View Full Version : IF cost was no objective what phonostage would you own?
Wakefield Turntables
20-10-2013, 19:56
I'm looking at upgrading my Sugden Phonostage. I'd like a few ideas, my budget could be upto £10K.
A £10K phono stage is imbalanced with your current kit. Allnic H-3000 looks about right with a lapse of reason, though:)
Audioman
20-10-2013, 20:20
I've heard good things about the Aurorasound Vida (imported by Puresound). Including best heard at any price. Under £3K. I was also impressed by the Longdog if you want a modern Valve design.
Wakefield Turntables
20-10-2013, 20:24
A £10K phono stage is imbalanced with your current kit. Allnic H-3000 looks about right with a lapse of reason, though:)
Why imbalanced? I've heard people say nice things about Allnic I'll put it on the short list.
I've heard good things about the Aurorasound Vida (imported by Puresound). Including best heard at any price. Under £3K. I was also impressed by the Longdog if you want a modern Valve design.
Heard the Long Dog audio design, very impressed but I felt my current setup slighly bettered it. Thanks for the tip re puresound.
The Paradise stage I now use is, by some margin, the best phono stage I have encountered.
I've not heard the Vida but I trust Guy's ears and have no doubt that it will be a bit special.
With that kind of money I go to a couple of dealers and over a 3 month period I try as many as I could I then decide
Wakefield Turntables
20-10-2013, 20:26
The Paradise stage I now use is, by some margin, the best phono stage I have encountered.
Yep I heard about it but wouldn't it now be difficult to get? What sort of outlay are we looking at for one of these. Send me a PM if you don't want to divulge on the open forum. ;) Additionally, isn't this supposed to be updated as well?
Wakefield Turntables
20-10-2013, 20:28
With that kind of money I go to a couple of dealers and over a 3 month period I try as many as I could I then decide
im making a short list.
topoxforddoc
20-10-2013, 20:28
Another option might be a TRON Seven in whatever spec you can afford. I have a TRON Seven Reference built specially to match my Decca C4E. It is seriously good. If I had hods of cash, maybe I would go for a GT spec with separate PSU.
Yep I heard about it but wouldn't it now be difficult to get? What sort of outlay are we looking at for one of these. Send me a PM if you don't want to divulge on the open forum. ;) Additionally, isn't this supposed to be updated as well?
Not updated - I think you are probably referring to the Calvin buffer stage - but that is an optional add-on element to the existing build (a separate board that fits piggyback on to it).
It is likely that interest is sufficiently high for another group buy to be organised in the near future.
Why imbalanced? I've heard people say nice things about Allnic I'll put it on the short list.
Well, I think a 10K stage warrants a better cartridge but then again you may not agree.
Origin Live TT/arm/IO/Kondo S6/MM stage of an Audio Note M5/Audio Note P4s/AN Es worked brilliantly - one of the best set ups I've come across for a vinyl front end.
That IO/Kondo thing really DOES work.
Wakefield Turntables
20-10-2013, 21:03
Another option might be a TRON Seven in whatever spec you can afford. I have a TRON Seven Reference built specially to match my Decca C4E. It is seriously good. If I had hods of cash, maybe I would go for a GT spec with separate PSU.
Just been reading the review of the GT spec Tron, it's £10K give or take 50 quid. For a stage this expensive you'd need a few weeks with it.
If cost was no object, then some of the very best phono stages would still be within reach as it seems to be another area where more cost doesn't = better performance. RIAA equalisation and gain stages are relatively straight forwards to implement, there's no magic involved. Those implemented really well can still be had for under a grand. I'd be very happy with a Graham Slee Era V with upgraded PSU. The power supply is often where short cuts are made.
If cost was no object, then some of the very best phono stages would still be within reach as it seems to be another area where more cost doesn't = better performance. RIAA equalisation and gain stages are relatively straight forwards to implement, there's no magic involved. Those implemented really well can still be had for under a grand. I'd be very happy with a Graham Slee Era V with upgraded PSU. The power supply is often where short cuts are made.
From an engineering point of view, seemingly true. But there's foo at play and I don't believe it is that clear cut.
Hearing an AN S3 SUT versus a Kondo S6 really makes you realise all is not as perhaps it seems. Unless an AN S3 is technically flawed, of course. Or the S6 is. If neither are, one of them is definitely doing something the other isn't in a way a room full of people can easily appreciate.
How pleasant to be invited to spend as much as you want.....not an experience I am too familiar with. Anyway, in this fantasy I will have a Thomas Meyer handbuilt six box phonostage, with all transformers (a lot) in silver. With matching silver step-up. I suspect you could buy a very expensive Porsche for similar cash; if you're feeling generous, perhaps I could have both? 911 Carrera4S, in dark grey. Phonostage...whatever colour you nominate. My thanks. Most appreciative.
If restricted to a measly 10k (spoilsport!) I'd be stuck....because your system could surely enjoy some of that cash sprinkled elsewhere. So, I'd replace your deck with a new SME 20-3. Sell your Technics and buy a Croft phonostage, the best you can afford.
Or would you prefer the Porsche?
If cost were no object I would think about the Zesto Audio Andros. I haven't heard it but it is a Class A Stereophile component, has lots of valves and looks £10Ks worth! I think I a positive review by Michael Fremer. As an aside I like his reviews as he does not make excuses about a product's shortcomings.
If cost was no object, then some of the very best phono stages would still be within reach as it seems to be another area where more cost doesn't = better performance. RIAA equalisation and gain stages are relatively straight forwards to implement, there's no magic involved. Those implemented really well can still be had for under a grand. I'd be very happy with a Graham Slee Era V with upgraded PSU. The power supply is often where short cuts are made.
I totally agree with the latter - it is also what costs the most! Serious attention to power supply arrangements is one of the things that sets truly the BEST phonostages apart from the rest. Oh, and also glowing bottles (and a top-notch SUT), when implemented optimally with the right cartridge... ;)
Another vote for the Allnic (a truly superb sounding device)! :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
21-10-2013, 07:18
How about the top end Whest ?
The MC Ref is £9999 which seems to fit your budget
:)
http://www.whestaudio.co.uk/phono-stage/mc_ref_v.php
One on offer ATM for £7999
http://www.whestaudio.co.uk/phono-stage/b-grade.php
Andy, in that scenario (if the Whest was chosen), would you be retaining the use of your ST-80 SUT? IME, to date, any MC cartridge I've heard has sounded eons better used via a quality SUT, than directly through the MC input of a phonostage.
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
21-10-2013, 08:35
Well, I think a 10K stage warrants a better cartridge but then again you may not agree.
Origin Live TT/arm/IO/Kondo S6/MM stage of an Audio Note M5/Audio Note P4s/AN Es worked brilliantly - one of the best set ups I've come across for a vinyl front end.
That IO/Kondo thing really DOES work.
I've not heard any of the components that you list so I can't comment. I've a budget upto 10k, that's not to say that I would spend 10k.
If cost was no object, then some of the very best phono stages would still be within reach as it seems to be another area where more cost doesn't = better performance. RIAA equalisation and gain stages are relatively straight forwards to implement, there's no magic involved. Those implemented really well can still be had for under a grand. I'd be very happy with a Graham Slee Era V with upgraded PSU. The power supply is often where short cuts are made.
I agree. I heard a tri chord Diablo and ncpsu compared to a whest 3.0rdtse and I thought the tri chord sent the whest packing with a clean pair of heels and was significantly cheaper.
How pleasant to be invited to spend as much as you want.....not an experience I am too familiar with. Anyway, in this fantasy I will have a Thomas Meyer handbuilt six box phonostage, with all transformers (a lot) in silver. With matching silver step-up. I suspect you could buy a very expensive Porsche for similar cash; if you're feeling generous, perhaps I could have both? 911 Carrera4S, in dark grey. Phonostage...whatever colour you nominate. My thanks. Most appreciative.
If restricted to a measly 10k (spoilsport!) I'd be stuck....because your system could surely enjoy some of that cash sprinkled elsewhere. So, I'd replace your deck with a new SME 20-3. Sell your Technics and buy a Croft phonostage, the best you can afford.
Or would you prefer the Porsche?
Thanks, but remember budget is upto 10k.
How about the top end Whest ?
The MC Ref is £9999 which seems to fit your budget
:)
http://www.whestaudio.co.uk/phono-stage/mc_ref_v.php
One on offer ATM for £7999
http://www.whestaudio.co.uk/phono-stage/b-grade.php
Yep heard the 3.0rdtse and my sugden and ortofon st80se SUT produced the same results and for about 1k less than the cost of the phonostage. I've never heard the V, so I presume it would be a massive step up in performance over the 3.0rdtse.
Andy, in that scenario (if the Whest was chosen), would you be retaining the use of your ST-80 SUT? IME, to date, any MC cartridge I've heard has sounded eons better used via a quality SUT, than directly through the MC input of a phonostage.
Marco.
I tried the whest 3.0rdtse with a the 80se and they simply didn't get on, I ended up sending the whest back for repair twice and eventually lost patience with it. The small amount of time that it did work I noticed I didn't get that much of an increase in performance over what I already had. I would have had to pay an extra grand for a very small Increase in performance. Finally, I may decide to upgrade the 80se with a choir sut.
£10,000? WD pre3/phono3 and a Lotus Elise! :)
Not sure if this LFD Battery Disc is still available: http://unique-audio.co.uk/used/phono-stages/
It was built for SME's R&D / testing department & think it's still used...
topoxforddoc
21-10-2013, 09:14
£10,000? WD pre3/phono3 and a Lotus Elise! :)
I had a WD Phono3/PSU prior to my TRON Seven Reference. The TRON is a massive upgrade over the WD, which is itself a very good phono stage. There are very few further stages costing less than £2000, which are better than the WD.
MikeMusic
21-10-2013, 09:17
Oh yes. As Marco says you need a SUT too
I tried the whest 3.0rdtse with a the 80se and they simply didn't get on, I ended up sending the whest back for repair twice and eventually lost patience with it. The small amount of time that it did work I noticed I didn't get that much of an increase in performance over what I already had. I would have had to pay an extra grand for a very small Increase in performance. Finally, I may decide to upgrade the 80se with a choir sut.
Regarding the bit in bold, that's interesting... I think that every SUT which has been tried with Martin T's Whest, in conjunction with the MM input, has sounded WAY better than when the MC stage was used directly. Therefore, I suspect that the above mismatch is more to do with whatever cartridge you've been using, than with the combination of the ST80SE/Whest.
This also demonstrates just how important it is to find an SUT which, first and foremost, performs synergistically with the cartridge that is going to be used. Once done, one can then consider the (final) choice of phono stage. In that respect, you'll need to ensure that 'upgrading' to a Choir SUT is the reality, rather than it simply being a side-grade.
I'd be tempted to retain the ST-80SE (since your primary cartridge is an Ortofon Cadenza Black), whilst you're auditioning alterative phono stages, and only change the SUT if after obtaining your new phono stage it becomes obvious that the ST-80SE is the weak link.
Marco.
purite audio
21-10-2013, 09:41
The quietest phono stage currently available, it also has the most accurate RIAA curve is the balanced design by Dietmar Brauaer of Trintiy Audio.
http://www.trinity-ed.de/typo/index.php?id=17&L=1
Keith.
MikeMusic
21-10-2013, 09:46
I tried the whest 3.0rdtse with a the 80se and they simply didn't get on, I ended up sending the whest back for repair twice and eventually lost patience with it. The small amount of time that it did work I noticed I didn't get that much of an increase in performance over what I already had. I would have had to pay an extra grand for a very small Increase in performance. Finally, I may decide to upgrade the 80se with a choir sut.
Fairly close to that I have a ST80SE going into a Whest .30r and it works very well
Beobloke
21-10-2013, 10:16
£10,000? WD pre3/phono3 and a Lotus Elise! :)
:lol::lol:
Funnily enough, my first thought was an Anatek MCR and a TVR Griffith to carry it home in!
The quietest phono stage currently available, it also has the most accurate RIAA curve is the balanced design by Dietmar Brauaer of Trintiy Audio.
http://www.trinity-ed.de/typo/index.php?id=17&L=1
Keith.
Yes, but what kind of daftee would buy a £10k+ phono stage on specs alone? Anyone who did that would need their head examined...!
Marco.
:lol::lol:
Funnily enough, my first thought was an Anatek MCR and a TVR Griffith to carry it home in!
you'd need to factor in a good percentage then Adam for petrol and servicing just to get you home not to mention a neck brace to cover the whip-lash from the back end breaking away most of the trip :lol: probably worth it for the grin factor alone though, so I'm with you on that one.
Yes, but what kind of daftee would by a £10k phono stage on specs alone? Anyone who did that would need their head examined...!
Marco.
+1
Rare Bird
21-10-2013, 10:35
Beats me why MM phono stages have to be so complicated! :scratch:
Alex Nikitin
21-10-2013, 10:36
I'm looking at upgrading my Sugden Phonostage. I'd like a few ideas, my budget could be upto £10K.
You may try my Kora 3T MC Limited Edition with a battery power. It will be a near perfect match for the cartridge you use for about 1/10 of your maximum budget.
Cheers
Alex
purite audio
21-10-2013, 13:05
Yes, but what kind of daftee would buy a £10k+ phono stage on specs alone? Anyone who did that would need their head examined...!
Marco.
Yes why would anyone want to hear what is actually on the record when they can have a 'version' of it!
Keith.
The best phono stage i've had the pleasure of listening to is the Tom Evans MasterGroove. Of course there are contenders out there, but this really blew my fuses!
Dont know price, but think it would fit in the OP's price bracket.
Regards /Mike
...has sounded eons better...
Marco.
A bit pedantic of me, but an eon is a period of time - you wouldn't say something is days, weeks, months or years better :).
Wakefield Turntables
21-10-2013, 13:25
£10,000? WD pre3/phono3 and a Lotus Elise! :)
Not heard of this one so will add to list and comment later
Not sure if this LFD Battery Disc is still available: http://unique-audio.co.uk/used/phono-stages/
It was built for SME's R&D / testing department & think it's still used...
Interesting design but I think I will pass on this one. I have already started consulting with various people about the Phonostage design and whilst this design looks very very good its not quite as good as the design I have planned.
