Are we heading for a two tier society?

[synsei]

As this government maliciously continues to tear our society apart it is becoming obvious that in just a few short years Dave's Big Society will consist of a privileged group of 'Hooray Henry's' with little interest in anything other than what's in their wallets and what spec their next Beemer might be sporting, leaving the 'dregs' to fester in the gutter. Enough evidence has come to light recently which clearly demonstrates that Cameron and Co needn't have resorted to such draconian measures to effect an economic upturn. Various influential global bodies, including the IMF, have soundly chastised this government in recent weeks for its austerity policies, including damning criticism that it is not doing enough to encourage economic growth and that it is summarily disregarding the needs of a sizeable proportion of the population which are disadvantaged. Instead Cameron continues to back inappropriate 'White Elephant' projects which will only benefit an elite section of society, such as HS2 for example.

Whilst I agree that action needed to be taken to address the UK's financial position, it is obvious to anybody with half a brain that the current situation is far from ideal. Recent unemployment figures look positive initially, but scratch the surface a little and you will find that job take up statistics do not match the figures for those dropping out of the benefits system. So, where are these people ending up? Who knows, but if they are not claiming benefits and are not working then the chances are they will become a new underclass having to survive on their wits on the streets. This worries me, as it should worry all those who have any empathy for their fellow citizens.

[loo]

Sadly Dave is this not how its always been in Britain , one thing we are good at is knowing our place , yeah loads of jobs if you don't want any of the benefits of a contract of employment and you will work for next to nothing.
who's to blame
http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s612/loonieboo1/maggie-stein_zpsb8c3013b.gif (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/loonieboo1/media/maggie-stein_zpsb8c3013b.gif.html)
she is
Paul

[Clive]

We've been 2 tier for a couple of generations at least. The underclass is nothing new, unfortunately. Just look at parental responsibility and values, so much has gone down the toilet, it cannot all be blamed on the last 3 years.

[DaveK]

Sadly Dave is this not how its always been in Britain , one thing we are good at is knowing our place , yeah loads of jobs if you don't want any of the benefits of a contract of employment and you will work for next to nothing.
who's to blame
http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s612/loonieboo1/maggie-stein_zpsb8c3013b.gif (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/loonieboo1/media/maggie-stein_zpsb8c3013b.gif.html)
she is
Paul

Sadly that is very true and we are rapidly widening the gap between the tiers. IMHO it is approaching the gap it was in during the Middle Ages when the Barons built castles and ate the best available food while and the serfs lived in hovels,
umpteen to a single room and ate if they were lucky. Roll on the revolution because the modern day Barons aren't going to even things out in any way unless they are left with no alternative. The structure of our society is obscene in the true sense of the word IMHO and the politicians, banks, big business, police and even the Church all collude in the obscenity. Roll on the revolution say I ;) .
Dave.

[Thing Fish]

I'm glad i'm not a teenager growing up these days. The future looks pretty bleak for most of them...:(

I even have friends in their 30s and 40s that have no hope of ever owning their own place. They pay more to rent 1 room in a house than I ever did on my mortgage.

I'm just glad I bought when I did (1989).

[walpurgis]

Our successive Governments since the fifties have been working against British values. A cynic might suggest it is an orchestrated plot to drag the country down.

The influence of the never ending inpouring of labour, exiles and 'illegals' from overseas has steadily eroded the English way of life. Yes I know some will protest at my views, but this is not a 'racist', 'elitist' or 'nationalist' expression, It is a statement of fact! I don't have an English background myself, but the problems are obvious, try living where I do and you'd experience it first hand. You would not be happy walking about at night in some of the areas near me and it wasn't like that years ago. The country is seriously overpopulated, to the extent that should there ever be a real worldwide shortfall of resources we in Britain are going to be in serious trouble. Crime is at a level nobody back in the fifties or sixties would have believed possible. Back then, a gun crime was so rare it made the front page of the national papers.

British industry and nationalised business has for generations been deliberately under supported to allow it to become unviable and then sold off into private and foreign hands. Look what happened to British Leyland, what a disgrace!

Earnings for the ordinary tradesman are at a relative all time low due to cheap labour from elsewhere being willing to take miniscule pay and dragging everybody else's wages down. Our schools, hospitals & NHS, and housing are stretched to beyond any sensible limit and transport, utilities and just about any essential service you care to name are being mercilessly plundered for profit, to our great cost.

