Overpriced (and or) overrated

[cloth-ears]

I was having a discussion over the weekend with a few old mates. After a while we started chatting about Hi-fi and in particular how much some of the older gear is selling for on eBay. We ended up making a list of what we thought was overpriced and or overrated. I said the LS3/5A was overpriced at around £1000. Thirty years ago the LS3/5A was a good little speaker and reasonably priced. I now think that there are much better drive units out there than the B110/T27 combo and that £1000 would buy a much better speaker.

Also the 301 and 401. Both good in their day but again there are much better value vinyl spinners out there, PT for example.

In my mind the biggest waste of money is the J A Michell Hydraulic Reference Transcription Turntable. Undoubtedly one of the most iconic and beautiful bits of Hi-Fi kit ever built but as a vinyl spinner it sounded average at best.

There are many more, but I would like to know what you all think. :mental:

[Reffc]

Agree with most of the above but not with your assessment of the Hydraulic Reference, having listened extensively to one. Like anything else, with TTs, performance is as much the arm and cartridge used. I prefer the Transcription Hydraulic to the 401. Quieter running, easier to maintain nicer looking and to my ears, sounded better. I have a 401 and love various aspects of it...I wont be selling it, but I wouldn't for a moment claim that it was up there with modern superdecks because its not, nor would I claim it was better than a Hydraulic reference, because to my mind, its not. Various pieces of kit are fetching classic or cult status which is being reflected in prices. Look at the fab Celestion Ditton 66's...still great today and can compete with anything up to several thousands of pounds but a good pair fetches over £1500 these days which is a lot for a vintage speaker....but nothing compared with the most over-rated classic speaker, the Tannoy Lancaster. Under-sized cabinet, poorly constructed, poorly damped and they're changing hands for £3K plus. Utter madness.

[southall-1998]

Nait 1, 2 & LP12.

[Marco]

Look at the fab Celestion Ditton 66's...still great today and can compete with anything up to several thousands of pounds but a good pair fetches over £1500 these days which is a lot for a vintage speaker....but nothing compared with the most over-rated classic speaker, the Tannoy Lancaster. Under-sized cabinet, poorly constructed, poorly damped and they're changing hands for £3K plus. Utter madness.

Hi Paul,

I totally agree, regarding the Lancasters, however the vast majority of their value is related to the 15" Monitor Gold drivers inside them... Other than the daft Japs, who are obsessed with any vintage equipment remotely considered as 'classically British', most sensible people would scrap the cabinets and house the (superb) drive units in something rather more suitable for the job! ;)

Cabinets aside, however, are 15" Monitor Gold drivers alone 'worth' £3k? I guess that's entirely subjective and depends on what you intend to do with them. It's certainly a lot of dosh for something that's over 40 years old. However, you and I both know what these speakers are truly capable of, when housed inside quality cabinets and fed with crossovers containing the best components made today.

Therefore, drive units aside, given that if you spend, say, another £2-3k on having decent cabinets built and on installing top-notch crossovers, and you then end up with a pair of loudspeakers for £6k-ish, which can compete with (and in some areas outperform) designs today costing £15-20k (certainly mine do, anyway, and I'm sure yours are the same), I guess that, in high-end terms, you have genuinely secured a bit of a bargain! :)

The key here is to assess the sonic and engineering value of the Monitor Gold drive units themselves, and forget about the piss-awful Lancaster cabinets - and crucially - ask yourself how much Tannoy would charge today to make those drive units?

Indeed, in that respect, how much, for example, are pair of drive units for the current Canterburys? Only when you look at things in that context can you judge the main reason why some vintage Tannoys fetch the prices that they do, and why those who know how to make the most of them will pay those prices....

As for Celestion 66s, yup, you're spot on. However, as you also correctly say, they can compete with anything up to several thousand pounds. Based on my own personal experience, I would completely agree. Therefore, much like with Tannoy MGs, if you've got a pair of loudspeakers that compete with and/or outperform designs which are 3-4 times more expensive than the price you paid, then quite simply, the initial outlay was worth it!

I'm as much against the existence of ridiculously overpriced and overrated vintage equipment as you are, but in my opinion, the genuinely top-notch stuff is worthy of its reputation and thus worth every penny!! :exactly:

Marco.

[Beobloke]

Also the 301 and 401. Both good in their day but again there are much better value vinyl spinners out there, PT for example.


I don't think anyone would deny that there are better value vinyl spinners out there but I still think the price of a 301 or 401 is actually fairly reasonable. Consider that you can buy a decent one for £500, factor in £200 for a service and another £500 for a decent plinth and you've spent £1200 on a motor unit.

