View Full Version : Careless torque costs lives? Getting the SL1200 platter right
Marco raised the subject of excessive torque creating a problem for a hifi turntable and it was an excellent point and exploring it, it is worthy of a new thread.
The issue of designing a motor and motor/platter system is critical to getting the best performance in a turntable and has always been a matter given careful consideration in Pink Triangle and Funk designs. In the past I was plagued by the myth of “slowing under load” and forced into using an AC motor – which for reasons I can easily explain is greatly inferior to the DC solution adopted at Funk.
However – do you remember this one from the 70s? I sure as hell do… Direct Drives hunt - whereas, of course the ubiquitous AC motor is well-nigh perfect.
Well, there’s no contradicting that AC systems, (motor + PSU) hold speed de-facto - no matter how crudely.
By contrast to make DC systems (belt or direct drive) perform even basically, considerable effort is required. I have always considered it to be worth the effort
Many people and on this forum have used our original platter. We are about to launch our new platter for the Technics SL1200 and in developing it we have had to address not only the platter material and its affect on the sound, but the platter as an integral part of the Technics motor. We think we’ve got it right and we are happy to reject the nonsense that once plagued us and endorse the SL1200.
Arthur
Congrats Arthur , now that's done How about a proper suspended funk firm anniversary next ,
Paul
kininigin
03-10-2013, 18:33
Any more details on the differences between the old and new platter? Had no idea you were designing a new one!
I hadn't got as far with my Technics on the platter front,so am very interested in what you have come up with!!
Oldpinkman
03-10-2013, 18:34
Oh funk Arthur . This place is already a bloody techie shrine. Do you have to encourage them? :doh:
Hi Arthur,
How's it going, mate? Hope you are well, and great to see you popping in to say hello! Richard has been 'entertaining' us here for a while now with his daily pearls of wisdom... When do his batteries run out? :eyebrows:
Only joking, Richard! ;)
Anyway, yes, the torque issue is an interesting one. It's something that I discovered a while ago, after finding out that in a direct-drive design, I was wrong in thinking that one could never have too much... As usual, however, such simplistic thinking can cause one to miss the bigger (and more important) picture....!
It's a bit like platter mass, which needs just as much careful consideration, and the reason why I ended up preferring yours to the Mike New one, on my SL-1210. So...... You now have a brand new platter for the Technics, eh? Sounds very intriguing, so what's it like/called and when can I get a listen? :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
03-10-2013, 20:55
How long does it take to burn in? :eyebrows:
kininigin
03-10-2013, 21:07
How long does it take to burn in? :eyebrows:
Depends whether you're on 33 or 45rpm!
Arthur's a bit of a tease isn't he? Getting us all juiced up then sodding off :lol:
Depends whether you're on 33 or 45rpm!
Arthur's a bit of a tease isn't he? Getting us all juiced up then sodding off :lol:
Treat em mean...keep em keen!;)
Hey guys,
Denver is next weekend and we're really tied up dealing with "quality" British suppliers, trying to get our new Flamenca turntable out to it.
We've got to get it shipped and get info onto the website and so on. At £850, this will be our base model, so doesn't get into the rarified regions we are talking about here.
If we start to explore various drive aspects, then some of its considerations might appear which we can compare and contrast, for as I hope you'll agree when you see it, it has a few unexpected surprises up its sleeve.
In starting this thread, however, I was hoping to get other people's take on drive philosophies.
As for the new platter, 'tis completely different and new, so more anon - anyway, Dalek's has one to play with right now for a review.
Back to the grind stone...
Oldpinkman
04-10-2013, 05:30
I could be a tease buster. I haven't got photos but I could dish the dirt. I had one to play with weeks ago when evaluating cartridge or phono stage for one of our glaswegian chums. Best give him a few hours yet or he'll sulk.
Never mind fannying about with dj decks Arthur, how's my ney platter, springs and ali wedges coming along? Focus on your priorities man!
:ner:
kininigin
04-10-2013, 07:15
Interesting,that the platter is completely new! Shall look forward to hearing more about it,in the not too distant future i hope!
Regarding torque and different drive methods,i'll have to bow out as i'm not too clued up on that! I have only ever used a Technics and never heard any other 'Hi-Fi' TT!!!
I'm guessing you just need the right material/weight which has as little resonance as possible while maintaining constant stable pitch??
Have you gone for a completely different platter material???
Treat em mean...keep em keen!
In starting this thread, however, I was hoping to get other people's take on drive philosophies.
Lol... Well, for me, there's always something 'right' about the musical presentation of a good direct-drive or idler turntable; it's the sense of 'effortlessness' and solidity that I like, together with their propulsive drive and 'heft', in the bass, which I find highly addictive and that I feel is largely missing in 90% of the belt-drive turntables I've heard, although of course I haven't heard many of your recent designs :)
One of the things I love about judiciously modified Technics SL-1200s/1210s is their 'master-tape accuracy', as with the best modified units there is little sense that one is listening to a needle tracking a groove (this of course assumes the use of pristine vinyl). The best modified Technics SL-1200/1210s can also sound rather 'digital-like' (but that's only digital at its best), such is the lack of any audible distortions (presuming of course that all aspects of set-up have been optimised) or any obvious colorations normally associated with vinyl replay.
Essentially, it's the sense of 'unhindered freedom' that the best modified Technics T/Ts bring to music, which in my experience makes them unique from any other T/T I have heard. Furthermore, it's about the sense of security and stability that they provide, and as such one can truly 'relax into' the music with the confidence that nothing is liable to go awry at any given minute, which I find is often the case with belt-drive T/Ts - certainly the low to medium-mass variety. High-mass string-driven beasts, such as the Platine Verdier, and others of its ilk, are much better in that regard.
However, I'm sure your views on that will be somewhat different... ;)
"As for the new platter, 'tis completely different and new, so more anon - anyway, Dalek's has one to play with right now for a review."
Cool... Well, when Neil's finished with it, perhaps he could send it onto me for a listen, where I will also review it in the context of my system. I have more time now to do these things, so I'm sure that others here would find my observations (together with those of Neil) rather interesting :cool:
Marco.
kininigin
04-10-2013, 07:46
Lol... Well, for me, there's always something 'right' about the musical presentation of a good direct-drive or idler turntable; it's their sense of 'effortlessness' and solidity that I like, together with their propulsive drive and 'heft', in the bass, which is find highly addictive and that I feel is largely missing in 90% of the belt-drive turntables I've heard, although of course I haven't heard many of your recent designs :)
It's this aspect of the Technics which is most appealing to me,as it's key,imo,to the type of music i mostly listen to! As i have said,i've never heard any other 'Hi-Fi' TT and certainly not a belt drive,but if what marco says about them has validity,then i'm not likely to be interested in them i suspect!!
