View Full Version : At what point does a weight/clamp make a difference?
It's a relatively quiet evening and I have been contemplating (affordable) upgrades.
I have been thinking about record weights and clamps. Before spending any money, I thought I would improvise with bits lying around the house to see if increased weight would make a difference to the sound.
I realise it's a bit rough and ready, but basically I used a CD spindle case (which covers the label nicely) and varied the weight between 250g to 950g by adding CD's.
My conclusion is that it made no audible difference to the sound. This was done as scientifically as possible, using my ReflexM/Solo Linear/ HD650 combination, replaying the same track with different weights.
I don't actually believe that a "proper" weight would make that much difference over my improvisation at this point in time, so obviously there are other things I need to do first. I think the next step for me is the RCA cable upgrade, as I am still running the stock cable. I would upgrade the arm cable, but that seems like a waste of money when I would like to change the arm in the near future.
The only thing I can't replicate easily is a clamp. Does a clamp like the KAB make a difference (in a good way) on a lightly modded deck?
Excuse my waffling, but as I said, it's a quiet evening. Cotes du Rhone and music was calling!
walpurgis
24-10-2013, 19:06
The record clamp thing is getting a bit daft these days. It seems the bigger and heavier the better with some folk, I can see redundant millstones having a second life here. :eyebrows:
I'm always concerned with the impact on turntable main bearings when heavy weights are employed. I use a fairly light clamp myself, as its only purpose as I see it is to provide a bit of damping and improve contact with the platter (which is always compromised due to records not being the flattest things about.
Clive197
24-10-2013, 19:26
Did similar tests myself a few months back. The only difference being is I used a proper TT weight of 430gms. I found no difference in sound nor did other members of the family.
Did similar tests myself a few months back. The only difference being is I used a proper TT weight of 430gms. I found no difference in sound nor did other members of the family.
Probably because you are using a cheap weight, the best ones cost but are easily detectable sound improvements wise, on the right TT of course as some don't need a weight, the Techy does.
Surely a weight is a weight? I don't see how an expensive 450g weight would be different to a cheap 450g weight?
I would have thought that the platter/mat/vinyl interface is probably more important?
That coupled with a decent tonearm and cartridge, and it could make a slight difference.
MikeMusic
24-10-2013, 20:05
Surely a weight is a weight? I don't see how an expensive 450g weight would be different to a cheap 450g weight?
I would have thought that the platter/mat/vinyl interface is probably more important?
That coupled with a decent tonearm and cartridge, and it could make a slight difference.
The difference the Stillpoints makes is quite something. It does have moving bits though
Wakefield Turntables
24-10-2013, 20:33
A decent 1210 may see marginal benefits from a record clamp, a michele record clamp at 20 quid is probably all you need. A lot of people believe that a record clamp alongside all the other tweeks adds something to the playback. I mainly use one for warped vinyl and thats about it. I dont see much of an improvement using a record clamp and I have a very modified 1210 (and yes I have tried record clamps from a few quid to several hundred). If you cant hear a difference using your record clamp then there probably isn't one to be had, don't be suckered into spending stupid money for something that might not help you out. ;)
Thing Fish
24-10-2013, 21:48
'At what point does a weight/clamp make a difference?'
At the point it stops looking cool. Then it fails to sound good.
I have a 580gm weight I use for slightly warped LPs, I used to use it all the time but when I bought a plattamat2 mat I found I didn't need it all the time.
I've tried quite a number of commercial weights and clamps and also made a number of my own. I have also tried many different commercial record mats and also made a wide range of my own. My conclusion is that both of these items can make a difference but it is easily disguised by other elements in the system and the difference a clamp makes is less than the difference a mat makes (though this obviously depends on the exact designs being compared).
walpurgis
24-10-2013, 22:52
I've tried quite a number of commercial weights and clamps and also made a number of my own. I have also tried many different commercial record mats and also made a wide range of my own. My conclusion is that both of these items can make a difference but it is easily disguised by other elements in the system and the difference a clamp makes is less than the difference a mat makes (though this obviously depends on the exact designs being compared).
