quote Mr. Dilbert
Ignorance is not an opinion
:)
Indeed. I was just amused by someone who sells cables costing £££s claiming that most punters can't really hear (or aren't bothered about) the differing sounds of various plugs. Looked like a gun/foot interface to me!
My point exactly, which appears to have escaped David :)
Marco.
walpurgis
16-11-2013, 11:51
Some people might say that audio cables costing more than, say, £50 are a rip-off, given the cost of materials and labour, and the fact that few people can reliably distinguish between cheap and costly cables in blind tests. I could not possibly comment on such outrageous suggestions.
I don't blind test anything, but if I bung a cheap cable into the system, the negative effects are apparent immediately. That applies to interconnects and speaker cables. Also, digital interconnects, which you'd think would be immune to making sound changes, but they do and vary in ability a lot!
I don't blind test anything, but if I bung a cheap cable into the system, the negative effects are apparent immediately. That applies to interconnects and speaker cables. Also, digital interconnect, which you'd think would be immune to making sound changes, but they do and vary in ability a lot!
Well, quite. I had the same experience with a well-regarded make of interconnect. My experience with this cable varied considerably from most people's, but I could definitely hear a difference, even if it was a negative one!.
MikeMusic
16-11-2013, 11:54
We've been here before, Joe. Everything has a market value decided on by demand and availability. Paying any money for a cable is not a 'rip-off' if you know what you're buying and are prepared to pay the price asked. That's fair trade.
It's only a rip-off if the product is not made of the materials claimed or is shoddily assembled.
Similar to bikes
£300 doesn't get you that much and huge amounts of people regard that as expensive.
£1500 is considered by many to be entry level.
£7000 will get you something you can beat
:)
Depends how seriously you take your cycling
Talking to a good customer yesterday about another customer we both know who spent
THREE GRAND
on a 'complete' music system, (no record deck)
Shared friends and work colleagues know he is bonkers spending so much money
I think the wire is different, too.
I had an exchange with Paul, and decided that FP126R on the end of the Neptune was my ticket to happiness, short of going to Venus.
That's correct Peter. What Dave has are Plutos upgraded to silver bullet plugs as I had run out of the copper ones and upgraded the original customer free of extra charge.
The bullets may be viewed by some (as with Barry on the earlier comment) as not in their favourites list, but providing they're not mis-handled, they make a lot of sense and make great electrical contact. I dislike profis as that sliding brass link is unnecessary and a bit of a gimmik as most sockets these days are designed so that the grounding collar is contacted before the central pin reaches the signal contact....not always the case, but mostly the case. I do find (for whatever the reason, objective or subjective) that different plugs will alter the sonic characteristics in some circuits, and I have chosen all of my plugs in the range on best synergy imho with the cables selected as well as on quality of connections.
The bullets may be viewed by some (as with Barry on the earlier comment) as not in their favourites list, but providing they're not mis-handled, they make a lot of sense and make great electrical contact. I dislike profis as that sliding brass link is unnecessary and a bit of a gimmik...
+1. Furthermore, knowing what I've heard after having conducted many hours of 'plug rolling' (using types from various manufacturers, made of different materials), sad but true, lol, I'd never use those that contain only brass conductors.
It's either solid-copper or solid-silver for me all the way. Anything inferior, conductor-wise, just isn't considered, as I can hear the difference it makes! :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
16-11-2013, 17:24
... lol, but solid gold would be chavvy! :)
If anyone has solid gold plugs I'd bet they have 'Cheshire gold top' electric gates... heheh.
Hehehehe... Way too blingly, muchacho! :D
Marco.
That's correct Peter. What Dave has are Plutos upgraded to silver bullet plugs as I had run out of the copper ones and upgraded the original customer free of extra charge.
The bullets may be viewed by some (as with Barry on the earlier comment) as not in their favourites list, but providing they're not mis-handled, they make a lot of sense and make great electrical contact. I dislike profis as that sliding brass link is unnecessary and a bit of a gimmik as most sockets these days are designed so that the grounding collar is contacted before the central pin reaches the signal contact....not always the case, but mostly the case. I do find (for whatever the reason, objective or subjective) that different plugs will alter the sonic characteristics in some circuits, and I have chosen all of my plugs in the range on best synergy imho with the cables selected as well as on quality of connections.
That's news to me. If true, the centre contact of the socket must be deeply recessed. Care to name the manufacturers of these RCA sockets?
The sliding barrel of the Profi sockets is not, IMO, a 'gimmick'; even if you don't think that it is important that the ground connection is made first and broken last on mating, the integity of the ground connection is second to none. And as you know, low resistance ground connections are vital in audio.
I don't believe the single 'edge' outer connection of the sprung loaded bar of the Eichmann plug makes as good a connection as the circumferential outer connection of conventional RCA plugs. One shouldn't have to only mate Eichmann plugs with Eichmann sockets: the RCA connector is supposed to be a universal design.
The sad truth of the matter is the RCA 'phono' connector was designed in the late 1940s to be a cheap audio connector. It is a lousy design, which unfortuately, has become the industry standard (thanks to the Japanese). No amount of tarting up of the materials or build standard is going turn this sow's ear into a silk purse.
The BNC connector is vastly superior to the RCA phone and costs far less than the 'boutique' RCA connectors available. Then there are the CAMAC connectors which are of similar or better quality to the BNC, but are more expensive. Like the BNC, Camac connectors are used in professional environments where contact integrity is vital: the nuclear industry; by the military television broadcasters; medical life-support; safety-critical equipment; aerospace and NASA, and Formula 1. You don't see many RCA phono plugs used professionally.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?10732-The-Long-Way-Home&p=501130#post501130
Definitely worth a read as it has some bearing on what is being discussed here ;)
The sad truth of the matter is the RCA 'phono' connector was designed in the late 1940s to be a cheap audio connector. It is a lousy design, which unfortuately, has become the industry standard (thanks to the Japanese). No amount of tarting up of the materials or build standard is going turn this sow's ear into a silk purse.
The BNC connector is vastly superior to the RCA phone and costs far less than the 'boutique' RCA connectors available. Then there are the CAMAC connectors which are of similar or better quality to the BNC, but are more expensive. Like the BNC, Camac connectors are used in professional environments where contact integrity is vital: the nuclear industry; by the military television broadcasters; medical life-support; safety-critical equipment; aerospace and NASA, and Formula 1. You don't see many RCA phono plugs used professionally.
I do agree with the above, Barry. When identifying the 'best' RCA phono plugs, one is undoubtedly still dealing with the best of a bad bunch :)
However.... The sad fact also (if you've done some relevant comparisons) is that the Neutriks, although good, are not the best sounding plugs out there, when used in the most critical application of all for audio enthusiasts: reproducing music, to the highest standards of fidelity. As an audio enthusiast, keen to obtain exactly that from his system, it is consequently the only thing that concerns me.
Therefore, whilst it is most certainly the case that the humble RCA phono plug is far from being the best option, and that we're somewhat lumbered with it, it is also pretty obvious that there are worthwhile gains to be had by finding and using the best sounding varieties, in the context of the specific cables chosen (and system), and matching them with their accompanying sockets.
:exactly:
I will always 'go the extra mile' in audio, if I consider that the rewards are worth it - and in this case they are.
Marco.
On the basis of my experience with Eichmann's so far I am not at all impressed by them. I have a problem with their design first and foremost, they ground to the socket via a single, thin strip of metal which is sheer craziness. Over time, as they wear, you risk them not earthing properly which will give rise to some rather interesting issues. Nor do I like the plastic body housing, which feels cheap and surely introduces questions regarding their long term resilience. They also also don't sound as good as Furutech FP126 plugs when installed on the same cable as far as I am concerned, and we are talking Silver Bullets here rather than Eichmann's copper or brass versions of the same product. All in all and IMHO, yet another foo product destined for the scrapheap as their limitations are realised I reckon. Strong views I know but I can only say as I find ;)
All in all and IMHO, yet another foo product destined for the scrapheap as their limitations are realised I reckon. Strong views I know but I can only say as I find ;)
Strong, maybe, Dave, but also daft. I'm sorry. I'm being equally as strong with my views and only saying what I find.