Oldpinkman
04-10-2013, 07:59
Oh boy
I suspect a sucker-punch coming somewhere... The boy makes belt drive for a reason. However, he'll tell you dc beats ac if you ask him nicely (Careful how you ask Arthur AC DC questions - or he'll go off thread :lol:)
To do a bit of teasing myself, balance servos and hunting are part of why "just damping with a bit of blue tak" are not reference solutions. And Arthur, after years of being an old softie, has found that for platters and tonearms you need a good stiff one. Mrs S has endorsed this, and says the concept extends beyond just platters and tonearms...:eek:
kininigin
04-10-2013, 08:02
Oh boy
I suspect a sucker-punch coming somewhere... The boy makes belt drive for a reason.
Cost of designing and implementing a direct drive tt to a small customer base??
It's this aspect of the Technics which is most appealing to me,as it's key,imo,to the type of music i mostly listen to! As i have said,i've never heard any other 'Hi-Fi' TT and certainly not a belt drive,but if what marco says about them has validity,then i'm not likely to be interested in them i suspect!!
In my experience, Darren, most belt-drive T/Ts tend to sound somewhat 'soft', in comparison. Aside from the sense of effortlessness and stability that the best direct-drives (and to an extent idlers) provide, I love how they 'push' music at you with an addictive 'impetus', but rarely in a way that appears as false.
Belt-drive T/Ts, even the best ones, tend to have more of a 'laidback' (although the best ones most certainly not boring), 'finessed'/polished presentation, which major more on delicacy, fine detail retrieval and perhaps (ultimate) resolution, especially in the all-important midrange, which can make some (even very highly-modified) Technics T/Ts sound a little more 'distant' or maladroit, in that respect.
I could go on here, but at the end of the day it's ALL a compromise, and so there is no one universally 'best' turntable drive system. You simply have to choose what is best for you (in your system), and most importantly, the sonic and musical presentation that your ears consider as being the most enjoyable and lifelike (the latter for me is the 'holy grail', in any aspect of audio), with your chosen favourite music :)
Marco.
kininigin
04-10-2013, 08:23
In my experience, Darren, most belt-drive T/Ts tend to sound somewhat 'soft', in comparison. Aside from the sense of effortlessness and stability that the best direct-drives (and to an extent idlers) provide, I love how they 'push' music at you, but never in a way that appears as false.
Belt-drive T/Ts tend to have more of a 'laidback' (although the best ones most certainly not boring), 'finessed'/polished presentation, which majors more on delicacy and detail retrieval, especially in the all-important midrange, which can make some (even very highly modified) Technics T/Ts sound a little more 'distant' or maladroit, in that respect.
Marco.
It's the core aspects of the music i listen to which is more important to me,rather than a more laidback,polished,delicate and detailed presentation! Those aspects are still important to me (not so much the laidback quality!) but are secondary aspects! Which is why i found the Technics/Jelco/SC35C such a perfect match for me i guess! God i miss my TT :lol:
Yup, we all have different priorities. That is why, at the end of the day, all we can do when selecting ANY turntable (or any other piece of hi-fi equipment) is choose our compromises, because the fact is that the pursuit of high-fidelity audio is all ONE BIG COMPROMISE! :exactly:
Essentially, it's about identifying the aspects of music replay your ears and brain 'tune into' most, and going with the kit that best provides those qualities.
Marco.
Yup, we all have different priorities. That is why, at the end of the day, all we can do when selecting ANY turntable (or any other piece of hi-fi equipment) is choose our compromises, because the fact is that the pursuit of high-fidelity audio is all ONE BIG COMPROMISE! :exactly:
Essentially, it's about identifying the aspects of music replay your ears and brain 'tune into' most, and going with the kit that best provides those qualities.
Marco.
+1 , Sagely wisdom that.(we need a wise owl smiley)
I'm just waiting for someone to do a proper suspended DD turntable :scratch:
Paul
Oldpinkman
04-10-2013, 09:13
+1 , Sagely wisdom that.(we need a wise owl smiley)
I'm just waiting for someone to do a proper suspended DD turntable :scratch:
Paul
Like a Pioneer P3a you mean? If I want to pimp my PT (and I do) - how hard is it to canibalise a Vestax , Pioneer, Sony, or - Technics for a motor ? As Marco mentioned, some other compromises are relevant. The Anniversary was intended as a final reference statement turntable - and went DC at a time market forces and a stray dustbug had sent Pink AC in the main range. Belt drive DC. Yes, hand crafting DD motors in a Tibetan monestary would put the cost into the whisky cask category, but you can buy OEM parts from big manufacturers. Who do you think manufactures the DAC chip in a Bushmaster? :scratch:
Go on arthur. Tell them about that nice man Mr Colloms and his dustbug :sofa:
No not like a P3a, I said proper:)
I remember the AC/DC debate well and thought Colloms was a :wanker:
Bought an Anni in may 91 at the Listening rooms and have never wanted to improve it really However your mutterrings of a new platter for your PT
has got me interested as in I WANT ONE TOO Please.
Paul
Oldpinkman
04-10-2013, 09:25
No not like a P3a, I said proper:)
I remember the AC/DC debate well and thought Colloms was a :wanker:
Bought an Anni in may 91 at the Listening rooms and have never wanted to improve it really However your mutterrings of a new platter for your PT
has got me interested as in I WANT ONE TOO Please.
Paul
If we get it to work - I'll let you know :)
If we get it to work - I'll let you know :)
Thanks Richard I would really appreciate that ,:thumbsup:
Paul
Ali Tait
04-10-2013, 09:54
Lol... Well, for me, there's always something 'right' about the musical presentation of a good direct-drive or idler turntable; it's the sense of 'effortlessness' and solidity that I like, together with their propulsive drive and 'heft', in the bass, which I find highly addictive and that I feel is largely missing in 90% of the belt-drive turntables I've heard, although of course I haven't heard many of your recent designs :)
One of the things I love about judiciously modified Technics SL-1200s/1210s is their 'master-tape accuracy', as with the best modified units there is little sense that one is listening to a needle tracking a groove (this of course assumes the use of pristine vinyl). The best modified Technics SL-1200/1210s can also sound rather 'digital-like' (but that's only digital at its best), such is the lack of any audible distortions (presuming of course that all aspects of set-up have been optimised) or any obvious colorations normally associated with vinyl replay.