Now, I own a 301 in good order and in a hefty plinth, but I also own a Michell Gyro SE which I absolutely adore, and which also retails for around £1200 without arm. It betters the Garrard in some areas but equally the Garrard fights back in others - they are both superb to my ears, but in different ways. On that basis, £1200 for a fettled 301 seems pretty good value for money to me.

[cloth-ears]

Anything by Bose and most B&O, overpriced and overrated. :scratch:

[chelsea]

Not sure about all B&O stuff.
I'd put the pioneer A400 & Audiolab A8000 & most naim speakers in though.

[istari_knight]

Is this limited to classic gear or can I put down some overrated modern stuff too ?

[Martyn Miles]

Reffc mentioned those two words 'utter madness '. If you think £1000 for a pair of old LS3/5as is a lot, then consider the old Rogers ones which recently went for over £3000 ! That really is utter madness.
The prices are fuelled by the Far East collectors. If anyone here has a pair of Chartwell LS3/5as sitting around then you could make a handsome profit.

[Spectral Morn]

Audiolab 8000A, Pioneer A400, Linn Isobariks, Quad 2, early Naim kit, KEF105s and plenty more...... but if it floats your boat then fair enough, there is plenty I like and rate that won't float some folks boat either - such is life :cool:


Regards Neil

[Beobloke]

Anything by Bose and most B&O, overpriced and overrated. :scratch:


Right, I can debate the Garrard 301 and 401 in a civilised manner, but you've gone too far with that comment. Outside - NOW!!

:punch:

;)

[cloth-ears]

Is this limited to classic gear or can I put down some overrated modern stuff too ?

Anything you like

[cloth-ears]

Right, I can debate the Garrard 301 and 401 in a civilised manner, but you've gone too far with that comment. Outside - NOW!!

:punch:

;)

Please don't kill me. Bose is well overpriced and overrated. And so is most B&O stuff. But if you are bigger than me then you are right and if you are small with bad eyesight and only arm then "sit on it", otherwise, sorry

[Macca]

What about Naim power amps - the prices are eye-watering and the specs not very impressive at all. What are folk paying for there?

[istari_knight]

Anything you like

:thumbsup: I'll put in a vote for ART speakers. Owned the 'Stiletto 6' which were shite & heard the 'Emotion' which were shite... I cant understand the pricing, double what I think they're worth & they'll happily make your bank account another 5K lighter for a few silver crossover components :doh:

[Beobloke]

But if you are bigger than me then you are right and if you are small with bad eyesight and only arm then "sit on it", otherwise, sorry

:lol:

[MikeMusic]

What about Naim power amps - the prices are eye-watering and the specs not very impressive at all. What are folk paying for there?

Think a Nait 1 went for £550 recently

[wiicrackpot]

:thumbsup: I'll put in a vote for ART speakers. Owned the 'Stiletto 6' which were shite & heard the 'Emotion' which were shite... I cant understand the pricing, double what I think they're worth & they'll happily make your bank account another 5K lighter for a few silver crossover components :doh:
James, your posting style mirrors mine, call a kettle black if it is, no messing, :thumbsup: :D
never heard the ''heelies'' but the Emo's and Deco's are tops so they are not 'shite', agreed about the pricing though.

[wiicrackpot]

Think a Nait 1 went for £550 recently
I have a Olive Nait 2 sitting doing nowt, every time i'm thinking of selling, give it a wee blast and i change my mind. :scratch:

[istari_knight]

James, your posting style mirrors mine, call a kettle black if it is, no messing, :thumbsup: :D
never heard the ''heelies'' but the Emo's and Deco's are tops so they are not 'shite', agreed about the pricing though.

Well... having wasted money on those Stiletto 6's I felt inclined to be brutally honest :D

I sort of agree, the Emotions aren't shite but I did feel they needed to include a midrange driver :hmm: They have lots of happy owners so thats all that matters I suppose.

[wiicrackpot]

Well... having wasted money on those Stiletto 6's I felt inclined to be brutally honest :D

I sort of agree, the Emotions aren't shite but I did feel they needed to include a midrange driver :hmm: They have lots of happy owners so thats all that matters I suppose.
No worries James, maybe when you heard the Emo's, it was through a shite amp. :sofa:

[istari_knight]

Hehe, twas a Mcintosh something... Sorry I don't know the model.

[Clive197]

Linn LP12 with Ittok. Overpriced and overrated. I owned one of these for 10 years so know what I'm talking about.

[kenworthy100]

Modern day Naim Nap250
Naim NAC a5 cable, price in 1992 about £6 a metre now £25 for the same stuff

[chelsea]

Linn LP12 with Ittok. Overpriced and overrated. I owned one of these for 10 years so know what I'm talking about.

