View Full Version : CD Mats do work
MikeMusic
18-10-2013, 11:35
A while back I saw a Russ Andrews supplied StatMat going on Ebay
Worth a punt I thought and yes, it improved sound quality, flimsy bit of plastic - well worth having
The guy who was sold it said he upgraded to a Marigo 3D so when I saw one of those come up on Ebay I tried that too - even better !
'Course there's another level
Marigo Signature - and that's even better still
Not seen CD mats talked about here so there's my 2p
Also makes DVDs better too they say
StanleyB
18-10-2013, 12:02
If you put a reasonably heavy piece of equipment, like say an amp, on top of a CD player, the sound improves. I learned about this when I was a repair engineer. We stacked things on top of each other for space savings reasons, and then left them on test.
A CD mat on the other hand causes the Reed-Solomon error correction in a CDP to do overtime as it tries to compensate for reading errors brought on by the changed distance between disc and laser pick-up. These error corrections make the sound output appear smoother. Try it on very dynamic and complex music.
Tony Moore
18-10-2013, 12:10
Surely said mats go on the label side? Am I missing something but how can that affect the distance to the laser? :scratch:
MikeMusic
18-10-2013, 12:21
If you put a reasonably heavy piece of equipment, like say an amp, on top of a CD player, the sound improves. I learned about this when I was a repair engineer. We stacked things on top of each other for space savings reasons, and then left them on test.
A CD mat on the other hand causes the Reed-Solomon error correction in a CDP to do overtime as it tries to compensate for reading errors brought on by the changed distance between disc and laser pick-up. These error corrections make the sound output appear smoother. Try it on very dynamic and complex music.
I've tried it on various types of music. Can't remember what as it was a while ago
Would Tiny Williams Lifetime be considered dynamic and complex ?
Gentle Giant - In a glass house ?
Echoing Tony's question ..the mat goes on top. Surely the CD is the same height to the laser ?
Surely said mats go on the label side? Am I missing something but how can that affect the distance to the laser? :scratch:
Quite (no you aren't missing anything). The extra mass may make a difference to the servos but the distance the disc is from the laser isn't altered.
brucew268
24-10-2013, 21:35
My question is whether the change in sound brought by the Marigo Signature was worth the extra cost? Yes, 'worth' is very subjective, but the Marigo Signature is 4-5x the cost of the Statmat. The statmat price would be worth a risk, but the Marigo would need to be impressively better for me to then pay that much more (but that's just me). So how would you characterize/quantify the improvement?
walpurgis
24-10-2013, 21:50
Hmm. All a bit 'Beltist in my view! I'd be open to a being convinced by a demo, but I'm sceptical to say the least.
l have four or five Statmats, and in my humble opinion they do make a nice difference- until they get stuck in the ruddy player, are there any mats that overcome this problem folks:scratch:( Have not tried the very latest Statmat though).
sq225917
25-10-2013, 07:33
The outer edge of a CD might not be perfectly concentric to the hole in the middle so a perfectly concentric mat may add some rotational mass that helps reduce any wobble by partly correcting the notional COG of the spinning disc and making the life of the servo easier. Maybe... Of course the servo should have its own isolated PSU and shouldn't interact with the rest of the CD player much anyway.
MikeMusic
25-10-2013, 07:50
My question is whether the change in sound brought by the Marigo Signature was worth the extra cost? Yes, 'worth' is very subjective, but the Marigo Signature is 4-5x the cost of the Statmat. The statmat price would be worth a risk, but the Marigo would need to be impressively better for me to then pay that much more (but that's just me). So how would you characterize/quantify the improvement?
Yes. Working on the 2nd hand prices I find on Ebay. RRP, maybe.
It's been a while since I compares so I'll do a comparison at the weekend to remind me on the main system which will give the best details
MikeMusic
25-10-2013, 07:51
Hmm. All a bit 'Beltist in my view! I'd be open to a being convinced by a demo, but I'm sceptical to say the least.
Quite.
I was only prepared to buy 2nd hand, but still impressed after I heard them working
I started this off as I'd never seen anyone mention them before
MikeMusic
25-10-2013, 07:54
l have four or five Statmats, and in my humble opinion they do make a nice difference- until they get stuck in the ruddy player, are there any mats that overcome this problem folks:scratch:( Have not tried the very latest Statmat though).
Statmats are very thin, floppy plastic
Marigos are about as thick and stiff as a CD
MikeMusic
25-10-2013, 07:56
I've also got a green (!) plastic ring I need to try out too.
Picked that up for a couple of quid
Fiddly to put on
Better than nothing, not as good as a Marigo
I'll do tests on Sunday and report back
icehockeyboy
25-10-2013, 11:05
I've also got a green (!) plastic ring I need to try out too.
Picked that up for a couple of quid
Fiddly to put on
Better than nothing, not as good as a Marigo
I'll do tests on Sunday and report back
I had a green one...........couldn't hear a jot of difference, that was with a Consonance Linear CD 2.2, and then a Marantz of a similar price.
Rare Bird
25-10-2013, 11:14
Well then a fixed lazer Mech players have to be an obvious upgrade then as they use a heavy magnetic puck to clamp the disc instead of the flimsy standard tray way!
Is this what the accessory in question is trying to acheive extra stability of the disc?
MikeMusic
25-10-2013, 11:40
Well then a fixed lazer Mech players have to be an obvious upgrade then as they use a heavy magnetic puck to clamp the disc instead of the flimsy standard tray way!
Is this what the accessory in question is trying to acheive extra stability of the disc?
I tried most mats in
Marantz, Arcam Alpha - sitting on top of CD
Naim CDX, CDX2 and Rega Isis - clamped
There was a worthwhile difference in all
I also have a low spec NAD I could try
MikeMusic
25-10-2013, 13:03
Quick test
Naim CDX with Puck only
Naim CDX with Marigo Signature and Puck
Michael Brook Albino Alligator
Track 8 Albo gator
Sounds fine without the Marigo. Good track to test with
With Marigo. More oomph in the drums, more detail in the bells, do love that thump !
More presence in the bass. Might be my imagination, sounds louder
Overall more rounded sound and more pleasant to listen to
Rare Bird
25-10-2013, 13:14
:rfl:
Statmats are very thin, floppy plastic
Marigos are about as thick and stiff as a CD
Mmmm thick and stiff sounds appealing, please report back Mike:)
brucew268
25-10-2013, 19:58
Dry Ginger over on AA claims that using the latest Marigo Ultimate Signature affixed with two pieces of double-sided tape gives her the best result, even when used during a rip.
walpurgis
25-10-2013, 20:17
In any case, I thought Marigo were best known for rubber gloves. :eyebrows:
Mr Kipling
25-10-2013, 20:37
Stan Curtis built a one-off prototype cd for B&W, and amongst various design features, it had vaccum suction for holding the cd to a platter.
If you put a reasonably heavy piece of equipment, like say an amp, on top of a CD player, the sound improves. I learned about this when I was a repair engineer. We stacked things on top of each other for space savings reasons, and then left them on test.
.
For a long time I always had a 10 kilo plastic coated weight sat on top of my Sony 791E as I was convinced it sounded better although I could not pin down exactly what the improvement was. I really regarded it as a bit of foo though as I have never, until now, had someone say the same thing. If there is a genuine improvement it is very subtle, I doubt if I could tell the difference blind. If there is an improvement what could be the cause? Never tried a CD mat, they always seemed a bit too crazy an idea.
MikeMusic
26-10-2013, 12:12
Dry Ginger over on AA claims that using the latest Marigo Ultimate Signature affixed with two pieces of double-sided tape gives her the best result, even when used during a rip.
AA ?
brucew268
28-10-2013, 00:43
AA ?
Sorry, I did not notice this earlier. AA= http://audioasylum.com/
MikeMusic
28-10-2013, 08:10
Sorry, I did not notice this earlier. AA= http://audioasylum.com/
Thanks !
mad-moon
07-12-2013, 15:30
this cd matt seems cheap enough to have a punt at..if anyones interested in trying one out..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300947751731?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_3176wt_932
MikeMusic
07-12-2013, 15:48
this cd matt seems cheap enough to have a punt at..if anyones interested in trying one out..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300947751731?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_3176wt_932
Not heard of that one
See any reviews ?
mr sneff
07-12-2013, 16:04
Years ago, in the heyday of painting the edges of CDs green, I bought an Audio Technica AT674 CD Stabilizer. The blurb on the label says:
1. Diffused laser reflections from the CD are avoided by the matt black alumite finish, which reduced pick-up read errors.