Spot on!
My experience too. I've also found that massive, overweight clamps are pointless. You need a bit of weight and some damping characteristics, that's all.
trio leo
24-10-2013, 22:58
I'm afraid I have to agree with some posters, I use a record weight and I do because I feel it helps with keeping the record better secured to the platter for speed stability (maybe stops the disc slipping) and possibly some damping, but I have listened to the same tracks many times, weight on, weight off and I can't hear any difference.
I just do it because I feel better using one for my initial reasons.
Maybe it's just my deck?
enjoy your music
regards Al
My experience is that neither weight nor clamps do much to flatten warped records (unless threaded to the record spindle) and record slip simply does not exist. What they do is to couple the record more tightly to the record mat (and potentially load the bearing more and provide a path for bearing noise to better couple to the record - neither being good points).
machtman
25-10-2013, 05:58
Based on my limited experience (2 TTs), it depends on the TT. With my Notts Ace Spacedeck with heavy upgrade (now sold), I found a tremendous improvement in sound with an Oyaide aluminium mat and an additional dramatic improvement with an Oyaide weight. In contrast, the improvement was marginal with three other weights (Furutech, TT, Avid) or with a rubber no-name mat, Things got still better with the Stillpoints weight. The primary differences were cleaner bass and more music. I sold the Oyaide weight on Bay and the purchaser was very happy.
After shifting to a Verdier Nouvelle TT, it came with an Auditorium 23 textile mat and sounded superb. The Stillpoints weight deadened the sound and I sold both the Oyaide mat and the Stillpoints weight, who was also thrilled. So I'm not using a weight any more despite records that aren't flat and the only problem I've experienced was when one record fit so tightly on the spindle that it didn't touch the mat at all and was suspended in the air. It still tracked but sounded lousy.
I was also using different cartridges on the two TTs, a Dynavector XX-II on the Notts and an Ortofon SPU on the Verdier and different arms (SME IV 9 inch on the Notts and SME 3012 Series 2 on the Verdier) and don't know whether those are playing a role or not.
So I don't think one can generalise about this topic.
Mark
Audioman
25-10-2013, 08:35
Probably because you are using a cheap weight, the best ones cost but are easily detectable sound improvements wise, on the right TT of course as some don't need a weight, the Techy does.
A relatively inexpensive clamp/weight that works is the Michell. It is fairly light and doesn't rely on mass. The effectiveness and suitability of a weight depends on the design of the TT you use. In general heavy weights are unsuitable for suspended decks but work on say a Technics or Notts Analogue. Kevin needs to try some proper designs to see if there is an audible improvement. I predict there will be a difference but any perceived improvement is down to listener preference and TT design.
I agree that there is no one universal view, and my experience with pucks/weights/clamps has differed with the many turntables I've experimented with. On my current Trio L-07D, which came with the heavy-ish Trio DS-21 centre weight, I found that, whereas the sound was more solid, the music was somewhat deadened and rendered less enjoyable. However, this device gets a lot of use:
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/eon-research/pod.shtml
You can pick these up on auction sites: they may still be manufactured in Canada?
Again, the mat interface is also crucial. Swapping the stainless steel mat supplied with the L-07D for the Trio TS-10 ceramic mat had a far more beneficial effect on SQ. The pod also seems to compliment this set-up, the heavy weight does not. I've also tried a prototype of Mark's (YNWaN) mat, which allowed for a different presentation, again complimented by the Pod clamp.
Experimenting is always fun here, but I believe there is no need to spend silly sums of money on central clamps: I'd rather put it towards a better cartridge.
Clive197
25-10-2013, 10:13
While I did not experience any difference using a weight on my Techie, that could possibly be down to platter/mat/ feet combination. Centre spindles while supposed to be the same, probable aren't with some being on the larger end of in spec. This could cause a record to "stick" and a weight resolved the issue.
