Amazing isnt it

[ledzep]

This is amazing close up of vinyl, to think we drag a lump of diamond through this yet it sounds lovely.10758

[hifi_dave]

I invariably drag a chunk of diamond through it but each to their own.:rolleyes:

[ledzep]

Oh yeah ok Dave lol a chunk of diamond (sorted Dave) still amazing though when you look at it

[User211]

Interesting format vinyl - you can literally see the distortion in the groove:mental:

[ledzep]

Yeah all the lumps and gouges

[cloth-ears]

I had forgotten for a minute why I went all digital, thanks for reminding me :eyebrows:

[User211]

I wonder what that gunk actually is? Doesn't look like dust... could it be mould release agent?

[ledzep]

I had forgotten for a minute why I went all digital, thanks for reminding me :eyebrows:
:lol:

[ledzep]

I wonder what that gunk actually is? Doesn't look like dust... could it be mould release agent?

Havent got a clue think it may be the actual record surface the way its made :scratch:

[User211]

Don't reckon - those blobs are nothing the cutter will have done, and logically it can't be gunk left after the cutting head has been through.

[sq225917]

There's no such thing as 'mould release agent'. The only thing that goes into the press is the biscuit and the label, the stampers aren't coated with anything after their final water rinse after leaving the plating tanks. urban myth.

[twickers]

There's no such thing as 'mould release agent'. The only thing that goes into the press is the biscuit and the label, the stampers aren't coated with anything after their final water rinse after leaving the plating tanks. urban myth.

Do you mean Russ Andrews was fibbin then? :eyebrows:

[User211]

There's no such thing as 'mould release agent'. The only thing that goes into the press is the biscuit and the label, the stampers aren't coated with anything after their final water rinse after leaving the plating tanks. urban myth.

Stearic acid is supposedly actually in the vinyl itself...??? http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?74580-Mould-release-agent-on-vinyl

[trio leo]

when I see a photo like that I'm surprised we can hear anything more than a loud scraping sound, it's quite fantastic really.

enjoy your music

regards Al

[ledzep]

when I see a photo like that I'm surprised we can hear anything more than a loud scraping sound, it's quite fantastic really.

enjoy your music

regards Al
Yes it is quite fantastic when you think about it, a stone being dragged along some grooves in a type of plastic. Ethylene (found in crude oil) and chlorine (found in regular salt) When processed, both the substances are combined to form Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) resin.

[The Grand Wazoo]

....those blobs are nothing the cutter will have done, and logically it can't be gunk left after the cutting head has been through.

What's a cutter to do with this? - records are made in a press aren't they?

gZCfkjIvOBI

[Joe]

What's a cutter to do with this? -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM6j14DDtGI

[cloth-ears]

All in all it is quite amazing. Thomas Edison was a genius. It started off with the first mono recordings in the late 1800’s. The 60’s brought us stereo and the 70’s quadraphonic. Sometime in the 80’s Hitachi even managed to get video films onto vinyl. It makes you wonder what would have happened to the format if digital had not of arrived on the scene. Just how far would this vinyl miracle have gone?

Thomas Edison 1847-1931. God bless you sir:cool:

[Macca]

Living across the road from Thomas Edison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJdpJNR0lNY

'Hey, figure it out for yourself, man!'

[The Grand Wazoo]

It's probably not fully appreciated exactly how remarkable the feat of reproduction from a record is. For as little as a couple of hundred quid you can have in your home one of the most precise measuring devices that man has ever made! (note the use of the word 'precise' as opposed to 'accurate' - there is a big difference)

It appears crude and rather low-tech doesn't it? But when you consider the job it has to do, you realise just how good a system it is. The variations in the dimensions of the groove that are related to the very lowest levels of sound available on a record are, apparently considerably smaller than the wavelength of light! And all of this in a hostile environment full of high pressure sound waves.

The only really significant attempt at bettering the system was the Finial laser turntable - they chucked millions at the development of that and it didn't really get anywhere.

[Macca]

.