2. A high level of protection is provided by employing a precision alumite-treated aluminum plate.
3.Controls rotational vibration of the CD, 12.5g is added to the total rotating mass to increase the moment of inertia.
I don't know how true any of that is true (easy enough to verify the 12.5g :)) but when I used it on the Arcam Alpha CD player I had at the time the sound was definitely more spacious and 3 dimensional, even friends who weren't into hifi could appreciate the difference. When I sold the Arcam and upgraded to a Linn Karik the stabilizer had no effect; perhaps the effect is more noticeable with lower quality transports.
Now I use a Pioneer Stable Platter player as a transport, can't see it making a difference with this. If anybody wants to give it a spin I could easily post it in a slimline CD case.
clarkey555
07-12-2013, 16:11
used a s.i.d mat a few years ago...total snakeoil imho :bum:
MikeMusic
07-12-2013, 16:20
used a s.i.d mat a few years ago...total snakeoil imho :bum:
I'l take the 3 different jobbies I have to the Isis - Ayre CDP showdown next week at Martin's !
clarkey555
07-12-2013, 16:25
tell you something mike I was so glad the retailer offered me a full refund inc p+p was starting to think it was the worst 20 quid I had ever spent:)
mad-moon
07-12-2013, 17:27
don't know anything about this one..my mate is using the SID which is about the £20 mark..on his primare..the difference in sound is subtle on the better side..but it is there..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231093398864?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_3564wt_1170
Not heard of that one
See any reviews ?
clarkey555
07-12-2013, 17:39
this cd matt seems cheap enough to have a punt at..if anyones interested in trying one out..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300947751731?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_3176wt_932
no thanks alan especially at that price 2 pund maybe :lolsign:
mad-moon
07-12-2013, 17:57
works for my pal...I've tried a sid mat on my Marantz cd spinner..and there is a small difference on certain cd's mainly fast tracks that can sometimes be a bit muddled..but hey..everyone to their own...I think I might buy one..tis only 20 sovs...another thing i've been advised to do..is place a cd on a flat surface and draw round it with a black permanent marker to black out the outer edge of the cd..hmmmm..I don't know??
no thanks alan especially at that price 2 pund maybe :lolsign:
MikeMusic
09-12-2013, 09:47
tell you something mike I was so glad the retailer offered me a full refund inc p+p was starting to think it was the worst 20 quid I had ever spent:)
The sound improvement with the Statmat is certainly worth £20
Both the Marigos are worth a lot more. Takes the CD player up a couple of levels
brucew268
09-12-2013, 10:59
Marigos... Takes the CD player up a couple of levels
Have you noticed whether Marigos or Statmats make a difference to the sound of files ripped from CD, or does it seem that the ripping process avoids the problems introduced during realtime playback of CD's?
MikeMusic
09-12-2013, 11:24
Have you noticed whether Marigos or Statmats make a difference to the sound of files ripped from CD, or does it seem that the ripping process avoids the problems introduced during realtime playback of CD's?
I imagine it would as the difference in sound quality is there when playing the CD and I would think it was the same process via virtually the same electronics
Don't rip so can't say for sure
brucew268
09-12-2013, 12:01
Don't rip so can't say for sure
Sorry. I misread your equipment list.
I shall not be trying CD mats. BOL if you do.
I'l take the 3 different jobbies I have to the Isis - Ayre CDP showdown next week at Martin's !
Well, I was very surprised. The top Marigo mat took the sound of two quite different players closer together. That, in my mind, is convergence towards the unattainable perfect replay.
I can't quite stomach (especially after Christmas) the outlay for a Marigo, but I have ordered a John Blue on the basis that there is little to lose and a lot to learn about CD mats.
MikeMusic
28-12-2013, 11:06
Well, I was very surprised. The top Marigo mat took the sound of two quite different players closer together. That, in my mind, is convergence towards the unattainable perfect replay.
I can't quite stomach (especially after Christmas) the outlay for a Marigo, but I have ordered a John Blue on the basis that there is little to lose and a lot to learn about CD mats.
You can have a Statmat and a vanilla Marigo to try out as well. I've yet to put my list of upgraded stuff to sell and they will be on that
You can have a Statmat and a vanilla Marigo to try out as well.
I'll take the Marigo as soon as you set a price!
MikeMusic
28-12-2013, 15:12
I'll take the Marigo as soon as you set a price!
Ok with the 3D Series 2 (vanilla) then ?
I use the Signature
Sure - got to start somewhere.
Meanwhile, I've just found my AT674 disc stabiliser. Haven't used it in years, will try it now!
Haselsh1
28-12-2013, 15:49
Back in 1985 I remember the guys and gals we all hung around with recommending putting two CD's in your player as most CDP's with deep drawers could take two. Apparently it had a dramatic stabilising effect and all for no outlay.
That's interesting, Shaun, although I'm not going to risk the expensive Pioneer drawer mech in my Ayre by loading a double-thickness disc.
sq225917
28-12-2013, 18:22
I love the idea that two discs with twice the potential for instability due to increased mass could be a panacea for a none existent fault. If one CDcauses an error, by logic two should be twice as bad.
Regardless, surely all that matters is if the user perceives a genuine sonic improvement? Theory and/or 'what shouldn't happen' means jack shit, if listening results clearly show differently.
Marco.
Haselsh1
29-12-2013, 12:07
I love the idea that two discs with twice the potential for instability due to increased mass could be a panacea for a none existent fault. If one CDcauses an error, by logic two should be twice as bad.
There's clearly some very strange logic at work here.
The sound improvement with the Statmat is certainly worth £20
Both the Marigos are worth a lot more. Takes the CD player up a couple of levels
Are you sure, how does one assess the price?
If something was free and made a considerable sound improvement but then someone took it away and charged you for it, would it suddenly be worth the amount they were asking because the sound improvement? One should judge price on the cost to make something.
The cost per/sound is how the con-artist side of Hifi Foo works! Cheap ways to improve sound should remain cheap or ways to do things cheaper should be passed on to the consumer. Instead what we get is an increase in price no matter what.. and unfortunately it's encouraged by the people who buy.
Usually in a pack of CD-Rs there is a thin polycarbonate disc at the top - anyone tried that? Sometimes a soft 'white foam' disc that kind of grips to the CDRs. The two combined might give a good vibration reduction result.
Looking at these mats on ebay, they look like they cost about £1 to get made but you have to probably pay for 100 of them. Still, at $25 a pop, that's a probable $18 profit on each after packaging, time cost and ebay fees. So you get $1800 return on your $100 outlay!
Now THAT certainly has a good sound to it !
Cut something for free at home too - just need a fixed cutter and something that goes round like a turntable..
Hey Ho, I guess it's easier to click and spend!
I love the idea that two discs with twice the potential for instability due to increased mass could be a panacea for a none existent fault. If one CDcauses an error, by logic two should be twice as bad.
Logic only works if you know what's going on!
I would say that vibrations of a CD that might cause a load of heavy servo action with the laser. Changing the mass will change the vibrations - more mass would likely make vibrations of a lower frequency and so make the lens focusing activity less frantic. Would only make virbation worse if it happened to move the natural frequency of the combo closer to average frequency being imparted to it.
Or the current vibration could be faster than the focus servo can react and so raising the mass brings it down into a range where the laser does react and so becomes more frantic..
Different laser servo activity can cause different levels of high frequency noise both to power/earth (if not isolated enough) and electromagnetically via the ribbon cable from the laser. Different frequencies interact with other things differently, perhaps so that a worse laser performance causes less interference and vice versa - it's one big system and each individually different to some extent.
If any of that sounds wrong, it's just stuff I've picked up from far more knowledgeable and experienced CD repair engineers and diy-ers in threads on diyaudio.com
As an aside, it's quite amazing how much vibration CD players and cd-rw/dvd drives can cope with - my current laptop vibrates like crazy reading a disc. Those servos must be super fast! Incidently, my VRDS mech machine (Tascam CD701) has the least problems of reading scratched discs that I've experienced.
I would say that vibrations of a CD that might cause a load of heavy servo action with the laser. Changing the mass will change the vibrations - more mass would likely make vibrations of a lower frequency and so make the lens focusing activity less frantic. Would only make virbation worse if it happened to move the natural frequency of the combo closer to average frequency being imparted to it.