Essentially, it's the sense of 'unhindered freedom' that the best modified Technics T/Ts bring to music, which in my experience makes them unique from any other T/T I have heard. Furthermore, it's about the sense of security and stability that they provide, and as such one can truly 'relax into' the music with the confidence that nothing is liable to go awry at any given minute, which I find is often the case with belt-drive T/Ts - certainly the low to medium-mass variety. High-mass string-driven beasts, such as the Platine Verdier, and others of its ilk, are much better in that regard.
However, I'm sure your views on that will be somewhat different... ;)
Cool... Well, when Neil's finished with it, perhaps he could send it onto me for a listen, where I will also review it in the context of my system. I have more time now to do these things, so I'm sure that others here would find my observations (together with those of Neil) rather interesting :cool:
Marco.
Funny you should say, when you brought your deck to Owston, that was my immediate impression, that it sounded like a cd player.
:scratch:
Go on arthur. Tell them about that nice man Mr Colloms and his dustbug :sofa:
Crikey, seems people are interested.
OK. Quickly:
Its not a case of arrogance on my part that from day one I’ve been championing the DC motor whilst the “bigger they are the harder they fall brigade” resolutely fought their corner, till came the day that they have had to eat humble pie and follow my lead, (albeit some 30 years late).
No. To my mind, after such a long battle, the question is “Why the change?”
The answer, glib but true: DC motors (for turntables) inherently “sound” better.
The AC motor’s Achillies heel is a low level “wibbling” it gives to the reproduction. This is a by-product of its operation that the ear finds unsettling and hates. By contrast, the ear is pretty tolerant of and insensitive to minor s-l-o-w drift over time.
The “wibbling”, BTW, is a by-product of the operation of the AC motor and comes from the magnetic poles (typically 24), which deliver the power and the AC swings positive and negative. These poles produce low-frequency, high-amplitude cogging at about 100 Hz. (for the purists: the “about” refers to the variations between 50HZ and 60Hz mains supplies). This is felt quite easily when holding the motor. Anchor the motor doesn’t help as the cogging transfers to the rotor…which drives the platter. Not exactly an ideal situation.
To make matters worse, this characteristic can be amplified by the belt / platter load. All in all, quite a problem.
So one wonders how it is that having derided the hunting of the DD servo, those DC de-bunkers failed to hear AC motor cogging in their own back yard, something which is almost absent from the DC motor…(Or did they? Was it a case of the best from of defence is attack: How many PSU improvements have there been for the AC motor? This indicative of a pervasive ill-ease with the performance, resulting ultimately in the climb down and acceptance of the DC motor.)
For my part I need look only to PT Too / Export / LPT where at commercial gunpoint I was forced to adopt the AC motor. (Yuk. Phrrt. Pt-ooey)
At day one, Pink T’s highly elaborate AC Pacesetter circuit was laboratory standard. It was streets ahead of the competition. You don’t get any better. Period. But despite the “system” being as near perfect as humanly possible, as we will see, I could never be happy.
The problem I was facing was the erroneous test procedure employed in evaluating slowing-under-load or dynamic wow.
For now I leave it that there is no such thing as dynamic wow.
No, I'm not ducking it, carriers are arriving after lunch.
If anyone is interested I can go into but it will take a bit of writing up.
...and I have things to say in support the use of a belt drive system, not so much "over DDs" but that they hold their own, very nicely, thank you. In belt drives holding their own, I also totally accept the benefits of the DD.
Cheers.
Arthur
Funny you should say, when you brought your deck to Owston, that was my immediate impression, that it sounded like a cd player.
Lol - I trust you mean that in a good sense?
If so, I agree, as indeed I outlined earlier. My turntable has undergone many changes and improvements since you last heard it, taking it even more in that direction (in terms of solidity and stability), but along with a soupcon of 'analogue addictiveness', being brought into the equation, with the addition of the Ortofon SPU and its matching tonearm. I think it's important with Technics direct-drive T/Ts (such as the SL-1200/1210 and SP10) to partner them with a 'musical sounding' tonearm and cartridge, and not ones that are 'too hi-fi', in order to avoid sterility.
You have to create the right balance, as synergy is important! :)
For me, all good turntables should sound similar to the best CD players or digital streamers, as essentially this is what an 'accurate' sound is about (i.e. one closest to retrieving and reproducing the musical information contained on a given recording), whilst imposing as little of the 'sonic signature' of the reproduction device as possible onto the music. I strive to achieve that as much as possible with every component in my system.
If I close my eyes, while listening to music, and I can hear that I'm very obviously listening to a turntable (in a bad sense, which continual clicks and pops, wow and flutter, and all the usual associated distortions and colorations), then that annoys the hell out of me! I simply could not live with it. The fact is, I don't own a turntable because I like a 'warm sound'.
In terms of your CD player comment, when sitting downstairs in the lounge, listening to music on the Celestion 66s (powered from the system upstairs), and where there is no other equipment visible in the room, other than the speakers, I can honestly say that I sometimes forget what it is I'm listening to: the CD player or the turntable (as both are very natural and realistic sounding music-makers) - and that is exactly how I like it!! :exactly:
Marco.
Crikey, seems people are interested.
So one wonders how it is that having derided the hunting of the DD servo, those DC de-bunkers failed to hear AC motor cogging in their own back yard, something which is almost absent from the DC motor…(Or did they? Was it a case of the best from of defence is attack: How many PSU improvements have there been for the AC motor? This indicative of a pervasive ill-ease with the performance, resulting ultimately in the climb down and acceptance of the DC motor.)
Spot on, Arthur. One of the things I loved about PT, in the 'old days', was how they were never afraid to challenge the then 'accepted norm', bucking trends, and in way which smacked of 'fuck it, we'll show 'em!' - Simply because you knew that you were right and wanted to prove it! I'm somewhat like that with my championing of the modified Technics.
I know that it gets up some people's noses, and they'd rather that this 'humble little DJ deck' would just disappear into the ether, but the championing of it will continue here on AoS, firstly because I know just how good the T/T can be with some judicious modifications, but also because I take great joy (as I suspect you once did) in poking 'the establishment' in the eye with a sharp stick!! ;)
Besides, I’ve always enjoyed being a heretic... :eyebrows:
That PT as a company or its products weren't as successful as they should've been was more down to the Linn/Michell/Rega, etc, brainwashing that existed back then [and indeed to an extent still continues now, which is why those afflicted find participating on this site unpalatable], and how sheep-like folk were in those days, than the performance of any of the PT equipment. Indeed some of it was genuinely innovative and ground-breaking, even to this day, which is why (as you know) I hold you in the utmost respect as an audio designer. If only there were more like you today......
