View Full Version : To Spike or not to Spike?
cloth-ears
29-09-2013, 09:51
Some aspects of Hi-Fi are so ingrained in our psyche that we accept their existence without challenge. Spikes are a case in point. Who in their right mind would be stupid enough not to use spikes on a speaker.
A few weeks ago I was at a friend’s recording studio in Bedford. He was showing off his latest acquisition, a pair of Dynaudio M1.5 speakers. To my surprise these were mounted on sponge bases, not spikes (sacrilege). When I asked him why he said that everybody uses sponge. The reason being that they stopped any vibrations in the cabinet being transferred through the mixing desk and muddying up the midrange.
Always being one to experiment I got my old Kef Cresta’s out of the loft and tried them on sponges. Half expecting them to sound awful I was surprised as to just how good they sounded. The midrange was indeed less muddy, quite spacious in fact. I put the spikes back in and remembered why I had put them in the loft in the first place. They sounded dull and lifeless. Placing them back on sponges they were a completely different speaker. I listened to them for hours. Even the wife noticed the difference and that’s saying something. She preferred the sound they made on sponges.
Anybody else tried this?
Rothchild
29-09-2013, 10:32
Coupling vs Decoupling is a fairly contested and apparently not definitively understood aspect of speaker mounting.
I think the ideal solution is fairly context dependent. If it were a suspended wood floor I'd think I'd be looking to decouple (so the floor doesn't act as a boom box) indeed I have in the past on these surfaces used a paving slab with a couple of layers of carpet underneath and put the stand on those. On a solid concrete floor I'd be looking to couple the speakers to it (as the mass of the floor is probably sufficient to absorb the lowest frequency energy that may not be absorbed by the stand itself).
There's some useful 'leaping off' points for considering the various elements at work here: http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/630091.html
cloth-ears
29-09-2013, 12:33
Coupling vs Decoupling is a fairly contested and apparently not definitively understood aspect of speaker mounting.
I think the ideal solution is fairly context dependent. If it were a suspended wood floor I'd think I'd be looking to decouple (so the floor doesn't act as a boom box) indeed I have in the past on these surfaces used a paving slab with a couple of layers of carpet underneath and put the stand on those. On a solid concrete floor I'd be looking to couple the speakers to it (as the mass of the floor is probably sufficient to absorb the lowest frequency energy that may not be absorbed by the stand itself).
There's some useful 'leaping off' points for considering the various elements at work here: http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/630091.html
Thanks Marc, an interesting read. I’ll have to do some more experimenting.
icehockeyboy
29-09-2013, 12:46
Some time back, following a similar debate about coupling etc, I removed the spikes on my FB 1's and replaced them with some simple self adhesive pads, the sort you get from those cheap £1 type shops, and then put them onto the granite blocks again, to my ears it was an improvement.
cloth-ears
29-09-2013, 13:28
So the debate goes on, spikes or rubber? Hang on; I think I can see a business opportunity here. “RUBBER SPIKES” Everybody wins……………………………. :lol:
Sovereign
29-09-2013, 21:03
My speakers are large open baffles on caster wheels. I have always been a fan of coupling with cones.
After listening t my speakers for six months or so on caster wheels I popped some oak cones under them and everything tightened up and was way more focused and transparent. The mid range was more open and communicative.
Always interested in the topic .
Thing Fish
29-09-2013, 21:53
My speakers came with big arse spikes that screw into the base. They sound good to me.
realysm42
30-09-2013, 07:28
When I first had my ushers, I didn't fit the (cast iron) bases and spikes, when I did, the sound tightened up considerably, made them sound a lot better.
I've always found rigid, spiked speaker stands to increase clarity and reduce overhang (particularly in the bass).
I guess if the speaker is heavy enough castors will work in a similar manner , coupling to the speaker to the floor.
I guess if the speaker is heavy enough castors will work in a similar manner , coupling to the speaker to the floor.
Indeed - plus, it makes things a damn sight easier when adjusting loudspeaker positioning... ;)
With regard to spikes, I'm the spike-meister, as I reckon that there must be 100s of the buggers used (different shapes and sizes) in all my stacks of Mana!! :eek:
Marco.
When I last set up my speakers I temporarily placed the stand and speakers on some granite slabs I had which allowed them to be, quite easily, pushed around the carpet.
Yup, you can do that (and indeed I have done in the past). However you still have the issue then of lifting fairly heavy speakers on and off of slabs, and moreover, accurately trying to marry up where to position the spikes in relation to where the slabs were... With castors, you just move or swivel the speakers about, and when the 'sweet spot' has been found, you leave 'em there, with no further arsing around :)
Anyway, I have to be honest and admit that I'd never even have considered using castors (I've always been 'conditioned' to the efficacy of spikes), had my Lockwoods not already came with them fitted, and also some rather handy 'grab handles' on the sides, as shown here when we demonstrated an AoS system at Scalford:
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/2563/scalfordhall2010.jpg
You have to admire the Lockies' quirky 1960s studio pedigree! :eyebrows:
Marco.