Do you mean more "foo" than the Furutechs you prefer (which certainly aren't "foo" either)? I'm disappointed that you had to use such an inappropriate word, normally associated with blinkered objectivists when discussing cables, to sum up your feelings :rolleyes:
I was with you up until you wrote the above remarks in bold, even though your views of the Eichmanns are diametrically opposed to mine (albeit used in a totally different context). 'Fair enough', I thought, until you trotted out the "foo" nonsense.... :doh:
What also disappoints me, as I expected better of you, is that you've come to such a conclusive opinion, after only having listened for a few hours to these new cables, fitted with Eichmann Silver Bullet plugs, and worse still, have judged them so conclusively solely in one single context, and dismissed them as "foo". That can hardly be considered as thorough audition. It smacks of impetuousness.
Whenever I audition cables, I do it over a period of two weeks, using a variety of different music for assessment, and I use them in both digital and analogue applications, in order to determine where they perform best. Then, most importantly, after two weeks of my ears becoming 'attuned' to how they're performing, I switch back to my usual reference (whichever cables I was using before putting the new ones in), and then and only then do I reach a conclusive opinion on their efficacy or otherwise, as the difference (if any) is usually obvious.
I'm sorry to be so critical of your findings, and of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I have to be honest. I just feel that you have rushed the review of these cables (and plugs), producing in the process a rather ridiculous assessment of the Eichmanns, and thus not done yourself any favours :(
Marco.
That's news to me. If true, the centre contact of the socket must be deeply recessed. Care to name the manufacturers of these RCA sockets?
The sliding barrel of the Profi sockets is not, IMO, a 'gimmick'; even if you don't think that it is important that the ground connection is made first and broken last on mating, the integity of the ground connection is second to none. And as you know, low resistance ground connections are vital in audio.
I don't believe the single 'edge' outer connection of the sprung loaded bar of the Eichmann plug makes as good a connection as the circumferential outer connection of conventional RCA plugs. One shouldn't have to only mate Eichmann plugs with Eichmann sockets: the RCA connector is supposed to be a universal design.
The sad truth of the matter is the RCA 'phono' connector was designed in the late 1940s to be a cheap audio connector. It is a lousy design, which unfortuately, has become the industry standard (thanks to the Japanese). No amount of tarting up of the materials or build standard is going turn this sow's ear into a silk purse.
The BNC connector is vastly superior to the RCA phone and costs far less than the 'boutique' RCA connectors available. Then there are the CAMAC connectors which are of similar or better quality to the BNC, but are more expensive. Like the BNC, Camac connectors are used in professional environments where contact integrity is vital: the nuclear industry; by the military television broadcasters; medical life-support; safety-critical equipment; aerospace and NASA, and Formula 1. You don't see many RCA phono plugs used professionally.
That's exactly what happens Barry, the socket connection is deep in the recess, certainly far enough in so that well thought out RCA plugs have the ground collar contacting first. The sensible thing to do irrespective of what plugs you prefer is to switch kit off or at least take it out of the signal path before swapping cables anyway so the whole sliding collar thing is gimmicky in my opinion. The integrity of the ground connection on the profi is NO better than a vast majority of RCA's...fact. Whatever you think about the RCA, it's pretty much here to stay, and it remains perfectly adequate for the job in hand as long as the connections are well made and reasonable quality components used. The BNC is vastly superior how? Could you tell the difference in a DBT? Superior, yes, but "vastly"? It also has a finite lifespan in that it can be removed and inserted so many times before it's recommended to change the pin plus most these days are pretty poor quality. I've handled enough of the things to actually prefer a well made RCA. The sonic differences are minimal if there at all despite the arguments to the contrary where single ended connections are concerned. All imho of course. We can argue semantics all day long which is pointless so its down to personal preferences I guess.
The whole reasoning behind Eichmann Silver Bullet and WBT 0110Ag plugs is that there is a single point of ground contact, not a round barrel. We know that both connectors are 'fussy' in their positioning, but both use solid silver connectors and have the least 'sound' of any plugs I've come across. Preference is an individual choice, I like the WBTs but others favour the Eichmanns. Both are very good but pricy.
Without any doubt in my mind, the best connection methodology, if it is available and the equipment is truly balanced internally, is XLR. Non-fussy about its connectors (Neutrik silver pin plugs are inexpensive and excellent), it just works.
On the basis of my experience with Eichmann's so far I am not at all impressed by them. I have a problem with their design first and foremost, they ground to the socket via a single, thin strip of metal which is sheer craziness. Over time, as they wear, you risk them not earthing properly which will give rise to some rather interesting issues. Nor do I like the plastic body housing, which feels cheap and surely introduces questions regarding their long term resilience. They also also don't sound as good as Furutech FP126 plugs when installed on the same cable as far as I am concerned, and we are talking Silver Bullets here rather than Eichmann's copper or brass versions of the same product. All in all and IMHO, yet another foo product destined for the scrapheap as their limitations are realised I reckon. Strong views I know but I can only say as I find ;)
Dave I have had Eichmann plugs in use since they first appeared on the market (10-12 years ago ?) and never had a problem with earth contact or long term resilience of the plastic, they have been used in at least 3 different systems and have been changed from cable to cable innumerable times and have been completely reliable.
The whole reasoning behind Eichmann Silver Bullet and WBT 0110Ag plugs is that there is a single point of contact, not a round barrel. We know that both connectors are 'fussy' in their positioning, but both use solid silver connectors and have the least 'sound' of any plugs I've come across. Preference is an individual choice, I like the WBTs but others favour the Eichmanns.
Indeed, on all counts.
I would also add that the reason the plugs on the Eichmanns are 'plastic' is precisely for sound quality reasons, as like the designers of the Bullet Plugs, experience has shown me that the least amount of thick metal on plugs there is, the better. Furthermore, if one wants to improve their appearance, as well as maintain the sonic benefits of their non-magnetic construction, then the Eichmanns are also available with machined aluminium shells, which is what I use, as shown here on the end of my tonearm cable:
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8253/kmul.jpg
Those look much better than the Polymer versions and sound just as good! :)
Lastly, what I found (with extended listening) is that, for some reason, and I have yet to identify why, the Eichmanns appear to work best in analogue applications, such as on the end of a tonearm cable, and the WBT 0110Ags perform at their best in digital applications.
Certainly, this is the case in my system, as I was fortunate to have been sent, by Yannis, two identical tonearm cables, the type you and I both currently use: one fitted with Eichmann Silver Bullet plugs, and the other with WBT Nextgen 0110Ags, in order to determine which was best. I was also sent the same from Mark Grant, in terms of two otherwise identical pairs of G2000HDs. This is the sort of effort I'll undertake, in order to ensure that I end up with the right choice and the best sound, in my system.
In my system, the Eichmanns notably outperformed the WBTs, in the context of my Yannis 423.5 Phono Silver Litz tonearm cable. Conversely, when used on the end of my Oyaide FTVS510 digital interconnect, the WBTs outperformed the Eichmanns, as indeed they did in every other application throughout my system, resulting in them being used on the Mark Grant G2000HDs, connecting my DAC to my CD transport and my preamp to power amp. I know that the latter are both analogue applications, but I can only report what I heard.
It was therefore only in ONE specific application where the silver Bullet Plugs really shone!
That is why it is so important to assess these things as thoroughly as possible in different contexts, before arriving at a conclusive opinion, and not fall into the trap of making snap judgements one might later regret...... ;)
Marco.
Strong, maybe, Dave, but also daft. I'm sorry. I'm being equally as strong with my views and only saying what I find.
Do you mean more "foo" than the Furutechs you prefer (which certainly aren't "foo" either)? I'm disappointed that you had to use such an inappropriate word, normally associated with blinkered objectivists when discussing cables, to sum up your feelings :rolleyes:
I was with you up until you wrote the above remarks in bold, even though your views of the Eichmanns are diametrically opposed to mine (albeit used in a totally different context). 'Fair enough', I thought, until you trotted out the "foo" nonsense.... :doh:
What also disappoints me, as I expected better of you, is that you've come to such a conclusive opinion, after only having listened for a few hours to these new cables, fitted with Eichmann Silver Bullet plugs, and worse still, have judged them so conclusively solely in one single context, and dismissed them as "foo". That can hardly be considered as thorough audition. It smacks of impetuousness.
