View Full Version : Has anyone experienced needle talk?
The Black Adder
06-10-2013, 19:45
Hi.
Does anyone know about needle talk and why it happens, if it can be dampened down?
This is when you can hear the record through the stylus when the volume is turned down.
Cheers
Joe
Oldpinkman
06-10-2013, 19:57
Did Arthur pay you to post that? One of the features of all the mainstream pt turntables was that you could minimise needletalk by adjusting the tightening of the 4 bolts on the armboard.
John Gordon
06-10-2013, 20:52
Needle talk is caused by the excess energy from the cartridge being transferred to the tonearm. In an ideal world all the energy in the cartridge would be converted to signal, and there would be no needle talk. In other words needle talk should be dealt with by the cartridge manufacturer, by ensuring the cartridge is well made.
Excess energy can be dissipated in the arm to some extent through damping the arm tube. However, there will always be some frequencies at which the arm can be excited and so vibrate, and this you will hear if you listen solely to the arm tracking a record with no sound from the speakers.
My approach was to try and ensure that if there was any sound from the arm tube, it should be harmonious and not edgy or discordant, that way way ensuring the frequencies were well spread out and unlikely to be too problematic. Then to use arm tube damping to reduce its effects.
walpurgis
06-10-2013, 21:10
Try using a Decca!
Hi.
Does anyone know about needle talk and why it happens, if it can be dampened down?
This is when you can hear the record through the stylus when the volume is turned down.
Cheers
Joe
Hello Joe,
What a delicious can of worms this. This is a subject very dear to me heart.
John’s statements about the origins and treatments have more than a ring (sorry) of truth but if I may, I'd like to be a tad more precise.
Needletalk is indeed the mechanical energy that transfers across the stylus to the body.
You only have look at a Decca, as already mentioned to see this.
Decca’s 4c.u. vertical compliance is due to their have an all but vertical piece of metal acting as the cantilever, which the cartridge sits on.
Because a stylus will accelerate up to 20,000g, boy does the cartridge body know it has an impact hammer underneath it and from 20-20kHz.
You try avoiding that!
We then go and firmly bolt this energy source to an arm tube to it and it's the arm tube’s modes we hear and so it is arm designers who must deal with it. Although needletalk is a misnomer for ease I'll still call it that.
Here’s where it gets fun. Stylus motion is essentially "up and down" / left and right” (OK 45 degrees but you try describing that. fortunately, same effect.)
i.e. It excites modes along the length of the tube - rotational excitation is of little significance.
Arms are typically 9” tubes so we will have families of characteristics we hear. Firstly, resonances reach 30dB, which is horrendous and seen no-where else in the system. Worse, they occur typically between 500-2kHz, right where our hearing is most sensitive. Resonances mean flexing of the tube which means the cartridge now moves.
So, what can be done?
I apologise in advance for the following sales pitch but you did ask.
After years of being in the industry and listening, here’s my solution. - It’s called F.X.
To best understand it, think of the arm tube as a fishing rod with a heavy weight at the end -it flexes. Wrapping bandages round the tube doesn’t actually do anything as the tube still bends but with its mass increased, it'll bend even more! Resonance now starts lower in frequency. In my experience, tube damping merely spreads the energy and smears reproduction even more. (A certain, well-respected, reference arm is oft criticised for this effect.)
Back to the drawing board: First and foremost we want a structure that is rigid to longitudinal vibration, so, forget the tube. How about an “I” beam?
A single “I” beam, however, will still flex left and right. Use two in a cross and you have a rigid system up-down / left-right. (the beauty is that doing the maths, it is also stiff at all angles in between.
"But, however stiff it is along the tube, it will twist and pretty easily" I hear you cry.
Not if we mate it with a tube as well. Now we have the best of all worlds.
Both longitudinal and rotational rigidity. Clever huh?
We now have an arm that is, oh, so much more rigid. Isn't that what we've been after? It no longer flexes at those critical frequencies and we get a whole new insight into our records.
If you now have a more rigid arm, the energy transmits down the tube where hopefully the turntable will dump the unwanted hash.
Apart from the wonderful new things you can hear, an interesting thing I have noted is that listening fatigue reduces, which says to me that subliminally we know when something is not right.
