View Full Version : Which component imparts the biggest sonic signature ?
RobbieGong
28-10-2013, 12:59
Generally speaking, which component (turntable, amp, speakers - excluding cart) would you say imparts the biggest sonic signature ?
I reckon it would be the speakers ;)
purite audio
28-10-2013, 13:01
Your room/ loudspeakers.
Keith.
Oldpinkman
28-10-2013, 13:08
Your room/ loudspeakers.
Keith.
Unless using headphones :) I usually make exactly the same comment (trying to get Steadman to understand it is room before speakers with his 57 fetish) but having spent the weekend playing with cans i thought I'd be a smart-arse :eyebrows:
I'd say turntable/cart as any decent speaker will reveal the character of that combination. I've never swapped speakers (or changed rooms) and thought 'wow my TT sounds totally different'
Speakers. Without them you don't get much in the way of any sonic signature ;)
Speakers/room, and how the speakers are designed in terms of axis/off axis response can make huge differences to the perception of music. More so than just about any other component in the chain.
Arkless Electronics
28-10-2013, 13:15
Speakers.... and yes as you have to listen to them somewhere the room...
jandl100
28-10-2013, 13:16
Speakers, then source, then amp, then cables and 'infrastructure'.
Assuming the room is a given.
All are important though. Any can fook up the sound.
Gordon Steadman
28-10-2013, 13:19
Unless using headphones :) I usually make exactly the same comment (trying to get Steadman to understand it is room before speakers with his 57 fetish) but having spent the weekend playing with cans i thought I'd be a smart-arse :eyebrows:
Wot a load of old rubbish. 57s are different:ner:. They worked in a cupboard as well as a baronial dining hall. Can't imagine you trying to be a smartarse any more than me having a fetish:mental:
I think it depends what one means precisely by 'biggest difference'. For example, there is a big difference (:)) between quantity and quality. I would agree that speakers (and room) make the biggest quantity difference, but this certainly isn't true with regard to quality (though obviously even that depends on what items are being compared).
Wot Mark said (and I will elaborate more later).
Marco.
Clive197
28-10-2013, 13:49
Speakers and room combination. I did have an on going argument with a Rep from a very prominent speaker manufacturer who insisted that it was the amp that made the biggest difference and I was of the opinion that the amp made the least difference. My order of preference with room as a given, is Speakers, source and amp in that order.
No doubt for me. Speakers.
Oldpinkman
28-10-2013, 14:07
I guess it depends how you interpret "sonic signature". I think speakers, headphones, cartridges (the transducers) most obviously "sound like" something. To an extent turntables and tonearms also "have a sound" - but mechanically they are really part of the "record player" transducer, and so "sound of something" in the same way. Amplifiers don't really sound of anything - and so don't really have a "sonic signature" - although they can have a big influence on the sound (in a bright or dull, strangled or free, narrow or wide). Whilst their influence is less obvious - less "sounds of" - I am starting to think amplifiers, and to my great surprise power amplifiers, are of significant importance to final satisfaction.
Cables - well not completely irrelevant, but capable of extracting the artistic and poetic element from their enthusiasts, and perhaps consequently others find they have a far more prominent influence on their total system satisfaction than I do. If I had to change my Technics cartridge for a ceramic one, it would trash my enjoyment of music. Stick QED79 strand on the speakers, would be less than a flesh wound.
Arkless Electronics
28-10-2013, 14:44
If we take the room as a given then speakers, cartridge, turntable/arm combination, phono stage, power amp, pre amp in that order for me.... cables irrelevant so long as more than adequate for the purpose IE speaker cable needs to be pretty thick to have low resistance.... mains cables? don't be ridiculous. I get mine from the same sources as Oldpinkman.
Taking a step on from the original question and ignoring the obvious speaker/room interaction and not a single component I’ll grant you, but just to keep vaguely within the OP, an active crossover. ;)
The correct answer is of course speakers and/or headphones.
If you are into LPs, the record player and how it is located. Otherwise speakers/room. IME
topoxforddoc
28-10-2013, 20:57
The transducers - speakers and cartridge
Another vote for speakers.