That sounds entirely plausible. In the (not comprehensive) tests that we made on the day and I have made afterwards, there is definitely something going on. In all cases, the sound has been improved, so more comfortable/consistent laser focussing, combined with smoother rotational speed regulation, are probably contributing factors either directly or in the reduction in power supply demand spikes they cause.
I certainly heard the improvement gained (which was consistent and repeatable) by using Mike's CD mat with either your Ayre or his Isis - and it wasn't imagined! :nono:
Marco.
MikeMusic
30-12-2013, 09:43
Are you sure, how does one assess the price?
You compares and you decides
The Statmat was comparable to a (minor ?) kit upgrade
I think there are some interesting (subjective) experiments that could be easily tried. I could easily make a mat from three different materials for trial - a polypropylene, a card, an acrylic (I do have some very thin carbon fibre but it was very expensive and I don't have much left). I'm not personally that interested in CD replay, so I could send them to Marco, perhaps he could compare with friends?
I think thin is mandatory for CD mechanisms to accommodate them without creating more problems (e.g. mis-centering) than they are intended to cure.
If you could make a very thin disc in polycarbonate or acrylic (CF may well be the ultimate, but I appreciate the cost) I'd be very interested in trialling it, Mark.
If the laser focusing system was unable to react fast enough I would expect C1 and C2 error to climb substantially and the player may produce a disc read error, it would have to be pretty severe for that to happen though as the CIRC is very robust. However, the output from the photodiode is a sinusoidal EFM signal (not digital it has to be converted) and maybe vibration in the disc causes a jitter component to be introduced which could account any sonic differences....but then I would have thought the error correction schemes in place would correct for this and the output is buffered and clocked out anyhow...hmmmm :scratch:
MikeMusic
30-12-2013, 14:27
I think thin is mandatory for CD mechanisms to accommodate them without creating more problems (e.g. mis-centering) than they are intended to cure.
If you could make a very thin disc in polycarbonate or acrylic (CF may well be the ultimate, but I appreciate the cost) I'd be very interested in trialling it, Mark.
Forgot to say I find the Marigo sometimes essential when playing CDr.
Thinner CD ?
Forgot to say I find the Marigo sometimes essential when playing CDr.
Thinner CD ?
Certainly lower reflectivity...I think the thickness is the same.
Haselsh1
30-12-2013, 14:49
I remember from around thirty years ago folks saying that the use of two discs stabilised the whole spinning system by increasing the rotational mass of the system as a whole but that the second layer of aluminium altered the error correction caused by holes in the played disc so that the laser then reflected off the second disc. I of course do not know whether any of this held any truth or was just a case of very wishful thinking but there seemed to be a possibility that it could be very do-able.
During trials at my then friends hi-fi shop, the two disc system certainly did bring about a significant change in the sound of the then Yamaha CD players.
MikeMusic
30-12-2013, 14:58
Certainly lower reflectivity...I think the thickness is the same.
Perhaps this is all to do with reflectivity....
I don't pretend to be tech savvy. Passing interest in the tech side
I think there are some interesting (subjective) experiments that could be easily tried. I could easily make a mat from three different materials for trial - a polypropylene, a card, an acrylic (I do have some very thin carbon fibre but it was very expensive and I don't have much left). I'm not personally that interested in CD replay, so I could send them to Marco, perhaps he could compare with friends?
Nice one, Mark. I'd defo be up for that - and if I get some friends round, we can do it blind. All we'd have to do is listen downstairs on the Celestion 66s, whilst someone upstairs (where the system and CDP are) swaps the mats over :)
Marco.
Jolly good - I'll sort it out next week when I am at work. I also have the polypropylene in a number of colours so can also try that (black, green, purple, silvery).
Cool - look forward to it, mate! :cool:
Marco.
In the meantime, I'm going to have a look in some stacks of CDRs or DVD-Rs I've got and see what dooberies they come with in the packaging. Certainly they have just the branded paper sheet on top, hehe.. !
Oh, my Metalheadz CD (in a metal film-can type thing) has foam rubber matts inbetween the CDs to stop them scratching.
Once upon a time, sticking two CDs into my old Meridian MCD made it work for longer - sound would break up as the track went on. Turned out to be dirty brushes on the spindle motor which I cleaned by de-soldering it and directly running it very fast from a 9V battery each direction. The extra angular momentum must have helped there..
Haselsh1
31-12-2013, 05:18
The flywheel effect can do some amazing things and has indeed done so throughout history. Is was amazing how two CD's changed the sound of the Yamaha CDX1.
The only problem with flywheel theory, with regard to CD players, is that a CD is not supposed to spin at a consistent speed - entirely the opposite in fact. A CD is read from the inside to the outside and is replayed at a linear velocity, so the speed of the disk is being continually altered during playback - continually slowing down as the disk play progresses and the diameter of the replay point increases.
But that's a gradual speed change which the flywheel effect is unlikely to bother. It's short term rotational jitter that might benefit.
The only problem I can think of is the fast changes in speed while seeking tracks.
I used the John Player mat - while i could detect some improvement in the sound, I found the CD player wheezing and issuing fairly obvious signals of mechanical distress ! Needless to say, I stopped soon after.
Although I'm not a CD man as such, I have read a lot about CD dampers over the years. The bottom line is that there is no clear technical reason how they may work - but the theories put forward I would summarise thus:
1/Increased mass improves flywheel effect = as I have just written above, this idea doesn't really make sense with regard to CD - the speed the CD rotates at in heavily servo governed and sudden accelerations and decelerations are often required - increased inertia will inhibit these aspects. In the past I did make an aluminium disk for a friend and the increased mass was too much for his player.
2/ Damping = the problem with this is that a CD is already pretty well damped. In addition, it is entirely different to a record and the needs of one do not apply to the other, a CD is read with no physical contact so vibration is not generated as when a stylus tracks a groove. There is vibration present though - many CD's are not made terribly concentric and because of the high speed at which they rotate a lot of vibration can be created. However, damping the disk will not change that.
3/ Light related issues; reflection, bleed, refraction, ingress etc = this,for me, is an interesting one. If you hold a CD up to a strong light you can clearly see through it (to a point). The print layer on the back is quite thin as is the metallised reflective layer. Not only can you see differences in the density of the ink application but you can often see many spots (pin pricks) of light where there are faults in the metallised layer. In addition, by the nature of transparent plastics, an element of light will be transmitted laterally through the disk and be present at the edge (how much of an issue that is is an altogether different matter). For this reason some manufacturers paint the inside of the CD compartments with non reflective paints (Naim, Meridian etc.) and some actively light the CD with blue, or green, light (depending on the belief of the particular manufacturer).
But that's a gradual speed change which the flywheel effect is unlikely to bother. It's short term rotational jitter that might benefit.
The only problem I can think of is the fast changes in speed while seeking tracks.
But when jumping between tracks, or reading the TOC, the accelerations are instant and profound. Remember, the only reason a CD player knows where a track is located is because of the info in the TOC.
To make any appreciable difference to the flywheel effect the stabiliser would have to be a similar, or preferably greater, weight than the disk itself. I made such an item and it clearly confused the hell out of the control servos. In addition, it won't actually reduce vibration, if the disk is eccentric it will still be - but now with added inertia.
I think it is worth noting that pretty much all commercial CD mats (still) on the market are low mass designs.
----------------------------
On (dodgy pun alert) reflection..., I'm not aware of any CD mats that have concentrated mass at the periphery; I could see how I could fabricate something to test the concept.
The flywheel effect is a red herring IMO, the last thing you need is more inertia in the disk. There is a buffer fill control loop in operation to govern the speed of the disk, more inertia will upset the operation of the loop.
That is my feeling.
The earlier mention of reduced jitter is a bit confusing also I think. Jitter, as it is known with regard to CD, is a clock timing issue. The reading of the CD is not directly associated with playback in the same way as a record is.
Although jitter is not directly related to playback, it manifests as time-domain noise that can percolate around the system, depending on how stiff the power supplies are.
Umm... and how does that statement support your earlier comment regarding flywheel effect.... (or are you just agreeing that it is not relevant)?
It neither supports nor denies a relationship. I'm not offering reasons, just thought experiments. I do agree with the three areas of potential improvement you listed earlier, where the reasons could lie with all three or any combination thereof.
