JAS Super tweeters - Has anyone had an experience?

[Wakefield Turntables]

All comments really welcome.

[YNWaN]

I don't know those specific super tweeters but I have recently built myself a pair of super tweeters specifically for use with my own speakers (my friend Dave came over this afternoon and we did a load of measurements). I didn't know what to expect but my experience has been extremely positive!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Well to tell you the truth I fancied a pair for my 15" MG's and my ESL 57's, I've seen a pair which if I can get for <£250-300 I'd be happy to purchase and have a play with. I know your's were cheaper I have perused your post and the JAS super tweeters seem to be well liked over on the WAM. I'm looking forward to reading your findings. :D

[YNWaN]

Well, mine were cheaper largely because I made them. The core drive unit was quite reasonably priced but then it is a small unit and not intended to go very low.

Most (almost all) super tweeters use 'off the shelf' drive units and these are often ribbon drivers designed to take the place of tweeters, not specifically designed as super tweeters. The problem with using a ribbon driver as a normal tweeter is that they are delicate and not good at crossing over, or handling power, as low as a MC driver - so the ribbons and magnets get bigger. This inevitably pushes up the price but a super tweeter inherently does not need to cross over very low or handle much power. The other thing worth bearing in mind is that although many ribbons extend up to 40K they are often not very flat above 20K - how relevant this is is another matter.

My friend Dave came round yesterday and we carried out a whole bunch of measurements. It could clearly be seen how the Yamaha tweeters roll off steeply at 15K, we could also see how the super tweeters maintain output (very flat indeed) to 20K+.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/null_zps543f1636.jpg

Rather than write it all out again, there is quite a lot more here:

http://www.audioflat.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=194

[Wakefield Turntables]

AH HA! Just registered on your forum as well. Sounds like you get upto some interesting experiments. ;)

[YNWaN]

Yes, I've always got a couple of projects on the go. Currently nearing completion is the new turntable power supply, also still working on the super tweeters and discovered some odd crossover behaviour (got to post updates on all of this). I've also recently done some work on my arm design, encouraged by a friend to look in to tangential tracking pivoted arms.

[cloth-ears]

Well, mine were cheaper largely because I made them. The core drive unit was quite reasonably priced but then it is a small unit and not intended to go very low.

Most (almost all) super tweeters use 'off the shelf' drive units and these are often ribbon drivers designed to take the place of tweeters, not specifically designed as super tweeters. The problem with using a ribbon driver as a normal tweeter is that they are delicate and not good at crossing over, or handling power, as low as a MC driver - so the ribbons and magnets get bigger. This inevitably pushes up the price but a super tweeter inherently does not need to cross over very low or handle much power. The other thing worth bearing in mind is that although many ribbons extend up to 40K they are often not very flat above 20K - how relevant this is is another matter.

My friend Dave came round yesterday and we carried out a whole bunch of measurements. It could clearly be seen how the Yamaha tweeters roll off steeply at 15K, we could also see how the super tweeters maintain output (very flat indeed) to 20K+.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/null_zps543f1636.jpg

Rather than write it all out again, there is quite a lot more here:

http://www.audioflat.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=194

I notice you are only using a blocking cap. In my experience putting an air core inductor across the tweeter greatly improves the response curve. About 0.15mh is a good starting point.

[YNWaN]

It's a bit more complex than that with my own super tweeters as they are being fed from the tweeter section of the main speaker. This effectively makes the crossover for the super tweeters a sort of quasi- third order type (there is a 0.3mH air cored inductor across the + and -)

[cloth-ears]

It's a bit more complex than that with my own super tweeters as they are being fed from the tweeter section of the main speaker. This effectively makes the crossover for the super tweeters a sort of quasi- third order type (there is a 0.3mH air cored inductor across the + and -)

OK thank you, just me making assumptions.

[realysm42]

So if you're speakers reach up to 40khz you could argue the tweeters are 'super' anyway?

Is there a clear definition?

[YNWaN]

OK thank you, just me making assumptions.