Whenever I audition cables, I do it over a period of two weeks, using a variety of different music for assessment, and I use them in both digital and analogue applications, in order to determine where they perform best. Then, most importantly, after two weeks of my ears becoming 'attuned' to how they're performing, I switch back to my usual reference (whichever cables I was using before putting the new ones in), and then and only then do I reach a conclusive opinion on their efficacy or otherwise, as the difference (if any) is usually obvious.
I'm sorry to be so critical of your findings, and of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I have to be honest. I just feel that you have rushed the review of these cables (and plugs), producing in the process a rather ridiculous assessment of the Eichmanns, and thus not done yourself any favours :(
Marco.
It was never my intention to sleight Paul Coupe's products, I couldn't be happier with the Reference Neptune's he made for me and I've made no secret of it on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. Perhaps it's a synergy thing between the Furutech cables and plugs which appeals to me, who knows? You'd understand where I am coming from if you were here listening with me. This has always been about the relative performance of respective makes and types of plug fitted to the same cable stock as far as I am concerned and thus the opportunity arose to demonstrate to myself and to those participating in this debate that plugs can and do contribute to the sound signature of a cable build, I just wasn't expecting the results I got, does that make me a bad man? :lol: I find myself preferring the sound and build of the Furutech FP126's over the Eichmann Silver Bullets, others may prefer the converse but I'm not 'others'. However perhaps my use of the word 'foo' to describe the Eichmann's was a faux pas too far therefore I offer my sincere apologies to all concerned. It was meant to be a tongue in cheek reference to an exchange with Mr Brooks earlier in this thread but it appears to have backfired on me... :eyebrows:
However perhaps my use of the word 'foo' to describe the Eichmann's was a faux pas too far therefore I offer my sincere apologies to all concerned. It was meant to be a tongue in cheek reference to an exchange with Mr Brooks earlier in this thread but it appears to have backfired on me... :eyebrows:
Lol - well, unfortunately, it did backfire on you. That's the danger, you see, of presuming that others will acknowledge and appreciate the relevance of an 'in joke'... ;)
Aside from that, and whilst you're entitled to your opinion, I still think that you've came to a conclusion somewhat hastily on the plugs and cables in question. I simply don't make snap judgements like that, and spend far more time assessing judiciously for the efficacy (or otherwise) of such items. Anyway, daftee, what's done is done...
However, the good thing is that you are now added to the list of people who can hear the difference between using 'fancy' connectors! Yes, Brooksy is now officially deaf!! :D
As an aside, would you agree that the Eichmanns look nicer in aluminium shells than plastic ones? I hate those bloody 'dayglow' blue and red things!
Marco.
Marco
I agree with your assessment methodology and I do the same thing, pretty much. Except when I make a change and it is immediately and obviously worse than the previous. This does happen occasionally and in such cases I will not proceed with extended listening but just revert to the previous set up and try something else. I think that is where Dave is at with these cables he is trying.
AS far a the various connecter types go, why is there not be an after market replacement service that would take out the RCA sockets from equipment and replace with BNC or XLR if they are truly superior? Replacing 2 pairs of sockets on a pre amp and one pair on a TT or CDP or DAC would not be that expensive. I note you have already replaced sockets on your Croft pre with improved RCA.
On the basis of my experience with Eichmann's so far I am not at all impressed by them. I have a problem with their design first and foremost, they ground to the socket via a single, thin strip of metal which is sheer craziness. Over time, as they wear, you risk them not earthing properly which will give rise to some rather interesting issues. Nor do I like the plastic body housing, which feels cheap and surely introduces questions regarding their long term resilience. They also also don't sound as good as Furutech FP126 plugs when installed on the same cable as far as I am concerned, and we are talking Silver Bullets here rather than Eichmann's copper or brass versions of the same product. All in all and IMHO, yet another foo product destined for the scrapheap as their limitations are realised I reckon. Strong views I know but I can only say as I find ;)
That sounds reasonable, but I don't agree (pretty much with any of it). I've used Eichmann plugs a few times now and never had any problem with them - easy to solder up and give a consistent and reliable connection.
I've also tried the same manufacturer plug and socket idea and whilst it 'feels' right, I don't think it makes much difference. The most important aspect of connection quality, in my opinion, is that they are tight.
The title of the post refers to 4 manufacturers, these are not the only ones who make good plugs, so it's hardly definitive.
I have some audio note plugs and they sound bloody good and they are not pure silver either.
BTW the wife told me to get get my ears syringed again which is a good idea :lol:
AS far a the various connecter types go, why is there not be an after market replacement service that would take out the RCA sockets from equipment and replace with BNC or XLR if they are truly superior? Replacing 2 pairs of sockets on a pre amp and one pair on a TT or CDP or DAC would not be that expensive. I note you have already replaced sockets on your Croft pre with improved RCA.
Most repairers will change sockets for you if that's what you want. However RCA chassis holes are not a standard size so replacement sockets may not fit without some modification - XLR.s require a significantly larger hole than any RCA, for example. BNC plugs are excellent, give good connection, are tightly specified, cheap and already have silver conductors as standard (apart from gimmicky hi-fi ones that sometimes have gold connections for no apparent reason). In fact, the only real problem with BNC's is that they are (very) difficult to connect to thick cables.
The title of the post refers to 4 manufacturers, these are not the only ones who make good plugs, so it's hardly definitive.
No one said it was definitive; but it's an accurate account of someone's findings (whose ears I trust) on the respective sonic merits of RCA phono plugs from four leading manufacturers, thus providing further subjective evidence that they all sound different :)
Marco.
I've also tried the same manufacturer plug and socket idea and whilst it 'feels' right, I don't think it makes much difference. The most important aspect of connection quality, in my opinion, is that they are tight.
Indeed, Mark. However, one is far more likely to achieve a tight connection if the physical properties of both plug and socket are compatible, as a result of being designed by the same manufacturer, which is precisely why I would always advocate using that approach, where possible :)
Marco.
You would think so, but that isn't always the case in my experience. You should get a tight fit in most sockets with WBT (or any chuck type locking plug) or Eichmann plugs.
Hi Martin,
I agree with your assessment methodology and I do the same thing, pretty much. Except when I make a change and it is immediately and obviously worse than the previous. This does happen occasionally and in such cases I will not proceed with extended listening but just revert to the previous set up and try something else. I think that is where Dave is at with these cables he is trying.
Possibly. However, what if the new cables were merely highlighting a problem with the system, masked by the previous plugs or cables? That can happen if the former increase resolution, simply through being more 'honest'. In my experience, this is what often occurs when the 'window is opened further', as it were.
Do you then just ignore the issue and return to your previous state of blissful unawareness, or attempt to tackle it? I will always do the latter, and seek to properly assess what is going on, as I simply don't entertain the presence of 'sticking plasters'.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's what is happening in Dave's system (I simply don't know), but it *could* be the case, which is why I tend to spend more than ten minutes (I'm being flippant here of course) assessing new cables or plugs, in order to ensure that I have definitely arrived at the correct conclusion! ;)
Marco.
You would think so, but that isn't always the case in my experience. You should get a tight fit in most sockets with WBT (or any chuck type locking plug) or Eichmann plugs.
Sure, I agree. However, experience has clearly shown that the tightest (optimal mechanical connection) is achieved when both plug and socket are from the same manufacturer.
I realise that changing sockets on equipment involves a bit of DIY, but if one truly is a perfectionist, then it pays to go the extra mile :)
Marco.
Well, our experiences differ then Marco. I'm not put off by a bit of DIY and actually have matching RCA plugs and sockets.
Hi Martin,
Possibly. However, what if the new cables were merely highlighting a problem with the system, masked by the previous plugs or cables? That can happen if the former increase resolution, simply through being more 'honest'. In my experience, this is what often occurs when the 'window is opened further', as it were.