How come it took so long to find it it was overated?

[Clive197]

How come it took so long to find it it was overated?

Really got into Digital!

[Oldpinkman]

This is what the doctor ordered. A bit of good old fashioned, low-complexity Linn bashing. Not that I imagine they will lose any sleep over it..:)

[pjdowns]

This is what the doctor ordered. A bit of good old fashioned, low-complexity Linn bashing. Not that I imagine they will lose any sleep over it..:)

Forgot to mention the good old Naim bashing too Richard ;)

[Marco]

Hi Paul,

I totally agree, regarding the Lancasters, however the vast majority of their value is related to the 15" Monitor Gold drivers inside them... Other than the daft Japs, who are obsessed with any vintage equipment remotely considered as 'classically British', most sensible people would scrap the cabinets and house the (superb) drive units in something rather more suitable for the job! ;)

Cabinets aside, however, are 15" Monitor Gold drivers alone 'worth' £3k? I guess that's entirely subjective and depends on what you intend to do with them. It's certainly a lot of dosh for something that's over 40 years old. However, you and I both know what these speakers are truly capable of, when housed inside quality cabinets and fed with crossovers containing the best components made today.

Therefore, drive units aside, given that if you spend, say, another £2-3k on having decent cabinets built and on installing top-notch crossovers, and you then end up with a pair of loudspeakers for £6k-ish, which can compete with (and in some areas outperform) designs today costing £15-20k (certainly mine do, anyway, and I'm sure yours are the same), I guess that, in high-end terms, you have genuinely secured a bit of a bargain! :)

The key here is to assess the sonic and engineering value of the Monitor Gold drive units themselves, and forget about the piss-awful Lancaster cabinets - and crucially - ask yourself how much Tannoy would charge today to make those drive units?

Indeed, in that respect, how much, for example, are pair of drive units for the current Canterburys? Only when you look at things in that context can you judge the main reason why some vintage Tannoys fetch the prices that they do, and why those who know how to make the most of them will pay those prices....

As for Celestion 66s, yup, you're spot on. However, as you also correctly say, they can compete with anything up to several thousand pounds. Based on my own personal experience, I would completely agree. Therefore, much like with Tannoy MGs, if you've got a pair of loudspeakers that compete with and/or outperform designs which are 3-4 times more expensive than the price you paid, then quite simply, the initial outlay was worth it!

I'm as much against the existence of ridiculously overpriced and overrated vintage equipment as you are, but in my opinion, the genuinely top-notch stuff is worthy of its reputation and thus worth every penny!! :exactly:


Any thoughts on this, Paul? :)

Marco.

[Thing Fish]

I agree with the LP12 but having now nailed my ittok to my Lenco it now sounds rather good.

As for Naim, I can't comment on all of it but the stuff I owned 62/140/hicap sounded ok(ish) but not great.

[istari_knight]

I agree with the LP12 but having now nailed my ittok to my Lenco it now sounds rather good.

As for Naim, I can't comment on all of it but the stuff I owned 62/140/hicap sounded ok(ish) but not great.

IME the power amps are decent its the preamps they fudge [CB & olive only, I haven't tried the new stuff.]

[Andrei]

Forgot to mention the good old Naim bashing too Richard ;)
Sorry to pull you up on your grammar old chap but the expressions are 'Linn Bashing' and 'Naim Calling'.

[bobbasrah]

:spank::spank:
Sorry to pull you up on your grammar old chap but the expressions are 'Linn Bashing' and 'Naim Calling'.
:ner:

[worrasf]

Grado RA 1 headphone amp
Ortofon Rohman cartridge

Steve

[istari_knight]

Grado RA 1 headphone amp
Ortofon Rohman cartridge

Steve

Thats a good one I completely forgot about ! £5 of components in a wooden box for £420 :lol:

[Puffin]

A simple C-Moy headphone amp.

[Reffc]

Any thoughts on this, Paul? :)

Marco.