David of MCAU made the comment that I should use a "better" weight, don't suppose that he sells some fairly expensive item had anything to do with it or not but I really can't see the merit in that. The general consensus so far in this thread is that weight/pucks make little to no difference on non-warped discs, so I think I'm going to butt out on the rest of this thread and go have a drink (coffee).:cool:
My experience is with a Technics SL1200 Mk2.
I really didn't want to she'll out big bucks on a gamble.
It does seem that the whole vinyl to turntable interface needs to be carefully studied, and different designs and weight are to be used before I hit the sweet spot. Sounds expensive!
Ammonite Audio
25-10-2013, 12:21
There are so many variables with record weights/clamps, but I find that I do consistently prefer the 'feel' of the music when using a cheap KAB clamp (http://www.analogueseduction.net/record-clamps/kab-super-record-grip-bubble-level-record-clamp.html), compared with no clamp. The KAB clamp has very little mass, and just gently grips the spindle, pressing the record down with only slight pressure.
http://www.kabusa.com/GIF/srgmk2.JPG
The KAB clamp was an item I was thinking about trying.
Get the coolest looking one for £30 or less.
Other than that i feel it is a waste of cash.
Get the coolest looking one for £30 or less.
Other than that i feel it is a waste of cash.
+1 ... I guess if you have a good mat it would help.
Oldpinkman
26-10-2013, 08:11
I'm afraid I have to agree with some posters, I use a record weight and I do because I feel it helps with keeping the record better secured to the platter for speed stability (maybe stops the disc slipping) and possibly some damping, but I have listened to the same tracks many times, weight on, weight off and I can't hear any difference.
I just do it because I feel better using one for my initial reasons.
Maybe it's just my deck?
enjoy your music
regards Al
25 years ago I was experimenting with clamps, slowing under load, and slipping records on an acrylic platter. I painted a bit of tippex on a record and on the platter edge and aligned them, and played and played. The bit of tippex is still on the platter! :)
As I said earlier, record slip does not exist. Of course that has nothing to do with the under load characteristics of DC motors...
serendipitydawg
26-10-2013, 14:48
One man's "cheap" is another man's "expensive"
Re KAB @ £35, that's half what my current turntable cost!
Just buy a clear audio cleverclamp for £20 and be done with it :)
daytona600
26-10-2013, 15:53
I had no choice about weights/clamps myself as all my decks in the last 30years had one as standard oracle/acoustic signature
went one stage further this week with my new deck a three box Sota with a vacuum platter & weight clamp
Just buy a clear audio cleverclamp for £20 and be done with it :)
I made one but didn't think it was much good :(.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/1-7.jpg
--------
Vacuum platter decks almost always have something to cover the spindle - to help create the air lock.
I have used the KAB clamp and a acrylic weight- made no difference to sound quality to my ears. There is also the need to stop the platter every time you change a record.
Thanks for all the replies. I don't think I am going to bother yet.
It sounds like at the moment, it will be like putting lipstick on a pig.
I may try one once all the other upgrades are completed, and I have nothing left to do.
Frankyc2003
27-10-2013, 10:36
A cheap way of scratching the itch...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carbon-Steel-Record-turntable-stabilizer-Weight-Clamp-for-domestic-and-DJ-use-/331047519821?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d13f8464d
I have one and its fantastic value for money I would say... Whether it helps or not, not sure... LP feel more secured to the platter.
Hmm...the magnet in a MC cartridge will be quite strongly attracted to it - as it is carbon steel; this may be an issue at the end of a record.
My TT was designed to have a clamp. The platter is machined as a very shallow cone and the clamp not only couples the disc better to the TT but also flattens most warps.
I would imagine the effect of a weight or clamp would be entirely dependant on the design of the record player it is used on.
My TT was designed to have a clamp. The platter is machined as a very shallow cone and the clamp not only couples the disc better to the TT but also flattens most warps.
