View Full Version : Using a "Hi-Fi" Pre with a "Studio" Power Amp... set-up?
nickbaba
09-10-2013, 15:59
Does anyone here have experience with this?
Over on my recent "High-End (ahem!) British Amp" thread, I was advised that one solution to a budget 'Power + SQ' combo would be using a Studio-brand power amp at home, like Mc2 or Yamaha. Presumably fed by a decent pre-amp as I have multiple sources to connect.
I notice that most home-use power amps have no (front panel) volume controls of their own, whereas many Studio or PA ones do. So here's a question - when connecting a pre-amp, which has a volume control, to a power amp which also has volume controls, what's the best way to set them up?
Should one leave the power amp volume all the way up, at 100%, and control overall vol from the pre? (In practice this can mean that a comfortable listening level in the room is the pre-amp vol dial 2mm up from 0!)
Or set both for a comfortable listening level?(for instance both volume controls at 30% if that is an average listening level for the room)
If the power amp is only set at 40-50% does that mean that it will not be driving the speakers at its full power potential?
Are there considerations for choosing a correct pre for such a power amp? in terms of output levels etc? For instance would a low output tube pre potentially not be feeding sufficient signal to a power amp?
Very interested to hear from anyone with experience of this.
realysm42
09-10-2013, 16:59
Power amp don't have volume controls.
Preamps are the volume control and source selector.
This is for pretty much all domestic hi fi, I imagine pro is the same but I've no experience of it.
Generally speaking care should always be taken to match components, especially pre and power. There is a technical aspect to this *ducks out for those more in the know to help*
nickbaba
09-10-2013, 17:50
Power amp don't have volume controls.
On the front of this Yahama (my current power amp) you will notice 2 dials. Whatever they may be called technically (gain attenuators etc), they basically control volume.
Oldpinkman
09-10-2013, 18:07
Power amp don't have volume controls.
Preamps are the volume control and source selector.
This is for pretty much all domestic hi fi, I imagine pro is the same but I've no experience of it.
Generally speaking care should always be taken to match components, especially pre and power. There is a technical aspect to this *ducks out for those more in the know to help*
No. If you look on my fender blues junior I have master and volume. Volume is the preamp, master the power amp. Hi fi I would crank the power amp to full and control with the pre. Guitar - I only really got why people love the amp when I tried it the other way round!:)
realysm42
09-10-2013, 18:11
Isn't that different to domestic hi fi though?
It looks more pa/pro to me.
nickbaba
09-10-2013, 19:08
Yeah - that's what I'm asking about - using pa/pro kit in a home set-up.
That's what I meant by "studio" gear as opposed to 'hi-fi'.
The Grand Wazoo
09-10-2013, 19:26
Power amp controls turned up to full and use the pre to control the gain, unless you have too little fine control. In which case turn the ones on the power amp down a bit.
nickbaba
09-10-2013, 21:22
Got it. Cheers.
Arkless Electronics
10-10-2013, 11:27
Power amp controls turned up to full and use the pre to control the gain, unless you have too little fine control. In which case turn the ones on the power amp down a bit.
Yep that's generally the best way.
A few points on the subject though... Although many pro amps have exemplary specs they don't all sound particularly good. MC2 has a good reputation in this area BTW.
Pro amps are designed to produce huge power reliably and, as such, they often have very low quiescent current to promote cool running, which can mean crossover distortion being a problem at domestic volumes....
Another possible problem can be input sensitivity. Some pro amps can need up to 3V input for full output.
Also beware the usual balanced inputs. They are de-rigour on pro amps and mean that there will usually be a few op amps (usually cheap ones that would be considered lousy by audiophiles) in the signal path.
Fan noise is also something to consider in a pro amp!