No, you are right to question it - as you say, it does look like a single cap is used :).

[YNWaN]

So if you're speakers reach up to 40khz you could argue the tweeters are 'super' anyway?

Is there a clear definition?

A 'super tweeter' is just a generic term used to describe a tweeter intended to come in above a standard tweeter - it doesn't actually mean it is literally super, or superior.

[Wakefield Turntables]

BAH! I missed the bloody auction sprucing up my Sansui amp. :doh:

[f1eng]

A friend of mine is an engineering consultant who designs speakers for a lot of different clients. He came over for the weekend once with a pair of super tweeters, flat to 50k, using NXT technology.
He connected them into my system, he liked them, I couldn't tell wether they were on or off...

[YNWaN]

This is an interesting paper regarding NXT technology:

http://www.phy.davidson.edu/fachome/dmb/py115/NXTflatpanel/NXTflatpanel.htm

[f1eng]

This is an interesting paper regarding NXT technology:

http://www.phy.davidson.edu/fachome/dmb/py115/NXTflatpanel/NXTflatpanel.htm

It was my friend who did most of the computer analysis for Henry Azima, who was one of his clients for a few years. He did a lot of the conceptual and prototype work on the BMR too.

[YNWaN]

I did wonder... ;).

[realysm42]

Are super tweeters any harder to integrate with ribbon tweeters?

[daytona600]

Using a set myself for over a year to great effect on my Usher Be10s flat to 150khz. A real supertweeter
Cost about the same as a good set of floorstanders , spare pair if anybody with very good speakers wants to try a pair

[YNWaN]

Are super tweeters any harder to integrate with ribbon tweeters?

It depends - depends on the specific ribbon, the crossover and the super tweeter. But, as you hinted at before, a ribbon tweeter should already extend significantly beyond 20K (though it may not - it depends).

[Harry Hill]

Are super tweeters any harder to integrate with ribbon tweeters?

My speakers have two ribbon type units one goes from 180hz to 10khz the other one from 10khz to 50khz, Can't say if it's a super tweeter but it does sound super! Does that make the other unit a sub-tweeter?

:scratch:

[YNWaN]

Using a set myself for over a year to great effect on my Usher Be10s flat to 150khz. A real supertweeter
Cost about the same as a good set of floorstanders , spare pair if anybody with very good speakers wants to try a pair

I have to say that I doubt it (more than doubt it I'm afraid) - I'm not aware of any drive unit that can produce a linear output anywhere near 150K - 50 to 55K max is more like it. RAAL produce the finest HF drivers I am aware of and even they go nowhere near 150K!

[sq225917]

Flat to 150k is as it sounds, bollocks. Flat within a nominal 3-5db range, maybe. There are inevitable wave cancelation effects from the ratio of ribbon length/ width that simply cannot be tweaked out by crossover. Treat any manufacturer making such claims without giving measurement or peer review with utmost suspicion.

[daytona600]

Flat to 150k is as it sounds, bollocks. Flat within a nominal 3-5db range, maybe. There are inevitable wave cancelation effects from the ratio of ribbon length/ width that simply cannot be tweaked out by crossover. Treat any manufacturer making such claims without giving measurement or peer review with utmost suspicion.

not bollocks at All simon unique design unlike anything on the market £ 1950 a pair - Taket Batmasters 15-150khz hence the bat in the name , also own there H2+ Headphones with supertweeters 10hz - 100khz best headphones in the world

http://www.scottnangle.co.uk/anchorwave_11.html

BATMASTER SUPERTWEETERS

Reference standard Supertweeters with ultra high frequency extension to 150khz ( 150,000 hertz )
Ideal for Bookshelf & Mini monitors speakers to Full range Horns , ESL , Planar & Dual concentric speakers

5 position sensivity adjustment to match output with main speakers 70,85,90,95,& 100dB
suitable for ultra low sensitivity ESL and Dynamic speakers to very high sensitivity horn speakers