"...and I have things to say in support the use of a belt drive system, not so much "over DDs" but that they hold their own, very nicely, thank you. In belt drives holding their own, I also totally accept the benefits of the DD."
Yup – as much as I totally accept the benefits of BD. It's simply that, for me, DD has fewer compromises that my ears are attuned to. It would certainly be interesting to read your further thoughts on the matter.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
04-10-2013, 11:24
I may vomit if you two carry on with this mutual sycophancy much more. :rolleyes:
Does the term "brown tongue" mean anything to either of you? :scratch:
Lol - well you've probably kissed enough bottoms in your time for your 'lolly licker' to have developed a permanent coating! :ner:
Marco.
walpurgis
04-10-2013, 11:44
Does the term "brown tongue" mean anything to either of you?
Isn't that a misaligned version of 'brown nose'? :eyebrows:
Beobloke
04-10-2013, 11:52
I'm just waiting for someone to do a proper suspended DD turntable :scratch:
Paul
What, you mean something like the STST Motus II? http://www.puresound.info/id9.html
;)
What, you mean something like the STST Motus II? http://www.puresound.info/id9.html
;)
Now that is a cracking turntable.
Well, it certainly looks interesting and features design principles that I approve of - besides if Guy rates it, then it must be good.
Have you heard it, Stu?
Marco.
Yes,heard it a little while back.
Sounded superb.
Even to a non technical person like me,the way it has been executed makes sense.
Think it is making an appearance at the upcoming Hi Fi News show.
Nice one. It'll be interesting to see how well it is received :)
If any modded Technics users are going to the show, please give the STST room some special attention and post your feedback here.
Marco.
sq225917
04-10-2013, 13:58
So do your reckon your DC powered deck would be more stable than a standard LP12 motor then Arthur? Willing to put that to the test, Marco can join in too...
Yeah, that would be fun!
Marco.
Oldpinkman
04-10-2013, 14:13
So do your reckon your DC powered deck would be more stable than a standard LP12 motor then Arthur? Willing to put that to the test, Marco can join in too...
When you say the standard LP12 are we talking about vintage early 90's, pre-Valhalla - of the sort we fitted to the PT Export when I were at Pink
Or are you talking about the DC motor Linn supply with their radical power supply on their current £15000 LP12 ?
Oldpinkman
04-10-2013, 14:14
Sorry
Forgot how to do Linn Speke
That should be RadiKal power supply...:doh:
I believe that their new Diabolikal PSU has been carefully desinged to excel in that respect.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
04-10-2013, 14:17
I believe that their new Diabolikal PSU has been carefully desinged to excel in that respect.
Marco.
:lolsign:
Oldpinkman
04-10-2013, 14:28
I'm not sure how you plan to measure "stability"
If its with a dustbug I recommend you wear a full-face crash helmet and padded suit :lol:
Beobloke
04-10-2013, 14:39
What's all this about dust bugs then?!
Everyone knows a dust bug makes no difference to a PROPER turntable! :D
Oldpinkman
04-10-2013, 15:09
I am assuming Arthur will be back to comment once he has finished dealing with sending his new Flamenca turntable to the USA for the Denver show. Ask him about dustbugs...;)
(Not Flamenka !)
sq225917
04-10-2013, 18:08
Richard I mean a standard premotec Ac motor, 110v jobby, no frills no fuss. it's not in an LP12, it's running mu Kuzma, but none the less it is the industry standard 'shit' motor that has been used and derided for decades.
I intend to measure stability as stated, by looking at instantaneous speed variation through the magic window of frequency demodulation from a recorded sample of a known frequency test signal. Here's an example, or rather two.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5320/6946898818_2e583040d0_c.jpg
A perfect circle would be perfect 33.3. Any deviation from a perfect circle shows instability. For reference the deviation shown here is under 0.02%
The nice thing about this is that because each 'lap' equates to one revolution of the deck you can see exactly what teh speed stability deviation is caused by.
ie if you had an oval that would imply the deviation rate was n=1 and that would mean your platter was not round.
If you had deviation where n=number of pulley rotations per rev of platter then you'd have a pissed motor pulley.
Etc etc, all the way up to be ing able to view how 50hz noise transmitted from the motor affect how round the graph is.
It's a great tool and the only way i know to show speed instability and all the frequency components therein.
There's also the wavelet analysis which shows the signal power within frequency bands.
I'm back...Ah yes, dustbugs. Now there's an interesting subject. Precision piece of hi-tech kit, don't you know.
We are talking slowing under load AC / DC, if you will.
It was a warm summer day (a cold winter night?), well, which ever, the idea popped into someone's head that the dustbug could be brought into service to test if records slowed under load.
How so? I hear you ask.
On the face of it, it was quite a reasonable premise. Cartridges tracked at 2g (say) and tracking force is set at the minimum that keeps the stylus in contact with the groove at all times, namely maximum modulation. Any less and it leaps out.
So, how about we measure a signal and then drop a dustbug, balanced to 2g, and see if the signal shifts. If it does then records slow as the cartridge swings from full tracking force to juztless than zero.
Test duly set up: 3kHz signal on the FFT and Klonk. Like the sword of Damocles, the dustbug felleth(?) - c'mon, I've had a tiring day and haven't eaten.
The signal did indeed shift and the DC motor was worse than the AC motor.
Judge, jury and ultimately executioner, case obviously proven. Pink was damned.
And yet, here I sit, claiming with gay abandon (oops?) that dynamic wow doesn't exist.
So, who is right?
Well, I suppose I am a bit biased but I reckon I am.
At this point I will vanish for short while - I'm hungry after getting Flaming Flamenca off.
This interlude will then allow time to see if people can start to see flaws in the argument and procedure.
Back in an hour.
Arthur
ps I'm also interested in the question of "stability" DC v LP12. What exactly are we talking about? So more of that later as well.
"Slowing under load" What a misnomer.
The idea is that the stylus drags as it follows modulations up and down.
...up and down. Could there be a clue there?
Stylus starts at zero (rest)
Stylus goes up groove = that's dragging, but
Stylus down groove...now it's pushing!