There are no easy solutions and certainly no painless ones. What is going to happen? I advocate nothing, but I say there's trouble ahead!

[loo]

Its been like this for centuries, the poor in Britain have always been treated like shit no matter where they started off, I think one of the main causes in the last 200 years has been the education system apart from the grammer school era state schools have largely undereducated children keeping them docile and gulable where as the rich have benefited from private education in some of the worlds best schools , even with my shit state education I can work out the result of this disparity ,
Paul

[Ninanina]

Our successive Governments since the fifties have been working against British values. A cynic might suggest it is an orchestrated plot to drag the country down.

The influence of the never ending inpouring of labour, exiles and 'illegals' from overseas has steadily eroded the English way of life. Yes I know some will protest at my views, but this is not a 'racist', 'elitist' or 'nationalist' expression, It is a statement of fact! I don't have an English background myself, but the problems are obvious, try living where I do and you'd experience it first hand. You would not be happy walking about at night in some of the areas near me and it wasn't like that years ago. The country is seriously overpopulated, to the extent that should there ever be a real worldwide shortfall of resources we in Britain are going to be in serious trouble. Crime is at a level nobody back in the fifties or sixties would have believed possible. Back then, a gun crime was so rare it made the front page of the national papers.

British industry and nationalised business has for generations been deliberately under supported to allow it to become unviable and then sold off into private and foreign hands. Look what happened to British Leyland, what a disgrace!

Earnings for the ordinary tradesman are at a relative all time low due to cheap labour from elsewhere being willing to take miniscule pay and dragging everybody else's wages down. Our schools, hospitals & NHS, and housing are stretched to beyond any sensible limit and transport, utilities and just about any essential service you care to name are being mercilessly plundered for profit, to our great cost.

There are no easy solutions and certainly no painless ones. What is going to happen? I advocate nothing, but I say there's trouble ahead!

You are so right Geoff :clapclapclap:

The whole of the countries infrastructure is at bursting point due to over population, that's our roads, our housing, our health care, our benefits system, everything

We should have shut our doors long ago and I'm guessing that viewpoint won't sit well with a lot of people but that's my view

I'm certainly a believer that if we'd listened better to Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood ' speech in 1968 we would be living in a better 'Great' Britain than we do now :mental:

[Firebottle]

I'm certainly a believer that if we'd listened better to Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood ' speech in 1968 we would be living in a better 'Great' Britain than we do now :mental:
That is such an understatement.

I am also glad I'm not a youngster these days. As for heading towards a two tier society, I think it is already a three tier one.
The 'privileged' (however you see it), the people with a job, and those who subsist on benefits.

One thing that I think can be admired in the French is their sense of nationality, they stick up for themselves as a nation.
Fat chance of 'Great' Britain ever doing that again, mores the pity.

[Gordon Steadman]

Yup,

One of the reasons I was happy to agree with my wife to come to France - quite apart from the obvious one that we could actually afford to buy a house here - was that I was beginning to feel threatened just walking the streets.

I used to live in Molesey, which is a poshish bit near Hampton Court and Kingston upon Thames. walking across Kingston Bridge at night was a worrying experience with gangs of youths hanging about. Gang culture was starting to have an effect. There were two killings, one knife, one gun, the year before we came out here. That was in the street where we lived.

The more the illegal and legal imigrants are willing to work for sums that undercut the indiginous 'workers', the more low wages will become the norm and the more society will be split.

I look from afar at Cameron and his mob and wonder how anyone can be so disconnected from the reality around them. Mind you, Maggie Blair was just as bad.

[Frankyc2003]

You are so right Geoff :clapclapclap:

The whole of the countries infrastructure is at bursting point due to over population, that's our roads, our housing, our health care, our benefits system, everything

We should have shut our doors long ago and I'm guessing that viewpoint won't sit well with a lot of people but that's my view

I'm certainly a believer that if we'd listened better to Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood ' speech in 1968 we would be living in a better 'Great' Britain than we do now :mental:

I guess this is an interesting one.
You are right in terms of density, UK being one of the most densely populated country in the EU and Western Europe, but if we look at our neighbours in Netherlands, which actually sit closely to the UK in terms of population density (395 people/SqKm for UK, 393 people/SqKm in Netherlands), their proportion of immigrated population sits at roughly 21%, where Uk's sits at 14.6% (source Wikipedia). And let's now have a look at their infrastructure... Their motorways are the most illuminated in Europe, hence the safest, so much so that you can see them from space. They have good public transports, trains and trams are working fine, and the fare prices are low, Health department seems to be one of the best in 32 european countries after their 2006 reform (again my source is Wikipedia) and has been used as a model for the US in their reforms. I shall ignore education and the rest of social services for the sake of speed.