The only really significant attempt at bettering the system was the Finial laser turntable - they chucked millions at the development of that and it didn't really get anywhere.

A laser TT did make it to market in the mid 2000s, not by Finial but based on their research. HFW reviewed it over 2 issues (which I've just looked for and can't find - typical). It was about £20K. NK found it to be a bit bass shy and showed up surface noise way too much (as you'd expect). Throwing the baby out with the bathwater in a lot of ways. People like vinyl because it's vinyl and it sounds like it. If you want perfection there's always the compact disc ;)

[The Grand Wazoo]

Yes, I think that was a development of the Finial - resurrected by a company who had bought the rights to use the design.

[The Grand Wazoo]

All in all it is quite amazing. Thomas Edison was a genius. It started off with the first mono recordings in the late 1800’s. The 60’s brought us stereo and the 70’s quadraphonic. Sometime in the 80’s Hitachi even managed to get video films onto vinyl. It makes you wonder what would have happened to the format if digital had not of arrived on the scene. Just how far would this vinyl miracle have gone?

Thomas Edison 1847-1931. God bless you sir:cool:

The modern turntable has little in common with what Edison designed though, has it? Edison's phonograph was potentially a far superior device. When Emille Berliner set about 'improving' on the concept of reproduction he really did throw the baby out with the bathwater!

Edison's Phonograph:

Cylindrical carrying device
Helical groove
Constant groove speed
Pickup mounted on parallel tracking device



Berliner's Gramophone:

Flat carrying device
Spiral groove
Variable groove speed - end of side distortion
Pivoted arm - lateral tracking errors & difficulty in rigid coupling


If the problem of engineering a sound reproduction device were to be solved today, I wonder what a record player would look like?

[Macca]

If the problem of engineering a sound reproduction device were to be solved today, I wonder what a record player would look like?

Laserdisc. Analogue, flat FR 20-20K, no EOSD, no wear and tear.

[cloth-ears]

The modern turntable has little in common with what Edison designed though, has it? Edison's phonograph was potentially a far superior device. When Emille Berliner set about 'improving' on the concept of reproduction he really did throw the baby out with the bathwater!

Edison's Phonograph:

Cylindrical carrying device
Helical groove
Constant groove speed
Pickup mounted on parallel tracking device



Berliner's Gramophone:

Flat carrying device
Spiral groove
Variable groove speed - end of side distortion
Pivoted arm - lateral tracking errors & difficulty in rigid coupling


If the problem of engineering a sound reproduction device were to be solved today, I wonder what a record player would look like?

Well Mr Wazoo; if we are in the mood for splitting hairs I would have to say that the original version had to be improved. Not only was the cylinder hard to store and easy to break but it could only manage about 2 minutes of music at its current size. In order to get an hour or so the cylinder would have had to of been considerably larger thus exacerbating the aforesaid problems. :ner:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Never mind the quality, feel the length, eh?

[cloth-ears]

Never mind the quality, feel the length, eh?

Yes Sir Mr Wazoo, either that or have Dark Side of the Moon on something the size of a bucket playing on a record player the size of a tumble dryer. I would doubt that you could fit your record collection in your house if this were so.

[The Grand Wazoo]

My point Bob, is that Berliner's solution introduced it's own set of compromises and problems and that, perhaps there may have been another way of addressing the difficulties with the Edison design.
Never take anything for granted is a good maxim.

[Macca]

Yes Sir Mr Wazoo, either that or have Dark Side of the Moon on something the size of a bucket playing on a record player the size of a tumble dryer. I would doubt that you could fit your record collection in your house if this were so.

Well it is all relative - I have aquaintences who think I am crazy because I have lots of big boxes and big loudspeakers to listen to music instead of a fag packet sized white box and ear buds. That's before we get onto the records and CDs or the 'physical media' as it is called today. Face it - if the format required an enormous playback mechanism and bucket sized recordings a lot of us here would still have them.

[cloth-ears]

My point Bob, is that Berliner's solution introduced it's own set of compromises and problems and that, perhaps there may have been another way of addressing the difficulties with the Edison design.
Never take anything for granted is a good maxim.

