Possible phono stage...?

[Haselsh1]

Further to making the decision to carry out a substantial upgrade of my hi-fi system I found that I had to spend around 700 pounds on my old van to keep it running ready for work. However, two nights ago, we had a hi-fi and music session with a dear old friend of mine who brought around a Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 SE phono stage with the beefed up power supply. We were doing a comparison against the phono stage built in to my Rotel RC-850 preamp which I have now been using for about three months since purchasing it along with monoblocked RB-850 power amps.

The source was my modified Project RPM-4 with standard tonearm and my Ortofon OM30 cartridge which will very soon be upgraded by the addition of an OM40 stylus. Loudspeakers were my recently acquired KEF Q500’s which are now bedded in nicely.

The Graham Slee phono stage was very good indeed but also quite disappointing. I already get a fabulous stereo image from the Rotel but the Slee had a much better bass in terms of amount, power and definition. The midrange was very good and presented music in a different way to the Rotel but to my ears and my partners Sue, it certainly wasn’t massively better. Altogether, over my Rotel preamp, I don’t think the Gram Amp 2 SE is a worthy 430 pound upgrade so I was wondering, would the Era Gold V produce the same but much more…? OK this phono stage is around 565 pounds with power supply and for 500 pounds I could purchase a gorgeous Croft phono stage so, Era Gold V or Croft…? I am seriously not sure.

The stylus upgrade will be going ahead in about three weeks after the next payday with the phono stage being upgraded during January of next year. I have plenty of time to think through things and buy more vinyl but the extra 65 quid of the Era Gold V would buy quite a few vinyl records. I am looking for a cavernous stereo image with a stunningly natural midrange. Bass should be good, treble needs to be super smooth and possibly slightly rolled off.

As always folks, I appreciate your comments as they are of value to me.

[DSJR]

Some swear by fancy phono stages and others are happy with relatively humble ones. Slee has mixed comments I found, some liking them and others being disappointed. A fussy pal uses Pro-ject Phono Box SE and loves it in comparison with dearer ones he's tried, including a Slee model.

[twotone]

I had a Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 SE sans fancy PSU until I sold it recently and thought it was very good indeed especially for the price I paid for it which was £150.

I've currently got Firebottle's valve phono on loan so if your thinking about buying a Croft RIAA then you really need to hear the Firebottle.

I had a Croft Micro Basic pre-amp with the on board phono stage and IMO the Firebottle is as least as good as the phono stage in that preamp but I find valve phono stages a wee bit in your face, not 'shouty' per se but a bit more 'clean' I think which can border on ear hurting sound.

Don't get me wrong the Firebottle is an excellent MM phono stage but I don't think valve phono stages are for me to be honest.

BTW, Croft only does MM phono stages far as I know.

[John]

Lots of good phono stages at that kind of price Try the Ifi its has a lot of flexibility
Perhaps speak to Glen he might build you something

[Firebottle]

Shaun, if you want to give the loan unit a try there is no charge. Just post it on to the next person to request a trial.
Send twotone your address and he will send it to you :)

:cool: Alan

[StuN]

After a lot of listening, I replaced my Gram Amp2SE with the Firebottle, but then I like valves........!

[YNWaN]

With turntables it's source first - deck, arm, cartridge

[Arkless Electronics]

I make a phono stage which has been getting rave reviews.... The Arkless 640P. Google it ;)

[Firebottle]

... but I find valve phono stages a wee bit in your face, not 'shouty' per se but a bit more 'clean' I think which can border on ear hurting sound.

Don't get me wrong the Firebottle is an excellent MM phono stage but I don't think valve phono stages are for me to be honest.

Tony, the prototype Firebottle phono you have doesn't have any extra capacitive loading on the input. This may make the sound a little bright depending if the arm leads/interconnect capacitance is low.

:cool: Alan

[Ali Tait]

Nick's phono stage is better than anything else at or near the price that I've heard up to now. I'll be getting one myself when funds allow.