But If we follow your argument, their infrastructure would be even worse than UK's, but reality tells us a different story...
The point I am trying to make is that, UK's problem isn't over Immigration, it isn't even overcrowding...
UK's number one problem is a political one... There seems to be a fundamental shift between social classes and absolutely no political will to mend that gap. Actually the actual coalition government has done more than the Labour to create a 2 tier society.

There is no bigger society, there is no investment in any form of future. What we are seeing is just the wholesale to the entire country to private investment. All making the UK a huge commercial enterprise with a board of directors and their targets and their shares and their dividends... Not a model of social organisation and government, just a big machine to generate money for the very few at the top, and pennies for the rest of the pyramid. Have a look at the way the coalition has been dealing with education, energy, etc...

And tell me honestly that the UK isn't run aggressively like a multinational company where everything is driven by profit. The government view being that if business prospers in the country, people will do well too. SO for example if house prices are starting to reach stratospheric highs again, this is all good news, creating equity which will fuel high street trade. If private investors buy the Royal Mail, they will instantly turn it into a successful Bonus generating company.

That's free trade. But again experience shows us a different picture.
Desolation in the North, desillusion in the South, and discord and discontent everywhere. Don't get me wrong, free trade, freedom of enterprise and profit are good things, but like any good things they need to kept in check by the government, not just let loose freewheeling.

However fast and quick is a bike, it NEEDS BRAKES!!!!

To paraphrase your post I would say that my viewpoint won't sit well either with a lot of people here, but at least we are all free to express our opinions and that is a great thing.:)

[synsei]

The town I live in was once dominated by a huge steelmaking plant. When it opened back in the early part of last century Stuarts & Lloyds, the developers and owners of the plant, brought in thousands of experienced Scottish steelworkers to man it. Even though the plant stopped smelting steel in the early 1980's there is still a sizable Scottish element resident in the town, including many descendants of those original steelworkers. All of them are fiercely proud of their roots.

Until around ten or so years ago the dominant accent which could be heard around town was Scottish. Gradually though, as immigration has taken hold, this state of affairs has been gradually eroded. Today one of the most common languages spoken in town is Polish. In our small cul-de-sac there are thirteen houses, five of which are populated with families of Polish descent. Now I have nothing against the Poles and those who live in our street are decent people who don't cause us or our neighbours any trouble at all, but only a handful of them speak English. Sometimes this can be a little awkward. My point is, taking Corby as a guideline, it is obvious immigration has had a huge impact on some parts of the UK...

[Rothchild]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/gap-between-rich-and-poor-named-8th-wonder-of-the,18914/

[Tarzan]

Our successive Governments since the fifties have been working against British values. A cynic might suggest it is an orchestrated plot to drag the country down.

The influence of the never ending inpouring of labour, exiles and 'illegals' from overseas has steadily eroded the English way of life. Yes I know some will protest at my views, but this is not a 'racist', 'elitist' or 'nationalist' expression, It is a statement of fact! I don't have an English background myself, but the problems are obvious, try living where I do and you'd experience it first hand. You would not be happy walking about at night in some of the areas near me and it wasn't like that years ago. The country is seriously overpopulated, to the extent that should there ever be a real worldwide shortfall of resources we in Britain are going to be in serious trouble. Crime is at a level nobody back in the fifties or sixties would have believed possible. Back then, a gun crime was so rare it made the front page of the national papers.

British industry and nationalised business has for generations been deliberately under supported to allow it to become unviable and then sold off into private and foreign hands. Look what happened to British Leyland, what a disgrace!

Earnings for the ordinary tradesman are at a relative all time low due to cheap labour from elsewhere being willing to take miniscule pay and dragging everybody else's wages down. Our schools, hospitals & NHS, and housing are stretched to beyond any sensible limit and transport, utilities and just about any essential service you care to name are being mercilessly plundered for profit, to our great cost.