I know Waz I was only messing. The cylinder was not easy to mass produce or store. The flat disc can be pressed out by the millions bringing music to the masses and great unwashed. As with all good inventions ease of manufacturing takes priority. Besides, after eliminating round and flat there are not that many alternatives left. Even now it’s hard to believe that almost a million songs can be stored on something the size of a matchbox. I wonder what Mr Edison would have thought of that?

[cloth-ears]

Yes, but maybe not as many recordings as we have now. Perhaps we have been spoilt just a little.

[cloth-ears]

Well it is all relative - I have aquaintences who think I am crazy because I have lots of big boxes and big loudspeakers to listen to music instead of a fag packet sized white box and ear buds. That's before we get onto the records and CDs or the 'physical media' as it is called today. Face it - if the format required an enormous playback mechanism and bucket sized recordings a lot of us here would still have them.

Yes, but maybe not as many recordings as we have now. Perhaps we have been spoilt just a little.

[shane]

Well Mr Wazoo; if we are in the mood for splitting hairs I would have to say that the original version had to be improved. Not only was the cylinder hard to store and easy to break but it could only manage about 2 minutes of music at its current size. In order to get an hour or so the cylinder would have had to of been considerably larger thus exacerbating the aforesaid problems. :ner:

OK, lets split some hairs. Misquoting you slightly, not only was the the 12" 78 easy to break (although admittedly easier to store), but it could only manage about 2 minutes of music. The identically sized LP solved that, so there's no reason to assume that an LP vinyl cylinder would be significantly bigger than the original. I rather like the idea of a Linn Kylinder....

Would a disk jockey have been a tube jockey, do you suppose?

[cloth-ears]

OK, lets split some hairs. Misquoting you slightly, not only was the the 12" 78 easy to break (although admittedly easier to store), but it could only manage about 2 minutes of music. The identically sized LP solved that, so there's no reason to assume that an LP vinyl cylinder would be significantly bigger than the original. I rather like the idea of a Linn Kylinder....

Would a disk jockey have been a tube jockey, do you suppose?

Well Mr Shane, if I may be allowed to split that proverbial hair even more and be a right smarty pants I would say that if you measure the circumference of the cylinder and multiply that by its length you will see that a 12 inch LP has a much longer grove and also has two sides. Now, fight your way out of that one. I do like your Linn idea. :ner:

[The Grand Wazoo]

The idea of variable pitch cutting was a big innovation that allowed the groove to be cut at a closer pitch when possible and to widen out for the high level modulations - this made it possible to cram much more time onto a side. The thing is - there are more babies being slung out with the bathwater - it means that you can't gear the arm's movement across the disc to the rotation of the platter - a shame because this would allow for some properly solid connections between the cartridge & turntable while also removing the lateral tracking error.

[cloth-ears]

The idea of variable pitch cutting was a big innovation that allowed the groove to be cut at a closer pitch when possible and to widen out for the high level modulations - this made it possible to cram much more time onto a side. The thing is - there are more babies being slung out with the bathwater - it means that you can't gear the arm's movement across the disc to the rotation of the platter - a shame because this would allow for some properly solid connections between the cartridge & turntable while also removing the lateral tracking error.

I would say that lateral tracking error is “small change” when compared to the rather poor SNR of the format. If I were to reinvent the LP then I would make it analogue optical. That would be very easy to do with a laser and would also allow for much more information per linear inch. The complete works of The Beatles would fit on one side with room to spare.

[User211]

What's a cutter to do with this? - records are made in a press aren't they?

gZCfkjIvOBI

Er... I said the cutter had nowt to do with it?

The logic is something like this, though. A record is cut by a cutter onto a master - the inverse of which is used to make the stamp. Any cutting shavings, if they made it into the stamp, would be recessed into the pressed record's surface. That's not what we see in the pic. The "gunk" is quite plainly above the surface of the vinyl.

[The Grand Wazoo]

OK thanks for clarifying that.