[Tarzan]

When l had the Firebottle, bright would be the last thing l would describe it as- oh well horses for courses:).

[Anti Meep]

Shaun, try and get the Slee on trial. Your own ears are the best judge. I love my DV P75mk2 but heard one of the "bigger" Slee's once and found it really musical. If I were to change phono stages I'd have the Slee on my short list.
As always it's horses for courses. There aren't any "bad" phono stages that I'm aware of. They all fit somewhere.
Craig.

[Firebottle]

Andy it's been upgraded since then.
There was a definite treble roll off which has been corrected :thumbsup:

Alan

[twotone]

Tony, the prototype Firebottle phono you have doesn't have any extra capacitive loading on the input. This may make the sound a little bright depending if the arm leads/interconnect capacitance is low.

:cool: Alan

Hi Alan, interconnects are Mark Grant canare LV-61S, believe they are low capacitance cables, they're 75ohm coax cables.

Would different cables really make a difference to the sound?

I have another set of inter connnects Cambridge Audio Atlantic cables, I could try those?

Thanks

Tony

[Firebottle]

Nothing lost in trying them Tony.
It's all down to what capacitance loading is best for your cartridge. The prototype phono amp adds little capacitance.

The finished version has a loading of 80pF on the inputs, to allow around 140pF for the capacitance of arm leads and interconnects, adding up to the commonly specified loading of 220pF.

:cool: Alan

[Arkless Electronics]

It's 100pF on the Arkless 640P for the same reason....

[Haselsh1]

Shaun, try and get the Slee on trial. Your own ears are the best judge. I love my DV P75mk2 but heard one of the "bigger" Slee's once and found it really musical. If I were to change phono stages I'd have the Slee on my short list.
As always it's horses for courses. There aren't any "bad" phono stages that I'm aware of. They all fit somewhere.
Craig.

Craig, the Slee design I listened to in my system was the Gram Amp 2 SE and one thing I would say about it was that it was musical. It was so much better than the built in Rotel phono stage but with the beefed up power supply it is 430 bloody quid and I didn't hear 430 quid's worth of betterness. I will probably give the Firebottle a go as I have absolutely nothing to lose but the next Slee up in the running is 565 quid whereas a Croft phono stage is only 500. My preference would be the Croft unless the Firebottle is up there with it and appreciably cheaper.

[Firebottle]

....unless the Firebottle is up there with it and appreciably cheaper.

Shaun, I put these out at £230 + P+P at £20.
If you don't like it that's fine, everyone has there own taste :cool:

Alan

[Arkless Electronics]

My solid state Arkless 640P is about the same price when allowing for buying a second hand 640P to have modified.

[Ammonite Audio]

My solid state Arkless 640P is about the same price when allowing for buying a second hand 640P to have modified.

http://www.spam-uk.com/images/products/SPAM-blackpepper.png

Am I the only person who is bothered by such spamming of a product. I thought that Trade Impressions was the place for promotion and discussion of products such as this?

[Arkless Electronics]

http://www.spam-uk.com/images/products/SPAM-blackpepper.png

Am I the only person who is bothered by such spamming of a product. I thought that Trade Impressions was the place for promotion and discussion of products such as this?

Please yerself pal. The subject is phono stages. I supply one which is promoted purely on forums and unheard of outside of forums. so, unless I let people know of it's existence it may well go unmentioned in "what phono stage should I get" type threads. You don't seem to have a problem with Firebottle doing the same then... Personally I wish him every success and I'm sure the market is big enough for both of us (especially as his is valve and mine SS.... for now), but I was selling phono stages by promoting them exclusively on forums first (AFAIK) and I'm not about to stop now. If I see a thread asking about phono stages I will let people know about mine. That, and recommendations from customers, is how I sell them. There are now loads of rave reviews on my product (on forums) from very satisfied customers, but if someone has never heard of me then they won't know what to Google for ;)

[Marco]

Please yerself pal. The subject is phono stages. I supply one which is promoted purely on forums and unheard of outside of forums. so, unless I let people know of it's existence it may well go unmentioned in "what phono stage should I get" type threads. You don't seem to have a problem with Firebottle doing the same then... Personally I wish him every success and I'm sure the market is big enough for both of us (especially as his is valve and mine SS.... for now), but I was selling phono stages by promoting them exclusively on forums first (AFAIK) and I'm not about to stop now. If I see a thread asking about phono stages I will let people know about mine. That, and recommendations from customers, is how I sell them.