There are no easy solutions and certainly no painless ones. What is going to happen? I advocate nothing, but I say there's trouble ahead!



Well done Geoff for putting head over the parapitt- this country has had it for all the points you raise above- well done.

[Audioman]

Interesting subject. One thing if these Poles don't speak a word of English how do they get work unless they are employed by other Poles. Does make you wonder about the business practices and motivation of some employers. Of course the only answer to rectify this is leave the EEC. Also a lot of Polish families actually have been here since the War. If you were Catholic something you would be aware of - lots of Polish names at school 50 years ago and Masses held in Polish. So Polish speaking Poles aren't that new. Concern is are they here for a few years which I suspect many are and are they taking jobs from british people? Frankly Hindi and other Asian speakers are more of a worry due their tendency to bring in relatives and form isolated communities. A situation made worse by 'multiculturalism' promoted by the political elite. Highlighted by the govt undermining their free schools policy by allowing set up of an Islamist school more interested in promoting their view of the world than providing effective teaching.

The country is not 'overcrowded' in physical terms but housing and services are not there to cope with extra numbers and are never likely to unless you want to concrete over much needed natural resources such as farms to produce more food. BTW the current situation was not caused by Margaret Thatcher but by subsequent governments that have sucked up to City Investors looking for short term gain rather than long term investment. Government money is limited so private enterprise is needed to invest in infrastructure and production. It's now unfortunately reached the stage were we are reliant on the Chinese.

Also stop knocking the current Govt. Some of their 'cost saving' measures are stupid, unfair and hardly workable but in general they have a difficult task in correcting the gross incompetence of the Brown/Blair years. Unfortunately there are few people in the government or on the opposition front bench who understand the workings of industry and finance or the situation many ordinary people find themselves in. In fact in policy terms you are splitting hairs between them. However I suspect more spending as advocated by Mr Balls until recently may have tipped things the wrong way.

Paul.

[synsei]

Interesting subject. One thing if these Poles don't speak a word of English how do they get work unless they are employed by other Poles. Does make you wonder about the business practices and motivation of some employers. Of course the only answer to rectify this is leave the EEC. Also a lot of Polish families actually have been here since the War. If you were Catholic something you would be aware of - lots of Polish names at school 50 years ago and Masses held in Polish. So Polish speaking Poles aren't that new. Concern is are they here for a few years which I suspect many are and are they taking jobs from british people? Frankly Hindi and other Asian speakers are more of a worry due their tendency to bring in relatives and form isolated communities. A situation made worse by 'multiculturalism' promoted by the political elite. Highlighted by the govt undermining their free schools policy by allowing set up of an Islamist school more interested in promoting their view of the world than providing effective teaching.

The country is not 'overcrowded' in physical terms but housing and services are not there to cope with extra numbers and are never likely to unless you want to concrete over much needed natural resources such as farms to produce more food. BTW the current situation was not caused by Margaret Thatcher but by subsequent governments that have sucked up to City Investors looking for short term gain rather than long term investment. Government money is limited so private enterprise is needed to invest in infrastructure and production. It's now unfortunately reached the stage were we are reliant on the Chinese.

Also stop knocking the current Govt. Some of their 'cost saving' measures are stupid, unfair and hardly workable but in general they have a difficult task in correcting the gross incompetence of the Brown/Blair years. Unfortunately there are few people in the government or on the opposition front bench who understand the workings of industry and finance or the situation many ordinary people find themselves in. In fact in policy terms you are splitting hairs between them. However I suspect more spending as advocated by Mr Balls until recently may have tipped things the wrong way.

Paul.

Your point on the Polish situation may be valid Paul but so not much in this town. Perhaps there are a few long term Polish residents living locally but not enough for me to have bumped into any over the intervening years. These days however one might be forgiven for thinking Corby is a Polish town if one were to be parachuted in blindfold.

Sorry mate but I am not going to stop knocking this government, nor the previous administration for that matter. Both have royally screwed this country over in their own unique manner. As for Margaret Thatcher, let me just say that I much prefer her present role in society compared to her more infamous one. "The lady is not for turning..." Now that is a far more impactful statement today than it was when she originally uttered it...