Do you then just ignore the issue and return to your previous state of blissful unawareness, or attempt to tackle it? I will always do the latter, and seek to properly assess what is going on, as I simply don't entertain the presence of 'sticking plasters'.
Marco.
A fair point. Wth cables though I would tend to assume it was the cable's characteristics interacting poorly with the kit it is interfacing for arcane reasons of capacitance and inductance. I wouldn't look at matching the kit to the cables, easier and cheaper to match the cable to the kit.
Indeed - but in my experience introducing new cables can often highlight system deficiencies, simply through them being more revealing of what the system is doing, sonically.
If that was the case, then quite simply, I'd want to be 100% sure that those deficiencies were caused by the new cables and not a previously undiscovered issue with my system - and the fact is, that process takes time, in order to eliminate all the variables! ;)
Of course, some folk don't go into things in that level of detail, but I simply couldn't live with being any less thorough.
Marco.
Well, our experiences differ then Marco. I'm not put off by a bit of DIY and actually have matching RCA plugs and sockets.
Lol - now I'm a bit confused... Is what you're saying, you don't think that matching plugs and sockets from the same manufacturer results in an optimum mechanical connection? If so why bother having matching RCA plugs and sockets in the first place? :scratch:
Marco.
Then we differ as I don't really think there is an easily identifiable 'heirarchy' of cable transparency. It would be handy if there was. IME a cable that is more revealing with some combinations of kit will not work as well with other combinations.
Sure, it's called synergy! However, experience also tells me that some forms of 'synergy' give more accurate results than others... ;)
Marco.
Sometimes, it's just a revealing cable showing an area of the system that needs addressing, rather than necessarily a synergy problem.
Lol - now I'm a bit confused... Is what you're saying, you don't think that matching plugs and sockets from the same manufacturer results in an optimum mechanical connection? If so why bother having matching RCA plugs and sockets in the first place? :scratch:
Marco.
I did it to see if it made a difference and because I'm a bit of a perfectionist - however, I didn't think it made any difference and the mechanical connection was no better. As a result, it's not something I would recommend to others.
Locking type RCAs (like WBT etc.) should lock on to any RCA socket without difficulty. However, they don't actually clamp down with as much force as one may think and the contact pressure is rarely any better than a well fitting standard plug and socket. The Eichmann's, in my experience, do clamp to the socket quite tightly.
Sometimes, it's just a revealing cable showing an area of the system that needs addressing, rather than necessarily a synergy problem.
It's this phrase 'revealing cable' that gets me. I don't think we can class cables as less revealing to more revealing on a sliding scale of 1 to 10. It ain't that simple. For example DAC to pre-amp we connect with a cable. Cable has its own electrical characteristics as do the pre amp and the DAC. The most revealing cable will be the one that best mates the characteristics of the DAC and pre-amp with its own. So which is the most revealing cable will vary, in every situation.
If you are a cable manufacturer and you have a hierarchy of cables from say £50 to £500 then it is in your financial interests to suggest that the more you spend the better the result - nice and simple - but that is not always the case either logically or in my experience.
Indeed - but in my experience introducing new cables can often highlight system deficiencies, simply through them being more revealing of what the system is doing, sonically.
If that was the case, then quite simply, I'd want to be 100% sure that those deficiencies were caused by the new cables and not a previously undiscovered issue with my system - and the fact is, that process takes time, in order to eliminate all the variables! ;)
Of course, some folk don't go into things in that level of detail, but I simply couldn't live with being any less thorough.
Marco.
It makes me tired just reading about it.
Seriously, though, how do you 'eliminate all the variables'? That would surely involve swapping out each and every system component one by one, including valves, all cables, supports, amps, sources, speakers?
It's this phrase 'revealing cable' that gets me.
Perhaps 'adds less' makes the point better?
It makes me tired just reading about it.
Seriously, though, how do you 'eliminate all the variables'? That would surely involve swapping out each and every system component one by one, including valves, all cables, supports, amps, sources, speakers?
Indeed. I should have course put 'eliminate all the main variables' - or any that are possible and practical to achieve. The point I'm making, however, is that whenever I assess equipment or cables in my system, it's not a quick, but rather a lengthy process, where anything that can be done (with reasonable effort) to ensure that a correct conclusion is reached, is done.
This is one of the reasons why, once I'm satisfied with them, I rarely change my equipment or cables (a box-swapper I am not) - and more significantly why you'll never see me posting on threads in reference to system dissatisfaction, or about 'which was the worst bit of kit you've ever owned', quite simply because any 'duffers' don't get a look in!! ;)
Marco.
Perhaps 'adds less' makes the point better?
Yes, it is of course a given that there is no such thing as a 'good' cable, only ones that are 'less bad'. However, if experience tells you that certain cables can sometimes mask musical information contained on recordings, being reproduced by a system (count me in), then it follows that said system has latent potential waiting to be exploited by the use of cables that are more 'revealing'.
Such cables are more 'revealing' by dint of the fact that they allow said previously masked information to be heard by the listener, thus one could call them more 'neutral' or 'accurate'. If you haven't heard that effect before, then it suggests to me that either you haven't compared many cables and/or you don't own a system with sufficient resolution in order to show up those differences.
Incidentally, Martin, in case there is any confusion, I'm not referring to you (heaven forbid), nor indeed anyone else here. I am simply making a statement based on my own experiences to date in this area :)
Marco.
It makes me tired just reading about it.
Seriously, though, how do you 'eliminate all the variables'? That would surely involve swapping out each and every system component one by one, including valves, all cables, supports, amps, sources, speakers?
Well I'm currently trying out 10 different interconnects between pre-power and cd-pre. That's 100 combinations to work through and I'm nor even half-way through, mainly due to wasting time here but you have to take breaks to keep fresh. I've now worked out a shortcut where I just play the intro to AC-DC's 'Live Wire' and listen to how well the fret buzz on the guitar comes through. If it sounds right I carry on listening if not that's another combo I can cross off straight away. It's not easy this hi-fi lark...
Let us know the outcome, Martin.
I already know the outcome - I won't be 100% happy with any of them and then I will buy more interconnects :)
You see this is really the trouble with interconnects - if what works for you would work for me - with entirely different kit - then I could just buy your recommendation and job done. But since everything is a variable there is no option but trial and error.
Incidentally, so far the cheaper interconnects are not doing so well but neither are the expensive ones...
I have been doing some experiments myself with these babies, I have all the usual suspects at my disposal as I sell them all and indeed I could make up several sets of i/c's and put different plugs on the end of the same cable but I just don't have the time any more, in any case I have come across something rather special recently quite by chance which will be secret for now, I have found the Furutech plugs sound the best, for some reason the ones that hold the cable down with a screw so no soldering required, perhaps proof that solder does inhibit the performance?
I respect other people's views and their right to say what they want, I wish I had time to try 10 sets of i/c's I really do but if I spent 2 hours listening there would be another 10-20 orders waiting for me to process!
The RCA's below use the same design principal as the IEC's on my mains cable, perhaps you should try them. :) and no before anyone asks I won't be sending any out on loan as they cost too much!
http://www.partsconnexion.com/media/product/connectors/ftech_72816.jpg
I've now worked out a shortcut where I just play the intro to AC-DC's 'Live Wire' and listen to how well the fret buzz on the guitar comes through. If it sounds right I carry on listening if not that's another combo I can cross off straight away. It's not easy this hi-fi lark...
I don't want to discourage you, but listening to such a short snippet of just one record isn't the best way (IMO). In fact, I wouldn't use compressed rock at all.
The RCA's below use the same design principal as the IEC's on my mains cable,
And what is that design principal?
I don't want to discourage you, but listening to such a short snippet of just one record isn't the best way (IMO). In fact, I wouldn't use compressed rock at all.
No you misunderstand - that is just step one. If it can't reproduce the fret buzz to the highest standard of realism then it won't do anything else. Most of the cables pass. Some don't. Those that do may then have up to 30 odd full albums played through them before I move on. You may not be familiar with the recording in question, it is early AC-DC, a very stark and clean recording and the intro is just a bass and a six string electric guitar, forget compression, there is none.