Integrate over time and what do you know, they cancel out.
Perhaps that's a bit too airy-fairy, you know, some grass roots rigorous experiment would be more convincing.
OK. Cut a lacquer: Max modulation: 100Hz, 1kHz, 10kHz, each 10 secs on 10 secs off. All at the outside of the record.
On the inside, cut a constant 3kHz reference tone.
Use a deck with two arms and in order to minimise inner (reference) groove being loaded mechanically, have it traced by a very high compliance cartridge.
The outside is then traced by a very low compliance cartridge - Koetsu Black as it happened.
You are looking to see if there are any side-bands visible on the 3kHz tone. If there are then dynamic wow exists.
Well, much to our surprise, we did see side-bands... and here we have a classic example of
"Make sure your procedure is sorted."
It turned out that the sidebands were due to waves travelling across the record to the reference groove.
We cut a 3kHz onto second 7" record and mounted it on top of the main disc but de-coupled with a washer...and guess what. Nothing. Nix.
This covers the steady-state condition. But what of transient loading.
This time, experimental procedures cannot be adopted for in the limit the waveform would simply chuck the stylus out of the groove.
I'm afraid one could only resort to a mathematical treatment and we looked at change of momentum from a stylus to the platter.
Guess what?
Calculating for Pink's platter, (a mere 4lbs - LP12 platter is 10lbs), we looked at at maximum velocity, with a low compliance cartridge, again at edge of the disc.
The best (worst?) we could come up with was
70dB down. Now add 30-40dB for normal modulation.
There is no such thing as slowing under load.
Frictional drag of the stylus against the vinyl itself, no argument but that is effectively a constant when compared to the groove modulation.
As for our hardworking dustbug, well that gives a simple resistive load that is unvarying. All you have to do is trim up the speed: Recall Transcriptor's Hydraulic Reference with its oil trough that you drag a paddle through to alter its overall speed?
The analysis as published was in fact all the more non-sensical because AC tts slowed .15% (say), PT's DC slowed .5% (say) but what of DDs? Well the apparently didn't slow at all! What new laws of physics were they operating to that the rest of us were ignorant of?
Of course they weren't. Post transient loading, the servo kicked in and brought the platter to speed BUT by definition, slowing had indeed taken place.
There was one final part to the puzzle: so, with the dustbug falling, for there to be .5% measured slowing, PTs DC motor must have slowed, surely.
Well, no. The motor's servo was in fact doing its job and drawing more current to compensate. The problem lay in the belt that was distorting its dimensions as it went round the pulley! It was stretching just that little bit more than on the AC motor. But certain influential quarters wouldn't hear of such a thing and in order merely to survive, PT was forced to go down the AC route.
Until Anniversary, that is, when the AC motor came to the end of its line. It simply would not work on the sub-chassis, no matter how much we encouraged it. DC motors were back and to stay.
I haven't looked back since. The problem with DC motors is that they really do fight you. Much more design effort goes into making them work than the simple AC motor.
But then they "inherently" sound better because they don't have that awful LF AC "wibbling", caused by the poles as they deliver power. This occurs at around 100Hz and there's nothing you can do to get rid of it.
(Around? depends if we are talking 50Hz supply or 60Hz supply)
And the performance of a DC motor can be made very good indeed.
The Grand Wazoo
04-10-2013, 19:34
That PT as a company or its products weren't as successful as they should've been was more down to the Linn/Michell/Rega, etc, brainwashing that existed back then [and indeed to an extent still continues now, which is why those afflicted find participating on this site unpalatable], and how sheep-like folk were in those days, than the performance of any of the PT equipment.
Whoah there Marco, I can't let that go without comment!
What Michell brainwashing is this then? At the time you are speaking of, Michell turntables were generally considered to be little more than nice looking executive toys - they were far less respected than PT gear for their sound quality and probably sold fewer units too. The Gyrodec only began to really be noticed as a serious turntable in about 1993 or so, when a couple of magazine reviewers started to use them. When I bought mine in '91 some people thought I was mad because it wasn't a 'serious' turntable - not much brainwashing there!
sq225917
04-10-2013, 19:34
I'm with you here. The change in drag from stylus pressure and varying musical content is orders of magnitude less than the torque of the motor and the inertia of the platter, that's proven easily with two tone arms on the same test record at once, or stacking a 7inch on top of a test record and playing that. It's a common turntable myth promulgated over the years. Play the 1812 with a 3 gram tracker and a platter made of cardboard and it might be an issue but with a couple of pounds of glass or alloy rotating at 33.3, I don't believe it is an issue.
So while a dust bug can slow a deck by a touch, especially with a dc motor, it's packing way more drag than any cart and arm is. If anyone doubts this they should drag a finger on the edge of their platter while reading a strobe disc, you need a fair old few grams of drag to make any difference.
I think the idea of a free running bearing is vastly over rated. Sure you need a high precision bearing with very low noise and perfect smoothness, but it's much better having a lot of drag. It linearises belt tension, reduces motor cogging ( in an AC motor) and utterly swamps any potential effects from changes in stylus drag.
Stability. Just a straight up test of measured speed stability playing back any test tone track. One deck against another.
edit: excellent Arthur you answered while I was writing my missive.
sq225917
04-10-2013, 19:42
Re AC motor wibbling you can kill it stone dead by running the motor into a draggy bearing. It is purely a product of a very lightly loaded motor running out side of its optimal torque loading.
Swap you gearbox oil for silicon and hey presto your shitty cheap Ac motor is as good as 'any' dc motor, and doesn't require a speed hunting servo. Let's not forget that the drag from a cartridge does also change significantly over the side of a record even though it's not modulated appreciably by the signal, any dc motor without servo will change speed audibly from the inside to the outside of an LP side. if anyone doubts this i suggest they get the strobe discs out. This is why the entire range of older origin Live DC motor controllers were simply NFU. They couldn't hold sped over one side of an LP- no feedback you see.
There's no free lunch...
Oldpinkman
04-10-2013, 20:19
Re AC motor wibbling you can kill it stone dead by running the motor into a draggy bearing. It is purely a product of a very lightly loaded motor running out side of its optimal torque loading.
Swap you gearbox oil for silicon and hey presto your shitty cheap Ac motor is as good as 'any' dc motor, and doesn't require a speed hunting servo. Let's not forget that the drag from a cartridge does also change significantly over the side of a record even though it's not modulated appreciably by the signal, any dc motor without servo will change speed audibly from the inside to the outside of an LP side. if anyone doubts this i suggest they get the strobe discs out. This is why the entire range of older origin Live DC motor controllers were simply NFU. They couldn't hold sped over one side of an LP- no feedback you see.