Hi Jez,

I have no problem with the above in principle, and please understand that we would like to help support your business as much as possible and ensure its continued success, especially as high-quality specialist products from small manufacturers are particularly valued here on AoS.

However, the trade area mainly facilitates the purpose of our trade members promoting their products, and much as we allow them to make appropriate recommendations for their products and services out with of that, during relevant discussions elsewhere on the forum, it's a question of balance.

At the moment the balance of your activity, in terms of actively promoting your products, is tipped more towards the latter than the former. Therefore, if you could redress that balance a little, and use the trade area more, which I assure you is read by hundreds of people every day and back-links very effectively to various search engines, and in turn will most certainly help sell your products, I'd be much obliged :)

Assuring you of our consideration of your best interests at all times.

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Hi Jez,

I have no problem with the above in principle, and please understand that we would like to help support your business as much as possible and ensure its continued success, especially as high-quality specialist products from small manufacturers are particularly valued here on AoS.

However, the trade area mainly facilitates the purpose of our trade members promoting their products, and much as we allow them to make appropriate recommendations for their products and services out with of that, during relevant discussions elsewhere on the forum, it's a question of balance.

At the moment the balance of your activity, in terms of actively promoting your products, is tipped more towards the latter than the former. Therefore, if you could redress that balance a little, and use the trade area more, which I assure you is read by hundreds of people every day and back-links very effectively to various search engines, and in turn will most certainly help sell your products, I'd be much obliged :)

Assuring you of our consideration of your best interests at all times.

Marco.

IMHO... I'm doing nothing more than letting people who may have never of heard of me know that I exist,,,,, Maybe Alan "Firebottle" should change his status to "trade" (sorry Alan , nothing personal!) when doing the same...

Often when people come on to sites such as AOS to ask about, for example, phono stages, they will list the models they have read about in the press (which, yes, may one day include myself) and do not have the likes of myself, or Alan. on their shortlist because they have never heard of us! Often a satisfied customer will pipe up and give a recommendation... but if they haven't seen earlier threads then usually the OP will ask about things he has read about in the magazines and not even be aware that alternatives exist!

I would hope that if an OP asks "I'm looking for a new phono stage and have seen the Acme XXY and the Heinz XYZ in the magazines, which one should I go for?" then It should be OK for the likes of myself to say "here I am. I exist"?

I very much doubt that anyone with such a dilemma as to what to buy would check out the trade area.... Just saying

[Marco]

I would hope that if an OP asks "I'm looking for a new phono stage and have seen the Acme XXY and the Heinz XYZ in the magazines, which one should I go for?" then It should be OK for the likes of myself to say "here I am. I exist"?


To a point yes, as long as it doesn't become too blatant and only occurs in threads which specifically state that the OP is looking for a new phono stage. However, your main 'shop window', as it were, should always be the trade room. Therefore, please use that more often for advertising.

What a lot of trade members do is create very detailed and informative ads, with pictures, in the trade room (often linking to products shown on their website), and then add links to that in their signatures on forum posts.

Currently, you simply have a link to your website in your signature, but in there you could also have a link (or links) to ads you've placed in the trade room, which inform potential customers of exactly what they need to know about your phono stage - and crucially, that they will see every time you post on the forum. These will also back-link to Google.

That done, if there's a specific product or service you wish to target for a potential customer, all you would need to do then is post a link to your relevant ad(s) in the trade room, on appropriate threads where people are asking about new phono stages, without having to go into a spiel about it each time, which would in turn lessen the sense of 'spamming'. Job done! :cool:

Essentially, Jez, you must use the trade room more as your main tool for advertising, thus lessening the impact on the forum of you promoting yourself during discussions out with of that area :)

Marco.