The above issues are certainly not present in all pro amps but usually at least one or two of them will be present in most...
cloth-ears
10-10-2013, 14:15
As a rule of thumb most professional amplifiers are not really suited for domestic usage. That Yamaha amp pictured looks like a P2500 and is designed for general PA work, particularly night clubs and pubs. Basically it’s all about bass and treble with a large hole where the midrange used to live. Yamaha do make some excellent studio amplifiers that are used to drive the near field monitors and one of these or one like them would be better suited of home Hi-Fi use.
The Yamaha P2200 is a favourite of mine and would show many so called high-end amps a clean pair of heels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXQAtYqRj8c
Arkless Electronics
10-10-2013, 15:14
As a rule of thumb most professional amplifiers are not really suited for domestic usage. That Yamaha amp pictured looks like a P2500 and is designed for general PA work, particularly night clubs and pubs. Basically it’s all about bass and treble with a large hole where the midrange used to live. Yamaha do make some excellent studio amplifiers that are used to drive the near field monitors and one of these or one like them would be better suited of home Hi-Fi use.
The Yamaha P2200 is a favourite of mine and would show many so called high-end amps a clean pair of heels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXQAtYqRj8c
I really can't agree with any of that.....
cloth-ears
10-10-2013, 15:35
I really can't agree with any of that.....
Why?
@nickbaba
Here in Sweden a lot of people use either B&O IcePower modules or InterM R-500Plus as power amps, and pair these with a good Pre, perhaps a tube based item.
Have been there myself, and still have a pair of InterM power amps tucked away. (These are two channel units but work best when used in bridged mode or using only one channel)
There are several prominent persons in the hifi business that use, and recommend, these as hifi power amps.
In my case, two second hand r-500Plus amps at £150 a piece, coupled with a Xindac XA-3200MkII tube preamp was a very successful combo. The tube pre was bought for £180.
The power amps can very easily be modded to perform more like hifi power amps, lower noise floor and cleaner mid/hi, by replacing gain pots and deleting the bridged/stereo switch.
Regards Mike
Arkless Electronics
10-10-2013, 16:10
There is no hole in the midrange or anything of the sort!
Haselsh1
10-10-2013, 16:25
I used a Samson Servo 600 for a couple of years and it was a right gutsy little f***** with plenty of slam and power but in the end, the hi-fi just sounded like a PA with no real finesse.
Andrew B
10-10-2013, 16:29
I think it's perfectly possible to gets great sound from a PA type power amp. I've only tried once, but the results were very good indeed.
Fair play and much respect goes to anyone who tries to get the best sound they can for the money available, and this looks like one possible way. When you see the build quality of some PA amps, I can see the attraction. If I was trying this route again, I might try one of those Croft Micro Basic preamps with it. At three hundred quid new they seem ludicrously good value. I'm toying with trying one myself at some stage. My best friend absolutely loves Croft but I've never had any of their kit at home.....yet.
Obviously there are also some great passives out there too, which offer great value. I've only tried NVA but I do love the results, although I'm only using the cheapest one. Again, I may well try reaching a little higher for the SA version.
Either a cheapie like the croft or a passive like NVA should give anyone a good chance of great results without spending daft money. I'm looking forward to seeing what the OP goes for and I'd like to say thanks to him for such a great thread.
Arkless Electronics
10-10-2013, 16:46
I used a Samson Servo 600 for a couple of years and it was a right gutsy little f***** with plenty of slam and power but in the end, the hi-fi just sounded like a PA with no real finesse.
Yep that's usually what you'll find with pro amps..... There are some better ones out there of course and they shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush.
The Yamaha 2000/3000/5000 pro amps are well thought of sonically I understand and I still love and deeply respect the now very old Crown/Amcron 'D' series, which are as good as or even better some upstarts in the 'HiFi' fraternity, despite being nigh on 40 years old - a DC300A mk2 in fair 'original' condition sounded awesome when Croft driven into the Harbeth 40.1's and the excellence didn't change at all right up to the clipping lights coming on!