There's no free lunch...
Have you told Linn that yet?
Oldpinkman
04-10-2013, 20:21
Whoah there Marco, I can't let that go without comment!
What Michell brainwashing is this then? At the time you are speaking of, Michell turntables were generally considered to be little more than nice looking executive toys - they were far less respected than PT gear for their sound quality and probably sold fewer units too. The Gyrodec only began to really be noticed as a serious turntable in about 1993 or so, when a couple of magazine reviewers started to use them. When I bought mine in '91 some people thought I was mad because it wasn't a 'serious' turntable - not much brainwashing there!
I'll give you that. Lets stay focussed and stick to Linn bashing :)
Whoah there Marco, I can't let that go without comment!
What Michell brainwashing is this then? At the time you are speaking of, Michell turntables were generally considered to be little more than nice looking executive toys - they were far less respected than PT gear for their sound quality and probably sold fewer units too. The Gyrodec only began to really be noticed as a serious turntable in about 1993 or so, when a couple of magazine reviewers started to use them. When I bought mine in '91 some people thought I was mad because it wasn't a 'serious' turntable - not much brainwashing there!
Hi Chris,
Noted, dude, and no offence. In that respect, Michell could be removed from the list. I guess that what I was getting at was the whole 'Jap crap' thing back then with T/Ts, and so if wasn't British and belt-driven, it was rubbish. I utterly abhored that bullshite (as I believe it held back and adversely affected the audio scene in the UK) - and still do!
Marco.
sq225917
04-10-2013, 23:51
Richard, no they can do their own research. However its well know by DPs and other deck makers who use a high drag bearing.
Ammonite Audio
05-10-2013, 12:37
What a fantastic thread! Please can we have more helpful technical discussions like this?
Thanks to Simon, I now have a slightly better understanding of why my old Kenwood KD-770D, with its relatively low-torque motor and patently high-drag bearing, sounds far better than it would appear to have any right to sound. I had been tempted to do some work on the crude-looking grease bearing to make it more free-running, but now I can see that this would be a disastrous thing to do. Presumably, the same principle explains why my Thorens TD-124 sounds better with a touch of eddy brake dialled in, compared with free-running, even though its shaded pole AC motor is fed by a synthesised and locked AC supply?
sq225917
05-10-2013, 13:33
Shuggie, yup. It's amazing how much of that old knowledge gets forgotten or hidden away over time.
rubber duck
05-10-2013, 13:57
So while a dust bug can slow a deck by a touch, especially with a dc motor, it's packing way more drag than any cart and arm is. If anyone doubts this they should drag a finger on the edge of their platter while reading a strobe disc, you need a fair old few grams of drag to make any difference.
How do we explain turntable speed slowing with the needle on the record at approx 3:00? Or is this insignificant?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RF2XieUlzvk
Presumably, the same principle explains why my Thorens TD-124 sounds better with a touch of eddy brake dialled in, compared with free-running, even though its shaded pole AC motor is fed by a synthesised and locked AC supply?
This has been the point we've been trying to make for years and with our test rig for AC motors:
You hold the motor in your hand and dial the voltages till the vibration minimises...but it never vanishes.
This is with a lab standard PSU. It is the best we can muster and would be perfectly smooth were it not for the AC motor's 96 Hz beating, which is inherent.
You can only de-torque your motor so far before it stalls and at that point it is till beating noticeably.
(Back to the Anniversary development argument)
Loading bearings are all well and good but the power being generated in the pole is still being transmitted to the rotor and onto the platter.
There is in fact a "perfect" platter drive and although is sounds like something Philip K Dick would go for - actually I think it is more up Asimov's street, you could get it here on earth. Anyyway, it is the "Gravity Drive".
With a cord wrapped round a platter and a hanging, heavy weight falling to earth you will get a continuous, perfectly even force to turn your platter.
The down side to this is getting old Ned to walk round the house and wind up the cord every record, cost of feed and housing him when not playing records and let's not forget conjugal visits, all in all it is a tad inconvenient.
But I've digressed: What happens if we repeat this self-same test with a DC motor? Picking up the motor we ask people to turn the power on...only, they have picked up a running motor!
You genuinely can't feel it turning. It is that smooth - and with more than ample torque. OK. That is with K-Drive adn so on. But with Lingos at £1300(?) and K-drive at £900 odd it is a fair comparison.
It's at this point we see what a belt drive does.
DC motor pulses are of such a small amplitude and high frequency that the belt absorbs them easily.
The smaller the pulses, the stiffer the belt and the tighter the coupling.
So we now have a smooth belt drive system.
But where does that leave the belt drive DD argument?
The point of a belt drive is not necessarily the belt itself per se but the motor being geared to platter speed. It turns much faster than the platter.
Typically a DC motor will turn at about 1000 rpm v the 250 of the AC (v33.3rpm of a DD)
Even with the same number of poles we need one quarter each energy pulses to keep our deck turning smoothly.
Increase the number of windings as well and you can see how a DC motor really does has advantages.
it does work. Even on a cheap deck, Little Super Deck, just look at Noel's measurements. Subjectively, Tony Bolton did draw comparisons with a good DD deck.
A good drive is a good drive and I don't think politeness (i.e. belt -drive) is a characteristic of Little Super Deck. I'll leave that aspect for another time.
Arthur
Arthur
sq225917
05-10-2013, 17:35
I can only speak for my results Arthur, but there's barely no vibration in my motor when loaded with silicon in the bearing. And by barely I mean I struggle to feel it. Maybe that's because I have control over voltages and precise phase lag- and aren't trying to prove another solution. ;-) Secondly, not only does the drag reduce the amplitude of the cogging effects but it also acts as a resistive element to fluctuations coming down the belt. That's the joy of viscous drag, it's speed sensitive (assuming you don't exceed the shear constant for the silicon) drag increases as the speed of rotation increases and it decreases as the speed decreases, so it's self correcting.
like anything it's all in the implementation.
As a matter of interest what were the headline W&F measurements from Noel. I don't buy the magazine.
As a matter of interest what were the headline W&F measurements from Noel. I don't buy the magazine.
Hi Simon. Will have to get back on that and it might not be till next week - don't have the mag to hand and will have to work out who's nabbed it...unless some kind soul out there has it and can help out?