Unsurprisingly, making these is a bit of a game; that's the manufacturer's headache.
The technical bits are there to be seen on resonance plots, which we’ve got on the website.
These are curves from HiFi World, so completely independent.
Ain’t it great when fiziks delivers?
Arthur
Oldpinkman
08-10-2013, 05:32
I still reckon you paid joe to post that. :ner:
Oldpinkman
08-10-2013, 07:16
Oh boy
I suspect a sucker-punch coming somewhere... And Arthur, after years of being an old softie, has found that for platters and tonearms you need a good stiff one. Mrs S has endorsed this, and says the concept extends beyond just platters and tonearms...:eek:
Knowing Arthur as I do, like the gypsy with the crystal balls, I can see what's coming :lol:
John Gordon
08-10-2013, 20:39
Arthur,
As you seem to enjoy talking about your new arm, just curious to know why you used the Rega as a basis, given its shortcomings, and not designed a better arm with regard to reducing potential problem areas.
I like the insert thing. Presumably it is glued in, so that will provide a certain amount of damping.
John
Oldpinkman
08-10-2013, 20:43
Crystal balls, but I'll leave it to arthur ;)
Thing Fish
08-10-2013, 22:32
i get a little bit of needle talk but only hear it on really quite passages on certain records. only on laura marling records in fact. i've never heard it on any others.
Oldpinkman
09-10-2013, 04:04
i get a little bit of needle talk but only hear it on really quite passages on certain records. only on laura marling records in fact. i've never heard it on any others.
Odd. Usually its most audible on loud passages. Are you listening for it with the amp turned off? Depends on lots of things - a fairly compliant cartridge will be quieter. Cant see your cartridge but looks like an ittok arm - surely one of the better linn products. Its not one of the plots on funks web site but plots were published in hifi choice reviews. The main resonances are not in the f.x league but are not bad for that arm
Needle talk is endemic to vinyl playback - all records and systems exhibit it to some extent.
Arthur,
As you seem to enjoy talking about your new arm, just curious to know why you used the Rega as a basis, given its shortcomings, and not designed a better arm with regard to reducing potential problem areas.
I like the insert thing. Presumably it is glued in, so that will provide a certain amount of damping.
John
Well, not quite that I like talking about F.X per se but if you had created something you genuinely believed in and could demonstrate was a true step forward, wouldn't you be excited to talk about it and wouldn't you want others to enjoy what you were enjoying?
By contrast one only has to look at the impedance matched platter.
Again I did it, but financially got nothing for it. Now, however, manufacturers near and far are using it for you lot to enjoy.
Well, I've learnt my lesson. This time, it's me that's doing the shouting.
FXR really is damned good and you should try it, which sort of answers your question: Why the Rega?
We wanted to offer exceptional value for money and modding a Rega was an obvious choice.
How good is it?
It was launched at a Bristol where we demo'd FXR against SME and ARO using 1042s. To avoid complaints of "you've selected your stylus", if requested we swapped, using just the one stylus.
After the show and much to our surprise and obvious delight, someone then very kindly posted on another forum that Funk's FXR kept coming top, beating even his favourite arm, the ARO.
Since then, SME V and even Graham (an arm I respect) owners have opted for FXR and have not changed back.
One owner with three (expensive) decks has / uses three FXRs.
So we must be doing something right.
If you consider that in his case the upgrade only version costs £960, he’s kitted three decks out for about the price of an SME V.
Then there are people like Marco who have a mental block when it comes to Regas, which as you have been pointing out have some pretty obvious limitations.
I am also aware that it's not exactly the most impressive looking of arms, red tube or no red tube.
Well, worry not any longer.
Straight after Flamenca has settled down, FX3 (our in-house designed and built FXR replacement) is waiting to be released. :champagne:
(Still not sure whether to keep the red or return to something more adventurous, say black?:rolleyes:
This will be the start of start of a whole range of F.X derived arms that are currently on the design board, each more tantalisingly lunatic then the one before.
RE: Damping:
One would indeed think that a squidgy glue line would be a good thing. Listening tests during development, however, showed damping softens the transients.