Polymer Piezo Electric HEIL type Drivers with 15khz ultra steep slope cut-off to match with main speakers
Wooden case with brass horn , brass spiked feet for rigidity when mounting on top of main speakers

Superb increase in low level information , Air , Detail , Space , Imaging , Extension across the Full frequency spectrum low to high frequencies
Full range frequency response on ultrasonic information stored on Analogue , modern DSD/Sacd & Hi-rez digital media
Audible improvement to your system top to bottom from Bass , Midrange & Treble

Mofi 1/2 Speed masters contain information up to 122khz

GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ is a proprietary cutting system built and designed by legendary design genius Tim De Paravicini, with consultation from one of MFSL’s founding fathers – Stan Ricker, an audio engineer responsible for many of MFSL’s most heralded past releases.

The GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ system is comprised of a Studer™ tape machine with customized reproduction electronics* and handcrafted cutting amps that drive an Ortofon cutting head on a restored Neumann VMS-70 lathe. (*It is worth noting that independent studies have confirmed that the GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ system can unveil sonic information all the way up to 122kHz!)

[cloth-ears]

A few years ago whilst working in a science lab I decided to run a CD through a very expensive spectrum analyzer, just to see what the results would be. I was surprised to find very little evidence of life past 16 kHz. It is also worth noting that a frequency of 30 kHz can be classed as a radio wave. Do we really have any need to go beyond the range of a standard tweeter? :scratch:

[YNWaN]

I'm surprised you were surprised - the red book brick wall filter means that CD has limited HF extension.

[YNWaN]

not bollocks at All simon unique design unlike anything on the market £ 1950 a pair - Taket Batmasters 15-150khz hence the bat in the name , also own there H2+ Headphones with supertweeters 10hz - 100khz best headphones in the world

http://www.scottnangle.co.uk/anchorwave_11.html

BATMASTER SUPERTWEETERS

Reference standard Supertweeters with ultra high frequency extension to 150khz ( 150,000 hertz )
Ideal for Bookshelf & Mini monitors speakers to Full range Horns , ESL , Planar & Dual concentric speakers

5 position sensivity adjustment to match output with main speakers 70,85,90,95,& 100dB
suitable for ultra low sensitivity ESL and Dynamic speakers to very high sensitivity horn speakers

Polymer Piezo Electric HEIL type Drivers with 15khz ultra steep slope cut-off to match with main speakers
Wooden case with brass horn , brass spiked feet for rigidity when mounting on top of main speakers

Superb increase in low level information , Air , Detail , Space , Imaging , Extension across the Full frequency spectrum low to high frequencies
Full range frequency response on ultrasonic information stored on Analogue , modern DSD/Sacd & Hi-rez digital media
Audible improvement to your system top to bottom from Bass , Midrange & Treble

Mofi 1/2 Speed masters contain information up to 122khz

GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ is a proprietary cutting system built and designed by legendary design genius Tim De Paravicini, with consultation from one of MFSL’s founding fathers – Stan Ricker, an audio engineer responsible for many of MFSL’s most heralded past releases.

The GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ system is comprised of a Studer™ tape machine with customized reproduction electronics* and handcrafted cutting amps that drive an Ortofon cutting head on a restored Neumann VMS-70 lathe. (*It is worth noting that independent studies have confirmed that the GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ system can unveil sonic information all the way up to 122kHz!)

Yeah, I'm aware of the Taket and piezo electric tweeters in general. I'm very skeptical about their 150K extension claims though - but will look in to it. The basic driver can be bought for vastly less than the price you mention though.

[cloth-ears]

I'm surprised you were surprised - the red book brick wall filter means that CD has limited HF extension.

So why the need for a super tweeter?

[YNWaN]

The red book limitations do not apply to SACD, DVD and vinyl...

[Macca]

I thought that CD brickwalled at 20KHz?

I'm sceptical that there is much beyond 12KHz on a vinyl record, noise perhaps.

If you can't hear it why bother? I know some people rate super tweeters but I'm sure that the difference is due to their audible output augmenting the exisiting tweeters. Some people do like it to sound a bit toppy.