I had a WD Phono3/PSU prior to my TRON Seven Reference. The TRON is a massive upgrade over the WD, which is itself a very good phono stage. There are very few further stages costing less than £2000, which are better than the WD.
So that's another recommendation for the tron, many thanks.
Oh yes. As Marco says you need a SUT too
I do have a sut, it's the same as yours.
Regarding the bit in bold, that's interesting... I think that every SUT which has been tried with Martin T's Whest, in conjunction with the MM input, has sounded WAY better than when the MC stage was used directly. Therefore, I suspect that the above mismatch is more to do with whatever cartridge you've been using, than with the combination of the ST80SE/Whest.
This also demonstrates just how important it is to find an SUT which, first and foremost, performs synergistically with the cartridge that is going to be used. Once done, one can then consider the (final) choice of phono stage. In that respect, you'll need to ensure that 'upgrading' to a Choir SUT is the reality, rather than it simply being a side-grade.
I'd be tempted to retain the ST-80SE (since your primary cartridge is an Ortofon Cadenza Black), whilst you're auditioning alterative phono stages, and only change the SUT if after obtaining your new phono stage it becomes obvious that the ST-80SE is the weak link.
Marco.
Possibly but i had the whest setup by James himself to match the ortofon cadenza black. Thanks for the advice, noted.
The quietest phono stage currently available, it also has the most accurate RIAA curve is the balanced design by Dietmar Brauaer of Trintiy Audio.
http://www.trinity-ed.de/typo/index.php?id=17&L=1
This is another suggestion. Thanks, I shall put it on the list.
Keith.
Fairly close to that I have a ST80SE going into a Whest .30r and it works very well
you'd need to factor in a good percentage then Adam for petrol and servicing just to get you home not to mention a neck brace to cover the whip-lash from the back end breaking away most of the trip :lol: probably worth it for the grin factor alone though, so I'm with you on that one.
+1
Stick to thread discussion please rather than drift.
You may try my Kora 3T MC Limited Edition with a battery power. It will be a near perfect match for the cartridge you use for about 1/10 of your maximum budget.
Cheers
Alex
Many thanks. I may just do that!
The best phono stage i've had the pleasure of listening to is the Tom Evans MasterGroove. Of course there are contenders out there, but this really blew my fuses!
Dont know price, but think it would fit in the OP's price bracket.
Regards /Mike
Yep master groove is another name that has popped up frequently.
I shall over the next few night be compiling a list of candidates.
Possibly but i had the whest setup by James himself to match the ortofon cadenza black. Thanks for the advice, noted.
No worries. However, was the ST-80SE in the equation when James set up the Whest to match the Cadenza?
If not, the parameters will have changed. The only way to achieve synergy (if an SUT is going to be used) is when it, together with the cartridge and phonostage, are judged as a pairing :)
Marco.
A bit pedantic of me, but an eon is a period of time - you wouldn't say something is days, weeks, months or years better :).
Lol, true. It's just a figure of speech which is sometimes used (although perhaps not by you) :)
Marco.
Yes why would anyone want to hear what is actually on the record when they can have a 'version' of it!
Keith.
Yes, but that's not the argument. The fact is, regardless of how quiet or 'accurate' it was, any sensible person, with as much sense as money, would want to listen to a £10k phono stage (preferably in the context of his or her system) FIRST before buying it!!
:exactly:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
21-10-2013, 13:59
No worries. However, was the ST-80SE in the equation when James set up the Whest to match the Cadenza?
If not, the parameters will have changed. The only way to achieve synergy (if an SUT is going to be used) is when it, together with the cartridge and phonostage, are judged as a pairing :)
Marco.
No because James didn't seem to think that I needed a sut with his phonostage. I won't elaborate the conversion I had with him but the general feeling I had afterwards left me feeling none plused with his attitude.
That doesn't surprise me as he's not a fan of using SUTs.
Each to his or her own. However, I'm sure you'll agree that the proof of the pudding is in the listening, and any Whest phono stage I've heard (indeed, any phono stage, period) has benefited, sonically, from the use of a high-quality SUT, whenever a similarly high-quality low-output MC cartridge was in the equation.
Trust me, Andy, if you want to hear your vinyl collection really come alive, then listening to the Allnic H-3000 (which has superb built-in and fully adjustable SUTs) is a MUST!! :)
Info here: http://www.lotus340r.net/items/h3000.htm
When I heard it in a friend's system, it redefined for me just what is possible from vinyl replay.
Marco.
sq225917
21-10-2013, 14:33
Andy, I suggest you bring your current phonostage round to mine with your favourite records and you can hear how it compares to the Paradise. I have a set of completed boards already built up and out on loan with a friend. If you were interested we could come to an agreement on price. Borrow the Alnic and bring that round if you fancy.
But honestly, I'd suggest you go out and listen to everything you want to hear first, and save the best for last. ;-)
MikeMusic
21-10-2013, 14:37
No because James didn't seem to think that I needed a sut with his phonostage. I won't elaborate the conversion I had with him but the general feeling I had afterwards left me feeling none plused with his attitude.
Said the same to me
I politely disagreed
...as indeed I believe did Martin.
I like James, and there is plenty of evidence around which proves that he is one of the industry's good guys and knows how to treat his customers, but as is the case with many audio designers, his views can be somewhat rigid and dogmatic, and so it's a case of 'I know best', rather than the healthier, more open-minded approach of: 'I know what I know, but you may have learned something new which I've yet to discover'.
Few audio designers, IME, have the humility to accept that in some cases the latter may be true! ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
21-10-2013, 15:28
That doesn't surprise me as he's not a fan of using SUTs.
Each to his or her own. However, I'm sure you'll agree that the proof of the pudding is in the listening, and any Whest phono stage I've heard (indeed, any phono stage, period) has benefited, sonically, from the use of a high-quality SUT, whenever a similarly high-quality low-output MC cartridge was in the equation.
Trust me, Andy, if you want to hear your vinyl collection really come alive, then listening to the Allnic H-3000 (which has superb built-in and fully adjustable SUTs) is a MUST!! :)
Info here: http://www.lotus340r.net/items/h3000.htm
When I heard it in a friend's system, it redefined for me just what is possible from vinyl replay.
Marco.
Marco, I agree that indeed the proof is in the pudding , I had my ST80SE for 24h and I'd already sent the cheque off to pay for it. However in this instance and in my system the Whest did not fit. I square peg in a round hole if you like. I've now finished my MSc so i'm currently looking for something new to do and this current phonostage project is my latest project. I'm currently getting my head around the subject of how phonostages work so a lot of this is new! The idea of an intrinsic SUT is not a new one to me and one that I may implement on a possible design.
Andy, I suggest you bring your current phonostage round to mine with your favourite records and you can hear how it compares to the Paradise. I have a set of completed boards already built up and out on loan with a friend. If you were interested we could come to an agreement on price. Borrow the Alnic and bring that round if you fancy.
But honestly, I'd suggest you go out and listen to everything you want to hear first, and save the best for last. ;-)
Your not that far down the road and i might get to see your excellent Krell amp! Send me a PM with prices for the Paradise boards, I may just purchase those for my second setup as well.
Said the same to me
I politely disagreed
WOW, nice to see that I'm not the only one.
...as indeed I believe did Martin.
I like James, and there is plenty of evidence around which proves that he is one of the industry's good guys and knows how to treat his customers, but as is the case with many audio designers, his views can be somewhat rigid and dogmatic, and so it's a case of 'I know best', rather than the healthier, more open-minded approach of: 'I know what I know, but you may have learned something new which I've yet to discover'.
Few audio designers, IME, have the humility to accept that in some cases the latter may be true! ;)
Marco.
I have no doubt the James is a "good" guy, I'd rather not comment any further on the topic Marco. Lets stick to the topic at hand and not drift. ;)
sq225917
21-10-2013, 16:37
You better be quick the krell will be gone by Monday.
Indeed, each to his own. But if this is a serious exercise, rather than a bit of fun, the question of system balance won't go away so easily. For instance, the Technics , upgraded, is a nice deck, but when you talk about 10K for a phonostage you are talking world class...and, in my opinion, the Technics isn't at a commensurate level. Then there are the cartridges, mid-range Ortofon and the cheapest Koetsu. Both fine cartridges, but again, not world class (buy a Urushi and spend £6000 on the phonostage, for example.) And then, I don't see that the 3012 s a good match with a low compliance Koetsu (I have both.)
Yes, I think this is best seen as a 'fun' exercise. BTW: I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the LFD phonostage. It could make a case as one of the finest phonostages ever built. Your chances of 'designing' something better are not huge. Wish I could afford one!
Hope my candid remarks don't cause offense, but there is serious money being talked about here.
purite audio
21-10-2013, 17:28
That doesn't surprise me as he's not a fan of using SUTs.
Each to his or her own. However, I'm sure you'll agree that the proof of the pudding is in the listening, and any Whest phono stage I've heard (indeed, any phono stage, period) has benefited, sonically, from the use of a high-quality SUT, whenever a similarly high-quality low-output MC cartridge was in the equation.
Trust me, Andy, if you want to hear your vinyl collection really come alive, then listening to the Allnic H-3000 (which has superb built-in and fully adjustable SUTs) is a MUST!! :)
Info here: http://www.lotus340r.net/items/h3000.htm
When I heard it in a friend's system, it redefined for me just what is possible from vinyl replay.
Marco.
This reminds me ,I still have some Allnic gear from when we used to import them, I have the large phono and a set of their amps, quite a. few step ups,...
I will make a list.
Keith.
topoxforddoc
21-10-2013, 18:28
I posted a review on my TRON Seven Reference on Wigwam a little while ago.
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?92665-Seven-Heaven-TRON-style
I bought a TRON Seven Reference MM only designed with 33k loading for my Decca C4E. The rest of my system is a Platine Verdier, Hadcock 228 (J7 rewired) & Decca C4E AND Schroeder Model 2 & Allaerts MC1B into a TRON Meteor preamp with on-board MC phono (for the Allaerts), TRON Voyager and Avantgarde Duos. Musical tastes are very eclectic.
This has been assembled over 35 years. The only original pieces of equipment I now use are my Hadcock and a Garrott Brothers Decca Gold from my days working at Canterbury Hi-Fi with Ken Kessler in the late 70s. I got into valves and Deccas at that time - quite hard for schmucks like me not to, when faced with the East Coast guru. Sadly I sold my Quad IIs this year, which I bought from Ken in 1980; but I just wasn’t going to use them after buying the Voyager.
So please excuse my rather rose tinted glasses in my review and my ingrained hi-fi prejudices. But I only buy a new piece of equipment every few years, so I take my time to choose carefully.
Charlie
www.charlie-chan.co.uk
Wakefield Turntables
21-10-2013, 18:40
You better be quick the krell will be gone by Monday.
No worries if its gone it gone!
Indeed, each to his own. But if this is a serious exercise, rather than a bit of fun, the question of system balance won't go away so easily. For instance, the Technics , upgraded, is a nice deck, but when you talk about 10K for a phonostage you are talking world class...and, in my opinion, the Technics isn't at a commensurate level. Then there are the cartridges, mid-range Ortofon and the cheapest Koetsu. Both fine cartridges, but again, not world class (buy a Urushi and spend £6000 on the phonostage, for example.) And then, I don't see that the 3012 s a good match with a low compliance Koetsu (I have both.)
Yes, I think this is best seen as a 'fun' exercise. BTW: I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the LFD phonostage. It could make a case as one of the finest phonostages ever built. Your chances of 'designing' something better are not huge. Wish I could afford one!
Hope my candid remarks don't cause offense, but there is serious money being talked about here.
Peter I'm not interested in your assessment of where my system could be improved, the question is about phonostages, you made a valid suggestion and I thankyou for that, otherwise the rest of your posts have basically drifted so far from the original threads topic I can't see their relevancy :scratch: If you have nothing valid or worthwhile saying then please DONT! It saves my time and yours.
Wakefield Turntables
21-10-2013, 18:48
I posted a review on my TRON Seven Reference on Wigwam a little while ago.
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?92665-Seven-Heaven-TRON-style
I bought a TRON Seven Reference MM only designed with 33k loading for my Decca C4E. The rest of my system is a Platine Verdier, Hadcock 228 (J7 rewired) & Decca C4E AND Schroeder Model 2 & Allaerts MC1B into a TRON Meteor preamp with on-board MC phono (for the Allaerts), TRON Voyager and Avantgarde Duos. Musical tastes are very eclectic.
This has been assembled over 35 years. The only original pieces of equipment I now use are my Hadcock and a Garrott Brothers Decca Gold from my days working at Canterbury Hi-Fi with Ken Kessler in the late 70s. I got into valves and Deccas at that time - quite hard for schmucks like me not to, when faced with the East Coast guru. Sadly I sold my Quad IIs this year, which I bought from Ken in 1980; but I just wasn’t going to use them after buying the Voyager.
So please excuse my rather rose tinted glasses in my review and my ingrained hi-fi prejudices. But I only buy a new piece of equipment every few years, so I take my time to choose carefully.
Charlie
www.charlie-chan.co.uk
Charlie, many thanks for your valued input. I'm not really a MM man. I can clearly see that we are beginning to see several contenders mainly something from Tron or Allnic.
No worries if its gone it gone!
Peter I'm not interested in your assessment of where my system could be improved, the question is about phonostages, you made a valid suggestion and I thankyou for that, otherwise the rest of your posts have basically drifted so far from the original threads topic I can't see their relevancy :scratch: If you have nothing valid or worthwhile saying then please DONT! It saves my time and yours.
What a charming man.. Interesting that you assume to know what is 'valid or worthwhile'. That generally comes from gaining knowledge and open debate. You don't 'own' the topic and its not for you to dictate what fellow forum members can comment on. Threads usually stray all over the place, it's part of the fun. And sometimes these random turns prove valuable to someone, if not to you. It's a public forum, not a private chat. I wouldn't presume to tell you what you can say on a thread, you might show the same basic politeness. And talking of politeness, please don't be rude and then presume to address me by my Christian name. And words such as 'DON'T' in capital letters are not too classy either. Anyway, I've seen enough.