Yes. £3K for MGs is ludicrous. What they sound like is irrelevant. A few years ago, you could pick up a good pair with crossovers for £1K tops. That, if they were in fab condition, was about what they were "worth" compared with an equivalent modern set of drivers (more accuractely, 4 drivers in place of the Tannoy DC 2). Its simply the Far East that's pushed up market prices and put these out of reach of most mortal people here in the UK. I happen to believe that the HPD, if properly implemented is a better driver, my own personal view and I know one not shared by many. A pair of 15 inch HPDs reconed and with crossovers can just about be had for £1K and that's a far better buy imho. Lancasters for £3K is a joke, really, it is. A decent set of bespoke cabinets can JUST be had for £3K but if you want furniture standard cabinets at 200 to 220 litres designed to maximise the best that 15 inch MGs can give, £3K is light...very light. Try £5K. the cost of the veneer alone for my Fidelios (178 litres) was £600. Add cost of rest of the timber, glues, and 180 to 200 hours of labour and there's not a snowball's chance in hell you'd get them anywhere for £3K. Basic ply boxes, such as GRF's which are relatively simple in construction, then yes. Cabinets to get the very best from them? No. I know that you may have got your Lockwoods cheaper and if so, they were good value. Still, a decent set of HPDs for a grand mated to stunning Cabs using bespoke crossovers and sounding like a million dollars for well under £10K suddenly starts to make sense when compared with some of the so-called high end, especially stand mounts at over £10K. I know what I'd rather look at and listen to ;)

[istari_knight]

A simple C-Moy headphone amp.

Indeed. Not daft are they. Incidentally, I owned both Grado SR80 & RS1 at the same time, took them both apart [as you do] the drivers were exactly the same in both... in fact the only difference was the wooden enclosure on the RS1. Sound familiar ?

[pjdowns]

Sorry to pull you up on your grammar old chap but the expressions are 'Linn Bashing' and 'Naim Calling'.

:lol: old chap... what a f**king liberty (as said by the Catherine Tate, Grandma impression)!!!

[Clive197]

This is what the doctor ordered. A bit of good old fashioned, low-complexity Linn bashing. Not that I imagine they will lose any sleep over it..:)

I wasn't Linn bashing, I was just saying it's Overpriced and Overrated

[pjdowns]

I wasn't Linn bashing, I was just saying it's Overpriced and Overrated

:lol: :lol: :rfl:

Subtle, I like subtle :lol:

[Marco]

Yes. £3K for MGs is ludicrous. What they sound like is irrelevant. A few years ago, you could pick up a good pair with crossovers for £1K tops. That, if they were in fab condition, was about what they were "worth" compared with an equivalent modern set of drivers (more accuractely, 4 drivers in place of the Tannoy DC 2). Its simply the Far East that's pushed up market prices and put these out of reach of most mortal people here in the UK. I happen to believe that the HPD, if properly implemented is a better driver, my own personal view and I know one not shared by many. A pair of 15 inch HPDs reconed and with crossovers can just about be had for £1K and that's a far better buy imho. Lancasters for £3K is a joke, really, it is. A decent set of bespoke cabinets can JUST be had for £3K but if you want furniture standard cabinets at 200 to 220 litres designed to maximise the best that 15 inch MGs can give, £3K is light...very light. Try £5K. the cost of the veneer alone for my Fidelios (178 litres) was £600. Add cost of rest of the timber, glues, and 180 to 200 hours of labour and there's not a snowball's chance in hell you'd get them anywhere for £3K. Basic ply boxes, such as GRF's which are relatively simple in construction, then yes. Cabinets to get the very best from them? No. I know that you may have got your Lockwoods cheaper and if so, they were good value. Still, a decent set of HPDs for a grand mated to stunning Cabs using bespoke crossovers and sounding like a million dollars for well under £10K suddenly starts to make sense when compared with some of the so-called high end, especially stand mounts at over £10K. I know what I'd rather look at and listen to...

Lol... Fairy muff! :D

It would certainly be interesting to compare HPDs, mated to stunning cabs, using bespoke crossovers, with what I've got going on with the Lockwoods, which incidentally cost me £4.5k in total (including all the crossover mods and a pair of 15" MGs), which I'm sure you'll agree, given the sonic performance on offer, is a total bargain. Unlike you, I also like their retro 'studio' looks, which just so happens to fit in with my rather old and 'retro' house - and my wife agrees...! ;)

However, going back to Tannoy 15" MGs, you never answered my question about how much you think they would cost to produce today? IMO, that is central to the argument of determining their intrinsic value now in the vintage market, regardless or not if they come with poor quality cabinets.

I still contend that £3K for the drive units, and a further £3-4k for some nice, well-made cabinets (such as Speedy Steve here produces - unlike you, I don't care about 'furniture quality') and top-notch crossovers, arriving at, say, £6-7k maximum for a pair of speakers that can compete with designs costing far in excess of that, represents a worthwhile investment. Therefore, on that point we'll have to agree to disagree.

Ultimately, I judge vintage loudspeakers solely on their sonic and musical performance, and where I consider that fits in, in terms of retail cost against today's designs, not on whether the vintage market has 'over-inflated' the price that I think they are worth. The fact that you think 15" MGs are only worth £1k is really neither here nor there, because the fact is, they don't perform like £1k speakers - they offer a performance FAR in excess of that value! :exactly:

However, the bottom line is that both your uber-designed HPD example, and my judiciously modified Lockwood Majors, represent two fantastic ways of achieving the highest 'sound-per-pound value' from a pair of loudspeakers, which today's designs would struggle to emulate at anything like their cost! :)

Marco.

