The importance of a good analogue source

[StanleyB]

Reading all the comments from Bushmaster MKII owners, I started to wonder about one aspect of the listening experience each person went through and that is worth discussing. And it is the analogue system that each of us own.

Let's forget about digital for a second and consider just the analogue aspect of the route that an audio signal might take. If we accept that owners of a BM2 are now able to hear previously hidden or unclear sounds, then we also have to accept that the amps, cables, and speakers were capable of reproducing those sound all along as well. But the previous lack of a source that could produce those signals in a clear and distinguishable fashion appears to have been the bottle neck.

The lack of a good source must surely have caused many of us to question the ability of certain components downstream in our system at some time of ownership. I can recollect the numerous times I got rid of a piece of kit, only to find out later that I had sold the wrong item. I very much doubt that I am the only one who has done that.

Just imagine the scene where you get rid of a piece of kit because of some flaw you have found in it. But when discussing it on a forum other owners might challenge and contradict you. Have you ever taken the time to wonder why you couldn't achieve the same quality results with the same item? And did the replacement solve the problem? In most cases it won't. And that's because the actual culprit is still in your system, but is not under suspicion.

So how far should we go in trying to get a better sound? Are we making the change in the hope that it will fill a void? How does one know when we have the right frontend acting as reference for everything else in the system?

[worrasf]

So how far should we go in trying to get a better sound? Are we making the change in the hope that it will fill a void? How does one know when we have the right frontend acting as reference for everything else in the system?

Ha so! The sound of one hand clapping

http://www.101zenstories.com/index.php?story=21


Steve

:clapclapclap:

[Barry]

Ha so! The sound of one hand clapping

http://www.101zenstories.com/index.php?story=21




Oh dear - the raconteur of such "zen stories" clearly has no real idea of the purpose of koans. Koans are 'questions' put to Zen Buddhist students to encourage them to 'think outside the box': they don't have a direct answer.

A correct response to the 'question' "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" would be "life without death", since one is impossible without the other, just as clapping is impossible without two hands.

[Oldpinkman]

That sounds frighteningly akin to the linn chip "source first" proposal (brainwashing)
There is an element of truth - but it can lead to the false conclusion you should spend tens of thousands on a source to feed a pair of linn kans.
I haven't had the privilege of hearing a bushmaster personally, but would be surprised if it reveals any detail I miss on dacapo.

Either way - it wouldn't change the stifled sound of the arcam power amp or make the ventricals play a bass organ note like the organ in the albert hall.

But the issue of the source we reference against is always interesting, and the basic linn chip point that what is lost at the start can never be recovered downstream is valid.

That and tbe sucker feed to arthur about needle talk remind me I must ponce an fx2 off him to give my needle from arizona a proper listen to now my precious quad is only a day away:)

[kininigin]

Oh dear - the raconteur of such "zen stories" clearly has no real idea of the purpose of koans. Koans are 'questions' put to Zen Buddhist students to encourage them to 'think outside the box': they don't have a direct answer.

A correct response to the 'question' "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" would be "life without death", since one is impossible without the other, just as clapping is impossible without two hands.

Or you could say,there is life without death,if consciousness transfers to a different reality! Consciousness being energy and therefore cannot be destroyed,just changed to a different state,thereby being eternal. And to clap with one hand merely requires two people :ner:

[StanleyB]

I haven't had the privilege of hearing a bushmaster personally, but would be surprised if it reveals any detail I miss on dacapo.
It depends on whether it is a TC-7530DC (MKI) or TC-7533 (MKII).
You might not hear it with a MKI but if it is there in the first place it will be heard with the MKII. The MKII is mostly about 0 and 1 retrieval down to 24 bit level.

[Oldpinkman]

It depends on whether it is a TC-7530DC (MKI) or TC-7533 (MKII).
You might not hear it with a MKI but if it is there in the first place it will be heard with the MKII. The MKII is mostly about 0 and 1 retrieval down to 24 bit level.

Ah my listening has all been at 'umble red book level to date. Would be interested to hear both the comparison of the 2 dacs on CD, and a bit of 24 bit audio if anyone near Maidstone has the necessary. 24 bit is on my "to do" list :)

[StanleyB]

Would be interested to hear both the comparison of the 2 dacs on CD, and a bit of 24 bit audio if anyone near Maidstone has the necessary. 24 bit is on my "to do" list :)
Aah, the ol' "you spend, I enjoy" approach. Brush that dusty wallet off and put some coins in the economy ;).