That really is not funny :(
realysm42
30-09-2013, 08:53
3rded, wtf?!
Sorry, Andrei. I had to remove your comments, as they are inappropriate.
Marco.
Richard Kimber
30-09-2013, 11:21
The biggest improvement I made in the sound of my system was to take the spikes off. It's always worth trying, but I guess it depends on what type of floor you've got. Mine's not very good quality wood floorboards.
- Richard.
Audioman
30-09-2013, 11:34
Stands to reason if you've got carpet you need spikes to couple speakers to floor and avoid wobbling. Obviously spikes are impractical with laminates unless you use shoes. A softer coupling to hard surfaces may well sound better. Marco have you tried spikes or cones under the Tannoys? Of course may be difficult due to size an weight of those cabinets. Generally have found spikes to be better for stand mounting and floor standers in carpeted rooms.
Marco have you tried spikes or cones under the Tannoys? Of course may be difficult due to size an weight of those cabinets.
Hi Paul,
Nope - they're way too heavy to manoeuvre about, so I've no way of knowing whether spikes would be better, and the sound is superb with things the way they are, so I'm reluctant to fiddle.
However, do remember that at home I have a pair of Mana Soundbases underneath the speakers, which are spiked into the carpet. The castors of the Lockwoods then sit on top of heavy-duty MDF boards, which are placed on top (on separate spikes) of the (already) spiked metal frames, supporting the boards... See here:
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5181/lockwoodmajors027.jpg
I've tried using the speakers without the Soundbases, and whilst the sound was good, it is considerably better with them in situ.
Therefore, make of that what you will! :)
Marco.
Beobloke
30-09-2013, 13:37
Hi Paul,
Nope - they're way too heavy to manoeuvre about, so I've no way of knowing whether spikes would be better, and the sound is superb with things the way they are, so I'm reluctant to fiddle.
However, do remember that at home I have a pair of Mana Soundbases underneath both speakers, which are spiked into the carpet. The castors then sit on top of heavy-duty MDF boards, which are placed on top (on separate spikes) of the (already) spiked frames, supporting the boards... See here:
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5181/lockwoodmajors027.jpg
I've tried using the speakers without the Soundbases, and whilst the sound was good, it is considerably better with them in situ.
Therefore, make of that what you will! :)
Marco.
Dunno about spikes or castors, but you appeear to need longer speaker cable.... :D
Indeed... it's actually worse than that now, as since I bought the speaker cable, I put a few more levels of Mana under the L/H rack, nearest the R/H speaker, thus raising the amp up higher on that rack, and of course in turn stretching the speaker cable connected to it! :eek: :eyebrows:
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6308/iref.jpg
Do I give a f*ck? No, not really, as the system exists to reproduce recorded music accurately (in a dedicated room built for the purpose), and be fun to listen to, not look pretty! :ner:
Besides, at over £50 a metre, I'm way too mean to buy another 5m length of cable, which is what would be needed, in order for it not to stretch upwards on that side... Maybe one day, when I can be arsed and/or I am very bored! ;)
Marco.
Indeed - plus, it makes things a damn sight easier when adjusting loudspeaker positioning... ;)
Well, not if they then have to sit on Mana sub-bases.
Indeed, Mark, although there's a surprising amount of 'wiggle room' available, with the castors and speakers sitting on top of the boards (essentially acting as an 'isolated' small area of floor), especially when it comes to adjusting the angle of 'toe-in', which the Tannoys respond very sensitively to! ;)
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
30-09-2013, 16:38
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6308/iref.jpg
Bloody hell, you've installed a zip-wire for the rabbits!
Hamish's masterpiece rendition of the Lockwood Bunnies......
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/rabbitsfart.jpg
Oldpinkman
30-09-2013, 16:47
The biggest improvement I made in the sound of my system was to take the spikes off. It's always worth trying, but I guess it depends on what type of floor you've got. Mine's not very good quality wood floorboards.
- Richard.
Yup - foam sounds intersting - presumably pretty high durometer foam or they're going to wobble like weebles. I always thought the point of spikes was to keep em rock solid - but now I reflect on that idea I feel the tiniest bit embarrassed. However, I have always used spikes on a carpeted concrete floor. So the direct energy link (as opposed to isolating with foam) goes into a big "sink" - unlike a wooden floor where the speakers are effectively the bridge of an acoustic guitar, and the floorboards are the guitar body - adding a sound all of their own which the speaker manufacturer did not intend.
Might try some foam...:scratch:
Oldpinkman
30-09-2013, 16:49
Reminds me - long ago at Pink (very early days) when they were thinking of producing an active speaker using power amps from MYST, celestion launched the SL6 and then created the SL600 using PT's material - aerolam. The suggestion was to make the speaker cabinet out of solid foam like flower arrangers use. Needless to say it went nowhere...:doh:
Well, with respect, PT didn't invent Aerolam. Wharfedale did a speaker that used melamine skins over foam and you can now buy CF over foam.