Wakefield Turntables
21-10-2013, 19:38
please don't address me as 'Peter'.
Fine if I cant address you by name I'll not bother addressing you at all and simply ignore you.
Spectral Morn
21-10-2013, 19:41
The quietest phono stage currently available, it also has the most accurate RIAA curve is the balanced design by Dietmar Brauaer of Trintiy Audio.
http://www.trinity-ed.de/typo/index.php?id=17&L=1
Keith.
That looks like an interesting design Keith.
Regards Neil
Stratmangler
21-10-2013, 19:48
I'm still trying to work out what the thread title says :)
topoxforddoc
21-10-2013, 20:15
Charlie, many thanks for your valued input. I'm not really a MM man. I can clearly see that we are beginning to see several contenders mainly something from Tron or Allnic.
I have both an MC (Allaerts) and Moving Iron (Decca) on my system. The Decca is quite unlike any other cartridge. I can say that my C4E was the best buy I have made in the last 20 years. I like my Garrott Brothers Gold, but the FFSS Mk IVs are something else.
Anyway, my Allaerts runs through a TRON phono stage on the Meteor preamp - bloody good it is. But the newer Seven phono is in another league even from the onboard TRON Meteor phono. I may get my Meteor upgraded in due course, but that’s a bit down on the shopping list for the time being.
Fine if I cant address you by name I'll not bother addressing you at all and simply ignore you.
Thank you; I'd appreciate that. I notice that you describe yourself as 'off my head'.
Guys, let's leave the bickering there now. Cheers!
Marco.
purite audio
21-10-2013, 21:24
That looks like an interesting design Keith.
Regards Neil
Neil Hi, nice to hear from you, are you well ?
Re Dietmar he used to be GTE Audio, they made 'Toblerone' shaped amps and a dac, Trinity Audio is his new company, he just doesn't enjoy compromise!
KR Keith.
Wakefield Turntables
21-10-2013, 21:41
I have both an MC (Allaerts) and Moving Iron (Decca) on my system. The Decca is quite unlike any other cartridge. I can say that my C4E was the best buy I have made in the last 20 years. I like my Garrott Brothers Gold, but the FFSS Mk IVs are something else.
Anyway, my Allaerts runs through a TRON phono stage on the Meteor preamp - bloody good it is. But the newer Seven phono is in another league even from the onboard TRON Meteor phono. I may get my Meteor upgraded in due course, but that’s a bit down on the shopping list for the time being.
Sounds like you have real synergy going on in your system. I must admit that I've never heard any Tron stuff and it also sounds like your very happy with your kit, it's nice to see that your journey has taken 35 years and that your kit has evolved as time has passed. Bit like my system really some stuff has stayed other bits have been sold. I'm now on the same journey with the phonostage
Guys, let's leave the bickering there now. Cheers!
Marco.
+1
I've never heard the Tron - but I have heard the rest...
edit: not Keith's - which does look very interesting.
Arkless Electronics
22-10-2013, 00:18
I agree with Whest that SUT's are not a good thing (yes , yes, Marco I know you don't agree! :) )
They may well add "nice" colourations.. but personally that's not what I go for or design into anything I make.
If the OP wishes to go for the current state of the art then the Paradise is probably it.
I'm working on a similar phono stage myself at the moment (the Pink Triangle Pip was, to the best of my knowledge, the first to use this technology in anything commercial....) It's not intended to beat the Paradise but to get similar results in a way that is manufacturable in more than "one off's"
Watch this space..
I had a Tron in a while back and whilst I didn't reverse engineer it.. it appears to be a use of the generic "ring of three" type circuit with series RIAA EQ as used by AR from from the SP3 to the SP8, Conrad Johnson and many others.... Check out what happens to a square wave with series feedback EQ if you have simulation software. It can sound very good though!
daytona600
22-10-2013, 01:11
for £10k budget the tron & Allnic are both very good or I,ve been using a Aurorasound Vida myself & save £7000 for records
I agree with Whest that SUT's are not a good thing (yes , yes, Marco I know you don't agree! :) )
They may well add "nice" colourations..
Well, the problem is that there are too many variables to consider for any universal 'best' phonostage to exist, and furthermore, NONE are entirely neutral.
Given that's the case, and true accuracy is not a realistic goal, as others and I have said, what we should strive for instead is achieving sonic synergy between all the relevant components. In that respect, some listeners will achieve that with the use of an SUT, and some without.
The other thing to point out here is that everything in the signal path of audio equipment, to a varying degree, imparts some form of sonic signature (and hence coloration) onto the music signal, and so while in some instances an SUT will add "nice colorations", the same can also be said for any active MC stage, although the colorations will be different.
Therefore, as with any other piece of audio equipment, when choosing a phonostage, all you can do is choose that which exhibits your favourite flavour of coloration - or in other words, the one you like the sound of most :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
22-10-2013, 10:40
Another possible solution to my problem is to improve a phonostage that is already out there. And this is a solution which I'm looking into this is due to the fact that I may not get access to some of the more exotic phonostages available. I'm already looking at phonostage design and seeing what ight be considered "best" practice amongst phonostage desiner to get my headaround the subject. I'm probably going to looking for a four box design, to seperate mono channels with individual psu, probably going to have some valves somehwhee along the design and have lots of power regulation at the various stages. Intrinsic wiring will be pure silver and shielded. Transformer could be something made (probably in silver) or bought just in for the job. RCA and IEC's will be kept to a minimum and hard wiring whenever possible. Hopefully input and output will be fully balanced. BUT hey I'm a novice I'm learning. By taking this dual approach of auditioning what's out there and seeing what's physically possible in design I'm hopefully getting the best of both worlds and something that will work synergistically within my system.
Audioman
22-10-2013, 11:07
I was browsing my copy of Hi-Fi News 2013 year book last night, which contains reviews of 4 high end phono stages - AR LP1, Canor TP306 VR+, Tron 7 Phono GT and the Aurorosound VIDA. All get the 'Highly Commended' stamp of approval though all reviews appear to sit on the fence a bit. The obvious thing to me is the Tron is excessively expensive at 3 times the price of the others. I can't believe world class phono stage should cost more than £3K, taking into account materials and development. Not heard the Aurorasound myself but it does get universal praise from a number of experts who's ears one might trust. I gather it is not valve like but very neutral and clean sounding. Anyway the AR, Canor and Vida will leave £7K for records or other upgrades.
Frankly I'm not surprised James took exception to using an SUT with the Whest which was designed with plenty MC loading options built in. Using SUT with this rather defeats it's point. With respect to Martin who uses this combo I would have thought cash would be saved by combining with a quality simple MM only stage. Of course irrespective of any sonic considerations an SUT is not as universally adaptable in providing the correct loading if you use different cartridges or change frequently. May need to change SUT every time you upgrade your cartridge. Also Synergy is a great thing but may not be such a fuss if the aim is to stick with neutral components through the system and rely largely on speaker choice to arrive at ones prefered presentation.
Paul.
Firebottle
22-10-2013, 11:23
Transformer could be something made (probably in silver) or bought just in for the job.
It's relatively inexpensive to have a toroidal transformer wound to your own spec, you can have whatever windings you need with a bespoke tx.
:cool: Alan
Wakefield Turntables
22-10-2013, 11:32
It's relatively inexpensive to have a toroidal transformer wound to your own spec, you can have whatever windings you need with a bespoke tx.
:cool: Alan
Who do you recommend then?
Firebottle
22-10-2013, 12:35
I've used Tiger Toroids in the past, both my OTLs power transformers came from them. http://www.tigertoroids.co.uk/
Cheers, Alan
Arkless Electronics
22-10-2013, 12:58
If you must use transformers in the signal path then try here: http://www.sowter.co.uk/
Wakefield Turntables
22-10-2013, 13:00
Sowter has been plonked on list as has lundahl.
Ali Tait
22-10-2013, 13:12
Majestic are good too - http://www.transformers.uk.com/
Spectral Morn
22-10-2013, 13:15
Neil Hi, nice to hear from you, are you well ?
Re Dietmar he used to be GTE Audio, they made 'Toblerone' shaped amps and a dac, Trinity Audio is his new company, he just doesn't enjoy compromise!
KR Keith.
Hi Keith
I am not too bad, thank you and you?
Looks like interesting stuff.
Regards Neil
Spectral Morn
22-10-2013, 13:24
Cost no object......
Bolder 2008 phono stage http://www.boulderamp.com/2008-p1.html
Passlabs XP25 https://passlabs.com/products/preamplifiers/xp_phono/xp-25
I am pretty happy with my Balanced Audio Technology VK P10Se http://balanced.com/p-vk-p10se , there's now an upgraded version (mine is still available) with better internal step up transformers and BAT Super Pak capacitors http://balanced.com/p-vk-p10se-superpak.
Regards Neil
purite audio
22-10-2013, 13:25
We are all well thank you, still hoping that there will be UK HIFI scene renaissance!
KR Keith.
Spectral Morn
22-10-2013, 13:37
We are all well thank you, still hoping that there will be UK HIFI scene renaissance!
KR Keith.
That would be nice but holding ones breath might not be wise.
Regards Neil
Spectral Morn
22-10-2013, 13:42
Re transformers, Stephen Billington might be worth talking to he of Music First fame http://www.mfaudio.co.uk/prod_vinyl.htm and Stevens and Billington http://www.stevens-billington.co.uk/.
Regards Neil
Gordon Steadman
22-10-2013, 14:36
I have absolutely no idea.
As I have only listened to probably a maximum of a dozen phono amps over the years, including those in integrated or preamps, I have no idea what is out there so would have to do the tour after the big win.
Of the ones I have heard, the Creek and Firebottle are the best with the Firebottle winning by a fair bit. I use the Creek every day and whilst I clearly know there is better out there, find it a very satisfying listen.
topoxforddoc
22-10-2013, 14:52
The basic TRON Seven starts at just over £3k. There are 3 variants of the standard one chassis Seven. My Seven Reference was £4.5k. The GT version is two chassis with a separate PSU.
Charlie
Hi Paul,
I largely agree with what you have written, however, just to address a couple of points:
Not heard the Aurorasound myself but it does get universal praise from a number of experts who's ears one might trust. I gather it is not valve like but very neutral and clean sounding.
The two are not mutally exclusive, you know!! ;)
"Neutral and clean sounding" are certainly traits (amongst others) I would attribute to all of my valve equipment, including the MM phono stage in the Croft. The fact is, I wouldn't settle for anything else, as I didn't get into tubes because I like to wallow in euphonic coloration or for any reasons relating to nostalgia. I did so because when properly implemented, to my ears, they're the most faithful music-makers.
I've made a promise to myself, before I pop my clogs, that I will have rid the uninitiated of the fallacy that audio equipment, which features the use of valves (or transformers), is automatically 'rose-tinted or euphonic sounding'................ :trust:
Quite simply, and I hope this will penetrate into the heads of the masses: there is no reason whatsoever why valve equipment (and/or SUTs), if properly designed and correctly implemented, cannot sound as "neutral and clean sounding" as anything containing transistors. It will also exhibit other traits, relevant to accurate music reproduction, that are equally as enviable.
Frankly I'm not surprised James took exception to using an SUT with the Whest which was designed with plenty MC loading options built in. Using SUT with this rather defeats it's point. With respect to Martin who uses this combo I would have thought cash would be saved by combining with a quality simple MM only stage.
The fact that the Whest contains plenty of loading options does not negate the use of a high-quality SUT.
I've been to Martin's house and heard his system numerous times, and more importantly I was there (along with others) when he was comparing the sound of his T/T, through the Whest, with and without his Choir Audio SUT - and everyone who was there agreed that the SUT improved the sound by a very large margin (I can go into detail about the nature of the sonic gains if you wish).
Put it this way, the overall improvement wasn't subtle - and it had *nothing* to do with introducing any 'pleasing colorations'. The musical presentation was simply, all-round, no-brainer better! :)
Marco.
He's not running a SUT in to a MC input though, is he?
GT has apparently built a four box Tron for himself - silver transformers etc - I doubt it is under 10K though (looking at the rest of his pricing)
He's not running a SUT in to a MC input though, is he?
Nope, but downgrading to a 'simpler' (less expensive) MM phono stage, as Paul had suggested, would result in a marked deterioration in sound quality. One of the reasons why Martin, for example, uses the Whest is because it is intrinsically a good phono stage, whether one uses the MM or MC input.
The fact that the MC stage can be improved (using his Shelter 5000 cartridge), with a Choir Audio SUT, does not discredit the quality of the rest of the phono stage - indeed it is fundamental to achieving the results that Martin enjoys listening to! :)
Marco.
Hmm..
The MM stage is most likely the same circuit the MC uses but with a preliminary stage of amplification switched out.
I'm not convinced that a SUT offers any intrinsic benefit. I'm sure they can work well but I think alternative solutions can work just as well. The traditional advantage of using SUTs is for use with valve stages where it is more difficult to make very quiet MC stages.
Majestic are good too - http://www.transformers.uk.com/
I would concur Ali, in and with regard to Mains and Chokes , sold performers , however for my part I have found that Majestic Output transformers have tended toward something of an average performance standard , sonically speaking , than a number of other manufacturers I have used , altho pretty good value pricewise .
Hmm..
The MM stage is most likely the same circuit the MC uses but with a preliminary stage of amplification switched out.
Indeed. That's the point I'm making. The basic MM/MC circuit is very good - but regardless of that, the former (used in conjunction with a quality SUT), outperforms the latter, used direct.
I'm not convinced that a SUT offers any intrinsic benefit. I'm sure they can work well but I think alternative solutions can work just as well. The traditional advantage of using SUTs is for use with valve stages where it is more difficult to make very quiet MC stages.
Well, Mark, you're entitled to your opinion. However, you weren't there to hear the significant improvement in Martin's system gained by using his SUT, through his Whest phono stage - and I have had similar experiences using other SUTs with different solid-state phono stages.
If Simon designs a MM/MC switchable version of the Paradise, I'll bring some SUTs along, and we can have a bake-off and compare the results :)
Marco.
sq225917
22-10-2013, 18:14
Marco, the Paradise isn't my design, I just put em together. The high overall gain and MC input stage topology is intrinsic to the basic design, you can't just put a low gain stage in there and expect it give similar performance.