I haven't contributed much to this thread (not sure if I have contributed at all in fact), but I have also looked quite deeply in to drive options/solutions. Without writing an essay the short is that my experience entirely agrees with Simon's comments and both our decks employ a very similar solution (except the main bearing on mine is also magnetically supported).
walpurgis
05-10-2013, 20:46
Just a couple of points about the foregoing.
Transcriptors (Michell) were around long before PT were ever heard of. However their earlier TTs were really not that good sounding.
Also, anybody using a dust bug needs their head tested. They just feed noise into the transcription process at the stylus while the record is playing.
Stratmangler
05-10-2013, 20:53
Just a couple of points about the foregoing.
Transcriptors (Michell) were around long before PT were ever heard of. However their earlier TTs were really not that good sounding.
Also, anybody using a dust bug needs their head tested. They just feed noise into the transcription process at the stylus while the record is playing.
Back in the day it was very common practice to use a dust bug or similar.
Fast forward to the turn of the century and the advocacy of using one is questionable.
I don't like the flip-up stylus guards on certain cartridges, and remove them.
My current cartridge takes that policy to an extreme conclusion ....
http://www.coolgales.com/store/images/SumikoBluePointSpecial550.jpg
Spectral Morn
05-10-2013, 21:05
Whoah there Marco, I can't let that go without comment!
What Michell brainwashing is this then? At the time you are speaking of, Michell turntables were generally considered to be little more than nice looking executive toys - they were far less respected than PT gear for their sound quality and probably sold fewer units too. The Gyrodec only began to really be noticed as a serious turntable in about 1993 or so, when a couple of magazine reviewers started to use them. When I bought mine in '91 some people thought I was mad because it wasn't a 'serious' turntable - not much brainwashing there!
Hi Chris
Most notably Ken Kessler who had to return his (correction loaner) Oracle Delphi to AS - distributor at the time before Music Room had ago - (heard this so many times over the years from so many sources - details agreeing - that it is credible in my view). He took on the Michell Gyro and enthused about it being a suitable replacement both visually and sonically. Must say I don't agree on either as the standard Gyro with its massive lid is an ugly design and if the hinges get loose then that lid weighs a ton for it to land uncontrolled on the plinth. Sonically the latter Gyro is as good - different but the early 90's one in my view isn't as good as a Delphi mk4 + turbo PSU that Ken was using at the time.
Back in the late 80's through till I left my first specialist HiFi employment mid 90's - well it left me as it went bust due to mismanagement and a crazy change in location - I sold and built loads of different types of turntables and the fit and finish of all of Michell's decks left most of the others around at the time ashamed, embarrassed and wanting (bar that horrible lid arrangement) but it wasn't in my view till the plinth was dropped/made an option and motor and PSU changed that the Gyro truly began to sing.
Regards Neil
Just a couple of points about the foregoing.
Transcriptors (Michell) were around long before PT were ever heard of. However their earlier TTs were really not that good sounding.
Also, anybody using a dust bug needs their head tested. They just feed noise into the transcription process at the stylus while the record is playing.
Transcriptors and Michell are two totally separate companies ,David Gammon owned transcriptors and designed the hydraulic reference and other transcriptors turntables , at the time Michell were an engineering company who were given a licence to produce the hydraulic reference this was the start of their move into turntables .
Paul
walpurgis
06-10-2013, 10:09
Transcriptors and Michell are two totally separate companies ,David Gammon owned transcriptors and designed the hydraulic reference and other transcriptors turntables , at the time Michell were an engineering company who were given a licence to produce the hydraulic reference this was the start of their move into turntables .
Paul
Yes I do recall something about that, but wasn't sure about the historic details. Nonetheless, I recall the Hydraulic Reference and the Saturn back in the early seventies, which was the point I was trying to make. Pink Triangle came along some years later.
Yes I do recall something about that, but wasn't sure about the historic details. Nonetheless, I recall the Hydraulic Reference and the Saturn back in the early seventies, which was the point I was trying to make. Pink Triangle came along some years later.
yes very true Geoff, I think transcriptors started in the early sixties where PT are late seventies?, Just thought I should point out the separate issue as both Transcriptors and Michell are still trading companies.
Paul
Oldpinkman
06-10-2013, 14:16
yes very true Geoff, I think transcriptors started in the early sixties where PT are late seventies?, Just thought I should point out the separate issue as both Transcriptors and Michell are still trading companies.
Paul
Just looked at my degree certificate. I graduated in 1983 so I reckon PT started in 1981. Doubtless Arthur will be along to correct me before long - but we were dealing with the hum on my deck on his mums kitchen floor in 1982!
The Grand Wazoo
06-10-2013, 14:25
Michell made parts for Transcriptors in the '60s until Transcriptors went to Ireland in '73 and then Michell built the Hydraulic Reference turntable under licence. The Reference Electronic was the first non-Transcriptors TT - 1977 and the Gyro was early '80s.
Just looked at my degree certificate. I graduated in 1983 so I reckon PT started in 1981. Doubtless Arthur will be along to correct me before long - but we were dealing with the hum on my deck on his mums kitchen floor in 1982!
you would know better than me Richard;)
Paul
sq225917
06-10-2013, 22:16
79-2003
Mr Kipling
06-10-2013, 22:58
What's all this about dust bugs then?!
Everyone knows a dust bug makes no difference to a PROPER turntable! :D
Oh, come on Adam. . . Even I know a dust bug is "The Devil's Instrument". Put one on your deck and you have the mark of Satan on your system.
Bass getting sucked into a black hole? Mid-range squashed to buggery? Top-end coming at you from all directions? Look no further than "The Bug Of Beelzebub". Repent, and get rid of it, you sinners.
Best keep that cherished accessory Adam in it's plush box, where it's evil can be contained.
walpurgis
06-10-2013, 23:13
Well said that man! Medical restraints should be used on anybody attempting to use a dustbug and forgiveness for such behaviour is unlikely to be forthcoming.
Nonetheless, I recall the Hydraulic Reference and the Saturn back in the early seventies, which was the point I was trying to make. Pink Triangle came along some years later.
(To be read with a distant, misty look)
Correct:
My first real deck was a BD1, followed by a Hydraulic Reference, bought whist still at school. Being iconic, it's something I could never part with so still have.
Post university, 1976 saw my first LP12, one of many (should I be admitting that?)
At that point I must have gone to sleep for when I awoke, magically PT was about to launch.
Star Date Dec 11, 1979. 'Twas a cold and lonely winter...