[Effem]

I am an "import" from Hungary in 1956 during the uprising and possibly have a different take to the indigenous population here. When I arrived in this country with mother and stepfather, penniless and only what could be crammed into a suitcase, there certainly wasn't a raft of benefits and housing waiting for us that's for sure. My clothes and toys came from the WRVS as I remember it and as for housing, it was a case of staying wherever we could with the support of friends. The folks tried to get work but the British were none too keen on hiring "foreigners". The break came when a local builder gave the old man a job (he was a qualified master builder and decorator) and one room in a big house the builder owned - which needed repairing.

I don't class myself as "hungarian" at all and changed my name to an English one back in the 80's because I was fed up with the prejudice I encountered when looking for jobs. The irony is that now it would be rather desirable on my CV it seems :eyebrows:

I remember that they used to regularly send post back to Hungary with all sorts of things included in the envelope. A steady stream of razor blades would you believe? Not because they wanted to slice any postie's fingers off, but because there was a chronic shortage of good quality razor blades back home. For a few years they then sent money instead and that to me is one of the things that NO government has ever addressed - the MASSIVE amount of money all these immigrants must be siphoning out of the country by the back door to their homelands. I am not thinking thousands or millions now, I reckon the figure is up in the billions of pounds.

I think Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech has been twisted and misconstrued very badly. I don't think he was against immigration at all, he was simply reiterating history and highlighting the worst traits of human nature when the chips are down. Without actually saying the words, he was saying that if the world's economies slumped again and the population suffered severe deprivation once more, there was again a very great risk that there would be scapegoats and "immigrants" seem to be in the firing line pretty quick in those situations. Back in the 1930's it was Jews who were mostly blamed for the financial collapse and resulting deprivation and there is no need to repeat the outcome of that scenario is there? Next time it could be black folks, it could be the Poles and Eastern Europeans, or the Asian folks, it really doesn't bear thinking about how when times are tough the darkest sides of human nature rise to the surface. We are still in deep recession and realise it or not, the subtle witch-hunting process is going on right now if you care to look deeply.

My own personal view is that CONTROLLED immigration is a good thing because it brings welcome diversities. If we had no immigration at all, then where could we buy a Kebab or a decent Curry? :lol:

[Tarzan]

Your point on the Polish situation may be valid Paul but so not much in this town. Perhaps there are a few long term Polish residents living locally but not enough for me to have bumped into any over the intervening years. These days however one might be forgiven for thinking Corby is a Polish town if one were to be parachuted in blindfold.

Sorry mate but I am not going to stop knocking this government, nor the previous administration for that matter. Both have royally screwed this country over in their own unique manner. As for Margaret Thatcher, let me just say that I much prefer her present role in society compared to her more infamous one. "The lady is not for turning..." Now that is a far more impactful statement today than it was when she originally uttered it...


Or Dagenham, is Lagos, Nairobi, Accra, or Warsaw or any other African/ Eastern European Capital you care to mention, the thing l do understand these people seem to wandering round doing nothing, failing that they are carrying suitcases around with them :scratch:

[loo]

There seems to be an undercurrent or real nastiness being expressed on this thread. Funny how we always pick on the weakest groups in society , personally I don't think immigrants are in anyway to blame for the state of this nation . As for thatcher being blameless we're you alive during her reign . She instigated the whole financial mess were in , Blair was just riding on her coat tails , the current lot are so far removed from reality it is truly frightening , I'm sure Osborne is related to fisher from alien a more vacant gaze I have not seen.
Politicians are the scum on a cesspit
Paul

[DaveK]

"The whole of the countries infrastructure is at bursting point due to over population, that's our roads, our housing, our health care, our benefits system, everything."
I do not think even the government of any party would argue with those facts. When all of the above were first set up I do not think any politician in their wildest dreams would have anticipated that the above facilities would so soon need to cope with their present load. Given the fact that immigration is, and has been for several years, running at record levels it seems obvious that those two things are related. Those at the top benefit from this situation but the lower down the social ladder 'Joe Public' is the more he is adversely affected. It won't end until there is a revolution - the British public is very stoic in adverse situations, grumbles about it, makes jokes about it but get their heads down and carry on to the best of their abilities but when the worm turns they tend not to stop until the job's done. Roll on the revolution. :)
Dave.

