Modifications to my hut - advice needed please

[Macca]

Got a builder coming in hopefully next week to gut my kitchen and bathroom and rebuild them in brand spanking new style. I've only been putting it off for ten years but now pretty much everything has stopped working so the time has come. Problem is I know nothing about this sort of thing, what anything costs and what is or isn't possible. I know more than a few of you live in show homes so I'd appreciate some advice given from experience.

I'm not really bothered about the 'look' as long as it is all tidy and very importantly easy to keep clean. So my first question is on flooring - what is a good floor to use that will run through both kitchen and bathroom (they adjoin) that will be hard wearing and easy to clean? I like the idea of stone or slate - is it expensive? also I can't really raise the floor level at all. Is there a composite material that can be used instead? Help me out here, folks.

[MikeMusic]

If you can dig up the floor, honest, I'm serious, dig down a bit, put in the insulation that is mandatory in new builds and make the place warmer and cheaper to run. From what you say I think you might want to raise it so that should be easy
Insulation with concrete on top is fine

On top of that we put engineered wood, tongue and groove which has now been down 4 years and looks a bit knackered in the kitchen. Doubt any good for the bathroom where we have tiles with a heat pad under which the other half insisted on.

Go and look at various showrooms for bathroom and kitchen. You may see some must have items.

BTW. Do you trust this builder with your home ?

[Ali Tait]

Aye, polished concrete should be relatively cheap and looks good. You can add the colour of your choice to the mix.

[StanleyB]

I used a tile of some sort in the kitchen that looks like wood. I'll see if I can find the website of the company that I bought it from.
But I wanted the kitchen floor look darker and the bathroom floor look lighter. So I fitted a different set of tiles in the bathroom.
Mind you, I spent two years messing about with an architect drawing package to work out the position of everything in both the kitchen and the bathroom. That even included the lighting and how the shadows looked. Then the wife decided on the colours of the cabinets, tiles, etc. based on how they looked in the 3D rendition. Worked out quite well in the end and was spot on.

[Oldpinkman]

Vinyl floorings are tough, easy to clean, relatively inexpensive, can look like wood, tile or stone, and are much warmer to walk on. The modern floors are a far cry from the old "Marley tile" (I used to work for Marley too long ago). Personally I like real tiles, but they are inclined to crack, dirt eventually gets into deteriorating grout, they are more expensive and the vinyl floors can be VERY convincing copies of the originals, until you reach down and touch them.

[Macca]

Thanks for the replies. Firstly I don't like this idea of digging down - that sounds like one hell of a job although I agree polished concrete would be a good solution. Yes I trust the builder, he is the stepson of an old friend, so no issues there. I don't want to use vinyl flooring if I can help it, IME it stains too easily and it wears out. There is no way I am trawling around kitchen and bathroom centres, I'd rather shoot myself in the head. I don't have any interest in how it looks, it just has to work and be practical and long-lasting, there is no Mrs Macca to please but likewise no-one to do all that hard work and decision making for me either :)

Another question - electric showers - been using a pals brand new one (as I have no hot water at the mo) and it simply doesn't put out enough water, probably some eco-thing. I want something that will drain a reservoir on its own - any recommendations there?

[MikeMusic]

Balance your set up time, digging down and going looking with the prospect of living with something that tees you off all the time.

One of my mottos. Trust no one

You could get free kitchen and bathroom estimates from various

Showers various answers.
Assume Megaflow is out of it on cost for the size
Have you room for a hot water tank ?
If so get that and a power shower and all should be fine unless you shower for a very long time
Your mate might be fine with a bigger electric shower or possibly head room for the tank...

[Macca]

Mike

Hot water source currently is an immersion tank - there is also cold water tank above it. Current shower is passive with a pump to give water pressure as both tanks are on the ground floor. The house was updated in 1973 and has not been touched since then except for new kitchen units some time in the early eighties, and double glazing that I had installed when I bought the place in '98. No boiler, no central heating etc. I am going to have to stay in an hotel (or more likely some sort of 'travel lodge' just like Alan Partridge) during the bulk of the work so a quick job is mandatory for keeping costs down. I don't need the central heating but I am quite keen on getting one of those boilers that heat the water as and when you use it. Not sure what they are called or what they cost. Cost isn't a factor provided I get what I want.

[jollyfix]

Hi Martin, why cant you raise the floor level? What size are the kitchen and bathroom?

[Macca]

Hi Dave

Kitchen about 8 feet by 12, bathroom about 8 feet by four. There is a vestibule between kitchen and bathroom where the back door is - also about 8 by 4 but this area contains the water tanks which take up about half that. If I raise the floor that means a step up into the kitchen from the living room but also means getting a new back door which I want to avoid if possible.