I don't want to discourage you, but listening to such a short snippet of just one record isn't the best way (IMO). In fact, I wouldn't use compressed rock at all.
no brighton rock is much better :lol:
That's exactly what happens Barry, the socket connection is deep in the recess, certainly far enough in so that well thought out RCA plugs have the ground collar contacting first. The sensible thing to do irrespective of what plugs you prefer is to switch kit off or at least take it out of the signal path before swapping cables anyway so the whole sliding collar thing is gimmicky in my opinion. The integrity of the ground connection on the profi is NO better than a vast majority of RCA's...fact. Whatever you think about the RCA, it's pretty much here to stay, and it remains perfectly adequate for the job in hand as long as the connections are well made and reasonable quality components used. The BNC is vastly superior how? Could you tell the difference in a DBT? Superior, yes, but "vastly"? It also has a finite lifespan in that it can be removed and inserted so many times before it's recommended to change the pin plus most these days are pretty poor quality. I've handled enough of the things to actually prefer a well made RCA. The sonic differences are minimal if there at all despite the arguments to the contrary where single ended connections are concerned. All imho of course. We can argue semantics all day long which is pointless so its down to personal preferences I guess.
We will have to agree to differ regarding the design of the RCA phono connection. I have never seen any phono sockets where the inner conductor is recessed sufficiently so as to connect last.
I'm sure I wouldn't be able to hear any difference between RCAs, BNCs and CAMACs; my diatribe against Eichmann's in particular and RCAs in general, concerned their respective design. BNC connectors are a much superior design to RCAs, no matter how 'boutique' the latter, and they cost less.
In 30 years working at an electronics research laboratory, I have never seen a BNC plug that needed it's pin replacing. Sometimes the centre conductor of a BNC socket can become damaged by careless handling; especially if a 50 Ohm plug has been mated with a 75 Ohm socket. IMO they are as robust as RCAs.
Surprisingly RCAs don't seem to be used on laboratory equipment - I wonder why?
And what is that design principal?
look on furutechs website chief :)
I don't want to discourage you, but listening to such a short snippet of just one record isn't the best way (IMO). In fact, I wouldn't use compressed rock at all.
I know what you mean, Mark, and broadly agree. However, I can also sympathise with Martin's view.
I certainly have favourite pieces of music, which no matter how well they are recorded or otherwise, I'm so intimately familiar with (having played them constantly for years), that I intrinsically 'know' when they are reproduced in a manner which I consider as musically 'correct' - and so those are always used as test tracks, when assessing cables or equipment, along with 'audiophile quality' recordings of acoustic instruments and voices, and such like.
Anyway, I'm sure you'll agree the most important thing is that Martin uses his own judgement criteria, in order to arrive at the correct conclusion (for him) :)
Marco.
no brighton rock is much better :lol:
I thought it was Sister Sludge? Or have your standards of musical discernment now evolved beyond that to encompass the marvels of Dr Hook? :D
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
17-11-2013, 20:11
Has anyone actually tried using a shielded 3mm piece of solid silver wire without the need of RCA's? I have. It may seem stupid and a very weird thing to do but it works extremely well and it's gets rid of the need to worry about RCA plugs once and for all, and saves a LOT on money. I expect I'll have the piss taken out of me, but ho-hum.
Has anyone actually tried using a shielded 3mm piece of solid silver wire without the need of RCA's? I have. It may seem stupid and a very weird thing to do but it works extremely well and it's gets rid of the need to worry about RCA plugs once and for all, and saves a LOT on money. I expect I'll have the piss taken out of me, but ho-hum.
As one who has custom silver pins cast for your mains plugs, I would have thought you were in the best position to try out the idea.
I know what you mean, Mark, and broadly agree. However, I can also sympathise with Martin's view.
I certainly have favourite pieces of music, which no matter how well they are recorded or otherwise, I'm so intimately familiar with (having played them constantly for years), that I intrinsically 'know' when they are reproduced in a manner which I consider as musically 'correct' - and so those are always used as test tracks, when assessing cables or equipment, along with 'audiophile quality' recordings of acoustic instruments and voices, and such like.
Anyway, I'm sure you'll agree the most important thing is that Martin uses his own judgement criteria, in order to arrive at the correct conclusion (for him) :)
Marco.
Yes absolutely - although for audiophile recordings I just use Steely Dan - although I do have a Linn sampler CD somewhere I rarely use it. There is a big difference between a good system and one that is a window on the recording. It would be fun to have some of the 'all cables sound the same' folk around sometime, I could blow their minds :) As far as personal conclusions go I often have a friend of mine around to listen who is a professional musician and has spent a lot of time in the studio and gets heavily involved in the production side of things. Plus he is a very old friend and will say what he thinks not what I want to hear. Very valuable on occasion. Mostly our opinions on what is working and what isn't are totally in accord.
In 30 years working at an electronics research laboratory, I have never seen a BNC plug that needed it's pin replacing. Sometimes the centre conductor of a BNC socket can become damaged by careless handling; especially if a 50 Ohm plug has been mated with a 75 Ohm socket. IMO they are as robust as RCAs.
Surprisingly RCAs don't seem to be used on laboratory equipment - I wonder why?
Sure, Barry, but why would that concern anyone here, as an audio enthusiast, when all they are interested in ultimately is whatever achieves the best sound quality? None of us use our systems inside a laboratory.
Also, whilst I agree that BNC plugs and CAMACs are intrinsically superior to RCAs, there appears to be a question mark over the thickness (and thus quality - I'm thinking mainly of conductor size here) of the cable that can be used with them?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, as I haven't experimented with either of those connectors, but if what I've stated is true, then it could be argued that their claimed superiority is outweighed by the deficiency of the 'weedy cable' one is forced to use with them....
After all, the efficacy of an interconnect cable, used for hi-fi purposes, is determined not only by the plugs used, but also the quality of the wire attached to them! ;)
Marco.
Yes absolutely - although for audiophile recordings I just use Steely Dan - although I do have a Linn sampler CD somewhere I rarely use it. There is a big difference between a good system and one that is a window on the recording. It would be fun to have some of the 'all cables sound the same' folk around sometime, I could blow their minds... As far as personal conclusions go I often have a friend of mine around to listen who is a professional musician and has spent a lot of time in the studio and gets heavily involved in the production side of things. Plus he is a very old friend and will say what he thinks not what I want to hear. Very valuable on occasion. Mostly our opinions on what is working and what isn't are totally in accord.
That sounds like a good situation to be in, Martin - respect! :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
17-11-2013, 20:49
Barry,
I like the idea you've spent 30 years working in Labs. I too have a science based background and love to experiment. Hence my earlier post. I do indeed use this method and have playing around with it on my valve system for 6 months or so. I don't like uncontrolled variables. Using my method removes all the bullshit and worry about which RCA is best. I dont buy into vibration being transmitted into an appliance from an RCA, especially when most pieces of kit sit on racks designed to eliminate that sort of things. Additionally I dont have to worry about casting processes, or locking mechanism, or any other snake oil. It's just a simple piece of shielded silver wire into the back of the RCA socket.
Sure, Barry, but why would that concern anyone here, as an audio enthusiast, when all they are interested in ultimately is whatever achieves the best sound quality? None of us use our systems inside a laboratory.
Also, whilst I agree that BNC plugs and CAMACs are intrinsically superior to RCAs, there appears to be a question mark over the thickness (and thus quality - I'm thinking mainly of conductor size here) of the cable that can be used with them?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, as I haven't experimented with either of those connectors, but if what I've stated is true, then it could be argued that their claimed superiority is outweighed by the deficiency of the 'weedy cable' one is forced to use with them....
After all, the efficacy of an interconnect cable, used for hi-fi purposes, is determined not only by the plugs used, but also the quality of the wire attached to them! ;)
Marco.
My Parthian shot (which you highlighted) was in reply to Paul's comment that, in his opinion, RCAs were more robust than BNCs. As for their use in audio, to my knowledge, it is only Naim Audio who have tried to introduce BNC connectors for the phono input on their later preamps (for entirely the wrong reasons!). That they are the only manufacture to do so (though DarTZeel might also use BNCs on their preamp(s)) suggests they are swimming against the tide, for as we have discussed, the RCA phono connector has become the de facto industry standard.