[Reffc]

Marco

we seem to be coming at this from completely different angles. You asked me how much I thought they were worth and I responded. Their used value has nothing to do with what they would cost today, it has everything to do with market demand; that market demand doesn't necessarily have any relationship to comparative performance but does have everything to do with collectors and buyers in the Far East. There's a lot of Rose tinted glasses appeal to them but yes, they still perform well. I stand by what I said. They are not new so cannot be judged by new prices, most are 40 years old so prices must reflect that. Yes, they are very well made, and probably better than todays units in some respects. Certainly the time alignment seems to be better. I already said that your Lockwoods were a good buy for what you bought them for, and furniture quality may not matter to you but it matters to a lot of people and it matters to me. Just because it doesn't bother you and you live in a house where plain boxes fit in, there are plenty of other people wanting something nice and something where they get to choose the finish, so what's wrong with that? Why be disparaging about the reasons for buying quality? You could have chosen to buy a reliable banger, but instead you bought a flash car. Come on, you know perfectly well that there's nothing wrong with furniture grade if that's what someone wants. They're as much a piece of furniture as they are anything else and 10 years down the line they'll be judged on how they look as well as how they sound, not the initial purchase price. If you wanted a fair comparison with the so called "high end" today, try buying a pair of high end speakers finished in plain plywood...good luck! I was trying to offer a direct comparison between an EQUIVALENT completed loudspeaker today and the plain Jane Lancasters in undersized cabs are simply not worth what's being asked of them. I am perfectly able to build and supply plain cabs for under £3K and can do so easily. There's no monopoly on producing inexpensive plain cabinets but that simply wasn't where the discussion was. At least I didn't think so! Worth is whatever individual personal choice says it is.

[jandl100]

:thumbsup: I'll put in a vote for ART speakers. Owned the 'Stiletto 6' which were shite & heard the 'Emotion' which were shite... I cant understand the pricing, double what I think they're worth & they'll happily make your bank account another 5K lighter for a few silver crossover components :doh:



.... I sort of agree, the Emotions aren't shite but I did feel they needed to include a midrange driver

Ha, yep, spot on, James! :thumbsup:

The larger ART 2-ways I've heard have a hole in the middle you can drive an articulated truck through. :doh:
Jake's (lordmortlock) has/had a small pair of ART 2-ways and they weren't bad at all.

The pricing though, my god - I recall a UK Hifi show a few years ago - went into the ART dem room - small pair of 2-ways, sounding average. Reasonable for £2k, I thought - I asked the price -- £22,000. :eek: Nice work if you can get it! :lol:

[jandl100]

My own choices for overpriced / overrated?

Well, as Neil wisely said ....


...... but if it floats your boat then fair enough, there is plenty I like and rate that won't float some folks boat either - such is life :cool:

Regards Neil

But, I'll have a bash at stuff anyway :D --

Tannoy dual concentrics - wispy coloured mids - I've only ever heard one implementation that almost solves that issue
Linn - light and boppy - I literally hated the Unidisk I bought. I'd rather listen to a cheap car radio.
Klipsch Heresy II speakers - coloured!
Lowther drivers - yuk! Well, OK they're fast - but it strikes me as the baby/bathwater syndrome in spades
Focal speakers - hyped up detail masquerading as musical transparency
Luxman turntables - oooo, those old direct drives look yummy :drool: but they sound distinctly 2nd rate
BBC heritage speakers - Spendor, Rogers etc - musical interest is sacrificed at the altar of tonal accuracy
Old style 'Flat Earth' gear - manipulates the sound to make it sound 'impressive'. Hanging's too good for them. :eyebrows:

Just my two-penneth for now. I'm sure I can think of lots more. ;)

[Marco]

we seem to be coming at this from completely different angles. You asked me how much I thought they were worth and I responded. Their used value has nothing to do with what they would cost today, it has everything to do with market demand; that market demand doesn't necessarily have any relationship to comparative performance but does have everything to do with collectors and buyers in the Far East.


On that point you're right, and I totally agree. We're not so much 'coming at this from different angles', but rather I'm simply putting your (legitimate) views into a different context. As far as I'm concerned (note that this is simply how I look at things), the 'worth', in terms of cost, of any vintage audio component is solely derived from the sonic performance I know it is capable of producing when optimised, and in my opinion, how those factors compare with equipment that is available today.