[jollyfix]

The back door (if wood) could be cut down, if upvc then i assume the bottom of door frame should give enough hight for a tiled floor. Water tanks? if hot water cylinder then this will go if you are fitting a condense/ combi boiler. There will only be a small step from living room to kitchen, and if done right would be a bullnose or slight slope. I like tiles ( nat stone), + grout these days much better than in the past.

[MikeMusic]

Mike
Hot water source currently is an immersion tank - there is also cold water tank above it. Current shower is passive with a pump to give water pressure as both tanks are on the ground floor. The house was updated in 1973 and has not been touched since then except for new kitchen units some time in the early eighties, and double glazing that I had installed when I bought the place in '98. No boiler, no central heating etc. I am going to have to stay in an hotel (or more likely some sort of 'travel lodge' just like Alan Partridge) during the bulk of the work so a quick job is mandatory for keeping costs down. I don't need the central heating but I am quite keen on getting one of those boilers that heat the water as and when you use it. Not sure what they are called or what they cost. Cost isn't a factor provided I get what I want.

If you truly want a shower that will beat you half to death then you need to spend money. We went to Megaflow as it's now a 3 storey house.
A Combi boiler will give you hot water when you need it. May work for a shower as you need it, but maybe not the flow you want.
For keeping costs down have your guy detail what happens when. Look at critical paths.
Our builders could plan a piss up in a brewery but it would have been disjointed and they would have run out of something or other, prhaps asked all to bring their own glasses
Insulating the floor will pay you back again and again, especially with fuel costs rising. Certainly more than pay for a few more days away

[Macca]

You're right, door is wood so could be modified, plus a slope rather than a step. Thanks for that Dave, these are the sort of things I struggle to envisage on my own. Not really the practical type, you see. I'll discuss it all with the gadgee when he turns up for his recce but I really need ideas as a starting point so if anyone has any contributions please make them.

I'll post some before and after pictures once things get going - the before pictures are pretty bad! Andre will have to cover his eyes!

[Macca]

If you truly want a shower that will beat you half to death then you need to spend money. We went to Megaflow as it's now a 3 storey house.
A Combi boiler will give you hot water when you need it. May work for a shower as you need it, but maybe not the flow you want.
For keeping costs down have your guy detail what happens when. Look at critical paths.
Our builders could plan a piss up in a brewery but it would have been disjointed and they would have run out of something or other, prhaps asked all to bring their own glasses
Insulating the floor will pay you back again and again, especially with fuel costs rising. Certainly more than pay for a few more days away

The shower doesn't have to be Niagra Falls, I just don't want one of those eco-things that is like showering under a watering can. As for the organisation my plan is to hand the builder a large envelope full of cash, the keys to the house and tell him to call me when he's finished. Hmm, you're suggesting that is not a good idea?

I will ask about floor insulation - I don't heat any of the rooms but the living room so my bills are pretty low anyway but I will bring it up with him and see what he thinks. Cheers, Mike.

[jollyfix]

Martin if you go for tiles, then if using natural stone ( slate/ trav etc), then ask builder what addy he will use, and what sealer will be used for the tiles. He should offer you a choice on sealer finishes ( matt, satin etc). Ask what primer too.
Make sure everything you want done is written on his quote. do not assume he will do a job if he has not quoted for it.
I assume you will be fitting new cooker/hob etc, if gas, make sure he has a gas safe cert, if not and he says he will be sub contracting a plumber for this check they have a gas safe cert, and make sure he/she will be there to do work when needed so no delay to the refurb.
Ask if he has insurance.
How did you contact this builder? check his references etc.

[MikeMusic]

The shower doesn't have to be Niagra Falls, I just don't want one of those eco-things that is like showering under a watering can. As for the organisation my plan is to hand the builder a large envelope full of cash, the keys to the house and tell him to call me when he's finished. Hmm, you're suggesting that is not a good idea?
I will ask about floor insulation - I don't heat any of the rooms but the living room so my bills are pretty low anyway but I will bring it up with him and see what he thinks. Cheers, Mike.

A large shower head could help but you still need flow ad that means a decent supply. Previously we had a hot water tank and a power shower. Worked fine.