The transducers - speakers and cartridge
I've done many A/B comparisons of vinyl source components and although it would seem logical to think the cartridge is more important than the arm and turntable it just isn't the case in my experience.
walpurgis
28-10-2013, 21:14
The transducers - speakers and cartridge
Yes, no doubt! With speakers coming a significant first.
Harry Hill
28-10-2013, 21:21
The speakers then the amps then the front end. Probably because lots of speakers have terrible distortion figures, so when you find a good one it shows up pretty quick. An ipod into an average amp and good set of speakers sounds way better than a supposedly good front end into same amp and crap speakers IMHO
:cool:
I've done many A/B comparisons of vinyl source components and although it would seem logical to think the cartridge is more important than the arm and turntable it just isn't the case in my experience.
Nor mine. The hierarchy for me, with a T/T, has always been motor unit (including PSU) > tonearm > cartridge. Experience tells me that some fairly 'unremarkable' cartridges can sound surprisingly good on the end of a top-notch T/T and tonearm.
I've never heard a top-notch cartridge sound anything else but disappointing on a T/T and tonearm that haven't been designed to optimise it.
Furthermore, while we're at it, I've never heard a system yet, built on the 'speakers first' principle, über alles, to my ears, sound genuinely musical. For me, system building is all about creating the right sonic balance between all the relevant components - and therefore synergy is what matters most, than does prioritising the importance of any one part of a system.
However, I will generally always spend that bit more on the source(s) [especially where a T/T is concerned] than on other system components. 'Infrastructure' (how well the components are isolated from the effects of the surrounding environment, on suitable racks, and how optimally the system receives power from the mains supply), including the influence, sonically, of all cables used, is also crucial!
Marco.
Most important factor for sound? The room.
Most important single synergy? Speaker / power amp.
+1 on that. If we're talking about the single most important aspect of synergy, then I'd defo go with the amp/speaker relationship. This is especially true when valve amps are in the equation.
Marco.
PaulStewart
28-10-2013, 22:59
Generally speaking, which component (turntable, amp, speakers - excluding cart) would you say imparts the biggest sonic signature ?
Hate to seem trite, but it's the system/room. To use a coarse analogy, in my youth I remember standing around with other lads as they looked at girls and made comments such as Look at the Ar*e on that or look at her T&ts etc. I realised that actually it's not a case of individual parts but the synergy of those parts that make a whole woman :)
Same with audio, both recording and reproducing, get the synergy right and your away, get it wrong and it's of no importance that you have the best cartridge in the world, if it's in the wrong arm the benefits will be lost. Everything is vital!
Hate to seem trite, but it's the system/room. To use a coarse analogy, in my youth I remember standing around with other lads as they looked at girls and made comments such as Look at the Ar*e on that or look at her T&ts etc. I realised that actually it's not a case of individual parts but the synergy of those parts that make a whole woman :)
Same with audio, both recording and reproducing, get the synergy right and your away, get it wrong and it's of no importance that you have the best cartridge in the world, if it's in the wrong arm the benefits will be lost. Everything is vital!
Vital with bias - tit man, bum man. TT man, digital man, stat man, planar man, leg man etc etc:D
topoxforddoc
28-10-2013, 23:11
I've done many A/B comparisons of vinyl source components and although it would seem logical to think the cartridge is more important than the arm and turntable it just isn't the case in my experience.
I'm lucky enough to have a Platine Verdier with 2 arm boards. In the blue corner I have a Schroeder Model 2 and Allaerts MC1B (over £4k now) and in the red corner a 1970s vintage AO rewired Hadcock 228 and 60s Decca C4E. Both are connected up into equivalent TRON phono stages (Seven Reference for the Decca and the onboard MC phono in GT's personal demo TRON Meteor, which I bought from him). I regularly put both carts onto the same LP and then swap inputs. I can tell you that it is a night and day comparison of transducer with no reliance on aural memory.
Charlie
Yes, Charlie, but only because your T/T (the motor unit itself) is up to the task of showing up those differences! ;)
If you tried the same thing on a notably inferior turntable, you'd get a much bigger upgrade by improving the quality of the T/T itself before that of the partnering tonearm or cartridge, simply because the deficiencies of the inferior T/T would outweigh those of either the cartridges or tonearms in question.