[YNWaN]

Yep, that is what I thought before I tried some; doesn't sound brighter though.

[cloth-ears]

For those that missed a recent post this is a good test for hearing limits.

http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_frequency.php?frq=20

[realysm42]

I can't believe that, I can pick up 17Khz, despite 11 years of caning drum and bass raves and having tinnitus.

Made my day that has :yesbruv:


For those that missed a recent post this is a good test for hearing limits.

http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_frequency.php?frq=20

[daytona600]

Taket batmaster is a special version of the driver Mark , the one you mention is another types as used in the H2+ headphones or as they call them Earspeakers

not all CDs are brickwalled FIM ( First Impression Music ) UltraHd cds are 32bit /192Khz and sound simply sublime
Also Sacd/DVD-a/Bluray & Analogue extend well above 20khz

A Better CD Production Process - The Pure Reflection (PureFlection) Process:
Ultra High Definition 32-Bit Mastering is a proprietary ultra-high-quality mastering system. This leading-edge system has achieved unprecedented sonority and musicality, reproducing as closely as possible the sound of the original master tape! This format employs what is currently the highest attainable resolution bit depth (word length) in the professional audio field, i.e. 32-bit. 32-bit resolution makes possible maximized, undistorted dynamics, and the lowest noise floor, allowing even the quietest musical information to be heard more clearly. This breakthrough results from the development, through years of experience and application of advanced digital technology, of a sophisticated A/D and D/A processing system.

Ultra HD 32-Bit Mastering does not specify a sampling rate; this allows flexibility in meticulously choosing the appropriate bandwidth for a particular recording. The higher the sampling rate -- for example, 192 kHz -- the greater the bandwidth. However, merely employing the greatest bandwidth may not guarantee the ultimate sound. With some recordings, a lower sampling rate -- 96 or 176 kHz -- may offer better musicality and more homogeneous harmonics. This determination requires careful and discerning auditioning and professional judgment. In the end, the human being’s hearing and emotions should be the final arbiter, rather than the print-out of testing equipment or technical measurements.

Recognizing these variables, FIM nevertheless tries to use 32-bit depth and 192 kHz bandwidth whenever the original analog master is at hand. Alternatively, if the original recording is on 24/96, the 32/96 may eventually be used to maintain the integrity of the sonority particular to that recording. With this flexibility, First Impression Music believes that preeminent sound is only achievable when the chemistry of the recording, mastering, glass-stamper making, replication, and quality control is right. As always, listening is believing.

This recording has been mastered by the new Ultra High Definition 32-Bit Mastering process, which creates an unbelievable sound surpassing other formats!
FIM UHD CDs now sound undeniably better than ever! FIM's first priority is to locate a factory that at offers the latest technologies throughout its entire production chain, from the best A-grade polycarbonate materials, to testing and accurate quality control tools. The factory must produce a detailed specification sheet which ensures the discs produced demonstrate the same quality as the original recording.


To assure us of the best results, FIM has enlisted the help of one of the most experienced mastering engineers in the industry to craft the glass disc for the final replication process. Winston Ma continually maintains close rapport with him, as well as the original recording engineers, the mastering engineers and the manufacturer to achieve consensus regarding musicality and the sound spectrum.

FIM's glass mastering-disc engineer maintains expertise in the latest technologies: he currently uses a special blu-ray recordable mastering thermal process technique to create small smooth grooves which result in precision fidelity. He is meticulous in ensuring the best track pitch and the distance between the spiral of the pits, to reduce the amount of noise the tracking servo in the drive picks up from adjacent tracks, thus ensuring the best parameters on Cross Talk (XT) by minimizing the servo noise of the Drive during playback of the replica results.

To further ensure the best quality, FIM stipulates the most extensive test specification requirements. Pure Reflection (PureFlection) discs show in every CD booklet the full spectrum of specification of a given CD in the following categories:

BLER (17 items)
BERL (9 items)
Physical (6 items)
Jitter (6 items)
E22 Graph and
BLER Graph

The concept of UHD 32-Bit PureFlection is the transformation of a superior sound into something truly exceptional, enhancing the experience without interfering in it. Sit back, relax and listen to the new sound of a UHD 32-Bit PureFlection CD!