Some general purpose pro amps really are designed purely for big PA use and are promoted as such. Others though which were advertised slightly differently promoting sound quality with huge power output and often more expensive, were used as playback-monitor amps in studios before smaller actives all but took over.
As for volume vs gain - the idea of the power amp gain controls is to allow maximum use of the volume controls on the mixer/preamp feeding them. The DC300A needed its gain controls set to around half to two thirds up for the various preamps we used to be able to use most of their range (especially the aforementioned Croft 25 in it's various trim levels, the Crown easily reproducing the subtle but important quality steps up the ladder the 'uogrades' take). I run my bridged D-60's (different and lower grade pots) with the gain pots at at half way, giving me easily three quarters of the preamp's range for normal volume levels.
There's also a theoretical noise and possible distortion advantage in running as much signal down the pre to power interconnects as possible too, if the gear allows it. I'm sure any sonic difference in interconnects is greatly minimised when this is done, although I haven't ever put any serious effort into it one way or another.
The thing with Top End domestic audio is that casework and cachet often seem to take over from sheer performance. Adding some fancy caps to an inadequate circuit may be one way of doing it, but I prefer Glenn Croft's way myself, using a well sorted and stable design that doesn't NEED fancy bits to work properly, but which can be subtly refined further if you do (although a 25 pre in stock layout but fancy bits probably won't perform better than a 25RS with standard parts, if you see what I mean).
Arkless Electronics
10-10-2013, 18:14
The Yamaha 2000/3000/5000 pro amps are well thought of sonically I understand and I still love and deeply respect the now very old Crown/Amcron 'D' series, which are as good as or even better some upstarts in the 'HiFi' fraternity, despite being nigh on 40 years old - a DC300A mk2 in fair 'original' condition sounded awesome when Croft driven into the Harbeth 40.1's and the excellence didn't change at all right up to the clipping lights coming on!
Some general purpose pro amps really are designed purely for big PA use and are promoted as such. Others though which were advertised slightly differently promoting sound quality with huge power output and often more expensive, were used as playback-monitor amps in studios before smaller actives all but took over.
As for volume vs gain - the idea of the power amp gain controls is to allow maximum use of the volume controls on the mixer/preamp feeding them. The DC300A needed its gain controls set to around half to two thirds up for the various preamps we used to be able to use most of their range (especially the aforementioned Croft 25 in it's various trim levels, the Crown easily reproducing the subtle but important quality steps up the ladder the 'uogrades' take). I run my bridged D-60's (different and lower grade pots) with the gain pots at at half way, giving me easily three quarters of the preamp's range for normal volume levels.
There's also a theoretical noise and possible distortion advantage in running as much signal down the pre to power interconnects as possible too, if the gear allows it. I'm sure any sonic difference in interconnects is greatly minimised when this is done, although I haven't ever put any serious effort into it one way or another.
The thing with Top End domestic audio is that casework and cachet often seem to take over from sheer performance. Adding some fancy caps to an inadequate circuit may be one way of doing it, but I prefer Glenn Croft's way myself, using a well sorted and stable design that doesn't NEED fancy bits to work properly, but which can be subtly refined further if you do (although a 25 pre in stock layout but fancy bits probably won't perform better than a 25RS with standard parts, if you see what I mean).
I've got a couple of DC300A mk2's..... awesome bass! Top end a bit lacking in subtlety though. One of the better pro amps. I recall Tannoy using them to demo the Westminster Royal in the early 80's!
Rothchild
10-10-2013, 18:22
I use studio power amps with a simple passive 'pre' (essentially a pot in a box) in my studio.
In terms of setting up I use my dB meter to callibrate the system so that with the pre set to full volume (ie unattenuated) the amps deliver a -20dBFS RMS pink noise signal at 83dB (c weighted, slow) at the listening position (by adjusting the gains on the front of the amps - in practice this means that they're set to about 3 quarters full volume). This means that well mastered material sounds great with the pre 'open' and overloud stuff gets wound back from there.