I'll be interested to hear what Jez can do with thematically similar circuit building blocks but design it to use IC's instead of all discrete transistors.
Ali Tait
22-10-2013, 18:21
I would concur Ali, in and with regard to Mains and Chokes , sold performers , however for my part I have found that Majestic Output transformers have tended toward something of an average performance standard , sonically speaking , than a number of other manufacturers I have used , altho pretty good value pricewise .
Interesting. What have you found that's better?
topoxforddoc
22-10-2013, 18:36
He's not running a SUT in to a MC input though, is he?
GT has apparently built a four box Tron for himself - silver transformers etc - I doubt it is under 10K though (looking at the rest of his pricing)
The TRON gear is expensive - no doubt about that. But I think you have to compare GT’s amplifiers with the like of Kondo-san. Sonically they are in that league, but they are considerably cheaper than Kondo. The build quality is superb - no outsourcing to anyone else - all bespoke and built to order. Hence my Seven Reference built to suit my Decca C4E. The OP has asked what phono you would buy with a large budget. Well I have just done that and I am very pleased. Thomas Woschnick (TW Acustic) and Ralph Cessaro (Cessaro speakers) have paid cash for their own TRON amplifiers for their personal systems. Their joint room was voted one of the best at RMAF this year (as it is every year).
Marco, the Paradise isn't my design, I just put em together. The high overall gain and MC input stage topology is intrinsic to the basic design, you can't just put a low gain stage in there and expect it give similar performance.
Ah, no problem, Simon. Noted.
The point I was making was that the only way Mark would be able to judge this properly:
I'm not convinced that a SUT offers any intrinsic benefit. I'm sure they can work well but I think alternative solutions can work just as well.
...would be to listen to some SUTs in the context of a familiar system (and phono stage), hence why I suggested what I did :)
Marco.
You may try my Kora 3T MC Limited Edition with a battery power. It will be a near perfect match for the cartridge you use for about 1/10 of your maximum budget.
Cheers
Alex
Hi Alex, I took some time to read about your designs for Creek, indeed they are putting your name in italics on the current Creek website. Hope you contribute some more to this forum and would be interested in any MM stages you design or build.
Well, Mark, you're entitled to your opinion. However, you weren't there to hear the significant improvement in Martin's system gained by using his SUT, through his Whest phono stage - and I have had similar experiences using other SUTs with different solid-state phono stages.
Well that is your experience of trying SUTs - but my experience does not parallel yours (in this and many other aspects of audio reproduction it seems). You present the use of a SUT as some kind of 'magic bullet' that will raise the performance of any phono stage - however, that is neither my experience, nor my opinion - I don't decry the use of a SUT though and nor do I promote transistors as inherently better in any way.
As Simon says, the Paradise is not a MM phono with some extra gain tacked on to it and it is inherently structured to be a MC stage.
Audioman
22-10-2013, 18:55
Nope, but downgrading to a 'simpler' (less expensive) MM phono stage, as Paul had suggested, would result in a marked deterioration in sound quality. One of the reasons why Martin, for example, uses the Whest is because it is intrinsically a good phono stage, whether one uses the MM or MC input.
The fact that the MC stage can be improved (using his Shelter 5000 cartridge), with a Choir Audio SUT, does not discredit the quality of the rest of the phono stage - indeed it is fundamental to achieving the results that Martin enjoys listening to! :)
Marco.
Marco. The likely hood is that a high quality alternative dedicated MM stage would sound even better. I don't see how you can entirely separate the MM circuitry from the extra components required to give extra gain and loading for MC. It does sound that the Whest is lacking in certain areas of presentation that you and Martin value. That would suggest you have found an SUT that improves on it's sound rather than point to the universal superiority of SUT's. If Martin was going the SUT route from the start would he have purchased a Whest and payed for superfluous MC amplification?
As far as my comments about valves in relation to the Viva are concerned I was referring to the general perception and the more common case were valves are chosen to add a little warmth and colour. This is what some buyers and reviewers appear to prefer. This balance will be regarded as neutral by some people as well as enable them to listen to vinyl that may be less than pristine. Something that may be a downside with the Vida if the review in Hi-Fi news is accurate. So absolute neutrality and resolving power is not necessarily for everyone.
Paul.
Oldpinkman
22-10-2013, 18:57
It's no good. The grape juice has got the better of me, and I'm posting on this thread when I promised myself I wouldn't
I have no particular point to make, except that I know a really lovely amp, I am really fond of, and quite a few people who've heard it rather like, whose MC facility is essentially an extra gain stage added to its MM stage. Granted the header arrangement also allows appropriate loadings to be set, but in essence it is another gain stage added. And its really rather good. That's me done - as you were :cool:
You present the use of a SUT as some kind of 'magic bullet' that will raise the performance of any phono stage.
Mark, we appear to be having a small communication problem. That's NOT what I'm saying at all.
All I'm saying is that, contrary to popular belief, using an SUT and/or a valve phono stage, when both are well-designed and properly implemented, does not automatically result in any less 'accurate' or 'neutral' results than one would obtain with an active MC phonostage alone.
I simply want to rid people of the perception that the reason those of us who use SUTs do so is because we're deliberately trying to add euphonic coloration, as nothing could be further from the truth! *That* is the point I'm making - not that an SUT is any way a 'magic bullet' :)
Incidentally, may I ask which SUTs you've heard and in what context?
Marco.
P.S. Paul, I'll get to your post after the football :cool:
Interesting. What have you found that's better?
Various Ali , Hashimoto double C core's , Partridge 4K series /CFBT's , Tamura , Tango , Tribute Amorphous , Audio Note Double C cores , McIntosh Bi-Filar, most if not all more expensive than Majestick which as I have said do represent good value .
I have spent some time evaluating a number of custom wound OPT's , Stabtran , Gain , my own ! Majestick amongst them .
Ali Tait
22-10-2013, 21:23
Ah, you wind your own?
Looks like you've had some expensive iron through your hands.
Hi Paul,
The likely hood is that a high quality alternative dedicated MM stage would sound even better.
Sure - I have little doubt about that. However, it's also possible that said alternative dedicated MM stage (used in conjunction with a quality SUT) could outperform a similar alternative dedicated MC stage... ;)
It does sound that the Whest is lacking in certain areas of presentation that you and Martin value.
Not forgetting Hugo (Shuggie) and Mike (mikemusic) who also arrived at the same conclusion after having heard said demonstration. If I were a betting man, I'd say that had you plucked 100 members at random from this forum, who use a T/T, and subjected them to the same demonstration, the vast majority would've have arrived at the same opinion, such was the 'no brainer' fundamental sonic (and musical) improvement with the SUT.
As an aside, I'd say that the combination of Martin's T/T (with his Shelter cartridge and DV tonearm), together with his Whest phono stage and SUT, produces unquestionably one of the finest sounds I've ever heard from vinyl - and in some ways betters my own set-up.
That would suggest you have found an SUT that improves on it's sound rather than point to the universal superiority of SUT's.
No-one is saying that there is a universal superiority of SUTs, but rather that they can be a valid option with the right cartridge in the right system, and that if done properly, they do not adversely colour the audio signal any more than can happen with some active MC stages.
If Martin was going the SUT route from the start would he have purchased a Whest and payed for superfluous MC amplification?
Of course not. The fact is, Martin only became a convert to the benefits of SUTs when he heard the results for himself. Had he known what he does now, I'm quite certain he'd have gone instead for the highest quality dedicated MM stage he could afford, and then simply added a suitable SUT.
As far as my comments about valves in relation to the Viva are concerned I was referring to the general perception and the more common case were valves are chosen to add a little warmth and colour. This is what some buyers and reviewers appear to prefer. This balance will be regarded as neutral by some people as well as enable them to listen to vinyl that may be less than pristine.
Well, first of all, I would only consider the addition of a little warmth and colour as being 'neutral' in the context of comparing that effect with something else which had stripped those elements away, as indeed I hear often with much of today's audio equipment that has been voiced to sound 'clear and clean', but in reality is anything but truly neutral. It's simply a false effect, designed superficially to impress.
Secondly, there's no doubt that some people will use certain types of valve equipment because they prefer the 'warm sound' it gives. However, as I've said before, that's most definitely not why I use valve equipment, which is not coloured sounding in that way. I do it for precisely the opposite reasons: because experience tells me that it produces results that sound more believable and lifelike.
Essentially then, I use valves and SUTs, because for me, when done well, they achieve the greatest fidelity when reproducing recorded music; not as devices to add 'niceness'. Simples! :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
22-10-2013, 23:41
100% agree with all of that.
Well that is your experience of trying SUTs - but my experience does not parallel yours (in this and many other aspects of audio reproduction it seems). You present the use of a SUT as some kind of 'magic bullet' that will raise the performance of any phono stage - however, that is neither my experience, nor my opinion - I don't decry the use of a SUT though and nor do I promote transistors as inherently better in any way.
As Simon says, the Paradise is not a MM phono with some extra gain tacked on to it and it is inherently structured to be a MC stage.
Arkless Electronics
22-10-2013, 23:44
Marco, the Paradise isn't my design, I just put em together. The high overall gain and MC input stage topology is intrinsic to the basic design, you can't just put a low gain stage in there and expect it give similar performance.
I'll be interested to hear what Jez can do with thematically similar circuit building blocks but design it to use IC's instead of all discrete transistors.
Si, what I'm working on is to replace all the "housekeeping" and biasing circuitry with op-amps.. the signal path will still be all discrete!
sq225917
22-10-2013, 23:49
Marco I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that a SUT can sound nice when partnered with a good MM stage, or in some instances even sound better than the MC stage in the same box as the MM stage. But that's more to do with their being some poor MC stages, that are little more than an afterthought tacked onto a MM stage than it is the inherent superiority of SUT's over solid state gain stage alternatives. Like everything in hifi, it's down to implementation, the trick in making an assesment is not to assign a belief to a variable that might not be the one making the difference.
Arkless Electronics
23-10-2013, 00:59
Marco I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that a SUT can sound nice when partnered with a good MM stage, or in some instances even sound better than the MC stage in the same box as the MM stage. But that's more to do with their being some poor MC stages, that are little more than an afterthought tacked onto a MM stage than it is the inherent superiority of SUT's over solid state gain stage alternatives. Like everything in hifi, it's down to implementation, the trick in making an assesment is not to assign a belief to a variable that might not be the one making the difference.
+1 on that as well!
As far as valves go well I've nothing against them.... Topology is the most important aspect of any amplifier though and it's far easier to evolve the most refined topology when you are not limiting yourself to one particular device. The complete absence of a "PNP" complement in valves is probably their biggest limitation.
In phono stages in particular, and more specifically MC phono stages, noise and microphonics are a big problem. It can also be difficult (but certainly not impossible) to ensure that the RIAA eq remains accurate as valves wear and lose emission ;)
A couple of years ago a friend brought an experimental valve phono stage to a bake-off. It was used with a SUT (though this isn't directly relevant) and a number of recordings were made using it. When we later listened to the recordings we found the stage was so microphonic you could clearly hear people in the room talking laid over the music!
The OP ha postulated the idea that he may just use an existing design and 'improve' it with silver wired transformers, silver internal cable etc. Whilst this may well add a little to the icing of the cake, it won't alter the basic recipie...
Oldpinkman
23-10-2013, 05:19
Never tried a sut. Since my first mc cartridge I have had a fine mc stage available. Having recently tried a valve head amp I CAN AGREE WITH MARCO. The use of valves does not result in an artificial warming of the sound.
And I can agree with jez and simon. Its not a magic bullet for sounding better than sand either. And in this particular case the constraints of valve noise impacted on design choices.
MikeMusic
23-10-2013, 07:29
I want my system (and life !) as simple as possible. There are already too many boxes and too much technology
An extra box is the last thing I want to I fought against the idea of a SUT for some months even after I had heard one - was there any way I could achieve the sound I heard without yet another damned box ?
No.
Compared the Whest with and without a SUT
The system is just better with a SUT
Now the system has been further upgraded I imagine the difference will be far greater
Marco I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that a SUT can sound nice when partnered with a good MM stage, or in some instances even sound better than the MC stage in the same box as the MM stage. But that's more to do with their being some poor MC stages, that are little more than an afterthought tacked onto a MM stage than it is the inherent superiority of SUT's over solid state gain stage alternatives.
Taking the last (highlighted in blue) point first, the message still doesn't seem to be getting through... As I've said before, I'm not claiming any inherent superiority of SUTs over solid-state gain stage alternatives; merely that in my experience to date I have found the former approach to offer superior results.
Therefore, it is simply my opinion, based on extensive listening experience, not fact. Furthermore, as I said earlier, I wanted to refute the idea that the only reason anyone would use an SUT and/or valve phonostage was because they were seeking to add 'niceness' (euphonic coloration), as that is patent nonsense.
Taking your first point, raised in your opening paragraph, it's not about "nice" at all; it's about what is considered as most resembling a faithful rendition of the music contained on a record, which those of us who use SUTs feel is limited by most active MC stages. That is why others and I use a high-quality SUT, designed to optimise the performance of our chosen MC cartridge, and that also marries sonically with the partnering phono stage.
Furthermore, the use of an SUT, in the context I'm referring to, has nothing whatsoever to do with "poor MC stages, that are little more than an afterthought tacked onto a MM stage". The Whest PS30R in question is most certainly not a poor MC stage (nor is it cheap), and neither are other similarly priced solid-state MC/MM stages I've heard, poor, where the MC section of the design has been outperformed by the MM section, used in conjunction with a high-quality SUT.
Quite simply, when you hit upon the right 'recipe' (combination of MC cartridge/SUT/MM phonostage, valve or SS) the results are truly magical!!
The problem we have here is that (along with Jez and Mark) you don't rate SUTs, and so find it hard to accept others and my findings, eulogising about them, as its contrary to what you consider as being 'good design' and/or 'accurate sound'. It's ok, I can live with that, as it's an entirely natural reaction :)
Like everything in hifi, it's down to implementation, the trick in making an assesment is not to assign a belief to a variable that might not be the one making the difference.