Haselsh1
31-12-2013, 13:43
I think it is worth noting that pretty much all commercial CD mats (still) on the market are low mass designs.
----------------------------
On (dodgy pun alert) reflection..., I'm not aware of any CD mats that have concentrated mass at the periphery; I could see how I could fabricate something to test the concept.
If this is the case, and I am not doubting it, then all of the improvements that we so clearly hear are related to errors involved in reading the disc due to the holes we can see in the media. This being so, a second disc would only act as a delayed laser reflector wouldn't it...? At least the optical sensor would pick up something rather than nothing.
Well, there is also the opacity of the disk or the reflective layer to consider. The actual focal length of the lens is too short for the laser to actually read anything from a secondary loaded disk, but I suppose that reflected light may be an issue - somehow (though not through a clearly recognised mechanism that I am aware of).
To be honest, pure theory does not support the basis of any difference existing by adding anything to a CD. If errors in the reading process exist they are not in the same way they exist when playing a record. Drop outs in information can occur in a CD but they will not be continual and they will not modulate the output in the same way a record does. In the end the CD player is either reading information or it is not, there isn't a mechanism by which the information can be read but in a distorted manner.
Haselsh1
31-12-2013, 15:00
I understand but if a CD player does not read any data due to a hole in the media then it simply makes up a number to fit does it not...? This is what error correction is after all. If this is the case then this introduces measurable errors into the replay system some of which could and would be audible.
I understand but if a CD player does not read any data due to a hole in the media then it simply makes up a number to fit does it not...? This is what error correction is after all. If this is the case then this introduces measurable errors into the replay system some of which could and would be audible.
It will only interpolate if the CIRC is inadequate to correct the error. Holes are not a problem in themselves CIRC handles them well enough.
Yeah, I accept all of that. But if you look for these inclusions in the reflective layer you will see they are relatively few and vary from disk to disk (sometime only one or two). This means that if they are effecting sound quality it would only be very occasionally and for only a very small fraction of a second - not in a continual manner as may give rise to subjective comment like 'smoother sound' or 'increased ambience' etc.
In addition, once these flaws exist in the disc there is no way of reinventing them, they cannot be recovered. Whatever you back the CD with it cannot put this missing information back.
clarkey555
31-12-2013, 16:29
Are you sure, how does one assess the price?
If something was free and made a considerable sound improvement but then someone took it away and charged you for it, would it suddenly be worth the amount they were asking because the sound improvement? One should judge price on the cost to make something.
The cost per/sound is how the con-artist side of Hifi Foo works! Cheap ways to improve sound should remain cheap or ways to do things cheaper should be passed on to the consumer. Instead what we get is an increase in price no matter what.. and unfortunately it's encouraged by the people who buy.
Usually in a pack of CD-Rs there is a thin polycarbonate disc at the top - anyone tried that? Sometimes a soft 'white foam' disc that kind of grips to the CDRs. The two combined might give a good vibration reduction result.
Looking at these mats on ebay, they look like they cost about £1 to get made but you have to probably pay for 100 of them. Still, at $25 a pop, that's a probable $18 profit on each after packaging, time cost and ebay fees. So you get $1800 return on your $100 outlay!
Now THAT certainly has a good sound to it !
Cut something for free at home too - just need a fixed cutter and something that goes round like a turntable..
Hey Ho, I guess it's easier to click and spend!
well said nat agree 100%:interesting:
It's all very well people saying you should judge a product on what it costs to make - but rarely are the actual costs taken in to account. What people usually mean is the raw cost of the material - what they don't factor in is;
1/ wages
2/ insurance
3/ power & heating costs
4/ packaging
5/ marketing
6/ R & D
7/ Pension contributions
To name just a few.
Also, people rarely grasp the economies, or otherwise, of material purchase. If you look at Corian (for example), whilst you can sometimes buy off cuts on eBay for a few pounds you can only buy larger pieces by the sheet (£160+ depending on colour etc.) and even then only if you have an account.
When I made my super-tweeters I used 12mm glass effect acrylic and Corian. Someone subsequently contacted me and asked me to 'knock him some up'. Now I made mine from off cuts I happened to have. I didn't have sufficient black Corian for another pair or 12mm acrylic. A sheet of the acrylic is about £18 plus shipping and the Corian considerably more.
Haselsh1
31-12-2013, 18:11
Yeah, I accept all of that. But if you look for these inclusions in the reflective layer you will see they are relatively few and vary from disk to disk (sometime only one or two). This means that if they are effecting sound quality it would only be very occasionally and for only a very small fraction of a second - not in a continual manner as may give rise to subjective comment like 'smoother sound' or 'increased ambience' etc.
In addition, once these flaws exist in the disc there is no way of reinventing them, they cannot be recovered. Whatever you back the CD with it cannot put this missing information back.
I agree entirely
It sounds as though I am compiling a list of why CD mats cannot work, but that isn't my intention at all. I have heard subjective differences using a mat - but I'm interested in discerning how these differences may occur, by what mechanism and if improvements can be achieved. The advantage is that such mats are relatively easily constructed and don't use a lot of material - so I will make a bunch of options and we can take it from there - perhaps extrapolate a hypothesis from the subjective findings.
there isn't a mechanism by which the information can be read but in a distorted manner.
I would argue that there is. Jitter in the waveform is time-domain noise. The data may be perfectly recovered, but it carries noise that may never be completely eliminated despite the Schmitt triggers and re-clocking that occur later. It can also end up in and infect the power supply rails.
But I was referring to reading data from the disc - not a mechanism that may take place after that event. I'm not saying that the data cannot be corrupted - I am specifically referring to the laser and disc element (isn't that what this thread is about?).
I think you misunderstand, Mark. I am referring to the read process causing more jitter than necessary (otherwise I can't see how a mat could make any difference). I'm not talking about corrupt data as that is gross reconstruction error and we are discussing something more subtle than that, carried on the data waveform.
Haselsh1
01-01-2014, 11:10
I think you misunderstand, Mark. I am referring to the read process causing more jitter than necessary (otherwise I can't see how a mat could make any difference). I'm not talking about corrupt data as that is gross reconstruction error and we are discussing something more subtle than that, carried on the data waveform.
We are indeed talking about something incredibly subtle but there is clearly and audible difference with two CD's or a mat and it would be nice to get to the bottom of what is causing this difference. I can only go with my memories of thirty years ago and things get a bit distorted after such a long time but I remember using a Yamaha CD1 with two CD's and there was clearly an audible difference.
In addition, it won't actually reduce vibration, if the disk is eccentric it will still be - but now with added inertia.
That's not really true. Now the eccentricity of the CD would have to move more mass and so the vibration would be less. Averaged out between the mat and CD (assuming there was some kind of coupling and the mat was perfectly centralised), the percentage mass that was now off centre would be reduced.
Anyway, not many discs are eccentric themselves, only the silvering is eccentric but the pits are in the polycarbonate and the silvering essentially for reflection (Is that correct?).
Vibration frequency is a function of mass, so the change in mass changes the frequency. I'm talking up and down vibration here in this sentence, not eccentric vibration as above.
If you play a CD with the case removed, there's still a good deal of vibration going on in the average player. So damping is a factor I feel.
I think there is another area where it could be improving things - simply that the now thicker disc is being clamped better by the normally loose and poor clamping mechanisms on most draw players.
The magnetic clamps in many players are eccentric themselves and have a fair weight to them relative to the disc. The plastic discs that contain the magnet are pretty loose and rarely centre exactly the same each time. Just pretty cheap, massed produced draw mechanisms essentially..
Sadly, it's rare to find an over-engineered player that has a bespoke or improved draw mech. Even the more expensive ones still use standard parts. Of course there is VRDS but simpler to go the whole top-loader route.
It's all very well people saying you should judge a product on what it costs to make - but rarely are the actual costs taken in to account. What people usually mean is the raw cost of the material - what they don't factor in is;
1/ wages
2/ insurance
3/ power & heating costs
4/ packaging
5/ marketing
6/ R & D
7/ Pension contributions
To name just a few.
Also, people rarely grasp the economies, or otherwise, of material purchase. If you look at Corian (for example), whilst you can sometimes buy off cuts on eBay for a few pounds you can only buy larger pieces by the sheet (£160+ depending on colour etc.) and even then only if you have an account.