Back to my often used motto
Trust no one.
Our builders were nice guys almost to a man. Would share their last sandwich with you. Honest as the day is long (most again)
Planning their way out of a paper bag ? - hmmm, not so good
You must have a schedule or if not at least speak to people he has worked for before.
Our build was 7-8 months. We worked on 9 to be safe. Took 14. Think of your hotel bills
Insulation is everything - I learned. So much more comfortable as well as a lot cheaper. We had our garage extended into a 1 bed flat for the build. Insulated to the 2009 spec. Heating on for 15 minutes was enough. Never been anywhere that comfortable

And just one other thing

Trust no one, at least until they have proved to be utterly reliable.
Our builders were on site 90% of the time.
Most builds you hear of they turn up 1 day in about 3 or 4, fitting in other jobs
Visit daily, at least to start

[Macca]

Martin if you go for tiles, then if using natural stone ( slate/ trav etc), then ask builder what addy he will use, and what sealer will be used for the tiles. He should offer you a choice on sealer finishes ( matt, satin etc). Ask what primer too.
Make sure everything you want done is written on his quote. do not assume he will do a job if he has not quoted for it.
I assume you will be fitting new cooker/hob etc, if gas, make sure he has a gas safe cert, if not and he says he will be sub contracting a plumber for this check they have a gas safe cert, and make sure he/she will be there to do work when needed so no delay to the refurb.
Ask if he has insurance.
How did you contact this builder? check his references etc.

Builder is the step son of a friend and is very experienced and competent so I am not in the slightest bit concerned about getting a cowboy job or being ripped off. That's one of the main reasons I am going ahead with this. What I don't want is to not get what I want because I did not know to ask for it, if you see what I mean?

[jollyfix]

Do not hand him a load of cash!!! do not tell him to call when all done!! keep an eye on the progress , if he does something wrong, or something you don't like best to sort asap. Also if he does something you like etc, then tell him. he will appreciate it.
He may want some cash up front for materials, but pay for materials in stages for each part of the job.

[Oldpinkman]

Shower
If you get a big combi with a decent flow rate it will provide a shower with all the force you want provided your mains has at least 3 bar of pressure.
Only if you are alone in the house!
We have one - and a really good Aqualisa thermostatic mixer valve / bath tap. If someone runs a tap while we are showering the pressure drops to a trickle (but you don't get your back scalded!)

Otherwise - if you have 1.5m head of water (cold water tank above hot) then pumps - even a Wickes basic - are great. Rules
Pumps push rather than pull water - mount near the tank
You are after flow rate not pressure - use and essex flange on the hot water tank to provide an own supply
Although the pump is likely to have 15mm connectors, use a straight coupling connector to step up to 22mm as close to the pump as possible
Keep 90 degree corners to a minimum - but use 22mm where you have to have them
Get a decent mixer valve and shower head (Aqualisa are expensive, but worth the money for me)

The other alternative is the French system which is available in this country now. It uses a sealed pressurised hot water tank - which stores hot water like your current system (rather than heat as you go with a combi) but "powers" the water out with mains pressure rather than rely on gravity from a tank above.

[jollyfix]

Oopps writing before i seen your post Martin.

[Andrew B]

I'm about to do a room myself. This is what I'm fancying, although I'll source it locally if possible.

http://www.wallsandfloors.co.uk/range/natural-granite-tiles/quartz-stone-mirror-tiles/

[bobbasrah]

Given limits on floor digging Martin, it means whatever you do is going up, and you will have a step.
Low flow on many electric showers is down to wattage as they can only heat so much on a continuous basis, however, you can change a lethargic flow by changing the shower head for a tighter nozzle head quite effectively. Flow is the same, just the jets are smaller so velocity goes up...

[jollyfix]

if you are not sure on what to ask for, get some idea by visiting a few show rooms, even the diy sheds will do, have you seen a kitchen in a friends home you like, if so what did you like about it, could you try and do the same in the space you have? I would think about what you or your mrs didnt like about your old kitchen, and try and address that. You may have found like most its lack of storage. There are so many great things on the market these days, pull out larders, kick board draws etc.
Just ask him, what he would do, he may suggest some good ideas about new layout or similar.

[MikeMusic]

if you are not sure on what to ask for, get some idea by visiting a few show rooms, even the diy sheds will do, have you seen a kitchen in a friends home you like, if so what did you like about it, could you try and do the same in the space you have? I would think about what you or your mrs didnt like about your old kitchen, and try and address that. You may have found like most its lack of storage. There are so many great things on the market these days, pull out larders, kick board draws etc.
Just ask him, what he would do, he may suggest some good ideas about new layout or similar.
+1
You could end up with something quite wonderful and a joy to live in - or a lot less, even just by positioning the same stuff differently.
You will not want to change it once it's there so put time into the setup.

[Gordon Steadman]

There is no way I am trawling around kitchen and bathroom centres, I'd rather shoot myself in the head. I don't have any interest in how it looks, it just has to work and be practical and long-lasting, there is no Mrs Macca to please but likewise no-one to do all that hard work and decision making for me either :)


Whilst I can sympathise with not wanting to trawl around, do you know what experience the guy has with kitchens? It was part of my business on and off for most of my life (you can see a couple on my Flickr page) Its possible to completely cock up the way it works and make life difficult for yourself. Its not just the cooker and sink to worry about but where everything else goes too. When you have a plan, I'm quite happy to look it over. You can obviously ignore any suggestions but it won't hurt to have another head on it.