[twotone]

I've just recieved the Arkless modded CA 640P and only word word to describe it.

Wow!

Bouncy is another, as is timing, and rythm, it's all there.

More later when I've recovered:eek:

Oh, did I mention bass?:cool:

[Haselsh1]

OK, so I have now had the Firebottle valve phono stage in my system for a day and would like to set out my findings with it. I am using an Ortofon OM30 on a Project RPM-4 with standard arm into the Firebottle and then into a set of Rotel RC850 pre and RB850 mono power amps. Loudspeakers are KEF Q500's.

The treble is simply exquisite with stunning detail on Ozric Tentacles cymbals. Using the album 'Arborescence' the grainy, powdery sound of cymbals is completely clear and precise with no nasties whatsoever. The midrange is typical valve and is to die for. There is detail and resolution that I have only ever heard before using a Croft Micro 25 preamp with multi layered threads within the music easily exposed. The bass is a massive let down though and ultimately, I simply cannot live with it. The bottom end is overblown and bloated and completely overpowering. Even on old recordings which have been made at a relatively low level like Dire Straits 'Dire Straits' the bass swamps the music in this completely overblown way which makes me want to turn it off. Switching to CD restores the clarity, sharpness and stereo imaging and the even balance of the bass with a really solid definition and power. Using Eleanor McEvoy 'Yola' produces the most astonishing sound on SACD which tells me that maybe I should be leaving vinyl well alone and saving my money towards an MDAC.

[Firebottle]

Hi Shaun,

Thanks for the mini review, just to point out to others that this is the prototype phono in the blue box enclosure.

Very interesting comments on the bass being overblown, with that I assume you are meaning there is too much of it?
The frequency response is engineered to go very low, well below 10Hz, as appears common with high performance phono stages.
The response could be tailored to drop off below 20Hz with a change to a few components.

I wonder what the consensus of opinion is regarding an extended low frequency response?

:cool: Alan

[twotone]

Hi Shaun,

Thanks for the mini review, just to point out to others that this is the prototype phono in the blue box enclosure.

Very interesting comments on the bass being overblown, with that I assume you are meaning there is too much of it?
The frequency response is engineered to go very low, well below 10Hz, as appears common with high performance phono stages.
The response could be tailored to drop off below 20Hz with a change to a few components.

I wonder what the consensus of opinion is regarding an extended low frequency response?

:cool: Alan

Hi Alan, my experience with the Firebottle more or less mirrors that of Shuan's. I couldn't really listen to it after a while and had to use the integrated amp's phono stage when listening to vinyl.

Like Shaun I though it was exceptionally clean sounding but just too much music coming at you like a wall of sound.

I enjoyed the amp initially but really gave up on it after a few days there was a bit of a change when I replaced the ICs on the output side to my amp I think.

Kind regards

Tony

[Haselsh1]

Very interesting comments on the bass being overblown, with that I assume you are meaning there is too much of it?
Alan

I don't mean there is too much bass just that there is an almost total lack of definition which kind of mirrors my findings in the past with valve amps except the Croft. The bass with this phono stage is waffly and loose and simply overblown when compared to CD and SACD which is as I expect bass to be. The midrange is staggering and once it has warmed up, the treble is delicious but the bass is just far too obvious and spoils the whole package however the sound is full and warm and exceptionally 'analogue' which has to be a good thing for some folk out there.

[Firebottle]

Comments accepted chaps, this is the prototype unit though.

The production version has had some not so subtle changes to the first stage biasing and uses a different valve for the second stage.
Unfortunately, or stupidly, I haven't managed to compare the two directly :doh:

:cool: Alan

[StuN]

Must step in here.

I have a 'production' Firebottle and in my system the bass is extended, firm and well defined; certainly not 'overblown and bloated'.

Stuart

[Spur07]

Yeah, no problem with my Firebottle either, I tested it against my Twisted Pear Buffalo II (32s) Dac yesterday evening.

