1210 - Journey to audionirvana @ PT

[Tiff_Needle]

So, finally...

A few spare minutes to kick-off this glorious new journey ...

(an audiofool as to exaggerate is new findings just for the make believe that every cent he spends as actual scientific arguments that supports is ventures, right? :lol: )

So after a proper presentation (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?27883-Hello-from-Lx-PT) and your more than warm welcome greetings, I hereby officially start a thread that I hope will help me be guided through on this new journey.


As already mentioned on my welcome thread, I've just recently (my gosh, two weeks have already passed? And still no 1210 feeding milivolts to my pre-amp!?!!? What a crime...) acquired a brand new, mint, boxed 1210 mk2 as my first TT rig!

My current setup is composed by:

- Jeff-Rowland Model 6 w/ BPS-6 Battery power supplies - power amp

- Jeff-Rowland Synergy IIi - pre

- Monitor Audio PL300 (Considering the Apogee duetta signature path refurbed w/ Graz's new ribbons and updated XOvers)

- Sony SCD-1 (considering abandoning for good the phisical digital media - So... I'll have to say "see you in the afterlife my cherished love" to the SCD-1 someday...)

- Abrahamsen V6 DAC (Temporary DAC - Several serious DACs up for auditioning)

- Mac Mini w/ AudioNirvana +

- Technics SL 1210 mk2 - completely stock

- No phono Stage Yet - (Considering Jeff-rowland Cadence - A bit steep for what I was thinking)

- Spectral HE2002-BG-AL rack

Objective: get the most of the 1210, step by step. DD T/T are indeed special. Let's see if this fellow can cup up with my remaining rig.

Biggest challenge (in a newbie's perspective): How to overcome the known limitations of the 1210 (and most DD) in terms of sound-staging!!!!

Passion: Enjoy and be immersed in music instead of being happy for an hour showing off a fatigating, over-analitical, dull, all bells and whistles high-end system to friends that doesn't really give me any personal pleasure. (Came from a 15+ years living with CJ system and its over-kodachrome presentation that simply gave great pleasure listening to)




I've already read several threads here, over AoS, and from what I've read I came to the following conclusions:



Upgrades to consider, not necessarily on the correct order in terms of priority...

- MN Bearing

- Paul Hynes PSU - SR7-EHD PSU w/

TDR21 dual 21-volt regulator module
S1709v4LN regulator module
Z1705LN regulator module

- Funk Firm Platter/5mm Achromat

- Isonoe Isolation feet (should I complement them w/ Sorbothane boots?)


Cartridge:

Now here is a serious issue... My 1210 is currently cartridge-less, and I really want to put it operational ASAP. But...

I really don't wish to spend a bloat load of money on a temporary cartridge just to buy another one after I've fitted a new arm on it! No way... Nor whish to spend a bloat load of money on a cartridge (I do have other bad, money spending, habits..)

As mentioned before, no phono stage yet, so that could be a plus as I could end buying a phono stage that would mate with the selected cartridge. But, I must say that I'm very inclined to a Cadence phono stage (I already have a unit waiting for me somewhere in Netherlands) for several of reason. The only drawback really is price. It comes at a modestly steeped cost!

Here is a short list of what I'm considering (based only on literature and not actual experience):

Denon DL-103R (***)

Audio-Technica AT-33EV(****)

BENZ-MICRO MC GOLD (****)

Ortofon 2M Bronze (**)

Goldring 1042 (**)


* = to were my inclination points at

Tone Arm:

Oooff, another headache!

Really need your help here...

SME 3009?

SME V? (Way more than what I was considering, euro/pound/dollar.. wise)

Jelco? (First time I've heard of it was actually here. No past experience whatsoever)



Well, for starters I think that this pretty much sums up what a 1210 newbie (actually, turntable newbie really) was able to gather in a few hours...

Now experts, can you please step in and share your wise wisdom with me :mental: ?


First two questions:

1 - Where do I start

2 - Which cartridge should I go for. (would be used for now on the stock 1210 arm... but keep in mind what I've wrote above)



PS: I really need to start putting price tags on all of this and collect as may contacts as possible on where can I get this stuff.

Project Deadline: Somewhere in the beginning of FY15, so that gives me what, a year and a half?!

[Tarzan]

First and foremost Jonathan, you will need to set a budget, to avoid expensive/ timewasting mistakes?

A bit of a generalisation l know.

[Wakefield Turntables]

If your going down the SME tonearm route only go for he 3009 if your a budget get the V if you can, additionally the denon 103 is a great cart with the V anything audiotechnica is too bright and shorty (I've been their). Of course others will recommend other tonearms but that's what I'd do if your doing the SME thing..

[The Grand Wazoo]

Where should you start?
I'd suggest that you spend several weeks with the deck as standard and with a relatively cheap cartridge mounted. Get to know the basic qualities of the device first and get to know them inside out - how can you possibly know what you are improving otherwise?

[Tarzan]

Where should you start?
I'd suggest that you spend several weeks with the deck as standard and with a relatively cheap cartridge mounted. Get to know the basic qualities of the device first and get to know them inside out - how can you possibly know what you are improving otherwise?


x2, get used it first, the stock Techie is very musical indeed.

[kininigin]

This maybe a stupid question,but do you actually own any vinyl?

I'd be a bit cautious about spending lots of money on a tt if you don't!!!