[Tarzan]

I do not think even the government of any party would argue with those facts. When all of the above were first set up I do not think any politician in their wildest dreams would have anticipated that the above facilities would so soon need to cope with their present load. Given the fact that immigration is, and has been for several years, running at record levels it seems obvious that those two things are related. Those at the top benefit from this situation but the lower down the social ladder 'Joe Public' is the more he is adversely affected. It won't end until there is a revolution - the British public is very stoic in adverse situations, grumbles about it, makes jokes about it but get their heads down and carry on to the best of their abilities but when the worm turns they tend not to stop until the job's done. Roll on the revolution. :)
Dave.


Can you really be surprised people are angry, the working class being taxed to the hilt, and immigrants coming into the country, grabbing all the benefits and taking jobs ( the big companies get cheap labour) -it is not their fault,blame Blair's government for a start, l live in an area of high immigration and people you talk to this is one of the first subjects that ordinary people want to talk about, it really is in a bad way, as some else said this island is very over populated, NHS stretched to the limit- l give up:(

[Effem]

There seems to be an undercurrent or real nastiness being expressed on this thread. Funny how we always pick on the weakest groups in society , personally I don't think immigrants are in anyway to blame for the state of this nation . As for thatcher being blameless we're you alive during her reign . She instigated the whole financial mess were in , Blair was just riding on her coat tails , the current lot are so far removed from reality it is truly frightening , I'm sure Osborne is related to fisher from alien a more vacant gaze I have not seen.
Politicians are the scum on a cesspit
Paul

Well yes, I think we all have more to fear from the idiots in government than we do from immigrants.

But even then, ANY government has to fight the rising tide of change appearing globally. This country isn't the ONLY one with an "immigrant problem", in fact almost every european country has had an influx of migrants which they have to accept mainly due to EU regulations which says that there must be freedom of movement between member state's borders.

[synsei]

Perhaps we should adopt the Australian model for immigration...

[Effem]

Perhaps we should adopt the Australian model for immigration...

On the surface it seems a sensible idea BUT, the Australians don't have the EU dictating to them who they can and can't settle there for a start. Secondly, few people realise that the Australians have done trade deals all around the far east in exchange for relaxing immigration controls with people coming from those countries. The result is they have far more in common with the far east than they do with GB.

I think too many people are falling for the smoke and mirrors the politicians are wafting our way. First it was the unemployed being pilloried who costs the taxpayer less than what HMRC have outstanding to collect from the wealthy and big business, the pensioners are getting a good battering from all sides too at the moment, then immigrants are an issue, who will be next I wonder? Like it or not, the unemployed also pay a substantial amount of indirect taxes so actually the net amount they get is less than what the government claims. "The NHS is costing too much" they scream, but no, it is the half-arsed way they are still organised, management top heavy and being led a merry dance by suppliers. Try and find a GP that does a full 9 to 5 day in the surgery.

Look in depth just how much the banks has siphoned off the public purse in the last 8 years and maybe less attention will be paid to the pensioners, immigrants and the unemployed :steam:

[walpurgis]

I think a point has been missed. It's not really who's here that matters, so much as how many. This country has a self sustainable population value of maybe 50 million and this was exceeded I believe shortly after WW2. I don't blame people coming here from less advantageous environments, I'd do the same myself in their shoes. But the sensible limit for UK population size has long been passed and it shows. The argument that we need people with skills not available here is quite bluntly crap! A lack of skilled people is due to employers and the government basically refusing to develop a home trained workforce just to save money. Ironic that so many foreign students come here to get those very skills and later come back as doctors or engineers etc.

[losenotaminute]

I think a point has been missed. It's not really who's here that matters, so much as how many. This country has a self sustainable population value of maybe 50 million and this was exceeded I believe shortly after WW2. I don't blame people coming here from less advantageous environments, I'd do the same myself in their shoes. But the sensible limit for UK population size has long been passed and it shows. The argument that we need people with skills not available here is quite bluntly crap! A lack of skilled people is due to employers and the government basically refusing to develop a home trained workforce just to save money. Ironic that so many foreign students come here to get those very skills and later come back as doctors or engineers etc.

I agree that a large unproductive population is the main issue and not immigration or evil bankers. To say that we were self-sustaining before WW2 is questionable. We have relied on imports of food, manufactured goods and other necessities (power for example) for many years. At the moment we are in the process of transferring assets (both public and private) overseas due to a huge trade imbalance and out of control government borrowing.

Lawrence