Therefore, if a modified and upgraded £7k pair of loudspeakers, £3k of which is derived from the vintage 15" Tannoy Monitor Golds drive units inside, is capable of sonically outperforming designs today costing many times more, then the overall investment was 'worth' it, including the cost of the drive units themselves, no matter if it took spending £3k on a pair of Lancasters to obtain them!

Do you see my point? I'm not saying that you're wrong (you're not), but simply looking at things in a different way :)

Now, on the other hand, if we're talking about spending £3k on a pair of original Chartwell LS35as (as I think someone here mentioned), then that's a different matter entirely, as those are a very good example of the overrated and overpriced gear you're referring to, which quite simply would be murdered, sonically, by any £3k loudspeakers made today, or indeed other vintage speakers that deserve a £3k price tag! ;)

The other point here worth noting is that, in terms of my own position, when I discover equipment or speakers that I really like, I rarely sell them, and tend to keep them for years. Therefore, when buying vintage equipment, unlike others, it is almost never with a view of trying to recoup my initial investment, which of course means that I place a rather different emphasis on 'value' than most.


"Just because it doesn't bother you and you live in a house where plain boxes fit in, there are plenty of other people wanting something nice and something where they get to choose the finish, so what's wrong with that? Why be disparaging about the reasons for buying quality?"


I wasn't being disparaging; I was merely expressing my opinion. I apologise if it came across differently.

It's not so much to do with "plain boxes fitting in", but rather with, primarily, my viewing hi-fi equipment and loudspeakers as simply functional entities. For me, they exist for one purpose, and that is to reproduce recorded music to my satisfaction, not act as ornaments or 'objects of beauty'. If they look nice, it's a bonus!

Others are of course entitled to a different view. You should also remember that my system is housed in a dedicated room, where aesthetic considerations, in terms of equipment choice, are not paramount, unlike in other areas of the house where both my wife and I might feel differently!!


"You could have chosen to buy a reliable banger, but instead you bought a flash car."


Lol - that's such a bad example to use to support your argument! :nono:

Like everything else we purchase, including hi-fi equipment, the Merc was bought for a specific PRACTICAL purpose, which was to comfortably house 4 adults (and their respective luggage) on yearly trips abroad to France and Italy, including having room left over to store wine and food bought to bring back home - and most importantly, for it to be an enjoyable experience, hence the purchase of a "flash car" that would take it all in its stride.

I suspect that a "reliable banger" wouldn't quite have cut it in the same way!! :D


"Come on, you know perfectly well that there's nothing wrong with furniture grade if that's what someone wants. They're as much a piece of furniture as they are anything else and 10 years down the line they'll be judged on how they look as well as how they sound, not the initial purchase price."


Absolutely, Paul. People can buy whatever they like - and if they want "furniture grade" loudspeakers, then good luck to them. In 10 years time (if I'm still around) my Lockwood Majors will most likely still be where they are today: providing sterling service in my system as wonderful music-makers. If or when I ever sell them, I doubt that there will be a shortage of offers from enthusiasts, worldwide, who know their true value :)

Marco.

[seoirse2002]

Anything by Bose and most B&O, overpriced and overrated. :scratch:

I had a beogram 1700 tt for a while,and although not B&O top end,I really enjoyed the simplicity and it sounded great too.I currently have a Transcriptors....properly setup with the right arm,its superb and looks great...

[cloth-ears]

I had a beogram 1700 tt for a while,and although not B&O top end,I really enjoyed the simplicity and it sounded great too.I currently have a Transcriptors....properly setup with the right arm,its superb and looks great...

I did say most B&O. Some of their stuff was good but £400 for a telephone...............really?

[cloth-ears]

Anything Western Electric and also Dynatron valve gear. Well overpriced

[Lee1976]

Anything Nam or Linn over rated. B&W overpriced.

[losenotaminute]

Anything Nam or Linn over rated. B&W overpriced.

I take it you have listened to everything Naim and Linn have produced?

Lawrence

[Lee1976]

Not all but a lot. I have heard what you have in verious systems and it did nothing for me at all. But that's me as long as you like the sound they produce thats good. Me I just find them..........crap. Sorry.