The bridge and sounding board analogy is a nice idea but I don't think it is a very accurate one. My experience of spiking speakers to wooden floors is that they sound less coloured (not more).
Thing Fish
30-09-2013, 17:56
Mine are spiked which then sit on concrete slabs (I would like granite but cost presently prohibits this) which sit on thin compressed foam. The sort those yoga mats are made of.
It was the best solution for tight bass without it travelling too much through my suspended wooden floor and next door ( I live in a terrace house)
I thought I had a picture but can't find it at present.
Oldpinkman
30-09-2013, 17:59
Ah yes - you're quite right. It was just Celestion came down with a pair of SL600's and said "we've used your aerolam". I think Arthur pioneered bringing it from the helicopter industry (where he worked before) to mainstream audio. :)
And spikes have got to be feeding the energy into the floor - relative to foam. Maybe they isolate it relative to just putting the speakers or stands on the floor. I haven't tried - I have concrete floors as I said.
I think Arthur was the first to use Aerolam in the hi-fi industry (for the PT chassis); Celestion did use it later for the cabinet of the 600 and 700's (difficult to do). It's also used in the aeroplane industry and in boats. I use the CF/Nomex version in my own deck.
As my speakers are about the same weight as I am, I don't use spikes under them as the result would be big holes through the floor! I use adjustable inverted cups. Spikes are ok where you need to couple through carpet onto a sold floor. Not so good on suspended floors. Foam is extensively used in he recording industry but it's fun to experiment with your own DIY laminations of polystyrene/carpet squares or whatever at very low cost. One trick where boom may be an issue is to de-couple the bass from the floor boundary by raising the speaker further from the floor, as long as the tweeter is angled towards the listening position, or for stand mounts, invert the speakers.
Well, with respect, PT didn't invent Aerolam. Wharfedale did a speaker that used melamine skins over foam and you can now buy CF over foam.
The bridge and sounding board analogy is a nice idea but I don't think it is a very accurate one. My experience of spiking speakers to wooden floors is that they sound less coloured (not more).
Yes, my feeling too. I use little blobs of blutack - a requirement to properly mount speakers to Something Solid SL24 speaker stands - and floor spikes. My Mana rack is also directly spiked to my wooden floor, no phases, and this combination gives me the most natural and 'alive' sound. I did hear that Mana soundstages were originally designed for Mana Reference tables to work with concrete floors, but ultimately suspended wooden floors and spikes gives me the best illusion of real in my typical English house...
EDIT if I had a concrete floor then I would be looking at a level of decoupling, maybe some Auralex Platfoam or http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_gramma/sound_isolation_gramma.asp as spikes into concrete funnily enough sounds 'harder'...
bobbasrah
03-10-2013, 20:18
Oddly enough neil, the IPL speakers I have at home are set on tap washers on a spiked wooden raised platform filled with dry sand. A rather strange but remarkable combination with these TLs that Ivor designed, but they work well.
Tried messing around with them on a few occasions but they are heavy sods so it needs to be a serious improvement to be worth it. Every time I try it goes back to the original combo as best, although I have to add that these have only ever been on concrete floors.... The room is well treated but not overdamped, excellent and balanced reproduction in the main room, although I do get a slight bass boom when standing at the front door about 7 metres away with a bit of grunt... Keeps the gypsies away though...
wee tee cee
04-10-2013, 15:31
castors on original spendor stand sound fine on carpet, use them for the 63s to raise them up a bit aswell........nice to tuck them away at dinner time/kids visiting.....
cloth-ears
05-10-2013, 07:30
Sometime back in the late 70’s or early 80’s I had the good fortune to meet Dudley Harwood, (blatant name dropping). He told me that speaker cabinets were either “part of the problem or part of the solution”. He opted for thin but well damped walls. Not a spike to be seen, or for that matter any by-wire option. They sounded lovely as I recall, HLM Kk1 that is.
Indeed - plus, it makes things a damn sight easier when adjusting loudspeaker positioning... ;)
With regard to spikes, I'm the spike-meister, as I reckon that there must be 100s of the buggers used (different shapes and sizes) in all my stacks of Mana!! :eek:
Marco.
Marco, I see that you sometimes run Celestion 66s.....what do you stand these on? Spikes? Granite?
I have wood laminate on a solid floor.
Cheers
John
Sovereign
06-10-2013, 14:15
castors on original spendor stand sound fine on carpet, use them for the 63s to raise them up a bit aswell........nice to tuck them away at dinner time/kids visiting.....
I also found casters sounded good on carpet under me big OB speakers. But I found popping oak cones under them made a significant improvement, that's on a concrete floor.
I would really like to couple the speakers directly to the concrete and see what difference that makes but as me OBs must be about 60kg so that won't be happening anytime soon
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