BNC plugs can accomodate cables with an outer diameter of 8mm, which ought to large enough for most audio enthusiasts (!), though I will conceed the diameter of the inner conductor is limited to perhaps 0.5mm. I don't believe audio interconnects need be the size of hosepipes - it is the quality of the conductors, the dielectric insulation and the design of the shielding screen that matters. I'm quite happy to use 'weedy cable', some of the best cables I have made use cable having an OD of 2.5 - 3.5mm (such as RG174 and some silver conductor cable supplied by Mark Levinson). One of the best cables to use is RG58/CU, which has an OD of ~ 4.5mm.
Sure, I accept all of that, and thanks for clearing up the issue relating to the thickness of cable BNCs can take :)
I'm not sure if I'd agree that having an inner conductor diameter limited to 0.5mm is sonically ideal, although I'm sure that someone like Paul (Reffc) could comment with some authority on the matter.
The main point I was making, however, is that, ultimately, the efficacy of ANY audio cable is governed by the limitations of its weakest link, and so the best cables are likely to be those where both the plugs and wire used minimise those limitations. Therefore, focussing all or most of one's attention on the quality of the plugs is not likely to achieve the best results.
In that respect, it would be interesting to compare a cable of your own construction, featuring the use of BNCs or CAMACs against a top 'audiophile designed' item, using bespoke RCA phono plugs, and find out which performed best in a given system - of course the equipment used would have to be fitted with both types of sockets.
Perhaps that's one to be carried out at a future AoS show? :cool:
Marco.
Sure, I accept all of that, and thanks for clearing up the issue relating to the thickness of cable BNCs can take :)
I'm not sure if I'd agree that having an inner conductor diameter limited to 0.5mm is sonically ideal, although I'm sure that someone like Paul (Reffc) could comment with some authority on the matter.
The main point I was making, however, is that, ultimately, the efficacy of ANY audio cable is governed by the limitations of its weakest link, and so the best cables are likely to be those where both the plugs and wire used minimise those limitations. Therefore, focussing all or most of one's attention on the quality of the plugs is not likely to achieve the best results.
In that respect, it would be interesting to compare a cable of your own construction, featuring the use of BNCs or CAMACs against a top 'audiophile designed' item, using bespoke RCA phono plugs, and find out which performed best in a given system - of course the equipment used would have to be fitted with both types of sockets.
Perhaps that's one to be carried out at a future AoS show? :cool:
Marco.
It's been a while since I soldered on a BNC plug, so I may be wrong concerning the maximum diameter of the inner conductor. There are arguments that the conductor diameter for audio interconnects need be no larger than 1.0mm and preferably no larger than 0.5mm.
I agree - the best interconnects use the best cable and plugs. Not sure how a useful comparison could be carried out if the connectors are different.
It's been a while since I soldered on a BNC plug, so I may be wrong concerning the maximum diameter of the inner conductor. There are arguments that the conductor diameter for audio interconnects need be no larger than 1.0mm and preferably no larger than 0.5mm.
I would simply listen to various examples of an otherwise identical cable, featuring different thicknesses of conductor diameter, and decide which sounded best.
It would be interesting to know what the conductor diameter is in your average pair of 'audiophile designed' interconnect cables, and/or indeed what is used in the ones Paul sells - or even my own Mark Grants?
I've only ever considered that aspect of construction on mains leads, where experience proves that the thicker the conductor used, then the better performance is. The 2.6mm cores of my 'Ultimates' are testament to that observation, to my ears.
If we're talking about maintaining maximum signal integrity (and I believe that the thickness of conductor cores are central to that), then I can't see why that principle wouldn't translate to interconnect cables. However, I stand to be corrected :)
I agree - the best interconnects use the best cable and plugs. Not sure how a useful comparison could be carried out if the connectors are different.
Easy - just ensure that the test equipment is fitted with both RCA sockets and BNCs. Then one simply listens and swaps cables over from those featuring one plug type to the other, and judges the results :cool:
That, of course, would simply be a test to ascertain whether your theory of using BNCs with a 'weedy cable', of adequate quality for the purpose, was as good as or better than an 'audiophile designed' cable, using bespoke RCA phono plugs, and cable of whatever type was considered necessary by the designer to ensure maximum sonic performance.
If we wanted to simply compare the efficacy of the plugs themselves, then the cables used would have to be identical, but for BNCs or bespoke-designed RCA phonos.
Marco.
I would simply listen to various examples of an otherwise identical cable, featuring different thicknesses of conductor diameter, and decide which sounded best.
It would be interesting to know what the conductor diameter is in your average pair of 'audiophile designed' interconnect cables, and/or indeed what is used in the ones Paul sells - or even my own Mark Grants?
I've only ever considered that aspect of construction on mains leads, where experience proves that the thicker the conductor used, then the better performance is. The 2.6mm cores of my 'Ultimates' are testament to that observation, to my ears.
If we're talking about optimally maintaining signal integrity, then I can't see why that principle wouldn't also translate to interconnect cables. However, I stand to be corrected :)
Easy - just ensure that the test equipment is fitted with both RCA sockets and BNCs. Then one simply listens and swaps cables over from those featuring one plug type to the other, and judges the results :cool:
Marco.
I would imagine, from cursory external examination, that the inner conductor of Mark's cables is no more than 1mm in diameter. (Perhaps Mark might be willing to disclose this information, without giving too much away?) I'm unfamiliar with any of Paul's cables.
Don't know of any audio equipment which is fitted with both RCAs and BNCs.
The Grand Wazoo
17-11-2013, 23:49
Another vote for the Camac - they're beautifully made and engineered by someone who knew what was required from a connector.
I think you'd need to use something modified for the job. So we need a switched box with three sets of inputs and one output hardwired to the inputs of a power amp and a preamp with three sets of outputs and three different cables hardwired to it!
I would imagine, from cursory external examination, that the inner conductor of Mark's cables is no more than 1mm in diameter. (Perhaps Mark might be willing to disclose this information, without giving too much away?) I'm unfamiliar with any of Paul's cables.
I'll see if I can find out some relevant info.
Don't know of any audio equipment which is fitted with both RCAs and BNCs.
Well I don't mind fitting some BNCs onto mine - there's plenty of room! Therefore, if you make the cables up, I'll sort the BNC sockets out on my kit. I have plenty of friends skilled in the art of wielding a soldering iron... ;)
Marco.
I think you'd need to use something modified for the job. So we need a switched box with three sets of inputs and one output hardwired to the inputs of a power amp and a preamp with three sets of outputs and three different cables hardwired to it!
How so, Chris? See my last post.
I'm quite happy fitting BNC sockets onto my DAC and preamp (and power amp, if necessary), especially if BNCs are found to be sonically superior - in which case I would have BNC plugs fitted onto all my existing interconnects, in order to capitalise on the sonic gains. I have nothing to lose here with this experiment ;)
Therefore, if Barry makes up some cables with BNCs fitted, then we simply swap between my existing cables and his, using the appropriate sockets on the back of my equipment, without the need for any sonically degrading switching boxes.
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
18-11-2013, 00:30
Camacs mate!
http://vantageaudio.com/images/fischer000.gif
You need to try them too - that needs three variables to be assessed.
A degrading switch is a necessary evil and not too much of a hazard if all the variables are degraded equally.
Ok, but what are considered as being sonically superior - CAMACs or BNCs? In order to simplify matters (as life's too short), I'm happy to accept Barry's opinion (or that of anyone else with a learned view on the matter) and choose between those and RCAs :)
If it's CAMACs, then what do they look like and where are the sockets available to buy? I must confess to never having seen, let alone used the buggers!
Marco.
Sure, I accept all of that, and thanks for clearing up the issue relating to the thickness of cable BNCs can take :)
I'm not sure if I'd agree that having an inner conductor diameter limited to 0.5mm is sonically ideal, although I'm sure that someone like Paul (Reffc) could comment with some authority on the matter.