[Old boy]

Hi Paul
As a matter of interest have you any experience involving the Tannoy 12 inch 3128 drivers ?
I have a pair and wondering what would be the best plan for them in the near future



Yes. £3K for MGs is ludicrous. What they sound like is irrelevant. A few years ago, you could pick up a good pair with crossovers for £1K tops. That, if they were in fab condition, was about what they were "worth" compared with an equivalent modern set of drivers (more accuractely, 4 drivers in place of the Tannoy DC 2). Its simply the Far East that's pushed up market prices and put these out of reach of most mortal people here in the UK. I happen to believe that the HPD, if properly implemented is a better driver, my own personal view and I know one not shared by many. A pair of 15 inch HPDs reconed and with crossovers can just about be had for £1K and that's a far better buy imho. Lancasters for £3K is a joke, really, it is. A decent set of bespoke cabinets can JUST be had for £3K but if you want furniture standard cabinets at 200 to 220 litres designed to maximise the best that 15 inch MGs can give, £3K is light...very light. Try £5K. the cost of the veneer alone for my Fidelios (178 litres) was £600. Add cost of rest of the timber, glues, and 180 to 200 hours of labour and there's not a snowball's chance in hell you'd get them anywhere for £3K. Basic ply boxes, such as GRF's which are relatively simple in construction, then yes. Cabinets to get the very best from them? No. I know that you may have got your Lockwoods cheaper and if so, they were good value. Still, a decent set of HPDs for a grand mated to stunning Cabs using bespoke crossovers and sounding like a million dollars for well under £10K suddenly starts to make sense when compared with some of the so-called high end, especially stand mounts at over £10K. I know what I'd rather look at and listen to ;)

[The Outcast]

I am not really fond of the Technics SL1210 to be honest. I think that they are going for silly prices on fleabay when you consider the condition of some examples. I think many companies can be accused of over pricing. Linn being guilty as hell. I do feel that Naim's high end amps are vastly over priced and in musical performance outclassed by some of it's own cheaper units. Musicl Fidelity are equally as guilty and from my own experience very unreliable compared to other brands i have used. Having had a good look inside the Tri Vista SACD player i had many years ago i felt totally robbed.
Most of all in would site DCS as without doubt one of the biggest p..s takers of them all with regards to over pricing.:sofa:

[Reffc]

Hi Paul
As a matter of interest have you any experience involving the Tannoy 12 inch 3128 drivers ?
I have a pair and wondering what would be the best plan for them in the near future


Hi Paul
As a matter of interest have you any experience involving the Tannoy 12 inch 3128 drivers ?
I have a pair and wondering what would be the best plan for them in the near future

Hi

Yes; the 3128 is the replacement to the 315A. I Think that the Balmorals used these but the only experience I have of them was with a late pair of Cheviots and the sound is very similar to a 315. The main difference was that it was a departure by Tannoy from using their AlNiCo magnets in favour of a more efficient and less costly material called Anisotropic Barium Ferrite. They have near identical Thiele small parameters as for the 315A so will work with the same cabinet dimensions for optimal performance (160 litre-ish ported to 200 litre) but interestingly will work in slightly smaller cabs without sacrificing too much performance (125 litres ported or larger). The interesting thing about them is that they were designed to launch Tannoy's appeal in the Far East where the assumption was that smaller footprint speakers would have greater appeal, and their power handling was made slightly less than the professional equivalent broadcast monitor drivers of the same period. The irony is that the Far East, whilst not being able to get enough of them (they were a great hit!) later pined for the AlNiCo Monitor Golds and HPDs in larger cabinets and that demand hasn't gone away with many MGs and HPD units being bought for the Far East today. In fact it's estimated that around 80% of sales of newer Prestige range is destined for the Far East...that's another story...

They're well worth building a set of speakers around and will work in the following cabinet designs: Cheviots, Balmorals, Windsors, Buckinghams but anything from 125 litres upwards is ideal with 160 being optimal.



They're worth slightly less than the 315A's. Crossover wise they use Tannoy's 1012 version crossover (1.2KHz). They'll work fine with slightly earlier 315 crossovers but the later revised crossover for the 315A is probably better. The magnets were less deep than the AlNiCos and this introduced some phase issues which I believe Tannoy tried curing with a x-over phase filter but the result wasn't very pretty as it created other issues, hence many people prefer using the 315A crossover. This means that they aren't as phase coherent at the crossover point as HPDs.

[Old boy]

Paul
Many thanks loads of info I was unaware of.

[walpurgis]

Hi Paul
As a matter of interest have you any experience involving the Tannoy 12 inch 3128 drivers ?
I have a pair and wondering what would be the best plan for them in the near future

I use Tannoy Cheviot II speakers which are equipped with the 3128 driver.

They sound superb and are definitely superior to the HPD 315 and the 12" Monitor Golds I've owned. As was mentioned, they were also used in the Balmoral speaker and I believe there's another model that used them, but I'm not certain. It may have been the Chertsey.

I've also picked up a pair of Tannoy Lynxes to experiment with. They use a similar driver, but with a harder fabric surround.

[Reffc]

I use Tannoy Cheviot II speakers which are equipped with the 3128 driver.