Now *that* I completely agree with - indeed I haven't said any differently on this thread.
Marco.
I want my system (and life !) as simple as possible. There are already too many boxes and too much technology
An extra box is the last thing I want to I fought against the idea of a SUT for some months even after I had heard one - was there any way I could achieve the sound I heard without yet another damned box ?
No.
Compared the Whest with and without a SUT
The system is just better with a SUT
Indeed, Mike. The problem is that the disbelievers won't accept our opinion (or entertain altering theirs) until they've heard same results with the use of an SUT, as you and I have.
Marco.
sq225917
23-10-2013, 07:53
Marco I have no feelings for or against SUTs, having only heard two silver and two copper Kondo ones I wouldn't dare to presume to know what they sound like in the wider scheme of things. I have no dog in this fight at all and I'm keen to hear more of what they can achieve.
That's fine, Simon. All I'm doing is defending my opinion and putting a valid case forward for SUTs, when used appropriately in the right circumstances.
Like Mark said earlier, they are no more a 'magic bullet' than anything else in audio, but in the right context, they unquestionably have their benefits :)
Marco.
Hi Mark,
A couple of years ago a friend brought an experimental valve phono stage to a bake-off. It was used with a SUT (though this isn't directly relevant) and a number of recordings were made using it. When we later listened to the recordings we found the stage was so microphonic you could clearly hear people in the room talking laid over the music!
Quite clearly then the unit was faulty, as that is not the normal behaviour of a properly designed MM valve phono stage or SUT. If that were the case, I wouldn't be using them.
Also, I presume that you have had other experiences of MM valve phono stages and SUTs, and aren't allowing that solitary (unfortunate) experience with the faulty/badly designed/mismatched units you heard to artificially cloud your opinion?
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
23-10-2013, 08:28
I'm gone for 24 hours and look what's happened. I think the reason why some phonostage developers don't use a sut or can't see the relevancy of one is quite simple. Some developers use a JFET to magnify the number of mV that a mc cartridge pushes into first stage of a phonostage into something a bit more beefy that the rest of the phonostage can work with this amplifies input signal from the cartridge and also reduces noise (please correct if I'm wrong I'm still learning). So why would you need a sut, which does the same job and introduces a whole stack of links into the chains, more RCAs, more cabling, etc ect. I can see the argument for and against. I've been using a sut for ages and can hand on heart claim that the records play silently and demonstrate a greater amount of details.
MikeMusic
23-10-2013, 08:29
Indeed, Mike. The problem is that the disbelievers won't accept our opinion (or entertain altering theirs) until they've heard same results with the use of an SUT, as you and I have.
Marco.
The over riding factor for me is sound quality.
Having all that kit, racking, cabling, monster mains regenerator is a PITA but nothing compared to the sheer unadulterated, pleasure of hearing all that music as it was made.
When I first heard Martin's system as was some years ago I was blown away.
Then the rotten swine upgraded and I had to have that sound quality in my own system.
Specs are specs.
Opinions are opinions
When I hear superb sound quality I want it
In phono stages in particular, and more specifically MC phono stages, noise and microphonics are a big problem.
I quite agree, which is why I would probably not touch a valve MC stage with a bargepole. However, that situation is unlikely to arise as there are enough high-quality (quiet) valve MM stages about, and SUTs, to keep those of happy who prefer that approach for our vinyl listening :cool:
Marco.
chris@panteg
23-10-2013, 08:53
Hi Mark,
Quite clearly then the unit was faulty, as that is not the normal behaviour of a properly designed MM valve phono stage or SUT. If that were the case, I wouldn't be using them.
Also, I presume that you have other experiences of MM valve phono stages and SUTs and aren't allowing that solitary unfort
unate experience with the faulty/badly designed/mismatched units you heard to artificially cloud your opinion?
Marco.
Not so sure Marco , I had the same problem with an Audio Innovations 1000 SUT I borrowed a while back , it hummed and hideously microphonic alas .
The over riding factor for me is sound quality.
Having all that kit, racking, cabling, monster mains regenerator is a PITA but nothing compared to the sheer unadulterated, pleasure of hearing all that music as it was made.
When I first heard Martin's system as was some years ago I was blown away.
Then the rotten swine upgraded and I had to have that sound quality in my own system.
Specs are specs.
Opinions are opinions
When I hear superb sound quality I want it
Ditto (with bells on)!!
I also couldn't give a toss how much 'paraphernalia' is needed to obtain the sound that I want. Of course, I would rather simplify things wherever possible (my purist sensibilities demand so), but if another box is needed to gain what I consider to be a more lifelike sound from music reproduced on my system, then so be it.
However, don't forget that in the case of MC step-up transformers, hard-wired internally to the same (point-to-point wired) circuit as a valve MM phonostage, thus removing the need for another box and associated cables, you're actually simplifying the signal path, compared with it running through all the necessary active components (caps, resistors, etc) needed inside your average soild-state MC stage, for it to work! ;)
I intend to liberate the transformers from my Ortofon ST-80SE and have the above done inside the valve MM phonostage of my Croft preamp. It will result in one of the most simple and direct signal paths possible, and consequently I'm sure will produce a significant sonic upgrade. Watch this space for a full write-up when the work has been carried out! :)
Marco.
Not so sure Marco , I had the same problem with an Audio Innovations 1000 SUT I borrowed a while back , it hummed and hideously microphonic alas .
Hi Chris,
No doubt these things happen. However, the point is the problem is not intrinsic to all SUTs. Often what you describe is due to earthing issues. My ST-80SE, and also my valve mm phono stage, are totally silent (within the boundaries of my hearing acuity).
Marco.
MikeMusic
23-10-2013, 09:12
Not so sure Marco , I had the same problem with an Audio Innovations 1000 SUT I borrowed a while back , it hummed and hideously microphonic alas .
Oh yes. Me too to start with
Changing earthing route fixed that
MikeMusic
23-10-2013, 09:14
However, don't forget that in the case of MC step-up transformers, hard-wired internally to the same (point-to-point wired) circuit as a valve MM phonostage, thus removing the need for another box and associated cables, you're actually simplifying the signal path, compared with it running through all the necessary active components (caps, resistors, etc) needed inside your average soild-state MC stage, for it to work! ;)
I intend to liberate the transformers from my Ortofon ST-80SE and have the above done inside the valve MM phonostage of my Croft preamp. It will result in one of the most simple and direct signal paths possible, and consequently I'm sure will produce a significant sonic upgrade. Watch this space for a full write-up when the work has been carried out! :)
Marco.
Ah. I tend to think in terms of the boxes.
Be very interested to hear how much work there is in that and how much gain - pun intended !
Lol - don't worry, as soon as Anthony has wielded his soldering iron with the usual skill and deftness of touch, I'll be reporting the results! :trust:
The 'box'/casing of any SUT device is of course almost entirely for practical/cosmetic reasons, and the connecting cables a necessary evil, unless of course one adopts a hard-wired approach... ;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
23-10-2013, 10:06
Hi Chris,
No doubt these things happen. However, the point is the problem is not intrinsic to all SUTs. Often what you describe is due to earthing issues. My ST-80SE, and also my valve mm phono stage, are totally silent (within the boundaries of my hearing acuity).
Marco.
Yes well it hasn't put me off you see , I'm thinking of giving the Rothwell a go , my cunning plan is to try it with the phono stage in my Pearl Lite ,which is pretty decent and if it works ? lose the Trichord Diablo , great phono stage that it is but I want to simplify and downgrade my system , with the money left over , invest in the matching Pearl Lite SACD player .
Nice one, Chris. I hope it all works out :)
The Rothwell site contains an excellent section on the electrical (not sonic) advantages of a quality SUT, see here: http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/mc_step-up_transformers_explai.html
Some of the facts outlined there are often not considered by your average hi-fi enthusiast, who simply sees an SUT as another unnecessary box or 'unwanted gubbins' (and an active MC stage, which superficially seems a simpler solution, is thus bound to be better), when that is not quite the case at all.
Marco.
Nice one, Chris. I hope it all works out :)
The Rothwell site contains an excellent section on the electrical (not sonic) advantages of a quality SUT, see here: http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/mc_step-up_transformers_explai.html
As I found out though getting the electrical performance right along with correct loading of the cartridge independent of the SUT loading does result in improved sonics. ;)
The problem we have here is that (along with Jez and Mark) you don't rate SUTs, and so find it hard to accept others and my findings, eulogising about them, as its contrary to what you consider as being 'good design' and/or 'accurate sound'. It's ok, I can live with that, as it's an entirely natural reaction :)
Marco.
I can't speak for Simon or Jez, but for my own part I have no problem with SUT's at all and would happily use such a combination if I had found it to be superior. I certainly didn't choose my current phono stage because of any prejudice relating to alternative technologies, it was entirely (and somewhat grudgingly) based on its subjective performance (how it sounded in other words). I didn't really want to change my phono stage, but the performance was so clearly superior to anything I had previously experienced I just had to have it!
Arkless Electronics
23-10-2013, 11:11
Any interest out there in a high quality head amp?
Point to point wired with no pcb, basic case and wall wart power supply (more than adequate)......
The Rothwell site contains an excellent section on the electrical (not sonic) advantages of a quality SUT, see here: http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/mc_step-up_transformers_explai.html
Marco.
Yes, it is an interesting read. However, it doesn't just outline the benefits, it also explains the potential pitfalls. There is plenty of opportunity or the implementation of a SUT to be compromised. By the same token, there are many reasons why a transistor based solution may not be optimum either. Many transistor stages do follow a generic structure, in that gain is immediately added to the signal as it enters (the idea is that the signal is rendered more robust and provides the opportunity for this to be 'switched out' for MM use) - but this topology is not the only way to create a transistor based stage.
Wakefield Turntables
23-10-2013, 12:05
Yes, it is an interesting read. However, it doesn't just outline the benefits, it also explains the potential pitfalls. There is plenty of opportunity or the implementation of a SUT to be compromised. By the same token, there are many reasons why a transistor based solution may not be optimum either. Many transistor stages do follow a generic structure, in that gain is immediately added to the signal as it enters (the idea is that the signal is rendered more robust and provides the opportunity for this to be 'switched out' for MM use) - but this topology is not the only way to create a transistor based stage.
Care to expand?
I thought I'd chuck in my experience into the debate. The same as Mark I have no particular allegiance.
I've used S&B TX-103 into valve MM phono stages as well as SS stages set for MM. I've also used the Hagerman Piccolo which is a SS MC stepup stage.
The Hagerman was a little more detailed, the TX-103 just a little warmer, it wasn't a significant difference but it's noticeable.
I'd like to make a point about SS phono stages. There are two ways (at least) to implement them. They can be an MM stgae with an MC gain stage switched in as needed (akin to my Hagerman + MM phono) or they can be an MC stage with gain that can be reduced such that MM levels are achieved. I'd expect the designs with the extra gain stage to be not so optimal but you never can tell.
PaulStewart
23-10-2013, 12:59
Back in the late seventies when JVC were about to launch our first MCs onto the market, one of the senior audio engineers and I had a play around with various types of step up device. We tried everything from a gain stage using a single BC109c to many highly elaborate designs. In the end we felt that AT EVERY POINT those designs using transformers sounded best.
At that point in time, you could still get Hi Fi amps with ceramic phono inputs, which of course needed less gain than MM, so out of curiosity we made a MM to ceramic matching transformer and the result was way better than the MM input in the same amp. Our conclusion was that it was the improved MATCHING brought about by the transformers, that benefitted the sound. I have also found this to be true with mic preamps as well.
Cheers all
Paul S
Arkless Electronics
23-10-2013, 13:10
I thought I'd chuck in my experience into the debate. The same as Mark I have no particular allegiance.
I've used S&B TX-103 into valve MM phono stages as well as SS stages set for MM. I've also used the Hagerman Piccolo which is a SS MC stepup stage.
The Hagerman was a little more detailed, the TX-103 just a little warmer, it wasn't a significant difference but it's noticeable.
I'd like to make a point about SS phono stages. There are two ways (at least) to implement them. They can be an MM stgae with an MC gain stage switched in as needed (akin to my Hagerman + MM phono) or they can be an MC stage with gain that can be reduced such that MM levels are achieved. I'd expect the designs with the extra gain stage to be not so optimal but you never can tell.
The optimum is usually to have a MC stage which is designed only for MC cartridges. This is certainly not a universal truth of course (the Arkless 640P manages it with very little compromise to either for example, and it is not the only one) but in many topologies either MM or MC will be compromised by having the gain switchable. This is most often due to the need to add electrolytic capacitors into the feedback path in order to allow the DC conditions of the stages biasing to remain satisfactory and/or the changing feedback impedance putting a less than ideal load on the stage driving the feedback network.... other factors can also come into play.
Arkless Electronics
23-10-2013, 13:14
My experience has been exactly the opposite! It is not as easy as it looks to make a really good MC stage or head amp though and a good SUT would certainly beat a poor active step up.
Back in the late seventies when JVC were about to launch our first MCs onto the market, one of the senior audio engineers and I had a play around with various types of step up device. We tried everything from a gain stage using a single BC109c to many highly elaborate designs. In the end we felt that AT EVERY POINT those designs using transformers sounded best.
At that point in time, you could still get Hi Fi amps with ceramic phono inputs, which of course needed less gain than MM, so out of curiosity we made a MM to ceramic matching transformer and the result was way better than the MM input in the same amp. Our conclusion was that it was the improved MATCHING brought about by the transformers, that benefitted the sound. I have also found this to be true with mic preamps as well.
Cheers all
Paul S
PaulStewart
23-10-2013, 14:36
Jez, you miss my point, I'll try again. "IT WAS THE IMPROVED MATCHING" it's the improved matching that wa important and that can be done in a number of ways, transformers both in domestic and pro audio, can in my opinion be the best, not as a way of raising or lowering gain necsessairily, but of matching electrically and of course this generally improves SQ.
Arkless Electronics
23-10-2013, 14:56
Jez, you miss my point, I'll try again. "IT WAS THE IMPROVED MATCHING" it's the improved matching that wa important and that can be done in a number of ways, transformers both in domestic and pro audio, can in my opinion be the best, not as a way of raising or lowering gain necsessairily, but of matching electrically and of course this generally improves SQ.