Marco.
KC Jones
28-10-2013, 23:29
Which component imparts the biggest sonic signature?
I would have thought speakers , transmit, communicate, pass on – Bestow the biggest sonic signature. But can only speak from experience and as I have never swapped my speakers, one can never be sure. So far the greatest change in sonics, happened when I swapped a set of valves in a pre amp.
Other than that I find the many flavours of Vinyl played impart the greatest sonic signature; good bad and ugly.
Nor mine. The hierarchy for me, with a T/T, has always been motor unit (including PSU) > tonearm > cartridge. Experience tells me that some fairly 'unremarkable' cartridges can sound surprisingly good on the end of a top-notch T/T and tonearm.
I've never heard a top-notch cartridge sound anything else but disappointing on a T/T and tonearm that haven't been designed to optimise it.
Furthermore, while we're at it, I've never heard a system yet, built on the 'speakers first' principle, to my ears, sound genuinely musical. For me, system building is all about creating the right sonic balance between all the relevant components - and therefore synergy is what matters most, than does prioritising the importance of any one part of a system.
However, I will generally always spend that bit more on the source(s) [especially where a T/T is concerned] than on other system components. 'Infrastructure' (how well the components are isolated from the effects of the surrounding environment, on suitable racks, and how optimally the system receives power from the mains supply), including the influence, sonically, of all cables used, is also crucial!
Marco.
I am certainly not one who agrees with everything that Marco writes but in this case he is 100% correct and the majority of what has been written in this thread is misinformed nonsense.
I am certainly not one who agrees with everything that Marco writes but in this case he is 100% correct and the majority of what has been written in this thread is misinformed nonsense.
Have to agree with you here Mark
Speakers..If you can't get them to work in your room you may as well get a midi system.
I am certainly not one who agrees with everything that Marco writes but in this case he is 100% correct and the majority of what has been written in this thread is misinformed nonsense.
Lol... Mark, the only areas where we disagree really is when it comes to valves and SUTs, and that's only because our relevant experiences have crossed somewhat in that area. Essentially, however, we're been 'reared' on very similar audio values.
As you know, I enjoyed listening to your system (which no doubt has improved considerably since I heard it) and rate every component within it - especially your Yammies! :)
Marco.
Speakers..If you can't get them to work in your room you may as well get a midi system.
No-one's saying that isn't the case, Stu, but there are also other very important factors to consider, which if ignored or not properly attended to, will result in less than optimal performance from a hi-fi system.
The key word here is 'system'. Remember the dictionary definition of the word: "complex whole formed from related parts - a combination of related parts organized into a complex whole."
In terms of a quality hi-fi system, that is *exactly* how it works. Ignore the importance of any of the related parts and you dilute the cohesiveness and effectiveness of the whole.
Marco.
In terms of the OP's original question, which is somewhat different to what we're now discussing, the answer is indisputably that of the speakers, and how they interact with the partnering room - but of course that's a very different matter from which component is arguably the most important in a hi-fi system, and hence where the most money should be spent.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
29-10-2013, 09:38
In terms of the OP's original question, which is somewhat different to what we're now discussing, the answer is indisputably that of the speakers, and how they interact with the partnering room - but of course that's a very different matter from which component is arguably the most important in a hi-fi system, and hence where the most money should be spent.
Marco.
You beat me to it :) Saying speakers have the biggest "sonic signature" is not the same as saying "build your system round your speakers" or "speakers are the most important" :exactly:
purite audio
29-10-2013, 09:38
Either choose loudspeakers that don't excite the room too much,or choose speakers you like and then treat the room passively, actively or a mixture of both, then you need an amplifier which drives the speakers properly.
Remember the manufacturers only supply a nominal figure for sensitivity ,speakers are often much more difficult to drive at certain frequencies where their impedance is low.
Keith.
I think the room itself - in domestic playback anyway - is the most critical. Get this wrong and it really don't matter what boxes/panals you buy, since they'll ALL sound crap!
As for as the system itself is concerned, it has to be either the speakers, and if you play records, the vinyl itself, although the distortions on the latter are benign by and large if the cartridge is set up well and the turntable 'system' is properly optimised.