When I made my super-tweeters I used 12mm glass effect acrylic and Corian. Someone subsequently contacted me and asked me to 'knock him some up'. Now I made mine from off cuts I happened to have. I didn't have sufficient black Corian for another pair or 12mm acrylic. A sheet of the acrylic is about £18 plus shipping and the Corian considerably more.
Hmm, I think you're over-aggrandising these mats! At least from links I've seen these are ebay only items.
So, for some bloke selling a mat only available on Bbay and the packaging is a standard CD case with a printed sleeve, lets go through those considerations:
1/ wages - Huh? Whatever the profit is..
2/ insurance - Huh?
3/ power & heating costs - Huh? Doing it at home..
4/ packaging - CD case + print out (I actually included that estimate in my post above)
5/ marketing - Err... It's ebay!! Marketing is the search term and listing with a good photo and good listing blurb. People trawling ebay will find them anyway. Put them out there and see what happens whilst you go to work during the day.
6/ R & D - Err, that it's a circle? Heard about them before, seen them for sale elsewhere, they're easy to make, we all know what the dimensions should be - let people make up their own minds (even call their bluff with money back guarantee! Let them feel stupid that they can't hear a difference if you acting so confidently that there is..)
7/ Pension contributions - Hahaha!
Regarding material costs, you search the internet and see what services are on offer and at what price. There are companies that laser cut plastic, card, paper, rubbers, foams - all sorts of materials. You choose a common enough material with enough of the properties you fancy and you get a run of 100 cut for maybe £50 to £100 depending on material, a simple 5" circle with the centre cut.
If you don't find anything cheap then you're not motivated to make the CD mats and so no-one finds them on ebay, no-one talks about the cheap tweak and we don't have this conversation. The fact that we are says to me that someone is making them pretty cheap (else wouldn't bother) and selling them at a price which both makes them very good percentage mark-up and is beer money to most audiophiles. Win win... (unless it's miserly, cheapskate me who sees the listing - would rather get my 100 made, sell 99 and keep £900 profit myself! Hey maybe it's me selling some? hehe . It's not.)
Ah, I wasn't really referring to CD mats - more a general point.
I've not looked on eBay for CD mats - is that what you were referring to (because I wasn't)?
OK, as promised, I have made the trial mats and if Marco (and anyone else) is still up for trying them I will post them out on Monday.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/Hi-Fi/52EDB872-E338-4E2D-834B-5C0B7EB5B2CE_zpsr4zvassa.jpg (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/markemark_2006/media/Hi-Fi/52EDB872-E338-4E2D-834B-5C0B7EB5B2CE_zpsr4zvassa.jpg.html)
They are all made from polypropylene which is smooth on one side and slightly textured on the other. In theory the plastic is all 0.8mm thick, but the black feels significantly stiffer. The one at the top of the picture, that looks like a CD is made from 2mm polycarbonate. A recess has been etched in to it for the clamp and the front face is covered in a silver adhesive vinyl so that it isn't completely transparent.
MikeMusic
03-01-2014, 16:03
OK, as promised, I have made the trial mats and if Marco (and anyone else) is still up for trying them I will post them out on Monday.
They are all made from polypropylene which is smooth on one side and slightly textured on the other. In theory the plastic is all 0.8mm thick, but the black feels significantly stiffer. The one at the top of the picture, that looks like a CD is made from 2mm polycarbonate. A recess has been etched in to it for the clamp and the front face is covered in a silver adhesive vinyl so that it isn't completely transparent.
I'm happy to compare them to the ones I have
sq225917
03-01-2014, 18:39
You could pull my leg and I might lean towards the idea that added mass lowers the resonant frequency of the disc and as such can bring excessive wobble under control making the servo'c life easier. But I think all other ideas are utterly fanciful with zero basis is real science.
OK, as promised, I have made the trial mats and if Marco (and anyone else) is still up for trying them I will post them out on Monday.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/Hi-Fi/52EDB872-E338-4E2D-834B-5C0B7EB5B2CE_zpsr4zvassa.jpg (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/markemark_2006/media/Hi-Fi/52EDB872-E338-4E2D-834B-5C0B7EB5B2CE_zpsr4zvassa.jpg.html)
They are all made from polypropylene which is smooth on one side and slightly textured on the other. In theory the plastic is all 0.8mm thick, but the black feels significantly stiffer. The one at the top of the picture, that looks like a CD is made from 2mm polycarbonate. A recess has been etched in to it for the clamp and the front face is covered in a silver adhesive vinyl so that it isn't completely transparent.
Nice one, Mark - happy to try these out. Do you still have my address?
I've not noticed any benefit with mats on my CDP, so far (as it has a very well-engineered 'old school' transport mech), but you never know! :)
Marco.
Ah, I wasn't really referring to CD mats - more a general point.
I've not looked on eBay for CD mats - is that what you were referring to (because I wasn't)?
Oh, yes I was referring to the ones being tried that started the thread - easy to have made in bulk and sell on at good profit via ebay (same with many turntable mats, in fact many commercial ones too with even higher mark-up to cost. I've priced up the Acromat for example at about £2 each in a nice colour but without the depression for the label, black is much cheaper too (yet FunkFirm have ditched the colours and now only do black.. maximising profits I guess). As an aside on that, I've no clue how they can viably push patent rights on the acromat as even their patent is quite clearly a whole system and the mat itself part of the patented system (because under normal patent guidelines you can't patent a thing that already exists - standard turntable mat - with the only difference being the material it is made of especially if that material is readily available. Different if you patent the material or the mat is a system of itself like Sony's old oil-filled ones).
Hi Marco, I think I have your adress on the system at work, will have to check.
But if you haven't heard mats make any difference in your system perhaps I should send them to someone else?
I've now received the Marigo 3-D Stabilizer Series 2 mat (thanks, Mike). Trials with my old AT 674 CD Stabilizer were inconclusive as I couldn't reliably tell whether the mat made any difference at all.
The Marigo is different, as Mike, Marco and I heard a couple of weeks ago when we were surprised that his super-duper Marigo brought the sound of Mike's Isis and my Ayre closer together. This one is the model down from Mike's, but I'm hearing the spatial cues more clearly in the Ayre, the things that his Isis did so well, while it retains the detail and attack that I so like about the Ayre. For me, it brings forward the air and space and helps to shape instruments within that acoustic. It's a significant improvement and I'm happy even if the mechanism by which it works is a mystery.
Hi Marco, I think I have your adress on the system at work, will have to check.
But if you haven't heard mats make any difference in your system perhaps I should send them to someone else?
S'up to you, dude. I heard a distinct improvement with the Marigo mat on Martin's Ayre and Mike's Isis, but I've yet to hear my Sony X-777ES improved by such an item.
You could argue that makes it more of a challenge for the mats to provide a sonic improvement, and coupled with my predisposition for considering that they're unlikely to provide an improvement, makes me the ideal candidate to offer a thorough and unbiased appraisal! ;)
If you need my addy, PM me :)
Marco.
I'll send it Monday - will be a bit of fun.
Oh, I have now had a look on eBay and see you can buy carbon fibre ones for about £30 - which seems pretty reasonable to me.
I'll send it Monday - will be a bit of fun.
Excellent - I'll let you know when they arrive :)
Marco.
I think my AT-674 stabilizer may be carbon fibre, it's long been out of production. In any case, it makes no difference that I can hear.
This is the only text I could find, quoted from the designer Ron Hedrich, on how his Marigo mats work. I make no comment save that it would be quite hard to replicate one of these with simple tools.
The mat is a carbon fiber Kevlar matrix approximately 0.017" thick and compatible with almost all transport mechanisms. The composition guarantees that the mat will stay flat. Hedrich claims that even after you flex it like a deck of cards, it will resume its perfectly flat shape.
The mat’s woven laminated structure contains a small amount of superfine silver strand in a proprietary array. When rotated at high rpm, this creates a shielding effect around the sensitive digital equipment in the transport mechanism, reducing corruption and loss of information due to EMI/RFI contamination.
The coatings on the two sides of the mat (green and gold for the Signature, darker green and black for the v2) are strictly for performance. While they were formerly silk-screened onto the Orpheus Crossbow mat, they are now hand-applied in small batches. Despite the amount of time and rejects this process entails, hand application produces a more effective mat.