I'm not missing your point at all as your point is largely incorrect....
It doesn't necessarily improve the matching and can often make it much worse if you don't have the equipment and knowledge to make sure of a correct match.
Not that having "good matching" is necessarily important in the context of MC cartridges. It is more important to the SUT than to the cartridge and this is to avoid ringing and FR anomalies from the SUT itself.
I never use transformers in the audio path in either hifi or pro equipment and never would. In pro equipment it is widely acknowledged that the transformers cause colouration, that's why they are often used! It's considered a part of the artistic process to use certain equipment to impart a particular sound that the artist, producer or engineer is looking for. This is not something to be encouraged in the reply chain!
PaulStewart
23-10-2013, 15:40
Gee Jez,
I wish I knew everything like you.... I'm outta here, this used to be a great forum, but these days :(
See ya all
I'm not missing your point at all as your point is largely incorrect....
It doesn't necessarily improve the matching and can often make it much worse if you don't have the equipment and knowledge to make sure of a correct match.
Not that having "good matching" is necessarily important in the context of MC cartridges. It is more important to the SUT than to the cartridge and this is to avoid ringing and FR anomalies from the SUT itself.
Yes, agree with this, this point is made in the Rothwell article and is also what I found with my experiments.
Paul, no need storm off, Jez has a valid point, however, the use of well designed transformers like the Sowters will give an extended flat Freq response with the minimum ringing.
Arkless Electronics
23-10-2013, 16:08
Gee Jez,
I wish I knew everything like you.... I'm outta here, this used to be a great forum, but these days :(
See ya all
Very sorry for being a professional electronic design engineer with a life time of experience..... Apparently everyone on here who's fitted a few plugs and read a couple of issues of "hifi world" and the preface to "electronics for dummies" knows as much as I do though and I'm an arrogant arse for thinking otherwise....
Gee all those companies that employed me in capacities such as chief engineer and research and development engineer could have got someone cheaper by picking them at random from the members of any hifi forum.... I don't know why I bother at times.... and if Paul is an EE himself he should know better than posting stuff which is simply technologically incorrect. Bye Paul
PaulStewart
23-10-2013, 16:09
Yes, agree with this, this point is made in the Rothwell article and is also what I found with my experiments.
Paul, no need storm off, Jez has a valid point, however, the use of well designed transformers like the Sowters will give an extended flat Freq response with the minimum ringing.
Yes and that's why people have been using uncoloured transformer circuits for years, 'cos they do a good job easily and well. I just don't like the no one else's opinion or experience is valid approach to discussions.
Arkless Electronics
23-10-2013, 16:26
The best transformers used in the right way can give good results with fairly little colouration.... but in my opinion not as good as the best active circuitry and certainly not as low in colouration. Try going on some of the pro forums and see how they are mainly used in pro gear to deliberately impart a particular sound and how certain makes and models of mic transformer, mixing desk output transformers etc etc are sought after and revered for giving "that 50's sound" or "that Neve desk sound" etc
I never use transformers in the audio path in either hifi or pro equipment and never would. In pro equipment it is widely acknowledged that the transformers cause colouration, that's why they are often used! It's considered a part of the artistic process to use certain equipment to impart a particular sound that the artist, producer or engineer is looking for. This is not something to be encouraged in the reply chain!
But, EVERYTHING in the replay chain is coloured to some degree, so why single out the coloration of transformers for special attention? I simply couldn't live with the coloration/distortion characteristics exhibited by 90% of the solid-state equipment I've heard, but I realise that for some people it is preferable to that created by valves and/or transformers.
At the end of the day, no audio equipment is entirely accurate, so the best we can do is chose which equipment is the least compromised to our ears - and that's a FACT, not an opinion.
Jez, I like you and consider your knowledge and experience as an EE to be of value to the forum, but you can come across sometimes as rather arrogant and dogmatic ('I know best' because I'm an engineer, etc - something we never hear from Anthony TD or Nick Gorham, for example, who are rather more humble characters, although equally as knowledgeable as you), and so your attitude is becoming a problem, especially when other valued members, such as Paul, threaten to leave.
Therefore, if you are to remain here, I must ask you to curb this 'know it all' aspect of your contributions, which quite clearly, given the feedback I've had not just from Paul, is unacceptable and counterproductive to the harmony and chilled vibe we're used to here on AoS. I'm sorry, but I have to consider the feelings of all of our members, not just yours.
Marco.
Firebottle
23-10-2013, 17:19
Very sorry for being a professional electronic design engineer with a life time of experience.....
Don't be.... :)
:cool: Alan
Hi Mark,
Yes, it is an interesting read. However, it doesn't just outline the benefits, it also explains the potential pitfalls. There is plenty of opportunity or the implementation of a SUT to be compromised. By the same token, there are many reasons why a transistor based solution may not be optimum either. Many transistor stages do follow a generic structure, in that gain is immediately added to the signal as it enters (the idea is that the signal is rendered more robust and provides the opportunity for this to be 'switched out' for MM use) - but this topology is not the only way to create a transistor based stage.
I agree 100% with all of that. Without wishing to continually repeat myself, the undisputable fact is that ALL audio equipment is compromised in some way or another, so all we can realistically do is choose our compromises.
However, what I will always rally against is the misguided notion commonly portrayed as fact (usually by those with a commercial agenda) that valves and/or transformers are simply 'effects devices' and have no place in 'proper hi-fi', as it is total and utter blinkered bollocks.
Anyway, in reference to the Rothwell article, this bit mirrors my findings and succinctly defines why I consider the use of transformers as being the most satisfying and faithful way of reproducing music on vinyl:
The harmonic distortion in transformers is greatest at the lowest frequencies and falls rapidly as the frequency rises, whereas in transistor amplifiers distortion is more usually distributed evenly across the audio spectrum. More importantly, intermodulation distortion tends to be lower in transformers than it is transistor amplifiers. The outcome is that although transformers aren't absolutely free of distortion (nothing is), the distortion is very much more benign than the distortion produced by transistor amplifiers. This explains why the sound produced when a moving coil cartridge is used with a good transformer is so sublime and can create an open and spacious soundstage with amazing separation between instruments.
Quite simply, in terms of the bit in bold, I have never experienced those specific traits, to the same degree as I enjoy with the use of my Ortofon SPU Royal GM cartridge and Ortofon ST-80SE SUT, from any active MC stage, with either my SPU or many other MC cartridges I've owned and used with high-quality SUTs - and it is *that* which makes those combinations so very special and musically rewarding.
Sublime indeed! :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
23-10-2013, 19:08
Jez, you miss my point, I'll try again. "IT WAS THE IMPROVED MATCHING" it's the improved matching that wa important and that can be done in a number of ways, transformers both in domestic and pro audio, can in my opinion be the best, not as a way of raising or lowering gain necsessairily, but of matching electrically and of course this generally improves SQ.
Paul this sounds really interesting. I am afraid I don't understand it though. Can you explain further? How did you evaluate the matching? How is it possible to match components in the way you describe to improve sound quality? In my case I am using a Technics (specs on this link http://www.thevintageknob.org/technics-SL-10.html) and the Pip amplifiers you are familiar with (either 1 or 2, MC or MM stage). What do I need to achieve the best improved matching?
Thanks
Richard
pimlicoquad
23-10-2013, 19:35
I've just bought a Whest 30RDT from James, and funnily enough I had the conversation about SUT's with him. His antipathy towards them (understandable since he is promoting a phono stage that provides amplification for low output MC cartrdiges) and the things I had read about SUT's including the Rothwell article convinced me I should see whether I'm going to be rewarded with a new transparency or punished with humming, buzzing and other noise. So I've secured myself an Ortofon ST-80 SUT to go with my Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, and I'm looking forward to comparing the difference of using the Whest with and without it. I may well have wasted my money in the view of several on here, but I have no preconceived idea of what may or may not work most satisfactorily. I had best keep any conclusions I draw from the comparison private or otherwise risk the wrath of many on here. However if you see the SUT for sale in the usual places in the next few weeks, you'll be able to work out whether it has been a successful experiment or not.
Welcome to the forum, Richard! :)
Most interesting about the ST-80... Please don't hesitate to post your findings, no matter what they are. I'm sure that we'd all be interested in discovering the outcome :cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
23-10-2013, 20:53
I never use transformers in the audio path in either hifi or pro equipment and never would. In pro equipment it is widely acknowledged that the transformers cause colouration, that's why they are often used! It's considered a part of the artistic process to use certain equipment to impart a particular sound that the artist, producer or engineer is looking for. This is not something to be encouraged in the reply chain!
Would you say that things like JFETs colour things?
I've just bought a Whest 30RDT from James, and funnily enough I had the conversation about SUT's with him. His antipathy towards them (understandable since he is promoting a phono stage that provides amplification for low output MC cartrdiges) and the things I had read about SUT's including the Rothwell article convinced me I should see whether I'm going to be rewarded with a new transparency or punished with humming, buzzing and other noise. So I've secured myself an Ortofon ST-80 SUT to go with my Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, and I'm looking forward to comparing the difference of using the Whest with and without it. I may well have wasted my money in the view of several on here, but I have no preconceived idea of what may or may not work most satisfactorily. I had best keep any conclusions I draw from the comparison private or otherwise risk the wrath of many on here. However if you see the SUT for sale in the usual places in the next few weeks, you'll be able to work out whether it has been a successful experiment or not.
Now this should make an interesting read I had the Se version of what you've just bought and I have the Cadenza black, I cant wait to see what your results are.
Welcome to the forum, Richard! :)
Most interesting about the ST-80... Please don't hesitate to post your findings, no matter what they are. I'm sure that we'd all be interested in discovering the outcome :cool:
Marco.
Marco, whats the difference between the 80 and the 80SE like I have?
I never use transformers in the audio path in either hifi or pro equipment and never would. In pro equipment it is widely acknowledged that the transformers cause colouration, that's why they are often used! It's considered a part of the artistic process to use certain equipment to impart a particular sound that the artist, producer or engineer is looking for. This is not something to be encouraged in the reply chain!
Ah cool, so we have established that you are an analogue engineer, and not a digital or RF engineer.
On the other hand my producer friend uses a choice of nickel, iron or steel transformers depending on the desired tone. The unit is a Shadow Hills compressor with switchable transformers.
I've just bought a Whest 30RDT from James, and funnily enough I had the conversation about SUT's with him. His antipathy towards them (understandable since he is promoting a phono stage that provides amplification for low output MC cartrdiges) and the things I had read about SUT's including the Rothwell article convinced me I should see whether I'm going to be rewarded with a new transparency or punished with humming, buzzing and other noise.
Hi Richard
James' antipathy towards step-up transformers is well known and doesn't sit well with his superb products. As a Whest PS.30R user I can tell you that in combination with my Choir Hashimoto HM-7 step-up transformer it sounds quite superb. MikeMusic also uses a PS.30R with an Ortofon step-up to equally good effect. Whest make exceedingly good phono amps but in my experience, when used with a good step-up, they sound even better than using them in MC mode direct, whatever James says!
pimlicoquad
23-10-2013, 22:23
Oh, to those confused by my earlier post I meant the ST-80SE - I guess one has to be accurate about these things. I'm secretly hoping that it will be an improvement on the Whest alone, but we shall see. Interested to see that others are using the combination.
Arkless Electronics
23-10-2013, 23:29
On the other hand my producer friend uses a choice of nickel, iron or steel transformers depending on the desired tone. The unit is a Shadow Hills compressor with switchable transformers.
That says it all.. thanks
Arkless Electronics
23-10-2013, 23:30
Ah cool, so we have established that you are an analogue engineer, and not a digital or RF engineer.
Analogue and RF actually.
The Grand Wazoo
23-10-2013, 23:42
Having spent a long time trying to find the best SUTs for my system, I can say that getting the right combination to be extremely important. I also own an LFD moving coil only phono stage, which I find a very good alternative for low output cartridges.
I've had the theory for a long time that cartridge manufacturers will almost always sell or recommend a transformer because they know, understand and make coils, whereas, in the main, an electronics engineer will use the devices he is most comfortable with. And that usually means something other than winding bits of wire.
I do remember the extraordinary result I got with my Decca when, because I temporarily had no alternative MM stage, I plumbed it in reverse into the Mu SUTs to step down into the LFD! That was great and I must try it again.
Arkless Electronics
24-10-2013, 00:51
Marco. I'm sure you are a very a nice bloke who I would enjoy a few beers with in other circumstances, but I'm afraid you have made your prejudices very obvious in this and other threads. You are, based on previous, fanatically pro valves, transformers and coloured but exciting speakers....
I have said nothing at any point that I cannot back up with sound engineering principles and a life time of professional experience (which, I believe from what you have said,, you count as giving my opinions no more credence than those who struggle to wire a plug).
Nick and Anthony are possibly right (in the opinion of some anyway) , in the context of erm.. "decorum" to always disappear from threads when they get a bit controversial, as is their choice.
I'm no business man... but I'm a bloody good engineer. If having vested interests in money making was my choice then I'd be rich by now and not struggling financially... I'd be flogging foo mains cables and interconnects... and claiming that wall warts are never under any circumstances suitable for high end audio, even though I am well aware that the way the power is dealt with internally to the unit can be perfected to the point that any improvement on a wall wart would make no difference, no I'd be selling after market PSU's for loads of money (it's dead easy... could do it in my sleep etc.. whatever).
I have never claimed that valve amps cannot be very good indeed... or likewise with the best SUT's... and yet you appear to be trying to make an issue about my opinion that I have good reason to claim that both can be bettered when done to their optimum. I'm sure that if I was arguing vociferously that valves and transformers were the way forward, you're attitude would be rather different. It takes all sorts to make a world... or a forum!
At the end of the day it's your playground that I'm in and you can take your ball away.. but to do so merely because you don't agree with me on purely subjective aspects of an engineering discipline which I have studied all my life (and if you really want to discuss leakage inductance and capacitance, series and parallel resonance, hysteresis loop distortion, phase shift, ringing etc etc on the subject of transformers then lets go for it... ), would, I suggest, be extremely churlish.