Just my current thoughts of course :)
Agree with the 'room and speakers' comments, but very strongly agree with overall synergy comments.
What I can definitely say, and learned the hard way I guess, is that just because speakers make the most difference, doesn't mean you should put most of your budget into them.
Lol... Mark, the only areas where we disagree really is when it comes to valves and SUTs, and that's only because our relevant experiences have crossed somewhat in that area. Essentially, however, we're been 'reared' on very similar audio values.
As you know, I enjoyed listening to your system (which no doubt has improved considerably since I heard it) and rate every component within it - especially your Yammies! :)
Marco.
Not one of my most diplomatic posts. but it is what I think. The room makes a big difference but DSP correction is not the 'magic bullet' some (people who happen to sell said 'magic bullet') would have one believe and passive room treatment is not a practical proposition for many. No matter how good the speakers, it is a truism that they can only reproduce what is fed to them - they cannot reinvent information that is lost by the source or amplification (or correct distortions) - all they can hope to do is as little further damage as possible. I still see pictures of systems where the speakers are positioned in a very questionable manner and moving them in to a more appropriate position would certainly make a huge difference!
Not long ago I heard a system that used some enormously expensive, and vaunted, components. The speakers were recently purchased horn loaded designs (not Tannoys) and these were driven by huge, class D, Jeff Rowland amplification. This is an odd match to find hugely powerful amps driving very sensitive speakers (and I suspect a transitional stage for the systems owner) = the resulting sound was dire in my (and others) opinion; a top end that sounded like everything was being played on the paper and comb! Some things don't work well together, no matter how good they are.
I don't think I owned the Yammies when you heard my system Marco?
No, it was your Epos' - and even with those, the system sounded very coherent and musically involving. No doubt that with the Yammies and the Paradise now in the equation (not to mention whatever other bits you've added since my visit) things have moved on rather nicely! :)
Completely agree with all of your above post, particularly in reference to DSP correction and 'magic bullets'.
Marco.
I've done many A/B comparisons of vinyl source components and although it would seem logical to think the cartridge is more important than the arm and turntable it just isn't the case in my experience.
Not surprisingly, IME. A phono cartridge is a seismic vibration sensor. However good the cartridge is, if there is any vibration at the disc surface, from whatever cause be it mechanical motor noise, bearing noise, belt noise, stucture or airborne pickup, the cartridge will pick that up as well as the groove modulation and the cartridge itself can't possibly discriminate between the groove wiggle and extra vibration.
If there is any vibration on the plinth where the pickup arm is mounted it will be transmitted along the arm to the cartridge body. Since the cartidge body contains the magnets, and they will therefore move relative to the coils this vibration will also be an additional output from the cartridge, and yet again however good the cartridge it it will not be able to discern between the vibration coming up the arm and that due to groove modulation.
I agree in principle that it is the transducers which make the big difference but based on my experience and knowledge the transducer includes the whole record player including any isolatuon system and how/where it is mounted. The cartridge itself is just part of this.
bobbasrah
01-11-2013, 06:09
I think the room itself - in domestic playback anyway - is the most critical. Get this wrong and it really don't matter what boxes/panals you buy, since they'll ALL sound crap!
As for as the system itself is concerned, it has to be either the speakers, and if you play records, the vinyl itself, although the distortions on the latter are benign by and large if the cartridge is set up well and the turntable 'system' is properly optimised.
Just my current thoughts of course :)
Absolutely agree, although crap is perhaps a bit strong, perhaps not be able to show what they are truly capable of doing.
My own system is PC based, so is free of such physical media constraints or feedback issues, so as and when I re-install the analogue system the rest is already optimised.
Neil's follow up I can also agree on if you we are talking commercial product, but once you stray into the DIY end of it, such financial limits become largely meaningless unless you go for exotica. With so many wonderful speaker designs developed and available, the investment can be hugely rewarding for modest outlay, with the added bonus that the designs can be tailored to suit the environment.
Add some modest DIY to tempering the room's excesses and the rest of even the most modest of systems can achieve quite staggering performance IMHO...
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