The mat’s green side, only placed against a disc when playing DVD-Video, absorbs stray laser light. While turning this green surface away from a CD/SACD/DVD-A goes against the conventional wisdom, it allows the mat’s other side, which offers anti-static and EMI absorbing properties, to rest against the disc’s surface. The v2’s black underside has anti-static properties, while the Signature’s gold color underside (not real gold, and scratchable to boot) provides superior anti-static properties as well as what Ron terms "an extremely effective shield for the transport’s read mechanism."
I think my AT-674 stabilizer may be carbon fibre, it's long been out of production. In any case, it makes no difference that I can hear.
The AT is aluminium.
I have to tell you, all this Marigo talk of static dissipation and shielding sounds like seven sheets of sh*t - what static charge and shielding from what - cosmic rays? Even if there is a static charge, what's it supposed to be doing that is negative. After all, the disc is being read by a non contact laser, even if you charged it up first with a van der graaff generator and then beamed radio waves directly at it, the laser would still be able to read it. Spinning a disc doesn't improve shielding, it's not even grounded! You can't create a shielding field around delicate electronics by spinning a disc - well, perhaps you can in Star Trek. It really is the worst kind of pseudo scientific nonsense.
Thanks for the info. I think we can safely eliminate aluminum, then.
As for Marigo, none of it makes sense and I do not defend it. What I can say is that it works remarkably effectively.
! You can't create a shielding field around delicate electronics by spinning a disc - well, perhaps you can in Star Trek. .
lol - you almost certainly could in Star Trek: The Next Generation but you would need to reverse the polarity and modify the main deflector dish. It would take about two hours; in the meantime you cut to the sub plot which is very dull and involves Diana Troy. In original Star Trek Kirk would just have a fight and cop off with an alien bird and sort it out that way.
Ok, settle down at the back! :lol:
We can all find some humour in Marigo's statement. The question remains: how do they work so well?
jandl100
06-01-2014, 07:26
I have 3 "CD mats".
An AT674 steel mat
An A.R.T graphite mat
A masTER MAT, a rather flexible 2 layer hybrid, the top layer being a bit lossy, the bottom layer being green plastic.
I also used to own a SID.
Both the ART and the masTER MAT are quite thick and weighty beasts, similar in thickness to a CD. The ART is rigid, the masTER MAT is fairly flexible.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/450x300q90/829/ngeb.jpg
These are long unused as ime the majority of CDPs I have owned simply won't accept them.
But, inspired by this thread, I tried them in my new Pioneer disc spinner used as a transport, and they all work! Oh joy. So I had a comparative sesh last night.
3 of the 4 make no difference to the sound that I can hear. (The SID was useless, from memory).
The masTER MAT, I am convinced, delivers a more solid and purposeful sound, noticeably better transient resolution and speed, and superior image focus. And I will from now on use it. :)
From the online reviews I have read, the efficacy of the masTER MAT is very similar indeed to the claimed benefits of the Marigo mats.
jandl100
06-01-2014, 08:46
:oops: I couldn't resist
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121248653193?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
:D
One benefit that the CF mat may have is that it is very opaque and very low mass - but the £30 eBay ones will also possess these qualities - worth trying I think (they have nothing to do with me).
A friend has the old AT one (it's thin aluminium painted mat black); and he hears a small difference when he uses it.
jandl100
08-01-2014, 12:13
:oops: I couldn't resist
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121248653193?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
:D
The Marigo mat arrived today.
Sigh.
What's happening here?
Vibrancy, presence, transient rez and speed, dynamic impact - all improved a lot over a bare CD and even a fair bit over my masTER MAT - it's as if a glass ceiling has been removed from dynamic headroom.
Very strange.
The Marigo mat arrived today.
Sigh.
What's happening here?
Vibrancy, presence, transient rez and speed, dynamic impact - all improved a lot over a bare CD and even a fair bit over my masTER MAT - it's as if a glass ceiling has been removed from dynamic headroom.
Very strange.
:popcorn:
Vibrancy, presence, transient rez and speed, dynamic impact - all improved a lot over a bare CD and even a fair bit over my masTER MAT - it's as if a glass ceiling has been removed from dynamic headroom.
I'm getting the same improvements from mine, Jerry. Can't explain it either, but I like what it does.
MikeMusic
08-01-2014, 12:33
The Marigo mat arrived today.
Sigh.
What's happening here?
Vibrancy, presence, transient rez and speed, dynamic impact - all improved a lot over a bare CD and even a fair bit over my masTER MAT - it's as if a glass ceiling has been removed from dynamic headroom.
Very strange.
Bonkers, but I'll take the improvements
:)
I like the Marigo I bought from Mike so much that I've ordered the latest Ultima.
MikeMusic
08-01-2014, 12:52
I like the Marigo I bought from Mike so much that I've ordered the latest Ultima.
Interested to see how the Signature compares...
jandl100
08-01-2014, 18:25
I'm getting the same improvements from mine, Jerry. Can't explain it either, but I like what it does.
Ah, interesting.
Have you posted your findings elsewhere, or were you going to keep them to yourself? ;)
I'll wait for the Ultima to arrive and can then compare them. I'm sure a write-up will cause endless mirth for those who won't even have heard what they can do ;)
I'll wait for the Ultima to arrive and can then compare them. I'm sure a write-up will cause endless mirth for those who won't even have heard what they can do ;)
Is it your belief that what you have heard as an "improvement" will be heard the same by each and every person in every CD player, system, home? If it isn't then why should AN Other do much else except smile.
The mats that Mark sent me have arrived [thanks, Mark], so we'll see what (if anything) they do! :)
Marco.
Is it your belief that what you have heard as an "improvement" will be heard the same by each and every person in every CD player, system, home? If it isn't then why should AN Other do much else except smile.
If this forum has any value at all, then it is in relating our experiences to others so that they may evaluate them for their own potential use. Some will try them out, some will add to the pool of knowledge by relating their own experience, some will hear no change. Each opinion is valid except for those who have no experience to add. Remember, it's a subjective forum.
If this forum has any value at all, then it is in relating our experiences to others so that they may evaluate them for their own potential use. Some will try them out, some will add to the pool of knowledge by relating their own experience, some will hear no change. Each opinion is valid except for those who have no experience to add. Remember, it's a subjective forum.
You seem to side step my question but were willing to prejudge others reactions so readily. I await the variety of reactions to CD mats with interest. I have a spare CD mechanism for my CD player - yippee.
I'll wait for the Ultima to arrive and can then compare them. I'm sure a write-up will cause endless mirth for those who won't even have heard what they can do ;)
Not from this poster you will not Martin, l am a believer in tweaks like this, having already used Statmats to good effect.:sofa:
There are tweaks that have no rational basis and cost a fortune and tweaks, like this one, with no rational basis but cost pennies. The latter I am willing to try if I have the time and can be bothered.
but were willing to prejudge others reactions so readily
Don't be ridiculous. There have been many negative comments about CD mats here and elsewhere already. I was being humorous.
Don't be ridiculous. There have been many negative comments about CD mats here and elsewhere already. I was being humorous.
Ha Ha
Well, that was an unfortunately rather quick experiment... I just sat down to carry out the tests on the CD mats Mark sent me to try, and my Sony CDP resolutely refuses to accept them, simply spitting them out (and the partnering CD) in no uncertain terms!
There is obviously little room inside the CD mechanism itself (or its aperture) to accept 'foreign objects', such as CD mats, and/or perhaps there exists a clamping mechanism that doesn't facilitate the use of such items. It would be interesting to see if there are any pictures on the Internet of the innards of the mechanism for the X-777ES, which might explain what's going on.
The only mat I'd tried previously was the Ringmat Developments 'CD Statmat', as shown here: http://www.ringmat.com/products/statmat.htm which is thinner than paper, and so was able to be used, although like I said, without success, in terms of any sonic gains obtained. From memory, if anything, it made things sound worse.
Hey, it's a good job that I wasn't tempted to invest in a Marigo, otherwise it'd have been money down the drain!! Not to worry, the funds saved will be spent instead on more CDs! ;)
Anyway, unless Mark wants me to send them onto someone else to try, I shall take the mats round to the systems belonging to a few of my friends, and see whether I get any more joy there, and if so, I shall report back with my findings.
Marco.
I've just received both a Marigo Ultima and a JohnBlue for playing with, so I'll start listening tonight compared with my older Marigo Evolution v2.