Any one who wishes to contact me privately for repairs to their amps, (and for the Arkless 640P mods which have received erm.. rather good reviews!) upgrades and modifications, or even to commission one off's, is very welcome to do so... but be aware I have no truck with interconnects being important for a start... and mains cables making a difference would mean re-writing all the text books on electrical engineering and would be ridiculous... Power supplies... depending on the application my advice will usually hinge around improvements to the internal PSU arrangements rather than the external box. If folks wish to be bullshitted to about what they want or expect to hear, based on stuff on forums and in magazines then, there are plenty of people who will gladly bullshit them and take their money... If I joined them I wouldn't be skint.. but I also wouldn't sleep at night... (just call me "king Canute" if yer like...!)
Here's a section of my workbench, which includes.... some valved test gear!
http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/Jez1235/SDC10532_zpse09c0afd.jpg
That's all folks...
Arkless Electronics
24-10-2013, 01:21
Having spent a long time trying to find the best SUTs for my system, I can say that getting the right combination to be extremely important. I also own an LFD moving coil only phono stage, which I find a very good alternative for low output cartridges.
I've had the theory for a long time that cartridge manufacturers will almost always sell or recommend a transformer because they know, understand and make coils, whereas, in the main, an electronics engineer will use the devices he is most comfortable with. And that usually means something other than winding bits of wire
I do remember the extraordinary result I got with my Decca when, because I temporarily had no alternative MM stage, I plumbed it in reverse into the Mu SUTs to step down into the LFD! That was great and I must try it again.
That's an interesting perspective on it! :)
Gordon Steadman
24-10-2013, 05:53
Marco. I'm sure you are a very a nice bloke who I would enjoy a few beers with in other circumstances, but I'm afraid you have made your prejudices very obvious in this and other threads. You are, based on previous, fanatically pro valves, transformers and coloured but exciting speakers....
I have said nothing at any point that I cannot back up with sound engineering principles and a life time of professional experience (which, I believe from what you have said,, you count as giving my opinions no more credence than those who struggle to wire a plug).
Nick and Anthony are possibly right (in the opinion of some anyway) , in the context of erm.. "decorum" to always disappear from threads when they get a bit controversial, as is their choice.
I'm no business man... but I'm a bloody good engineer. If having vested interests in money making was my choice then I'd be rich by now and not struggling financially... I'd be flogging foo mains cables and interconnects... and claiming that wall warts are never under any circumstances suitable for high end audio, even though I am well aware that the way the power is dealt with internally to the unit can be perfected to the point that any improvement on a wall wart would make no difference, no I'd be selling after market PSU's for loads of money (it's dead easy... could do it in my sleep etc.. whatever).
I have never claimed that valve amps cannot be very good indeed... or likewise with the best SUT's... and yet you appear to be trying to make an issue about my opinion that I have good reason to claim that both can be bettered when done to their optimum. I'm sure that if I was arguing vociferously that valves and transformers were the way forward, you're attitude would be rather different. It takes all sorts to make a world... or a forum!
At the end of the day it's your playground that I'm in and you can take your ball away.. but to do so merely because you don't agree with me on purely subjective aspects of an engineering discipline which I have studied all my life (and if you really want to discuss leakage inductance and capacitance, series and parallel resonance, hysteresis loop distortion, phase shift, ringing etc etc on the subject of transformers then lets go for it... ), would, I suggest, be extremely churlish.
Any one who wishes to contact me privately for repairs to their amps, (and for the Arkless 640P mods which have received erm.. rather good reviews!) upgrades and modifications, or even to commission one off's, is very welcome to do so... but be aware I have no truck with interconnects being important for a start... and mains cables making a difference would mean re-writing all the text books on electrical engineering and would be ridiculous... Power supplies... depending on the application my advice will usually hinge around improvements to the internal PSU arrangements rather than the external box. If folks wish to be bullshitted to about what they want or expect to hear, based on stuff on forums and in magazines then, there are plenty of people who will gladly bullshit them and take their money... If I joined them I wouldn't be skint.. but I also wouldn't sleep at night... (just call me "king Canute" if yer like...!)
Here's a section of my workbench, which includes.... some valved test gear!
http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/Jez1235/SDC10532_zpse09c0afd.jpg
That's all folks...
I know someone else who has a bench like that:eek: In amongst all of the machines are bits of radio gear that are as equally confusing to the likes of me. How Jez and Firebottle produce what they do from that jumble I can never understand (mind you, you can't see the surface on my work bench). But then I know that some people are impressed that I can make stuff that I do on a lathe or with a chisel.
Talents obviously lie in different directions but talent it is, not just maths. I have a huge amount of respect for engineers in any field, they make our world work. We need the artists too but without the engineers, we would be in the stone age.
Firebottle
24-10-2013, 06:07
Some nice kit there Jez :thumbsup:
Cheers, Alan
MikeMusic
24-10-2013, 07:56
I've just bought a Whest 30RDT from James, and funnily enough I had the conversation about SUT's with him. His antipathy towards them (understandable since he is promoting a phono stage that provides amplification for low output MC cartrdiges) and the things I had read about SUT's including the Rothwell article convinced me I should see whether I'm going to be rewarded with a new transparency or punished with humming, buzzing and other noise. So I've secured myself an Ortofon ST-80 SUT to go with my Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, and I'm looking forward to comparing the difference of using the Whest with and without it. I may well have wasted my money in the view of several on here, but I have no preconceived idea of what may or may not work most satisfactorily. I had best keep any conclusions I draw from the comparison private or otherwise risk the wrath of many on here. However if you see the SUT for sale in the usual places in the next few weeks, you'll be able to work out whether it has been a successful experiment or not.
Please report back Richard
I've cast the odd envious look at the Whest models higher up than my .30r - running from the same SUT you are going to try
I have about only about the 3rd of the kit jez owns, but use very little of it nowadays , i tend to remake the same amps and just upgrade the components, at home i only use valves , and then only the valves i like to use, i have found transformers can be close to transparent if you spend enough and know what you want, I have also learnt that every gain stage in an amplifier or phono takes something away from the original signal. There are no free lunches, my experience is that less is more.. but component quality is the key, and from what i see that applies throughout the hi fi chain.
If any one has the test equipment to tell me why say a telefunken ecc83 sounds so much better than most of its contemporaries please let me know what that kit is...
Oldpinkman
24-10-2013, 08:54
Just googled "wall wart". I had mistakenly assumed it to be a typo on "wall mart" the US store, and the equivalent to my reference to the "woolworths" power pack I use on the PT. Live and learn. Strictly then the power pack Alan sent me with the Firebottle isn't a wall wart since it has a mains lead, but I'm nit-picking. I understand the term now. Jez, rather than hijack Andrews thread when I am pretty sure he's not interested, can you tell me about wall warts on a separate thread I've started. Thanks.:)
sq225917
24-10-2013, 11:30
Would you say that things like JFETs colour things?
Even a carefully built jfet input stage where you match all the components for noise and gain and set the operating conditions such that they are optimal for the cartridge connected to it will have a unique distortion signature. Of course that distortion is likely to be far, far below audibility. For sure it'll be 10's of db below bearing rumble and other such things.
Arkless Electronics
24-10-2013, 11:46
Some nice kit there Jez :thumbsup:
Cheers, Alan
Thanks!
That's just a part of it.... there's as much again to the left and right of that... and then as much again on shelves and on the floor waiting to be used when required.... WAF = ZERO :D
Arkless Electronics
24-10-2013, 11:50
Even a carefully built jfet input stage where you match all the components for noise and gain and set the operating conditions such that they are optimal for the cartridge connected to it will have a unique distortion signature. Of course that distortion is likely to be far, far below audibility. For sure it'll be 10's of db below bearing rumble and other such things.
Yep.. A FET based head amp could be built to have 0.0001% THD and frequency response from DC - 5MHz. As open a window to the actual sound of the cartridge as you will ever get.
Hi Jez,
Regarding your earlier post, we're cool (and like you say, I'm sure we could happily spend some time chatting over a few beers), but there's a lot of misunderstanding on your part as to why I champion the use of valves and transformers, and on forums vigorously defend that approach with audio, which has nothing whatsoever to do with me being prejudiced, certainly in the way you mean it.
The only thing I'm prejudiced against in audio is making compromises!! ;)
The problem is, you don't know me well enough yet, otherwise you wouldn't have accused me of essentially being a valve/traffo fanboy - and the only way you'll get to know me better is by us chatting more frequently here, or perhaps even on the phone. In that respect, I could PM you my number and we could have a proper chat and get to know better where each other are coming from.
Anyway, right now I'm busy, but I'll address the points you raised later, which will hopefully give you a better understanding of what I'm about! :cool:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
24-10-2013, 12:54
No problem Marco :)
My numbers on my website if you want to have a chat...
Hi Jez,
Regarding your earlier post, we're cool (and like you say, I'm sure we could happily spend some time chatting over a few beers), but there's a lot of misunderstanding on your part as to why I champion the use of valves and transformers, and on forums vigorously defend that approach with audio, which has nothing whatsoever to do with me being prejudiced, certainly in the way you mean it.
The problem is, you don't know me well enough yet, otherwise you wouldn't have accused me of essentially being a valve/traffo fanboy - and the only way you'll get to know me better is by us chatting more frequently here, or perhaps even on the phone. In that respect, I could PM you my number and we could have a proper chat and get to know better where each other are coming from.
Anyway, right now I'm busy, but I'll address the points you raised later, which will hopefully give you a better understanding of what I'm about! :cool:
Marco.
Are you available on that number later this evening, say around 8.30pm, or is it strictly a daytime thing? :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
24-10-2013, 13:09
Are you available on that number later this evening, say around 8.30pm, or is it strictly a daytime thing? :)
Marco.
Mobile at that time.... probably investigating the properties of hops somewhere by 8:30 :cool:
Beobloke
24-10-2013, 13:23
If any one has the test equipment to tell me why say a telefunken ecc83 sounds so much better than most of its contemporaries please let me know what that kit is...
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/Beobloke/AvoCT160_zpsad532f4f.jpg (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/Beobloke/media/AvoCT160_zpsad532f4f.jpg.html)
;)
Mobile at that time.... probably investigating the properties of hops somewhere by 8:30 :cool:
Lol - no worries... Best then if I call you sometime tomorrow between 10am-4pm :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
24-10-2013, 14:34
Just ring my mobile.. no problem..
Lol - are you paying the bill? ;) I don't get free calls to mobiles, dude. You're welcome to call my landline from your mobile, if you want, or I'll phone you tomorrow on your landline - you choose! :D
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
24-10-2013, 14:57
Oh OK... yeh I get them free...
Ring me tomorrow after 1 then.
Cool. Look forward to having a wee chinwag tomorrow :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
24-10-2013, 20:36
ok, getting back on subject. Phonostage design will hopefully be starting soon.. Watch this space.
ok, getting back on subject. Phonostage design will hopefully be starting soon.. Watch this space.
Am a bit confused about the subject, are you saying that an undesigned phono stage is already better than all the recommendations in this thread including the one that was probably used in the R&D of your own tonearm?
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/Beobloke/AvoCT160_zpsad532f4f.jpg (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/Beobloke/media/AvoCT160_zpsad532f4f.jpg.html)
;)
If only Adam... My avo mk4 tels me when the valve is good but not the sound quality...
Arkless Electronics
24-10-2013, 23:55
If only Adam... My avo mk4 tels me when the valve is good but not the sound quality...
Valve testers don't even tell you all that much about whether a valve is good..... They are notorious for it.. but nice bits of kit anyway. A mate of mine has the huge Mullard one with the punched cards for every valve that automatically sets it up for each valve...
Alex Nikitin
25-10-2013, 01:35
Hi Alex, I took some time to read about your designs for Creek, indeed they are putting your name in italics on the current Creek website. Hope you contribute some more to this forum and would be interested in any MM stages you design or build.
Hi Neil,
Thank you! Some of the circuits I've designed are available on my website and I sell kits for DIY MM and MC versions of my Kora 3T SE phono stage.
Cheers
Alex
Hi Alex,
Nice to see you popping in again. Hope all is well :)
I should point out at this stage (and indeed meant to do so earlier, but got caught up with other matters), that Alex's Kora phonostage is one of the best solid-state designs I've heard (outperforming many much more expensive alternatives) - indeed it was so good, that I could have lived with it. I'm pretty sure that this was down to its use of FETs, which are claimed to be the 'silicon equivalent of valves'.
Quite simply, the Kora does not sound like ANY other SS phonostage I've heard, and exhibits many of the sonic qualities I attribute to the best valve-based designs. *However*, I still preferred the dedicated MM version, used in conjunction with my SUT, than the MC version, used directly! ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
25-10-2013, 08:56
Am a bit confused about the subject, are you saying that an undesigned phono stage is already better than all the recommendations in this thread including the one that was probably used in the R&D of your own tonearm?
I've never designed my own tone arm? And, no, I'm not saying an undesigned phonostage is better than all the recommendations. I'm asking for recommendations for a new phonostage which has already been designed and Im also looking into the designs of the phonostages. Im getting the best of both worlds. I'm speaking to some very well known designers as to what they can produce and Ive also been offered a whole myriad of phonostages to try. To be in such a situation makes me very proud to be a member of AOS. It's the only place where I have spoken (via emails) to the guys that have designed some of my old kit when I first started out (how cool is that). Hope this answers your question.
Jez mentioned head amps earlier, and I meant to comment on it.
I like MC head amps almost as much as I like SUTs, and indeed in some instances, prefer them to the latter. Could he (or anyone else) outline the technical reasons which might explain why I enjoy the sonic effect and musical presentation of head amps (which use transistor-based technology), in conjunction with my valve MM phonostage, but generally dislike that same technology when used in isolation inside a standalone active MC stage?
For example, in many ways, I prefer the sound of the Denon DL-103, through my (Nick Gorham-modified) Lentek head amp, than I do through the many SUTs I've tried with that cartridge, and I've had similar results with other MC cartridges and head amps, particularly with the excellent Albarry unit, which hifi dave sells.