[anthonyTD]

Interesting Post Stan,
And something i am sure many of us have had to question at some point, i have always concentrated on getting the middle section as best as i can, as far as amplification, and tended to leave the front end i use mostly [digital] up to those i trust to know more about that side than myself, however, i have done quite a bit with turntables, and phono-stages etc.
I often come across people who tell of great items of hi fi they have had and passed on before realizing the error of their ways, a feel a lot is down to how confident one is about how we perceive what we are hearing, and therefore having the ability to get to know and understand which parts of the chain are indeed the strong and weak points etc...
There are many folk who intrinsically believe that if you throw enough money at it, it will indeed come right, but as many of us here know from experience, that only happens on exceptionally rare occasions...
The source is therefore in my opinion the piece in the chain that has the greatest influence in a good system, and therefore,the piece that will make or break it
A...

[Yomanze]

It depends on whether it is a TC-7530DC (MKI) or TC-7533 (MKII).
You might not hear it with a MKI but if it is there in the first place it will be heard with the MKII. The MKII is mostly about 0 and 1 retrieval down to 24 bit level.

Hi Stan, what do you mean 24bit level? Are you saying that the MKII has a dynamic range of 144db? The DAC chip in the Bushmaster has a dynamic range of 104db, which is under 18 bits.

[Oldpinkman]

Aah, the ol' "you spend, I enjoy" approach. Brush that dusty wallet off and put some coins in the economy ;).

More a reciprocal opportunity for a bushmaster owner. i think they call them "bake-offs" here. Until I get to grips with this 24 bit malarky, I am in truth very happy with my recently reunited 22 bit DaCapo (note to self - borrow new filters from Arthur). Mr K and Mr Westlake met up in Munich and chatted about old times. I'm watching this space atm...

(And if you are watching this space John, could do with you picking up the phone!!!) :)

[StanleyB]

John is probably far too busy with is £800 DAC upgrade.
I has a chance to compare the MKII against a MDAC a few months ago as it happens.

[Jimbo]

I think I would start by removing any digital devices - errr that makes the bushmaster redundant-sorry. I would go back to pure analogue devices - like a turntable:lol:

[Oldpinkman]

John is probably far too busy with is £800 DAC upgrade.
I has a chance to compare the MKII against a MDAC a few months ago as it happens.

What did you think? I auditioned MDac twice - neither under "fair" circumstances - and planned to take 7oaks HiFi up on a home audition offer before I was stunned to see a working DaCapo 22 bit for £300 on fleabay and bit his hand off. I was under-whelmed with MDac, but as I say the circumstances of the auditions were less than perfect (It was better than the reference cd player and dac in the shop, but that wasn't saying a lot). I see there are bugs in the first incarnation. That isn't a unique experience - but they boy can design a dac. Yes - he's flat out with MDac2 I'm sure. I wonder what length of digital interconnect he uses? Especially for the bridge to the headphone amp :scratch:

[StanleyB]

I was under-whelmed with MDac, but as I say the circumstances of the auditions were less than perfect (It was better than the reference cd player and dac in the shop, but that wasn't saying a lot). I see there are bugs in the first incarnation. That isn't a unique experience - but they boy can design a dac. Yes - he's flat out with MDac2 I'm sure.
Your words, not mine. But I have no reason to question your personal opinion if it is based on personal experience and when compared to my own.

The first edition of many things can have bugs in them that can only be sorted by an upgrade of some sort. Windows is no doubt the most famous of them all. But even my own Bushmaster needed a major upgrade to a MKII to correct some bugs. But at least I throw in the case as well as part of the upgrade and let the customers keep the old parts, which are highly sought after on ebay etc.

[Stratmangler]

I think I would start by removing any digital devices - errr that makes the bushmaster redundant-sorry. I would go back to pure analogue devices - like a turntable:lol:

Why not improve on that and take up lute, or bouzouki, or .... :D

[StanleyB]

Why not improve on that and take up lute, or bouzouki, or .... :D
Can't beat live music even if sung by a drunk in a karaoke bar of ill repute.

[Oldpinkman]

Can't beat live music even if sung by a drunk in a karaoke bar of ill repute.

Clearly you havent heard me play guitar! :(

[StanleyB]

Clearly you havent heard me play guitar! :(
:doh:. It's not about the quality, but the accuracy behind the experience. A good music track should reflect an atmosphere of being there. Tone controls and equalizers can be used afterwards if one is after a nice sanitized version.

[worrasf]

Can't beat live music even if sung by a drunk in a karaoke bar of ill repute.

Anyone near Hereford on Saturday 19 October drop in and see Eira Snow play at The Bishop's Palace for a live music experience.

See: http://www.eirasnow.co.uk/
The long haired weirdo with the sax is my brother in law :mental:
His sister got all the good family genes ;)

Steve