Marco: the Marigos are ultra-thin and it's hard to believe that your CDP would even notice them. How thick approximately are the discs you've been trying?
Hmm..it might be that the hole in the centre of the mats I made is a little too exact in its size. The thinnest one is something like 0.7mm thick - so not very thick at all.
Hi Martin,
Mark would be able to comment more accurately in that respect than me, but I'd say roughly half the thickness of a CD, with one of them a bit thicker than a CD.
There's no doubt that the mechanism in the Sony doesn't want any 'assistance' from superfluous items, and nor I suspect does it require any, in order to perform at its maximum potential, although assessing the truth of the latter may be somewhat problematic...
For reference, this is the player in question:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1710/qkvh.jpg
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1410/wvvy.jpg
It's hard to find any images on the 'net that show the transport mechanism in more detail, in order to ascertain what is impeding the use of a CD mat.
Marco.
The thinnest one is something like 0.7mm thick - so not very thick at all.
Much thicker than the Marigos, then. They are floppy and almost translucent (the newest one even more so).
jandl100
09-01-2014, 17:33
Yep, I'm not that surprised Marco. As I said on my 1st post in this thread ....
I have 3 "CD mats".
..... These are long unused as ime the majority of CDPs I have owned simply won't accept them.
IME many players won't accept any extra thickness on top of a regular CD.
Yup, Jerry, that seems to be the case. With my CDP, any mat used would have to be no thicker than the Statmat, which itself is not much thicker than the cellophane wrapping, covering the cases of new CDs. We're talking 'wafer-thin' here!
Anything thicker than that is simply a no-no.
Marco.
Incidentally, Jerry, if in the course of your box-swapping, you come across the opportunity to try an X-777ES, I'd recommend giving one a go.
Much of the magic I get, of course, comes from the Audiocom mods, and most importantly the effect of the partnering DAS-R1 DAC, which uses a totally different chipset (TDA-1541 S1s), from that featured in the X-777ES.
However, the latter is still a peach of a design and harks from an era when Sony were building some of the finest CD players known to man - and with the likes of the X-777ES, that remains the case to this day! :)
Marco.
Well, a mat that is as thin as 0.2mm (or thinner) won't be adding any appreciable mass to the rotation and it won't be damping either.
Well, a mat that is as thin as 0.2mm (or thinner) won't be adding any appreciable mass to the rotation and it won't be damping either.
Agreed. I'm beginning to think that it's a completely different mechanism at work.
I would suggest light being diffracted from the back of the CD perhaps. Someone should try a black disc of paper
MikeMusic
10-01-2014, 10:39
I would suggest light being diffracted from the back of the CD perhaps. Someone should try a black disc of paper
I have a piece of black plastic that came with some CDrs
could also cut up some black paper
MikeMusic
10-01-2014, 11:08
Give it a go!
I shall, on Sunday all being well
An interesting idea. Many CD's are opaque, place a small LED torch on the printed side and see if any light is visible on the other... you could then try a mat with a CD that has heavy or a uniform color printed on one side and does not let any light through against one that does...OK it will be very subjective but maybe worth comparing the two to see if there's any effect...
It's hard to find any images on the 'net that show the transport mechanism in more detail, in order to ascertain what is impeding the use of a CD mat.
Marco.
Here's an exploded view linked to from this page http://x777es.homestead.com/ServiceManuallDownload.html
http://x777es.homestead.com/ServiceManual-5-p41-larger.JPG
Thanks, Nat. I haven't seen that before :)
Marco.
jandl100
11-01-2014, 06:42
Incidentally, Jerry, if in the course of your box-swapping, you come across the opportunity to try an X-777ES, I'd recommend giving one a go.
Much of the magic I get, of course, comes from the Audiocom mods, and most importantly the effect of the partnering DAS-R1 DAC, which uses a totally different chipset (TDA-1541 S1s), from that featured in the X-777ES.
However, the latter is still a peach of a design and harks from an era when Sony were building some of the finest CD players known to man - and with the likes of the X-777ES, that remains the case to this day! :)
Marco.
Hi Marco
No, I haven't tried a Sony 777ES - I used to own a 555ESD, I think it was. Tbh, it was bland and boring! :zzz:
Well put together, though, so Audiocomming (new verb?) may have brought it to life. I sold it on to Haden Boardman, iirc - he seemed pleased enough with it.
My current CD plaything is a Pioneer DVD player as transport as suggested by Neil yomanze (absolutely top reccie, Neil :thumbsup:) and a Jolida FX3 DAC, augmented by a pair of Siemens 12AX7 valves. It's def one of the best, and one of the cheapest, serious CD playback sources I have heard. :) I've an AQ Eagle Eye digital cable on its way that I am assured will further raise the bar.
An additional benefit of the Pioneer DVD player is that it seems to accept any and all additional mats on top of a CD!
I've been listening to these mats for a couple of evenings now, comparing them laboriously using the same tracks to try and get a handle on what they do. My overall conclusion is that they do different things and sometimes they do nothing, although there is a trend and I have formed a personal ranking order.
Player: Ayre C5xe MP SACD player with Pioneer drawer loading mech.
AT674 Stabilizer
Rigid aluminium mat.
Let's get this much older mat out of the way first. In all my listening, it contributes little to nothing that I can reliably hear. I do remember that it was more positive in my old Pioneer PD-91 CD player when I used to use the mat regularly, but it doesn't do anything worthwhile in the Ayre.
JohnBlue CD Mat
Thin, floppy 'seaweed/moss' mat.
This mat does some interesting things, mostly in the way of spaciousness and dimensionality. The soundstage is wider and deeper and there is more air around the instruments. It is also the only mat which makes an audible difference with the HFN Test CD -70dB test, where the music is mastered at an incredibly low level, requiring volume to be way up and severely testing the DAC's ability to resolve the music with just some least significant bits. The mat brought out a little more of the music, especially when resolving cymbals into a sound something akin to the real thing, rather than a tizzy noise. On most music, the JohnBlue does something positive for the sound. It seems most effective with some much older CDs, for instance Joe Jackson Body & Soul which was among the first batch of CDs I bought.
Marigo 3-D Stabilizer Series 2 Mat
Thin rigid mat with nine triangular cut-outs.
This mat seems to love incisive discs with lots of detail, where it enhances that detail and brings it forward while also improving spacial cues. It improves the overall sound much in the same way as an upgraded player. For pretty much all music it does at least something to enhance the sound and for some CDs it does a lot more, making the music sound more detailed, more dynamic and more exciting. This is the most incisive of the four mats in the way that it presents music.
Marigo Ultima High Definition Signature Mat
Thin flexible translucent mat with two triangular cut-outs and orientation line.
This mat is confusing and seems to change character with the CD being played. It sounds to have something of the JohnBlue and lesser Marigo rolled into one. The instructions go to pains to state that its orientation is important and to line up the line on the mat perpendicular to the direction of the text on the CD(!) It frequently sounds as good as the Series 2 but never better, and sometimes doesn't improve the experience much at all. I find it the least predictable in terms of what it might do for a given disc.
Conclusions
The best value for money mat is the JohnBlue. It does a lot for enhancing the soundstage and costs peanuts. It may also suit classical music enthusiasts more than the other mats.
The two Marigos are very different in construction and, on balance, I prefer the less expensive of the two, which seems more reliable and enhances many of my favourite discs.
I shall continue listening and swapping to see if anything else comes forward worth noting.
I hope you have been cleaning your CD's each time Martin, have you tried cryo treating them (CD's) as well, as some swear by it (seriously)
I use the marigo in a Teac VRDS-1 and the Longdog DAC, seriously good I have to say.
In the spirit of open mindedness and curiosity I have ordered a SID Sound Improvement Disc (SID) Model 14 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231133849712?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
A £20 coaster is preferable to a £180 one (even if people promise to buy it off you for near to full cost).
Lets see if any difference is detected and take it from there
I used to use a anti static gun to some good effect and also used to clean the discs before I moved away from CD players. I tried the SID mat but was not to effective but this is a good few years ago
I hope you have been cleaning your CD's each time Martin
I have some Auric Illuminator somewhere, but didn't use it on the discs I've been listening to. Too many variables!
jandl100
12-01-2014, 07:51
I have 3 "CD mats"....
The SID was useless ...
In the spirit of open mindedness and curiosity I have ordered a SID Sound Improvement Disc (SID) Model 14 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231133849712?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
A £20 coaster is preferable to a £180 one (even if people promise to buy it off you for near to full cost).