[YNWaN]

Taket batmaster is a special version of the driver Mark , the one you mention is another types as used in the H2+ headphones or as they call them Earspeakers

Ah, makes sense.

[sq225917]

If it's not 16 bit 44.1 in PCM format then it's not a CD you numpty, it's a computer data disc. It's either red book, or it's not.

Scott it's great that you think they can put 122khz onto vinyl it really is. Just one question though, where do you think it came from? Analogue tape will all be rolled off massively by the time it hits 18k never mind 28k, 122k is a joke. Sure some digital recordings have the capability to store info up there, but the studio mics don't reach that far and there's nowt on mofi under 10 years old so 192/24 wasn't even in studios.

It's pure marketing puffery and can be summed up thus. TDP made a pre-amp with 122k bandwidth- that's all. it says nothing about what can be put onto disc and at what level or where the music at 122k came from in the first place. Cos it sure as hell isn't on the 88/24 dat tape masters or analogue tape that wasaround during the 80/90's or any of the older analogue stuff from the 70's and 60's that comprises the rest of MoFi's output.

Taket claiming their drive units go up to 150k is meaningless, at what power level and with what reference to signal level at lower frequencies? And if it does, where's the measurements?

[daytona600]

They are Redbook & Play on CD Players - Ive lots of them and they are superb Best Cds i,ve ever heard

This Ultra HD 32-Bit CD will Play on ALL CD Players

This recording has been mastered by the new Ultra High Definition 32-Bit Mastering process, which creates an unbelievable sound surpassing other formats!

• Ambience of Analogue Sound
• Higher Resolution
• Undistorted Dynamics
• The Lowest Noise Floor, allowing even the quietest musical information to be heard more clearly!
• Richer Sound Field
• Master-Tape Quality Sound!!!
• Delivers what musicians originally intended!

http://fimftp.ehost-services163.com/fim/others/CF-1-BOOKLET.pdf

.......................

Lots of papers on ultra sonics - these supertweeters work as well

only use my ears - if it works i buy them would not drop £2k on tweeters & £2k on headphones if i did not like them

122khz on vinyl not my claim Simon but stan ricker from mobile fidelity & tim de paravinci

Mofi 1/2 Speed masters contain information up to 122khz

GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ is a proprietary cutting system built and designed by legendary design genius Tim De Paravicini, with consultation from one of MFSL’s founding fathers – Stan Ricker, an audio engineer responsible for many of MFSL’s most heralded past releases.

The GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ system is comprised of a Studer™ tape machine with customized reproduction electronics* and handcrafted cutting amps that drive an Ortofon cutting head on a restored Neumann VMS-70 lathe. (*It is worth noting that independent studies have confirmed that the GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ system can unveil sonic information all the way up to 122kHz!)

http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

[cloth-ears]

Hmm, its all well and good showing the sonic range of musical instruments but human hearing can only hear a relatively small portion of that. A standard light bulb produces not only visible light but also infrared and ultraviolet light, neither of which humans can see. I just can’t understand why one would make a speaker that can produce frequencies that an amplifier can’t provide and even if it could we couldn’t hear anyway. It seems like a solution to a nonexistent problem. :scratch:

[realysm42]

People hypothesize that the sounds you can't pick up interact with those that you can and improve the sound that way.

[Audioman]

They are Redbook & Play on CD Players - Ive lots of them and they are superb Best Cds i,ve ever heard

This Ultra HD 32-Bit CD will Play on ALL CD Players

This recording has been mastered by the new Ultra High Definition 32-Bit Mastering process, which creates an unbelievable sound surpassing other formats!