[Macca]

Update:

Had a visit from the builder with a sparky in tow. My electrics are shagged so there is some extra expense right there. Electric shower is out as it means running a cable all the way from the front to the back of the house, taking up the upstairs floorboards etc. As it is earths will need to be run through the loft space, anyway. Combi boiler and a radiator in the kitchen, heated towel rail in the bathroom. Thats £2K just for that :o

Otherwise it is all striaghtforward, work is scheduled to start first week of November.

AS the sparky is going to be in for quite a while I can get him to do some hi-fi related upgrades while he is there. What are those unswitched sockets called? I keep thinking MK Ultra but that is something else entirely. Also I recall some tweak with the mains fuse? Can anyone remind me? The sparky already thinks there is something not right with me so nothing more to lose there :)

[MikeMusic]

Update:

Had a visit from the builder with a sparky in tow. My electrics are shagged so there is some extra expense right there. Electric shower is out as it means running a cable all the way from the front to the back of the house, taking up the upstairs floorboards etc. As it is earths will need to be run through the loft space, anyway. Combi boiler and a radiator in the kitchen, heated towel rail in the bathroom. Thats £2K just for that :o

Otherwise it is all striaghtforward, work is scheduled to start first week of November.

AS the sparky is going to be in for quite a while I can get him to do some hi-fi related upgrades while he is there. What are those unswitched sockets called? I keep thinking MK Ultra but that is something else entirely. Also I recall some tweak with the mains fuse? Can anyone remind me? The sparky already thinks there is something not right with me so nothing more to lose there :)
No huge surprise about the electrics. Good news is that alone should make the SQ better
You can have a plain vanilla MK or other unswitched socket
Then you go up through either MCRUs range,
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/search?controller=search&orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=socket&submit_search=Search
Missing Link, Russ Andrews or other.
The biggest mains cable and circuit breaker you can legally have is good.
With a separate there and back spur for the hifi all to itself.
Plus super duper earth. Whatever he suggests go for bigger and deeper.
There is also the multi earth spikes Marco has mention somewhere abouts

[Rothchild]

Something that we learned the hard way when we did the last place is that if you're going to have a stone / tile / concrete floor you should consider putting underfloor heating in with it (the stick down electric wire ones are pretty straightforward) Stone / tile looks great but if you wander in for a cuppa on a cold winter morning and you forgot to put your slippers on you might get frostbite! (ok, maybe I'm exagerating but there were days when it was decidely uncomfortable)

[MikeMusic]

Something that we learned the hard way when we did the last place is that if you're going to have a stone / tile / concrete floor you should consider putting underfloor heating in with it (the stick down electric wire ones are pretty straightforward) Stone / tile looks great but if you wander in for a cuppa on a cold winter morning and you forgot to put your slippers on you might get frostbite! (ok, maybe I'm exagerating but there were days when it was decidely uncomfortable)

I so wish we had underfloor when we refurbed.
Got talked out of it by damned builders

[Macca]

Underfloor is not going to happen, neither is the seperate spur for the hi-fi, the bill for the essentials is already going to be eye-watering. I don't like spending money :) - the fancy sockets will happen though.

[MikeMusic]

Underfloor is not going to happen, neither is the seperate spur for the hi-fi, the bill for the essentials is already going to be eye-watering. I don't like spending money :) - the fancy sockets will happen though.
A separate spur could be very little, couple of extra runs of cable so a few quid and gain you a lot.
I'd go for underfloor heating if I could but keep an eye on the pennies

[Rothchild]

Underfloor is not going to happen, neither is the seperate spur for the hi-fi, the bill for the essentials is already going to be eye-watering. I don't like spending money :) - the fancy sockets will happen though.

I'd go with Richard's suggestion of vinyl flooring then. Karndean seem to make some really good stuff, it does appear that the technology behind it has moved on a fair bit and it's all pretty robust now.

[jollyfix]

I'd go with Richard's suggestion of vinyl flooring then. Karndean seem to make some really good stuff, it does appear that the technology behind it has moved on a fair bit and it's all pretty robust now.
Very true, and very good suggestion + no height issues too.

[Macca]

Floor will be fake slate as the real thing is too pricey. I don't walk about bare foot amyway, I always get fully dresssed as soon as I get out of bed so it is no issue. Fully tarted up the house is worth about £65K in the current market so there is a point at which spending more becomes a bit silly. Thanks for all the suggestions so far, it has been a great help.