Lets see if any difference is detected and take it from there
:doh: You couldn't make this up - no-one would believe you! :lol:
It looks like it's the first time I'm going to agree with AlanS about anything. :D
:doh: You couldn't make this up - no-one would believe you! :lol:
It looks like it's the first time I'm going to agree with AlanS about anything. :D
If I hear a hint of consistent improvement (not difference) then I'll try the £180 coaster on the understanding it can be returned within xx days if not happy.
I am forming the view that some AoS members who hear something different post a statement that when I read it that seems worthwhile investigating whereas it is an academic statement (yes a difference can be detected with concentration) and in my system it is really not worth the time or expense. I'm saying that because of the 10s, 100s, even 1000s of members who do not post about discovering differences worth mentioning.
In the spirit of open mindedness and curiosity I have ordered a SID Sound Improvement Disc (SID) Model 14
You could have bought a JohnBlue for that price.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/John-Blue-CD-MAT-effectively-upgrade-your-CD-player-/300947751731
Why would you want that over the SID?
mr sneff
12-01-2014, 15:55
Years ago, in the heyday of painting the edges of CDs green, I bought an Audio Technica AT674 CD Stabilizer. The blurb on the label says:
1. Diffused laser reflections from the CD are avoided by the matt black alumite finish, which reduced pick-up read errors.
2. A high level of protection is provided by employing a precision alumite-treated aluminum plate.
3.Controls rotational vibration of the CD, 12.5g is added to the total rotating mass to increase the moment of inertia.
I don't know how true any of that is true (easy enough to verify the 12.5g :)) but when I used it on the Arcam Alpha CD player I had at the time the sound was definitely more spacious and 3 dimensional, even friends who weren't into hifi could appreciate the difference. When I sold the Arcam and upgraded to a Linn Karik the stabilizer had no effect; perhaps the effect is more noticeable with lower quality transports.
Now I use a Pioneer Stable Platter player as a transport, can't see it making a difference with this. If anybody wants to give it a spin I could easily post it in a slimline CD case.
The offer of a loan of my Audio Technica stabilizer is still open, I'm happy to post it to anyone who wants to give it a try :)
Why would you want that over the SID?
Only said because I've heard good things with the JB and it's cheap enough to take a punt on it.
You could have bought a JohnBlue for that price.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/John-Blue-CD-MAT-effectively-upgrade-your-CD-player-/300947751731
Only said because I've heard good things with the JB and it's cheap enough to take a punt on it.
Martin I don't have your huge experience in this field and why do you choose to mention it AFTER I have bought the SID. I cannot unbuy that even if I were to feel the urge to purchase what you enthuse about. TBH the JohnBlue web page was too much of it "is are not raining here also" (unconvincing) - you know when people are OTT in their praise of something. It was an eternity to be delivered also (I dont buy from foreign lands)
The SID arrives tomorrow so we will see what it does in my CD player (if it fits and works)
The SID arrived mid morning yesterday and 2 hours listening ensued.
At one point I thought using the SID increased the perceived volume. Any difference/improvement in the way a track sounded was so subtle it eluded me. I stuck with single singer and supporting music like Tim Buckley. Could not be bothered today, other things to do.
If anything positive comes apparent I'll post again. Otherwise I have a nice green coaster
With what CD player, Alan?
With what CD player, Alan?
AVI Lab series CD Player.
Now you are going to say it's the CD player maybe?
Nope, because I don't know the player or the mat. I was just curious.
The SID arrived mid morning yesterday and 2 hours listening ensued.
At one point I thought using the SID increased the perceived volume. Any difference/improvement in the way a track sounded was so subtle it eluded me. I stuck with single singer and supporting music like Tim Buckley. Could not be bothered today, other things to do.
If anything positive comes apparent I'll post again. Otherwise I have a nice green coaster
Alan - I'm guessing you are even more sceptical about this particular tweak than I am so fair play to you for giving it a go.
Alan - I'm guessing you are even more sceptical about this particular tweak than I am so fair play to you for giving it a go.
Contrary to some members opinions of me I am old enough to recognise I might have it wrong and give something a go despite my experience/opinions. Providing there is a reasonable theory behind something as to why it may work. A coated mat on top of a CD can/will affect the laser dispersal and hence what gets detected by the laser. What that means in terms of the signal is another story, but the door is far from shut/closed.
If I have another lotto win I might try the £179 jobie but TBH I am getting more fun, pleasure from digital files streamed and stored. The difference in mastering or just mixing is interesting and does unarguably provide a different sound. The £179 would also cover an Arkless revamp of the Cambridge Phono Stage, which would sound different as everyone who has heard has said.
I'll try it a few more times, if I remember, it hasn't proved a problem in the draw/tray as yet (my main concern)
AVI Lab series CD Player.
Is it the SE version (MKII) with built-in agnosticism to CD mats?
Marco.
Is it the SE version (MKII) with built-in agnosticism to CD mats?
Marco.
Could well be it is quite happy without the Mat. You aren't a fan of mats yourself are you?
It may creep up on me with time if I remember to put it in the tray. Hopefully it does no harm .
weetabix
29-01-2014, 13:42
Hi All,
I was demoing a cd player to a colleague, it was a low cost unit with a drawer mechanism, after a quick blast I asked him to look away whilst I opened the drawer and placed a second CD on top of the playable CD, and pressed play..... to his astonishment, he asked what have you done, it's less err "mushy", more dynamic, improved separation, more pronounced definition.
I explained all I had done was add a second CD on top of the one to be played, thus adding more mass, the inertia had been increased improving the velocity constant and damping any resonances on the disc being read.
Regards
Stephen
Well a few weeks use of the SID has not brought any apparent improvement to SQ.
I ended up with a stuck CD draw and had to dismantle the player to extract the CD.
Bought a lens cleaning CD from Maplins
and leave the SID in the CD tray when not in use to keep the dust off the lens.
Spending my money on highres downloads a lot of which are worth the modest costs and you can hear the improvement.
I explained all I had done was add a second CD on top of the one to be played, thus adding more mass, the inertia had been increased improving the velocity constant and damping any resonances on the disc being read.
Regards
Stephen
I have heard the theory that increasing mass may be in some way beneficial, but the CD system is a constant linear velocity system, as opposed to a constant angular velocity system like LP, so any increase in mass will make the servos work harder to keep the bit stream constant in an eccentric disc.
I don't know how eccentric many discs can be, but I see no way how increasing mass could be beneficial in the way it could be with a turntable and if the servo is designed with typical CD inertia as a parameter, as one would expect it would be, adding mass will make the servo controller non-optimum.
It may well sound different but that is probably because there are far more read errors being corrected/concealed rather than because of any possible mechanical benefit.
Mind you my CD transport has a built in ultra low inertia peripheral disc damper built in, though I imagine the servos were designed with this extra inertia included, so I don't ever listen without the built in equivalent of a "mat"...
I have heard the theory that increasing mass may be in some way beneficial, but the CD system is a constant linear velocity system, as opposed to a constant angular velocity system like LP, so any increase in mass will make the servos work harder to keep the bit stream constant in an eccentric disc.
If you take all the mass produced leser mechs like philips', Sony's ones etc their physical design will not be to provide the perfect servo operation - it's a massive compromise with production cost playing a VERY large proportion of that compromise.
If you look at the orginal Philips CDM0 / 1, the motors have large brass weights underneath adding angular moment at the centre. Those mechs were expensive to build. Those motors have MUCH higher angular momentum in stock form than any modern mech even with a CD matt in place. The servos were probably slower then so needed that mass to prevent unstable, quick changes in speed.
As things became more plasticy and mass produced, motors became cheaper and less well made and spindles lighter and thinner and some on long shafts. Servos will have no-doubt become faster to compensate for all those challenges caused by cost-cutting like the speed of the ligher motor, shaft and plasic platter being more easily influenced by external factors, more twitchy/jittery. So I'd think it certainly not impossible that extra angular moment could help. It just depends as to whether the servo programming and torque of the motor is able to cope or not or if there's a lot of room for differences.
Faster servos will be generating higher frequency EMF and might interact more with signals from the laser? A servo working less hard will work slower and so EMF energy in total will be down (well, depends how they work - some may be completely constant no-matter the work load)
But that's not to say for sure that it has sonic effects..
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