For me, there is something more intrinsically 'right' about the sound of vinyl replay when either a quality SUT or head amp is in the equation, and I'm convinced that there's more to it than me being seduced by any euphonic effects.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
25-10-2013, 11:31
There's absolutely no reason for this. Many amps with MC input internally add a head amp to the MM stage when switched to MC!
It would seem from the lack of replies to my "anyone interested in a head amp" post that no they aren't :scratch:
Jez mentioned head amps earlier, and I meant to comment on it.
I like MC head amps almost as much as I like SUTs, and indeed in some instances, prefer them to the latter. Could he (or anyone else) outline the technical reasons which might explain why I enjoy the sonic effect and musical presentation of head amps (which use transistor-based technology), in conjunction with my valve MM phonostage, but generally dislike that same technology when used in isolation inside a standalone active MC stage?
For example, in many ways, I prefer the sound of the Denon DL-103, through my (Nick Gorham-modified) Lentek head amp, than I do through the many SUTs I've tried with that cartridge, and I've had similar results with other MC cartridges and head amps, particularly with the excellent Albarry unit, which hifi dave sells.
For me, there is something more intrinsically 'right' about the sound of vinyl replay when either a quality SUT or head amp is in the equation, and I'm convinced that there's more to it than me being seduced by any euphonic effects.
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
25-10-2013, 11:56
Quite simply, the Kora does not sound like ANY other SS phonostage I've heard, and exhibits many of the sonic qualities I attribute to the best valve-based designs. *However*, I still preferred the dedicated MM version, used in conjunction with my SUT, than the MC version, used directly! ;)
Marco.
Funnily enough, a couple of days ago I hooked up the MM Kora 3T SE to a loaned Audio Note ANS3-H SUT, with the Kontrapunkt B up front; and I can confirm what Marco says here - the combination is utterly stunning and far far better than the Kora's lowly price tag would suggest. I can't comment on the MC Kora's performance, but I can definitely live with the MM version plus SUT.
There's absolutely no reason for this. Many amps with MC input internally add a head amp to the MM stage when switched to MC!
Well, it's definitely something that I can hear, as I've experienced it often enough! :)
It would seem from the lack of replies to my "anyone interested in a head amp" post that no they aren't :scratch:
I'm sure that there would be if you actually designed one and posted a picture of it in the trade room, outlining its design principles, when you were advertising it for sale there! You can't expect folk to get excited about something that they know almost nothing about and can't even visualise ;)
Anyway, expect a phone call to your mansion in about 10 mins! :D
Marco.
Funnily enough, a couple of days ago I hooked up the MM Kora 3T SE to a loaned Audio Note ANS3-H SUT, with the Kontrapunkt B up front; and I can confirm what Marco says here - the combination is utterly stunning and far far better than the Kora's lowly price tag would suggest. I can't comment on the MC Kora's performance, but I can definitely live with the MM version plus SUT.
Hi Hugo,
That's rather interesting and mirrors my own findings... The Kora is a cracking phono stage, punching WAY above its price tag, sonically, in both MM and MC forms. However, as good as the standalone MC stage is, with the cartridges I've used and tested it with in my system, the MM version trumps it when used with a top-quality SUT. The situation here is rather similar to that of the Whest: superb 'as is', but suitably enhanced with the use of a quality SUT.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
25-10-2013, 12:40
Well, it's definitely something that I can hear, as I've experienced it often enough! :)
I'm sure that there would be if you actually designed one and posted a picture of it in the trade room, outlining its design principles, when you were advertising it for sale there! You can't expect folk to get excited about something that they know almost nothing about and can't even visualise ;)
Anyway, expect a phone call to your mansion in about 10 mins! :D
Marco.
I was basically fishing to see if there was any interest... before picking up a soldering iron ;)
There's absolutely no reason for this. Many amps with MC input internally add a head amp to the MM stage when switched to MC!
Rather what I was thinking. However, I guess the stand alone head amp would have its own power supply - perhaps that makes the difference?
It would seem from the lack of replies to my "anyone interested in a head amp" post that no they aren't :scratch:
I would have been surprised if the mention of such a thing in this thread had solicited much response - much of it is about SUTs and valves after all.
I was basically fishing to see if there was any interest... before picking up a soldering iron ;)
Never mind picking up a soldering iron, pick up your bloody phone!! :lol:
I've phoned your landline twice in the last 15 mins, and it just goes through to voicemail.....
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
25-10-2013, 12:59
I thought it had been quiet phone call wise for the past few days.... just had a look at the landline wireless handset (I use my mobile most of the time) and it said "searching for base unit"! Removed and then replaced batteries to reset it and it should now be working! (had 8 voice mails!)
Arkless Electronics
25-10-2013, 13:22
Well, it's definitely something that I can hear, as I've experienced it often enough! :)
I'm sure that there would be if you actually designed one and posted a picture of it in the trade room, outlining its design principles, when you were advertising it for sale there! You can't expect folk to get excited about something that they know almost nothing about and can't even visualise ;)
Anyway, expect a phone call to your mansion in about 10 mins! :D
Marco.
It would be in a totally plain off the shelf case with no graphics or writing of any kind on it and powered by a wall wart supply.... or batteries if that's what people wanted... but I wouldn't expect battery life to be all that long. It could also be made so that when on it works from batteries and when off it is actually charging from the wall wart. All extra cost of course!
For something that I would envisage selling very few of, hand point to point wiring would actually be cheaper and easier than a PCB! Also if it had to look nice in a fancy box and have proper graphics/printing on the box than that would render it a non starter for something made in maybe "5 off" quantities.... or literally double the price!
Nice chatting, Jez! I think that we understand each other a bit better now :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
25-10-2013, 15:04
Nice chatting, Jez! I think that we understand each other a bit better now :)
Marco.
indeed :)
OCT
1
SUNILDA update ...
Dear Importers , dear friends
With the beginning of Autumn we want to launch our new phono stage, the SUNILDA.
Of course this SUNILDA is based on our well known and well accepted phono stage SUNILDA.
Mr. Becker - the designer - had the desire to increase the musical and technical features with some realy interesting improvements almost into perfection.
The complete layout has been re-designed and overworked with the following impovements :
First of all the 2 cupper sides - bottom and top - the layer thickness increased to 0,15 mm on each side .
Thus, significantly reduces the resistance per unit area on the PC board and little "power current islands" on the main PC board can`t built up any more.
At all measured points on the PC board you will find a realistic potential of ZERO Ohm.
The total ground level of the PC board became more homogeneous, and so disruptive external influences will have no chance.
But we wanted to have the copper of the PC board even more thicker.
To reach this we used a special technical feature, called the " MULTI VIA`S"
By the help of the " MULI VIA " , which connects the top side with the bottom side , we doubled the thickness of the cupper again, almost as if the PC board would have been built out of one complete piece of cupper.
Another positive feature of this new PC board is the simultaneous improvement of the shielding effect against any kind of disturbing electromacnetic fields.
Also the s/n ratio is improved so that any electromagnetic interfernces or stray power supply currents will be completly absorbed.
We are sure with this update Sunilda can continue successfully in the front classes at TOP - ranking
I would have a look at this phono stage!
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/Hi-Fi/frontpanelsblackgroupbrushedaluminiumnew_zps13a834 59.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/Hi-Fi/10_zps78eb83df.jpg
Yesterday I listened to the Brendan Perry album 'Ark' (mentioned in another recent thread on AoS), the results were simply astonishing!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wxH6fGHZ7Gg/TAaoTzUWxwI/AAAAAAAAA3g/CoYtLlO78fM/s400/00-brendan_perry-ark-tour_edition-2010-front.jpg
Arkless Electronics
26-10-2013, 11:06
Rarely have I seen such hype used to describe a perfectly normal circuit board.... all of the features mentioned are bog standard!
OCT
1
SUNILDA update ...
Dear Importers , dear friends
With the beginning of Autumn we want to launch our new phono stage, the SUNILDA.
Of course this SUNILDA is based on our well known and well accepted phono stage SUNILDA.
Mr. Becker - the designer - had the desire to increase the musical and technical features with some realy interesting improvements almost into perfection.
The complete layout has been re-designed and overworked with the following impovements :
First of all the 2 cupper sides - bottom and top - the layer thickness increased to 0,15 mm on each side .
Thus, significantly reduces the resistance per unit area on the PC board and little "power current islands" on the main PC board can`t built up any more.
At all measured points on the PC board you will find a realistic potential of ZERO Ohm.
The total ground level of the PC board became more homogeneous, and so disruptive external influences will have no chance.
But we wanted to have the copper of the PC board even more thicker.
To reach this we used a special technical feature, called the " MULTI VIA`S"
By the help of the " MULI VIA " , which connects the top side with the bottom side , we doubled the thickness of the cupper again, almost as if the PC board would have been built out of one complete piece of cupper.
Another positive feature of this new PC board is the simultaneous improvement of the shielding effect against any kind of disturbing electromacnetic fields.
Also the s/n ratio is improved so that any electromagnetic interfernces or stray power supply currents will be completly absorbed.
We are sure with this update Sunilda can continue successfully in the front classes at TOP - ranking
I would have a look at this phono stage!
Firebottle
26-10-2013, 11:09
That's just what I thought, and I've laid out a few in the past :rolleyes:
Alan
Isn't the short version - we have modified our existing design to have a thicker copper layer for the ground plane - otherwise it is the same.
Wakefield Turntables
26-10-2013, 13:04
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/Hi-Fi/frontpanelsblackgroupbrushedaluminiumnew_zps13a834 59.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/Hi-Fi/10_zps78eb83df.jpg
Yesterday I listened to the Brendan Perry album 'Ark' (mentioned in another recent thread on AoS), the results were simply astonishing!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wxH6fGHZ7Gg/TAaoTzUWxwI/AAAAAAAAA3g/CoYtLlO78fM/s400/00-brendan_perry-ark-tour_edition-2010-front.jpg
Well with a little luck next week I will have the pleasure of hearing one of these :eek: Report next week if it comes off!
Are you visiting Si then?
Wakefield Turntables
26-10-2013, 14:01
Are you visiting Si then?
:eyebrows: I might be!!!! Mark, which revision of the phonostage do you have? Am i correct in thinking that Rev 3 is the latest version? I've just subscribed to every thread I could find on the subject over on DIYAUDIO so I have a lot of catching up 8-(
I would have to check but I know that 2 and 3 are essentially the same except from some very minor layout differences.
Wakefield Turntables
26-10-2013, 15:14
ok thanks. I've found seven threads on the subject so far. I've gone through three of them. The one Im dreading is the paradise builders thread with over 7000+ messages :eek:
Yeah, there is quite a lot of chaff among the wheat too!
OK, I have had a response from my 'circuit board guru' (Si) and he has confirmed (as I thought) that I have series 2 boards. The difference is four Wima film caps. In my case these are soldered to the back of the board directly to the legs of the components. The series 3 boards have these on the top surface but inevitably they are less close to the components they relate to - the series 3 boards also have a ground plane error so a track has to be cut to resolve this. So it is swings and roundabouts and ultimately the differences are entirely academic.
I would caution against the idea of intruding boutique components for the sake of it though! Every aspect of this build, from the circuit design to the component choice, has been carefully considered and no corners have been cut.
Wakefield Turntables
26-10-2013, 18:56
I would caution against the idea of intruding boutique components for the sake of it though! Every aspect of this build, from the circuit design to the component choice, has been carefully considered and no corners have been cut.
Yeah I'm afraid I'm guilty of stuff like that (very naughty) :o but I have come to the conclusion that "I DONT KNOW BEST" and the designers do! The only thing that I might consider doing is hard wiring power leads and interconnects to minimise the number of RCA's and removing the IEC's. Not only does this make things a little cheaper but I'm also a great believer in simplfying the chain. I'm sure I'll be flamed for saying that but hey-ho!
Yeah I'm afraid I'm guilty of stuff like that
It is quite understandable, but at the same time it is rather akin to making your car go faster by adding 'go faster' bits -yes they make a difference and sometimes this is an improvement - but much, much greater gains are to be had within the actual circuit/engine/chassis.
I wouldn't flame you for saying so but I would say that I am not unaware of these issues when I built my stage all, and I mean all, of these issues were considered and weighed up - absolutely everything has been decided on after due consideration of the pros and cons (as is the case when I design or build anything). For example, the input sockets match the output plugs from the arm and the same goes for the output RCA's, the signal wiring is Teflon insulated silver plated coaxial and even the gauge of the internal power cabling has been considered. However, these are all extremely minor issues compared to many of those considered within the design as a whole (they are just easy to see).
sq225917
26-10-2013, 23:45
Here's the total list of things you can change from the standard build.
1. Toshiba transistors on the shunt, they tend to be closer matched than the alternatives.
2. Replace the j310 with J113, slightly lower nose.
3. Replace the J107 with 2sk170, if you can find genuine parts.
4. Fancy resistors for cart loading.
5. Some fancy bits for the RIAA stage, any resistors and almost any caps. 18k2, 147k, 11n and 33.3n. But bear in mind they need to be matched down to 0.1% so forget anything like boutique film caps, you'll simply never get them to match closely enough. Stick to styrenes and small film foils, larger film foils unless counter wound will add inductance.
The v2 and v3 are to all intents and purposes the same boards, there's no difference to sound.
You can go to town on the PSU if you like. I'm not saying there would be an audible difference between using £6 common mode chokes and having Lundahl wind you some in silver foil to the tune of £300 each but you could do it if you wanted. One area where you can improve it is the earth arrangement. It's quiet in stock form with no earth lifts but if you fancy you can link up every chassis/common contact point with a DDRC so you leave just one unbroken earth path through the whole thing. it sounds fine without it, but there's always the tweaking.
And of course there is a new output buffer board the Calvin buffer which is intended to make it a better driver of long cables or into low input impedance amps down the line.
Wakefield Turntables
27-10-2013, 09:00
To, Simon & Mark,
Guys, many thanks for the help, especially the info and what can and can't be done to the board, I have a feeling I have just saved myself having to trawl through several thousand posts. I need to hear the thing first and then decide if anything needs doing to it, and more importantly if it can live in my system.
Wakefield Turntables
03-11-2013, 20:52
Could my quest nearly be over....?
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