I had a Chameleon a few years back lots of power and was just as good as the Gamut D200 I had at the time
Arkless Electronics
10-10-2013, 23:15
I had a Chameleon a few years back lots of power and was just as good as the Gamut D200 I had at the time
I scrapped one of those a couple of years ago... I reverse engineered it to get the circuit diagram as well. Similar to the Audio Analogue Puccini!
nickbaba
11-10-2013, 00:06
Very interesting thoughts, gentlemen.
As I previously posted, I have used a Yahama P2500s for home listening in the past. While the sound was far from refined, there was no obvious mid-range hole. It didn't do too bad of a job at all, across a wide range of music.
@DSJR - thanks for the breakdown of volume v gain. Its interesting to hear that its good to run the pre as high as possible. When I was running my Rodec mixer into the P2500, this is what I ended up doing - I set the mixer faders up to 100% then adjusted the power amp gains down to a comfortable listening level for the room (around 50%). But I wasn't sure if that was the correct way to do it, although it always sounded fine to me.
nickbaba
11-10-2013, 00:15
@ Andrew B - interesting that you would try the Croft Micro pre - I have been looking at those too. Only a shame there's no balanced outputs (MC2 amps only have balanced ins) but I suppose I could go RCA to XLR...
wiicrackpot
11-10-2013, 12:32
I'd be very interested to know what pre amp to use with my MC750, have used it without pre into Urei 809's for the last while without issues,
was quite interested in the NVA passive pre for sale last week but opted out at the moment, i want to stay balanced connection and want something that drives long interconnects so i could tuck the 750 away, remote controlled pre would be nice, any suggestions would be welcomed,
budget about £300.00 max.
icehockeyboy
13-10-2013, 10:29
Pretty sure that Jandl used to use a Behringer PA amp at one point......
Pretty sure that Jandl used to use a Behringer PA amp at one point......
He did, I now have them. I would not describe them as PA amps, though. They are proper hi-fi power amps although I know some will disagree...I'm not using them, however. They sit forlornly in my pile of amps I don't use.
Stratmangler
13-10-2013, 11:07
Guitar - I only really got why people love the amp when I tried it the other way round!:)
Try turning the master right up and give the power stage a workout.
Some of the best tones can often be found there.
The only drawback is that it can get a bit loud, but once you're loud increasing the preamp gain shouldn't make things much louder :eyebrows:
Stratmangler
13-10-2013, 11:11
Basically it’s all about bass and treble with a large hole where the midrange used to live
Don't blame the amp for shortcomings elsewhere - the amp frequency response will not have a section of midband scooped out of it.
I don't know the difference between them (Behringer and Alesis), but Alesis do the RA500 and this is reputedly a bit of a giant killer by all accounts.
I have for custody (can't call it my personal property although I doubt the original broadcast users will ever want it back) a late 80's HH VX300 amp. 100WPC into 8 ohms using MOS-FET's in the output stage. Loads of extra (signal?) wiring inside that isn't needed for domestic use and the electrolytic coupling caps around the Noble attenuators (proper encapsulated ones) may need replacing now as there's noise from the left gain control for a minute or so after switch-on, but it does sound good in a smooth and gentle kind of way - reminds me hugely of the rebuilt Quad 303 I love so much - and despite the extra internal gubbins, EASILY reveals reverb/spacial/production differences in the recordings I play. Preamp currently the AVI S2000MP+P since it seems to cope better with the 15k input impedance than the dear old Croft 4PP I love so much, which prefers 47k or more if more accurate treble dynamics are involved (it's a tiny thing though).
icehockeyboy
13-10-2013, 11:56
He did, I now have them. I would not describe them as PA amps, though. They are proper hi-fi power amps although I know some will disagree...I'm not using them, however. They sit forlornly in my pile of amps I don't use.
What would you describe them as?
I ask as afaik, Behringer don't make anything that's isn't connected to PA type use, bands, disco etc. and to a lesser degree, studios.