• Ambience of Analogue Sound
• Higher Resolution
• Undistorted Dynamics
• The Lowest Noise Floor, allowing even the quietest musical information to be heard more clearly!
• Richer Sound Field
• Master-Tape Quality Sound!!!
• Delivers what musicians originally intended!

http://fimftp.ehost-services163.com/fim/others/CF-1-BOOKLET.pdf

.......................

Lots of papers on ultra sonics - these supertweeters work as well

only use my ears - if it works i buy them would not drop £2k on tweeters & £2k on headphones if i did not like them

122khz on vinyl not my claim Simon but stan ricker from mobile fidelity & tim de paravinci

Mofi 1/2 Speed masters contain information up to 122khz

GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ is a proprietary cutting system built and designed by legendary design genius Tim De Paravicini, with consultation from one of MFSL’s founding fathers – Stan Ricker, an audio engineer responsible for many of MFSL’s most heralded past releases.

The GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ system is comprised of a Studer™ tape machine with customized reproduction electronics* and handcrafted cutting amps that drive an Ortofon cutting head on a restored Neumann VMS-70 lathe. (*It is worth noting that independent studies have confirmed that the GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ system can unveil sonic information all the way up to 122kHz!)

http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

I think you are misinterpreting the cutting limits of vinyl Scott. This is probably where you got 122khz from.
Since 1998, Mobile Fidelity has been using Studer A-80  ¼ inch tape machine, which was custom modified by audio designer Tim de Paravicini. The deck features custom high bandwidth playback heads and custom playback electronics. This machine exhibits frequency response, which is essentially flat from 10 Hz-44 kHz.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Fidelity_Sound_Lab#cite_note-3) Using this tape machine and a record cutting system (also designed by Pravicini), Mobile Fidelity engineers accidentally cut a 122 kHz tape bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape_bias) tone onto a record lacquer.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Fidelity_Sound_Lab#cite_note-4) Mobile Fidelity has revisited several albums with their new mastering chain that were previously released on the old UltraDisc 2 system. Some listeners have noted that the new mastering chain exhibits a 'tighter' sound, particularly in the bass frequencies.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Fidelity_Sound_Lab#cite_note-5)

I would say they might have damaged the cutting head in this 'accident'. Cutting heads roll off at 50Khz for half speed mastering and 25Khz for normal speed. However a test conducted on Supertramp Crime of The century did reveal 96Khz 'harmonic overtones' when converted to 24/196Khz digital. This certainly isn't in the range of the limited signal cut to disc. Since the roll of frequency is gentle as opposed to brick walled in digital it is conceivable that some higher frequencies remain at the limits. Anyway if you cut a full signal above 50Khz the cutter head would overheat and need expensive replacement. So significant musical information is not available above 50Khz on LP. Most standard LP cuts are half that.

http://www.channld.com/vinylanalysis1.html

As far as '32bit CD' is concerned it' must be downsampled to 16/44.1 at some stage. That's not saying that this mastering method reveals more info than standard CD. Most CD's don't exploit the already limited reproduction capabilities of the medium in any case.

[Macca]

There is nothing on a vinyl LP at 50KHz never mind significant musical information. Even if there was the best stylus in the world could not retrieve it and you could not hear it anyway. Let's argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin instead.

Scott - are these discs you are talking about the ones that are made out of glass? Or are they something different?

[daytona600]

Paul 50khz upper limit on the cutting head /Open Reel could be why Mofi half-speed master
100khz played at half speed = 50khz ish !! not a cutting engineer so could be very wrong Bought Mofi albums myself for 20+ years just for the sound quality
Mind you older titles 2nd hand are going for serious coin in the last few years

Martin no idea what they are made out off , think special glass masters & 99.999% silver discs
basically hand made jobs - Hand finished / polished limited editions jitter etc is about 95% lower than a normal CD
can send the full data sheet - but 0.55TB File

have a good selection of these myself & they truly sound superb

One of two members on this parrish have heard the FIM CDs before at my Gaff - Like the sheffield drum record no compression live drums with 14,000watt peak on my Active system at over 110dB+

they also produce 200g LPs with a new vinyl formula with built-in resonance control -