They sound superb and are definitely superior to the HPD 315 and the 12" Monitor Golds I've owned. As was mentioned, they were also used in the Balmoral speaker and I believe there's another model that used them, but I'm not certain. It may have been the Chertsey.

I've also picked up a pair of Tannoy Lynxes to experiment with. They use a similar driver, but with a harder fabric surround.

Out of interest Geoff, what x-overs do you use with these? If the 1012's, am I right in thinking they're 315A crossovers with some additional shunt capacitance in the HF section?

[Clive197]

Not all but a lot. I have heard what you have in verious systems and it did nothing for me at all. But that's me as long as you like the sound they produce thats good. Me I just find them..........crap. Sorry.

I really don't think you can say that Linn or for that matter Naim are crap!

They are merely Overpriced and Overrated!!

[YNWaN]

What about Naim power amps - the prices are eye-watering and the specs not very impressive at all. What are folk paying for there?

Have owned my Nap135's for twenty years and am yet to hear something I definitely want to replace them with.

[istari_knight]

Have owned my Nap135's for twenty years and am yet to hear something I definitely want to replace them with.

Not heard 135's myself but have had the 160 & 250. They all have a certain 'je ne sais quoi' that if you like not much else will do ! My DIY Nap clone has 'it' so it must be in the circuit :hmm:

[Marco]

Have owned my Nap135's for twenty years and am yet to hear something I definitely want to replace them with.

A nice valve amp that will drive your Yammies? ;) In all seriousness, it can happen - I've heard them on the end of (powerful) push-pull valve amps and they sound stunning!

I also like 135s, and owned a pair for a couple of years (before upgrading them with ECS 200W monoblocks). As with every amp, however, the Naims do have their limitations.

Marco.

[Lee1976]

I think I can and I did.

[losenotaminute]

A nice valve amp that will drive your Yammies? ;) In all seriousness, it can happen - I've heard them on the end of (powerful) push-pull valve amps and they sound stunning!

I also like 135s, and owned a pair for a couple of years (before upgrading them with ECS 200W monoblocks). As with every amp, however, the Naims do have their limitations.

Marco.

I think it's fair to say that (new) they are "over-priced" because you can get something which sounds just as good for a lot less, but to say they are over rated or "crap" as an earlier poster did is nonsense IMO.

When I was listening to Tony's amps we both remarked how similar they all sounded, once they had warmed up properly. I think to some extent a good amp, which is after all supposed to be transparent, is a good amp and that should be the end of the story. Certainly if you are trying to drive very difficult speakers or need a huge amount of power, then quality will tell. What do you think, can a "reference" amp make a huge difference in the same way that a reference source or set of speakers can over something that is merely very good?

Lawrence

[pjdowns]

Lawrence,

For me, I generally go on preference... I like Naim amps but cannot stand their speakers in any way shape or form ... although I know a number of people who like both or just their speakers!

Horses for corses as they say (although I probably spelt wrong!)

[Macca]

Have owned my Nap135's for twenty years and am yet to hear something I definitely want to replace them with.

No reason to replace them they are perfectly competent amps. Plus twenty years ago the pricing was not as crazy as it is now. I'm just making the point that they are very expensive for what they are, no doubt that is partly to retain exclusivity. Incidentally I am a big fan of the chrome Nait. As for Linn amps being crap? Nope! But again a bit pricey for the spec.

[YNWaN]

A nice valve amp that will drive your Yammies? ;) In all seriousness, it can happen - I've heard them on the end of (powerful) push-pull valve amps and they sound stunning!

I also like 135s, and owned a pair for a couple of years (before upgrading them with ECS 200W monoblocks). As with every amp, however, the Naims do have their limitations.

Marco.

I'm surprised my comments have engendered so much response; its funny how some hi-fi gear encourages such a strong emotional response.

Marco, I quoted your response because it broaches a number of different issues. Strangely (perhaps not so strange), most of the alternative amps I have really liked have been valve (push/pull as you suggest) but changing to the ones I have liked would be very expensive (most cheaper alternatives I haven't rated at all).

I'm not one who believes the 135's are without limitations, it's just that (so far) those limitations have so far proven to be less of a negative than those presented by the alternatives. These days, most of my system is custom so I'm not wed to the idea of using Naim (the opposite in some ways).

[walpurgis]

Out of interest Geoff, what x-overs do you use with these? If the 1012's, am I right in thinking they're 315A crossovers with some additional shunt capacitance in the HF section?

As I've not had the crossovers out of the cabinets yet I couldn't say. That's a job for this winter (when I find time). Not too rushed as the speakers are sounding superb. I have a pair of 315A crossover to compare them to.