John had the prototype for a while, if there was a problem with the bass he would have surely commented on it.

[Haselsh1]

In defence of this very fine phono stage I must add that I have 'tamed' the bass quite a bit by using much leaner sounding set of interconnects. The bass now is much better than it was but still not what I expect from my music reproduction. The midrange remains staggering and the treble is truly excellent but only after an hour or so of warming up. In short, I would say that this phono stage is everything one would expect from a valve device but a fraction of the cost of a production unit.

[Haselsh1]

I would also like to add that the bass is inferior to the Graham Slee I listened to a week or so back but the midrange and treble are superior only when fully warmed up. The stereo image is on a par with the Slee.

[Stratmangler]

Has the Slee been permanently powered up?
It's meant to be left on permanently.

[Haselsh1]

Has the Slee been permanently powered up?
It's meant to be left on permanently.

No Chris, the Slee was not permanently powered up as it was transported to my home for the demo. It is a superb phono stage though and so damn musical.

[Stratmangler]

I only asked because the warm up time for a Slee phono stage is around about a week ...

[twotone]

No Chris, the Slee was not permanently powered up as it was transported to my home for the demo. It is a superb phono stage though and so damn musical.

The Slee is meant to be left on 247 Shaun.

[walpurgis]

Has the Slee been permanently powered up?
It's meant to be left on permanently.

My experience is that having to leave a Slee phono stage on "24/7" is a bit of a red herring. My ERA Gold V certainly improves steadily over the first hour of use from cold, but after that any improvement is negligible.

From then onwards it just remains superb!

[Stratmangler]

My experience is that having to leave a Slee phono stage on "24/7" is a bit of a red herring. My ERA Gold V certainly improves steadily over the first hour of use from cold, but after that any improvement is negligible.

From then onwards it just remains superb!

What about from powering up from new?
Mine took over a week to stabilise.
I seldom power it down nowadays, so it's not an issue, but when I disconnect it to take it somewhere else there is always a warm up period of an hour or two before it starts to sound right again.

After that, as you say, it just sounds superb :)

[Arkless Electronics]

Nothing should need to be left on 24/7. It will just wear it out tout sweet.... Hang on I repair stuff.... EVERYTHING should be left on 24/7! :eyebrows:

[Stratmangler]

Nothing should need to be left on 24/7. It will just wear it out tout sweet.... Hang on I repair stuff.... EVERYTHING should be left on 24/7! :eyebrows:

If your work is as good as you claim then why don't you design and build your own stuff?
As far as repairing things goes - I've had my phono stage for over a decade, and when it dies I'll probably get a newer one from the same maker.

[twotone]

Nothing should need to be left on 24/7. It will just wear it out tout sweet.... Hang on I repair stuff.... EVERYTHING should be left on 24/7! :eyebrows:

I left two Sugden A21a amps on 247 for 18 months cause I read that they sounded better if they were never switched off, cost me a fortune in electricity, at one point I was using 32 kw hours a day although that wasn't all down to the amps.

[walpurgis]

I left two Sugden A21a amps on 247 for 18 months cause I read that they sounded better if they were never switched off, cost me a fortune in electricity, at one point I was using 32 kw hours a day although that wasn't all down to the amps.

That's just nuts! :eyebrows:

[Spur07]

Naim audio users leave their amps on 24/7 - and I'll say no more :D

[Yomanze]

I used to keep everything on until my DAC designer recommended that I turn it off when not in use due to everything running in Class A. Also, am not sure if the lightbulbs only breaking when switched on analogy is relevant to HiFi else we'd have kit popping its clogs when switched on. Surely good components are designed so that thermal cycling isn't an issue?

[Yomanze]

This doesn't negate the fact that my kit sounds a touch brighter until it's warmed up for 15mins or so.

[twotone]

That's just nuts! :eyebrows:


Tell me about it, fortunately I saw sense sold the amps and sorted out the overuse of the electricity.

We're now down to about 10kw hours a day now.