So now you know.
For a bit of light background, our first show to launch Pink was Audio T's Swiss cottage. (That show was nuts.)
In so doing, we had spent every penny we had.
If you think that is mere exaggeration, try this: We dreaded anyone and I mean anyone coming up to us and asking to go for a drink. Between us, (Neal and I) for the entire weekend, we had but £5.00 for everything. That's it. No way could we even afford a single drink.
I'm trying to recall how we managed to survive.
So Richard, sorting out hum problems (on-board transformer? If I recall correctly) was still a couple of years off.
Arthur
Cool... Well, when Neil's finished with it, perhaps he could send it onto me for a listen
Oi! Get in line! Arthur promised me one months ago :lol:
Oldpinkman
07-10-2013, 06:12
No - can't count! Degree certificate JUNE 1983, so start of academic year September 1982, so kitchen floor excitement September 1981, start of PT 1980. I don't count the 10 days in 1979. You sure you want me doing your tax returns? :scratch:
sometimes forget what it is I'm listening to: the CD player or the turntable
Me too. If your source components are sufficiently tonally neutral, that's the way it should be.
Oldpinkman
07-10-2013, 10:34
Me too. If your source components are sufficiently tonally neutral, that's the way it should be.
I can only say you are both a bloody sight luckier than me when it comes to surface noise then. And you can hear cable burn-in? Bloody hell, what am I doing wrong? :doh:
StanleyB
07-10-2013, 10:42
I can only say you are both a bloody sight luckier than me when it comes to surface noise then.
Have you looked at the officially published SNR of the TT that Martin has? If you add a RCM to the equation it's not hard to achieve. Just expensive..
Oldpinkman
07-10-2013, 11:30
Have you looked at the officially published SNR of the TT that Martin has? If you add a RCM to the equation it's not hard to achieve. Just expensive..
It's not the TT - its the dust on the record, and record wear. I have improved matters greatly with and RCM, but aside from the 2 recently melted records, few of my records are truly silent.
I take the point about tonal accuracy, (it was the old PT v LP12 issue - PT sounded like a CD, which didn't sound like an LP12, and therefore QED the PT and CD sounded wrong). But I know whether its an LP or a CD playing ;)
I can only say you are both a bloody sight luckier than me when it comes to surface noise then. And you can hear cable burn-in? Bloody hell, what am I doing wrong? :doh:
Surface noise is largely down to limited dynamic range. With the combination of a good MC cartridge, good quality arm and excellent phono stage, surface noise falls to such a low level that it becomes a non-issue when the music starts (provided your vinyl is in a good state, of course).
Also, a good RCM is a must to get your vinyl into a nice clean state.
sq225917
07-10-2013, 14:08
Richard I don't think Martin or Marco were saying that their system can play back records with 'no' surface noise. Just that it is at such a low level as to be seldom intrusive or apparent. I find much the same, decent cart, a good RCM and records that haven't been f_ed through years of shitty stylus' and amazing results are possible.
Oldpinkman
07-10-2013, 14:31
Richard I don't think Martin or Marco were saying that their system can play back records with 'no' surface noise. Just that it is at such a low level as to be seldom intrusive or apparent. I find much the same, decent cart, a good RCM and records that haven't been f_ed through years of shitty stylus' and amazing results are possible.
Sure. I guess I was slightly tongue in cheek. My record collection probably on average has more poorly cared for records (off-perfect) than most from my student days. I haven't cleaned all of them with the RCM by a long way -so room for improvement. Most are "silent" except on very quiet passages or between tracks - but that means have surface noise masked by music. And, going back to comments about cables and the likes, I know what I'm listening to because I put it on!
But I understood their point, and the same broadly applies to me. Tonally my record player is very similar to CD (particularly from the mid-midband up - bit bass light atm - Arthur, we have work to do!!!). And with DaCapo there is no obvious "digital" to CD's, which even the very good CD6 had. So I could forget too.
Well I will be able to after Wednesday when the 405 should be coming home to Daddy!! :)
Oldpinkman
07-10-2013, 15:11
Oi! Get in line! Arthur promised me one months ago :lol:
Arthur my boy (with heavy Jewish accent). Listen to your accountant already. Don't lend it to them - RENT it! Think of the cash flow :eyebrows:
Beobloke
07-10-2013, 17:55
Oh, come on Adam. . . Even I know a dust bug is "The Devil's Instrument". Put one on your deck and you have the mark of Satan on your system.
Ah, fear not - I wouldn't allow ONE SINGLE dust bug anywhere near my Garrard.
As you can see...
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/Beobloke/DustBugs2s_zps009b78f4.jpg (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/Beobloke/media/DustBugs2s_zps009b78f4.jpg.html)
:D
walpurgis
07-10-2013, 21:18
Oh, Ha Ha! Just for that I think Nurse should take you to the medical room and give you a good spanking with the back of her hairbrush. :eyebrows:
Mr Kipling
07-10-2013, 22:13
Ah, fear not - I wouldn't allow ONE SINGLE dust bug anywhere near my Garrard.
As you can see...
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa428/Beobloke/DustBugs2s_zps009b78f4.jpg (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/Beobloke/media/DustBugs2s_zps009b78f4.jpg.html)
:D
Strangely enough, Adam, at about the time you posted that I was wondering if anyone had ever had more than one arm on a deck. Only ever had the one myself.
Oi! Get in line! Arthur promised me one months ago :lol:
I did indeed..and how did you repay?
You...you went off holidaying in the sun, sea, sand, sangria (or wherever you were);)
(Get in touch...)
Pictures will be on the website this week.
I did indeed..and how did you repay?
You...you went off holidaying in the sun, sea, sand, sangria (or wherever you were);)
But . . . but . . . I needed it!
PM sent.
pure sound
08-10-2013, 06:40
Do you have a room number for RMAF Arthur? Will the new platter be there? I'll have to come & have a look.
Back on topic, I think that differences in sound due to DD motor control electronics are audible but should not be confused with the torque/flywheel relationship.
Having grown used to the presentation of a markedly higher torque heavyish platter SP10 I did hear something appealing in the comparative smoothness of other DD designs such as some of the Pioneers and of course the older Duals based on the Papst EDS motor such as the 701. The STST I'm using now also eschews the kind of 'hard control' used by Technics and imho benefits as a result certainly sounding more natural than either of my SP10's. Perhaps the instant start capability does come at a price, one that hasnt been such an issue for broadcasters.
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