The main point I was making, however, is that, ultimately, the efficacy of ANY audio cable is governed by the limitations of its weakest link, and so the best cables are likely to be those where both the plugs and wire used minimise those limitations. Therefore, focussing all or most of one's attention on the quality of the plugs is not likely to achieve the best results.
In that respect, it would be interesting to compare a cable of your own construction, featuring the use of BNCs or CAMACs against a top 'audiophile designed' item, using bespoke RCA phono plugs, and find out which performed best in a given system - of course the equipment used would have to be fitted with both types of sockets.
Perhaps that's one to be carried out at a future AoS show? :cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco
the ideal imho is around 0.3 to 0.5mm. Any thinner and the core starts to get fragile and is more easily damaged by any flex at the solder/crimp point. You are generally dealing with connections made into high impedance receivers so the impedance of the signal core per se is not as critical as some people think. Its the ratio of the ground return/shield to the signal core which is more important and should always be greater than 1 and preferably, be greater than 2 or more for good S/N performance of the interconnect. Theoretically speaking, the thinner the signal core, and the greater the distance between it and the shield (for coax) or between twisted pair conductors in a shared dielctric (shielded) the better. This lowers capacitance, it lowers theoretical phase distortions and smaller signal connectors are technically more phase-accurate, although audibly, you may be hard pressed to tell in most cases.
The last thing you want from an interconnect is to use signal core diameters over 1mm. Best compromise is around 0.4mm AND multistrand for flexibility, strength and performance. For the record, I regularly make up BNC to BNC and BNC to RCA cables. Not once have I ever noticed any measurable or sonic difference between them and just feel that this whole debate is elevating BNCs on to a sonic pedestal that is over-hyped. BNCs are used in medical, military and science applications primarily because they are mechanically secure and just like RCAs there is the option of crimped connections. They are used for reliability and mechanical integrity AFAIK and in audio, I am convinced that there is no sonic advantage. A well designed RCA for single ended audio applications has the advantage of being just as robust (arguably more so) and more flexible wrt use elsewhere in a system. RCAs are here to stay. My advice is just to pick a good one or if ordering from the likes of Mark or myself, and you have preferences for something that is not on our "standard" list just ask us for your specific requirements. In 99.9% of cases, I will supply whatever the customer wants unless there is good reason to go a better (rather than alternative) route in which case advice will be given, but the customer's wishes will always be granted.
Thanks for that, Paul. It's certainly cleared up some misconceptions I had in relation to 'the thicker the conductor, the better' (as is the case with mains leads), also being applied to audio interconnect cables.
What's your view then on CAMACs?
Incidentally, the only reason I'm bothering with all of this is because of Barry's claims of sonic superiority with BNCs and/or CAMACs, over RCAs (and the scepticism he reserves for the claimed efficacy of 'audiophile grade' interconnects), although I'm perfectly happy with what I'm using at the moment.
However, being the inquisitive/experimental bugger that I am, always keen to learn new things, I'm curious to see whether his claims re: BNCs and CAMACs stand up in a listening test, or whether their claimed benefits are outweighed by those of my 'foo cables' (my words, not his) fitted with 'fancy-pants' RCA phono plugs... :eyebrows:
It's all good fun!
As an aside, on a slightly different matter, what's your view on using BNCs for digital applications, say between a CD transport and DAC? Would you expect any sonic gains over RCA phonos in that application? I believe it's commonly accepted that BNCs are the superior connector for handling digital signals, due to more optimal impedance matching, over RCAs.
The reason I ask is that I've long thought of replacing the RCA phono 'digital-in/out' sockets, on my CD transport and DAC, with BNCs, and then fitting BNC plugs onto the digital coaxial interconnect connecting both.
Your views would be welcome, based on the fact that if you consider some sonic improvements may be possible, however small, I'd be willing to have the work carried out :)
Marco.
BNC's are used on most sensitive measuring equipment (like oscilloscopes). Also, you can buy BNC's that solder on the same way as RCA plugs (with tabs to solder to). I have BNC's at one end of an Atratus interconnect and has quite a chunky construction.
Cool... Did you notice any sonic improvements brought about by the use of the BNC? Also, could you supply a link to where the BNCs (with tabs) you mentioned are available to buy? :)
Marco.
As an aside, on a slightly different matter, what's your view on using BNCs for digital applications, say between a CD transport and DAC? Would you expect any sonic gains over RCA phonos in that application? I believe it's commonly accepted that BNCs are the superior connector for handling digital signals, due to more optimal impedance matching, over RCAs.
The reason I ask is that I've long thought of replacing the RCA phono 'digital-in/out' sockets, on my CD transport and DAC, with BNCs, and then fitting BNC plugs onto the digital coaxial interconnect connecting both.
Your views would be welcome, based on the fact that if you consider sonic gains may be possible, however small, I'd therefore be willing to have the work carried out
Marco.
BNC's offer theoretically better connection for digital in 75 Ohm variety but bear in mind that the circuit they connect into isn't by and large, 75 ohm...the advantages are very slight. If one wishes to get things as perfect as possible given the limitaions of circuits and connections, then BNC may help you sleep easier at night. The differences may be more apparent on some set ups than others, the only way to see what you prefer is to try both tbh. As far as CAMAC and other forms of electrical connector are concerned, sure there's a wide variety available if you wish also to change your kit sockets but why bother? For the same expense, upgrade your cartridge to get some perspective on where a more significant upgrade can be made ;)
I just happen to think that there's nothing so sonically or mechanically badly wrong with RCA connectors that they need to be changed although they are technically bettered by alternatives. They remain a very convenient and acceptable way of interconnecting kit. If I was going to consider changing RCA circuits, then the most sensible and better thing to do would be to eliminate the connection point altogether and hardwire components together, then there's no argument over which is better. I defy anyone to pick out CAMAC from BNC from RCA in any blind listening test given that all are of a reasonably high standard. At the end of the day, I'm perfectly happy to fit whatever connector people want to whatever cable they want if required.
BNC's offer theoretically better connection for digital in 75 Ohm variety but bear in mind that the circuit they connect into isn't by and large, 75 ohm...the advantages are very slight. If one wishes to get things as perfect as possible given the limitaions of circuits and connections, then BNC may help you sleep easier at night.
Ok, that's good enough for me, and another little job for sometime in the New Year!
The differences may be more apparent on some set ups than others, the only way to see what you prefer is to try both tbh. As far as CAMAC and other forms of electrical connector are concerned, sure there's a wide variety available if you wish also to change your kit sockets but why bother?
Well... A) In order to test if Barry's claims are right, and B) if they were, I would fit CAMACs onto my kit and obtain the sonic benefits.
For the same expense, upgrade your cartridge to get some perspective on where a more significant upgrade can be made...
Lol... Not sure what you mean? Why would I want to upgrade my SPU - or do you mean that a cartridge upgrade in general would offer greater sonic benefits than changing plugs and connectors? If that's the case, there is no argument! Thing is, I like to 'tick all the boxes', not just some of them... ;)
...the most sensible and better thing to do would be to eliminate the connection point altogether and hardwire components together, then there's no argument over which is better.
Yes, but it's not exactly very practical... What happens when you want to move your kit around or take it to a friend's place or a show - get the soldering iron out every time? For me, that's a total no-no. I'll go to almost any lengths to achieve better sound, but I draw the line at that, which is why I'm seeking to use the best possible plug/socket solution, and so will happily operate within those limitations.
I defy anyone to pick out CAMAC from BNC from RCA in any blind listening test given that all are of a reasonably high standard.
Well, that's an easy one for Barry and me to do when he visits. Presuming that the appropriate BNC or CAMAC sockets have been fitted to my equipment, and he brings some cables with him, which are identical but for the BNC or CAMAC plugs, then all he or I would have to do is play some music, from my system upstairs, and swap cables over (including my RCA-equipped ones) while the other is listening 'blind' downstairs (through the Celestions, in the absence of any other equipment), judging the results... :)
I often get Del to do that when I'm auditioning cables, in order to eliminate placebo or expectation bias.
Marco.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think 'Caramac' when they see the word 'CAMAC'?
Lol - I'm quite partial to some Caramac!
Marco.
This not a sales pitch but the oyaide silver cable me and mark use does come pre-fitted with bnc's
and looks quite good to boot!