I would imagine the effect of a weight or clamp would be entirely dependant on the design of the record player it is used on.
+1.
The fun is in ascertaining what sonic benefits there are (if any) with the use of a clamp or weight, on a T/T that wasn't specifically designed to be used with one in the first place! ;)
Personally, I've yet to hear a turntable that doesn't benefit positively in some way, with the use of the right clamp or weight. The trick, however, is in finding the right one (when the choice hasn't been predetermined by the manufacturer)..........
Marco.
pure sound
30-10-2013, 10:30
As I said earlier, record slip does not exist. Of course that has nothing to do with the under load characteristics of DC motors...
Or the degree to which a lightweight sprung subchassis can be pulled around by said motor once the stylus is trying to stop the platter from rotating.
Probably because you are using a cheap weight, the best ones cost but are easily detectable sound improvements wise, on the right TT of course as some don't need a weight, the Techy does.
I'm sorry, no offence, you may even be right as I have never really experimented with record weights, but your remark made me laugh - thinking what my non-audiophile friends would say if I told them expensive weights sound better than cheap weights... crazy hobby this!!
But...this made me laugh even more: "This extra heavy century old ebony root which were immersed in the swamps of Africa has a unique power that no other wood possesses. The vibration generated by the diamond stylus in the vinyl groove besides inducing an electroflux through the phono-cartridge also excites the ebony molecules, causing it to resonate. This in turn is feed back through the stylus and is reproduced as expanded sound staging, enhanced separation, sharpened focus and enriched tonal balance of the music. "
A £2.5k weight must sound pretty special I guess, with all the resonating molecules and whatnot...
http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/Shun-Mook-Ultimate-Large-Record-Clamp/product_4754
But...this made me laugh even more: "This extra heavy century old ebony root which were immersed in the swamps of Africa has a unique power that no other wood possesses. The vibration generated by the diamond stylus in the vinyl groove besides inducing an electroflux through the phono-cartridge also excites the ebony molecules, causing it to resonate. This in turn is feed back through the stylus and is reproduced as expanded sound staging, enhanced separation, sharpened focus and enriched tonal balance of the music. "
A £2.5k weight must sound pretty special I guess, with all the resonating molecules and whatnot...
http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/Shun-Mook-Ultimate-Large-Record-Clamp/product_4754
:lol: :lol: :mental: :mental:
That bullshite gives serious hi-fi a bad name!
Marco.
I have a SOFT clamp.....sounds quite good but it was cheapish so.............
Its all bullshite, if you are paying anything more than £3 delivered then you're being ripped off son. :D
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/IMG_0190.jpg
I was thinking of an ice hockey puck, with a hole drilled dead centre.
I was thinking of an ice hockey puck, with a hole drilled dead centre.
why bother mate, the clearaudio clever clamp cost £20 and seems to do a good job
been trying it for a month now
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/ALL%20MCRU%20POWER%20LEADS/cleverclamp_zpsbcd408cd.jpg
Its all bullshite, if you are paying anything more than £3 delivered then you're being ripped off son. :D
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/IMG_0190.jpg
cost 10 x that so I was really ripped off!
http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj505/struthsbowler/odds%20n%20sods/IMG_20131102_154658_153.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/struthsbowler/media/odds%20n%20sods/IMG_20131102_154658_153.jpg.html)
why bother mate, the clearaudio clever clamp cost £20 and seems to do a good job
been trying it for a month now
Sorry, but I didn't think a lot of it (though I liked the idea behind it).
Groove Junkie
21-11-2013, 13:43
I too tried a little experiment. I stuck four little bits of double-sided sticky tape on the platter under the mat to see if stopping the mat slipping would make any difference and I think it has. I'm sure it sounds a little better. I did this to see if using a clamp would make any difference. This still doesn't sort any warping so I am waiting 'til Christmas to open the box from Clearaudio and twist on the twister.
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