A quick sidetrack: This particular aspect in fact goes hand in hand with our new SL1200 platter. Such consistency of results is comforting. I'll be elaborating on that next week.
In order to approach as true a transmission line as can be practically achieved then I really am after a rigid entity :eyebrows: - happy now, Richard! (Do I really have to stoop so low?)
In production tube tolerances vary, sometimes wildly. If you use just one size cross-member, half the time it either doesn’t fit at all or it falls in. Very tedious.
The easy fix would to make them undersize where they all fall in and then rely on the glue; for an FXR to perform as designed, however, as previous that is clear a "No Sir".
- recall, the stylus acceleration reaches 20,000g, which is one heck of a force. If the cross is not a specific fit, it won’t really do its job and because of this you can hear the differences in the fit / the way it's glued.
In production then we have a range of cross-members; each tube / cross set has to be individually tailored thereby ensuring sonic consistency.
Such time consuming close tolerance engineering is one reason for the upgrade price of the arm.
As you can hopefully see, trying to get the best from one's cartridge, the passive arm with all its weaknesses is really quite a fun thing to play with.
As an aside, I find it fascinating the degree to which people are concerned with the black art of cables, which we can’t measure, then changes in things that literally scream at us and which are dead easy to see by measurement and where listening is merely a formality, albeit a very enjoyable one.
Can anyone help in this regard?
Oldpinkman
09-10-2013, 20:23
You probably need to repost that in trade impressions mate. Can't pretend to understand all the rules properly cos I'm a beancounter not a forum admin, but folk get terribly excited about this stuff.
Lost on me. I always click on todays posts and have no idea which forum I'm in :cool:
You probably need to repost that in trade impressions mate. Can't pretend to understand all the rules properly cos I'm a beancounter not a forum admin, but folk get terribly excited about this stuff.
Lost on me. I always click on todays posts and have no idea which forum I'm in :cool:
yes...he said in between glugs of Bordoh...I wondered as much but I was also genuinely trying to answer the Q.
So, Marco do I copy it to trade?;)
A.
You probably need to repost that in trade impressions mate. Can't pretend to understand all the rules properly cos I'm a beancounter not a forum admin, but folk get terribly excited about this stuff.
Nah, it's perfectly acceptable thread drift. Arthur is merely extrapolating the discussion, and besides it's always interesting reading him 'thinking out loud' like that :)
Arthur, so I have mental block on Rega tonearms? No, I just acknowledge their limitations, based on experience, especially when used in an inappropriate context. I also fully understand why you use them as the base for some of your own designs. However, your modifications/re-builds eradicate those limitations, in order that the 'Rega DNA' becomes dilluted to the point of insignificance ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
09-10-2013, 21:04
Certainly the f.x tube transforms the arm into something completely different. But I think it confusing and unhelpful to have an all funk f5 as tge "budget" arm -whilst the "top end" arm can be mistaken for just a gti rega 300. Needs fixing ak! (You will gather I have made the same point privately):doh:
Certainly the f.x tube transforms the arm into something completely different. But I think it confusing and unhelpful to have an all funk f5 as tge "budget" arm -whilst the "top end" arm can be mistaken for just a gti rega 300. Needs fixing ak! (You will gather I have made the same point privately):doh:
A sentiment, which I believe Marco shares wholeheartedly, which is what I was alluding to although I expressed it very poorly. Apologies. Wrist duly slapped, on both counts.
Arthur
Arkless Electronics
10-10-2013, 23:27
Well, not quite that I like talking about F.X per se but if you had created something you genuinely believed in and could demonstrate was a true step forward, wouldn't you be excited to talk about it and wouldn't you want others to enjoy what you were enjoying?
By contrast one only has to look at the impedance matched platter.
Again I did it, but financially got nothing for it. Now, however, manufacturers near and far are using it for you lot to enjoy.
Well, I've learnt my lesson. This time, it's me that's doing the shouting.
FXR really is damned good and you should try it, which sort of answers your question: Why the Rega?
We wanted to offer exceptional value for money and modding a Rega was an obvious choice.
How good is it?