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/570-thickbox_default/oyaide-dr-510-pure-silver-digital-cable-13m-.jpg
Beobloke
18-11-2013, 13:02
This not a sales pitch but the oyaide silver cable me and mark use does come pre-fitted with bnc's
and looks quite good to boot!
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/570-thickbox_default/oyaide-dr-510-pure-silver-digital-cable-13m-.jpg
Those in the picture aren't BNCs. They are F Type coaxial connectors. :scratch:
ooops!
http://www.oyaide.com/_src/sc1910/dr_510_500.jpg
Embrace and pay homage to your daftness, dafteeeeeeeee! :D
Marco.
Beobloke
18-11-2013, 15:10
ooops!
http://www.oyaide.com/_src/sc1910/dr_510_500.jpg
More like it!
Although I hope that picture shows two different cables as if not then, judging by the arrows, there is no possibility of connecting that cable "correctly"... :D
look on furutechs website chief :)
I have. Here is a link to the plug in question for those who can't be bothered to find it:
http://www.furutech.com/2013/01/26/1002/
Unfortunately, reading the associated features leaves me none the wiser as Furutech tend to list very similar features and design elements for all their connectors.
I did see these though:
http://www.furutech.com/products/component-parts/bnc-connectors/
Shame they are both 75 Ohm and not 50 Ohm designs.
I have. Here is a link to the plug in question for those who can't be bothered to find it:
http://www.furutech.com/2013/01/26/1002/
Unfortunately, reading the associated features leaves me none the wiser as Furutech tend to list very similar features and design elements for all their connectors.
I did see these though:
http://www.furutech.com/products/component-parts/bnc-connectors/
Shame they are both 75 Ohm and not 50 Ohm designs.
It's the same one I use in this IC Mark http://referencefidelitycomponents.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Ref-Venus-300x292.jpeg
It is a supremely well engineered and very high quality RCA plug that does seem to get the very best out of a good cable. Furutech can be a little OTT with product descriptions but there's no taking away from the quality of the components imho.
Shame they are both 75 Ohm and not 50 Ohm designs.
Excuse my ignorance, Mark, but why would that be an issue, especially in digital applications (which I'd imagine those plugs have primarily been designed for)?
As an aside, I've used (75 Ohm rated) digital coaxial cables in pairs before, as stereo analogue interconnects, with great success.
Marco.
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Marco.
As you say, they will be intended primarily for digital applications (though not exclusively). However, 50 Ohm is more commonly used for analogue applications and the sockets on my phono and amp are 50 Ohm.
Fairy muff...
I don't think that would bother me. The Furutech CF-BNC (R) you linked to is one sexy looking mutha! More importantly, based on how good I know the matching DIN plug sounds, used on my tonearm cable, when I fit BNCs to my CD transport and DAC, those are definitely the connectors I will use!
:exactly:
Marco.
Ok, but what are considered as being sonically superior - CAMACs or BNCs? In order to simplify matters (as life's too short), I'm happy to accept Barry's opinion (or that of anyone else with a learned view on the matter) and choose between those and RCAs :)
If it's CAMACs, then what do they look like and where are the sockets available to buy? I must confess to never having seen, let alone used the buggers!
Marco.
Gentlemen,
I think some of you may be reading more into my comments on RCAs, BNCs and Camacs, than was intended. My diatribe against RCAs in general and Eichmann connectors in particular, concerned their design and relative expense (for the higher quality samples) compared to BNCs and even Camacs. I simply claimed that both BNCs and Camac connectors are a more capable design, equally robust, but IMO electrically superior to RCAs
At no time did I claim BNCs or Camacs would be sonically superior. I would simply prefer to see the BNC become the audio industry standard, just I prefer to see speaker binding posts used rather than 4mm sockets.
I certainly would not be able to distinguish between RCA, BNC or Camac connectors in a blind listening test, nor would I expect to do so (just as I wouldn't expect to be able to hear much, if any difference, in good quality audio interconnects! :sofa:)
Marco - to give you some idea of the size of the Camac connectors Chris and I are talking about, here is a photo of two sets of Camac terminated leads I made up to use on ML equipment. The upper pair are made by Lemo, the lower set by Fischer. They are interchangeable. (The background grid lines are 2mm to give you an idea of scale). From the scale you can see the 'weedy' cable used.
http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/165.jpg
The following shows the Camac sockets used by ML on the rear of one of their preamps:
http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/006-7.jpg
Camac connectors are expensive - expect a plug and socket pair to cost around £15.
Regarding the impedance of BNC connectors - well, for analogue interconnects this is totally irrelevant. However since the SPDIF is 75 Ohm, it makes sense to choose the 75 Ohm version; that way digital interconnects can be used as well.
A good quality BNC plug and socket pair ought to be had for around £5.
I don't disagree with any of that. But if one is going to use a connector available in a specified choice of impedance values - surely it makes sense to use a socket and plug that match?
I don't disagree with any of that. But if one is going to use a connector available in a specified choice of impedance values - surely it makes sense to use a socket and plug that match?
Indeed one must. There is a good chance that a 75 Ohm BNC socket will become damaged if mated with a 50 Ohm BNC plug, owing to the larger pin diameter of the latter.
They don't actually Marco. The FP126's are gold plated and the CF126Rs are Rhodium plated. They don't do a silver plated option. Also, why would solid silver plugs be any better (sounding) than pure solid copper? The impedance of the ground connection needs to be lower than that of the signal connection, beyond that, a decent copper plug has ZERO disadvantages technically or sonically speaking in my own opinion. The best IC's I do use Rhodium plated copper and are none the worse for it ;)
As to the OP, well vfm and durability plus electrical contact wise, the FP126Gs take some beating. I use them and the Eichmanns on my Reference Series cables with good reason but the Eichmanns are more expensive.
So, besides construction, are there big sonic differences between these connectors?
So, besides construction, are there big sonic differences between these connectors?
Not a huge amount imho. Some customers prefer the Rhodium plated versions, but the primary purpose of offering Rhodium is for its excellent durability and oxidation resistance properties. It is very highly resistant to tarnishing. Not quite as conductive as gold but as interconnects are in a circuit connecting lowish impedance sources into high impedance receiving kit, the fractions if a millivolt difference between Rhodium plated connectors and Gold, should make no audible difference to the signal, although some claim that they can hear it. What's more important imho is the ratio of conductivity of the ground return (shield in coax) compared with the signal where single ended circuits are concerned. The higher this ratio, the better as it has a direct impact on S/N in "noisy" environments or where there may be ground noise issues.
Sorry, I meant between the Fp-126g and the Eichmann copper. I see you build cables with both.
Sorry, I meant between the Fp-126g and the Eichmann copper. I see you build cables with both.
I see...yes, they are both slightly different sounding but both share very decent shielding and use low capacitance cable with very pure copper signal cores. How they sound I guess depends on what they're plugged between. For phono applications, the Furutech one is possibly the one to go for very slightly better detail and overall shield coverage, but the Eichamnn's are good. They just require more considered handling long term as the Furutech's are the more durable plug if swapping things out all the time. Having said that, I've use both in my system for several years without any problems at all. Both make excellent electrical contact and as Mark pointed out somewhere else, the bullet plugs arguably have the better solder connection points as they're onto unplated Tellurium copper buckets. I use a quad-eutectic solder for all my leads, so don't tend to get some of the dry joint or junction issues that some others do (ie it makes less of a difference to the reliability and conductivity of the soldered joints between the two). I tend to rely on feedback rather than make any bold claims for how the cables sound, suffice to say the the overwhelming feeback is that the Plutos allow a very lively presentation with good dynamics, and the furutechs make superb contact and offer good detail. Neither "add" anything and are best described as allowing a revealing connection between components. I like both and have no plans to change any of the cable line up for some considerable time.
Great, thanks! I'll try the FP-126, since they're a bit cheaper. What about for digital cables?
Great, thanks! I'll try the FP-126, since they're a bit cheaper. What about for digital cables?
Use them for digital cables too unless you have the option of 75Ohm BNC in which case use the BNC, otherwise they're fine.
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