Well to me an amp for public address duties needs to be very robust and have a lot of power - say 2KW - so the Behringer A500 does not qualify on either count as a PA amp. 'Semi-pro' , maybe. They do offer a lot of power for the price, though.
Arkless Electronics
13-10-2013, 15:18
Well to me an amp for public address duties needs to be very robust and have a lot of power - say 2KW - so the Behringer A500 does not qualify on either count as a PA amp. 'Semi-pro' , maybe. They do offer a lot of power for the price, though.
If using the A500 it's essential to keep the front panel volume controls on full. There's a weird design fault which means they give vastly higher distortion if you don't ;)
If using the A500 it's essential to keep the front panel volume controls on full. There's a weird design fault which means they give vastly higher distortion if you don't ;)
Yes I've read that, did quite a bit of reading before I bought them. One thing I didn't pick up on was that they are a poor match for a Croft Micro Basic pre-amp - but you live and learn...
wiicrackpot
13-10-2013, 17:50
Martin,
I notice you have a NVA P90 pre, have you hooked it up with the A500?, if you did what was the result like?.
Hi Andy
No I've not tried that but I suppose I could if you need an idea of whether it will work or not.
wiicrackpot
13-10-2013, 20:31
That'd be great Martin when you got a minute and can be arsed to disturb your set up. :)
I've found studio amps to be just as good, even better than 'Hifi' amps. You just need the magic synergy with the speakers like you do in any system.
Crown dc300a can sound sublime on big full range speakers. Not so sublime with small monitors IME.
I currently have a Yamaha pc4002 which is an extremely capable beast. Bass so tight and controlled that you could knock nails in with it. No washy top end, and it's so over spec'd for domestic use that I have never managed to get it's fans to switch on.
It is right to say that not all pro amps should be tarred with the same brush, just as it would be right to say that some very expensive Hifi amps don't live up to their price tag.
It is unfair to suggest that some pro amps use crap parts compared to their Hifi cousins too.
A nice shiny box does not mean that something has been designed and built to the nth degree. To suggest it has is simple snobbery.
"Hi-Fi" Pre with a "Studio" Power Amp?
Well I use a Mark Levinson ML10A pre amp with a Quad 520f power amplifier in my second system with great success.
The Quad 510 and 520 power amps were designed for professional rather than domestic use. I am unaware of them being used in recording studios, but they are used by the BBC and in theatres and cinemas, as well as providing sound reinforcement on the debating chambers of the House of Lords and the House of Commons.
In reference to my last post, I should have added that I set the two gain controls on the Quad 520f such that the volume level is correct for most of my listening when the volume control of the Levinson preamp is at "12 o' clock".
Martin,
I notice you have a NVA P90 pre, have you hooked it up with the A500?, if you did what was the result like?.
Okay - to answer this question I have rigged up a system comprising my studiospares monitors, A500, NVA P90 and a Sony CDP. There is some hum, not sure what the cause is but it is below the level of the music. Not something you would want to live with though. Otherwise I can testify that this combo will work, although with the gain on the A500 at flat out there is not much room to maneuverer with the level pots on the NVA but this is not an uncommon issue with any pre power combo fed by digital source. So hum issue aside it does sound pretty good and certainly an avenue worth exploring given the pin money cost of the amplification. It's also answered my question re the Croft/Behringer pairing that certainly didn't work - it wasn't down to the A500 being either faulty or crap (as some suggested to me at the time).
Here's a picture for those who may say it didn't happen and because I like pictures. Yes, I am aware that WAF is through the floor...
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/NVA-A500002.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/NVA-A500002.jpg.html)
icehockeyboy
19-10-2013, 15:41
Here's a picture for those who may say it didn't happen and because I like pictures. Yes, I am aware that WAF is through the floor...
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/NVA-A500002.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/NVA-A500002.jpg.html)
Through the floor?
More like nearly down to Australia! :lol:
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