It was launched at a Bristol where we demo'd FXR against SME and ARO using 1042s. To avoid complaints of "you've selected your stylus", if requested we swapped, using just the one stylus.
After the show and much to our surprise and obvious delight, someone then very kindly posted on another forum that Funk's FXR kept coming top, beating even his favourite arm, the ARO.
Since then, SME V and even Graham (an arm I respect) owners have opted for FXR and have not changed back.
One owner with three (expensive) decks has / uses three FXRs.
So we must be doing something right.
If you consider that in his case the upgrade only version costs £960, he’s kitted three decks out for about the price of an SME V.
Then there are people like Marco who have a mental block when it comes to Regas, which as you have been pointing out have some pretty obvious limitations.
I am also aware that it's not exactly the most impressive looking of arms, red tube or no red tube.
Well, worry not any longer.
Straight after Flamenca has settled down, FX3 (our in-house designed and built FXR replacement) is waiting to be released. :champagne:
(Still not sure whether to keep the red or return to something more adventurous, say black?:rolleyes:
This will be the start of start of a whole range of F.X derived arms that are currently on the design board, each more tantalisingly lunatic then the one before.
RE: Damping:
One would indeed think that a squidgy glue line would be a good thing. Listening tests during development, however, showed damping softens the transients.
A quick sidetrack: This particular aspect in fact goes hand in hand with our new SL1200 platter. Such consistency of results is comforting. I'll be elaborating on that next week.
In order to approach as true a transmission line as can be practically achieved then I really am after a rigid entity :eyebrows: - happy now, Richard! (Do I really have to stoop so low?)
In production tube tolerances vary, sometimes wildly. If you use just one size cross-member, half the time it either doesn’t fit at all or it falls in. Very tedious.
The easy fix would to make them undersize where they all fall in and then rely on the glue; for an FXR to perform as designed, however, as previous that is clear a "No Sir".
- recall, the stylus acceleration reaches 20,000g, which is one heck of a force. If the cross is not a specific fit, it won’t really do its job and because of this you can hear the differences in the fit / the way it's glued.
In production then we have a range of cross-members; each tube / cross set has to be individually tailored thereby ensuring sonic consistency.
Such time consuming close tolerance engineering is one reason for the upgrade price of the arm.
As you can hopefully see, trying to get the best from one's cartridge, the passive arm with all its weaknesses is really quite a fun thing to play with.
As an aside, I find it fascinating the degree to which people are concerned with the black art of cables, which we can’t measure, then changes in things that literally scream at us and which are dead easy to see by measurement and where listening is merely a formality, albeit a very enjoyable one.
Can anyone help in this regard?
You're not the only one Arthur!
Oldpinkman
11-10-2013, 06:49
I won't paste the whole article again, but pretty obviously given my previous posts,
+1 !
I think the problem is pocket money. And the demise of vinyl. You reach a point where you have a pretty decent system relative to whatever your budget is, but feel a need to keep "playing"
A new arm is £1000 or more. Ditto a sensible power amp upgrade. Both mean getting a new bathroom installed, or a wardrobe of dresses to get budget approval. There's no fun putting your pennies in a jar to save up. So you buy something nice and shiny and visible, and listen to how good it sounds. :doh:
I feel for you guys. I'm out of it and peddling tax returns instead of HiFi, and it still bothers me. I recall it was even less entertaining when I was working in the business. :(
Blimey, you make it sound like you worked in hi-fi 'man and boy' for 30 years! Was it 6 months you worked at PT?
Blimey, you make it sound like you worked in hi-fi 'man and boy' for 30 years! Was it 6 months you worked at PT?
Work? Who me? Sorry mate. Think you got the wrong guy.:eek:
Actually, it was Richard I was referring to.
Oh. Well. Not wishing to give anything away, but that goes double for him...
hifi_dave
11-10-2013, 14:42
Arthur, I hope you're not taking it too easy. I'm looking forward to the 'new' products.
Oldpinkman
11-10-2013, 15:36
Arthur, I hope you're not taking it too easy. I'm looking forward to the 'new' products.
You're a braver man than me with a comment like that. I'd leave my phone off the hook. Arthurs always busy. Occasionally productively :sofa:
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