[Audio Al]

As other have already said

Use it in standard form first , you will be surprised how good it sounds

My advice would be to stear clear of the AT cart as I have a AT120e and it produces a hum , I have tried it on 2 1210 TTs with the same result, some sort of interference between the cart and the power supply , as the cart swings over the TT the hum starts on the outer edge of the platter and gets louder towards the middle of the TT

Also you need to decide if its going to be a Moving magnet or a moving coil cart , most popular will be a MM

Regarding vinyl , I obtain all mine form local car boot sales from 50p to £1 each , even cheaper if you buy job lots in bulk :)

[Stratmangler]

Regarding vinyl , I obtain all mine form local car boot sales from 50p to £1 each , even cheaper if you buy job lots in bulk :)

Last time I looked Lisbon was in Portugal (always look at the OP's location too ;)).
It's a long way to come to your local car boot sales, Al.

[Clive197]

Hi Jonathan

As already mentioned you are going to need to decide a budget. A couple of questions first.
1. Are you buying by via the internet or are there good dealers in Lisbon for you to visit?
2. Are you intending to buy each upgrade individually or do you want to pimp your Techie all in one go?
3. Are you handy or does DIY cause you issues?

It is a fact that on forums if you ask a question of 50 people you will get one way or the other 50 different opinions, as few of us will totally agree across all the options as we all have our personal tastes. Hence the questions, as it helps to narrow the options.

[Tiff_Needle]

This maybe a stupid question,but do you actually own any vinyl?

I'd be a bit cautious about spending lots of money on a tt if you don't!!!

The obvious answers, YES!

My vinyl collection is nowhere near as big as my digital collection (CD,SACD,DVD-A,BD, PCM @ 16/44,1 till 24/384, DSD64 & DSD128) but fortunately have quite a few nicelly kept LP records waiting patiently to be played on the 1210.

I've always intended to go through the analog route therefore from time to time whenever some record caught my attention I would buy it.

I honestly don't believe that my vinyl collection will ever be as big the digital collection (~2500+ albums) as I do not intend to substitute all my music with vinyl. And to be honest I'm a bit tired of buying repeatably the same albums only because a new format is available or a new remaster is available. Complete waste of money if you ask me...

The main driver behind this vinyl venture is to have a special selected set of music in analog from masters also made in the analog domain.

It makes no sense to me buying (And I've bought quite few to be honest) digitally mixed, mastered music in vinyl as some folks do. You simply end-up introducing another (if not several) stages of entropy on the chain. Just as listening to digital transfers of music recorded, mixed and mastered on analog domain is just another way of loosing something on the way (an exception could me made to some direct DSD transfers that are simply stunning)



As I've not had the courage yet to plunge into the supra-sumo of analog and be as close to the source as possible (talking about R2R), vinyl might be as close as you get without spending loads of cash on a format that is both dead (ok so a few of them out there are still recording on IPS but that doesn't mean its a commercially viable medium, at least for the common mortal that likes do listen to more than a few hundreds of albums), highly priced with limited offer.

But heck, if I could afford it just for the sheer pleasure of using something exotic that actually might sound superior to anything else on earth, I know where I would put my money. I would certainly go for a United Home Audio, Phase 11, R2R!! (http://www.unitedhomeproducts.com/)

But, as I have no luck on lottery tickets and beside the fact that I live in a place where who (really) runs the country is completly obsessed on slaughtering the working class with high taxes.... I see no way of having the luxury of going to deep, or shall I say deeper, into really high-end toys for grownups.

Having said that, and coming back to your question, YES indeed, I do have a "smallish" collection of LP records that I'm very proud of and wainting anxiously to drop the needle on them!


Yes, I do not reside in the UK but no worries... there is a lot of vinyl for sale in Portugal. Not as much as in the UK and other countries, and not as cheap, but no worries we manage quite well!

The good thing is that I love to travel and whenever I go to places like UK (specially London), Netherlands(specially Amsterdam) - been on both just recently (the who concert in Amsterdam will be a memory that I'll cherish till the end of my days) and will be going back to both next month !! Can't wait to see Steven Wilson and Peter Gabriel in London, eheh - I always fly back to Portugal with quite a heavier load :rolleyes:

Side Note: Oh by the way, Montreal is really a great place to buy record!!! Sweet... Just whish I could spend 4000€ each time I enter a record store that has really good stuff...


What I love about buying vinyl in certain places outside Portugal, is that you're able to get great recording, original pressings in mint conditions at good prices on the second hand market. There are also good offerings here in Lisbon or Porto but they're actually more expensive than the average price in certain cities, that is, price/shape wise.

Amsterdam as few stores but with really good quality second-hand records and the average price is nice. It should be kept that way for many many years to come...

I went a lot off-topic on my own thread here, but ok... Let's get back on track

So you've asked about budget!

To be honest, I have none!

I would say that it all depends on whether its justifiable or not. I'm aware that I'll have to spend quite a bit to get the 1210 on par with some other high-end TT but I also have no intention of spending 5k plus on a T/T... from there on I would prefer going for something more high-endish (badge-wise), like an SME.

For me this is a mid-term project so my scope is to have it complete within 1 & 1/2 to 2 years.

It looks to me that the component where I'll be spending most of the money will be on the tonearm.

I do love the SME V but does the 1210 (please, please don't shoot me) really cup up with an arm of this caliber?

It would be really nice if I could spend a few hours listening to a heavily modded 1210 with all the bells and wistles but I doubt anyone nearby as a 1210 modded let alone heavily modded.

So what to do?!

First of all I want to get the 1210 singing and for that I need a phono stage and a cartridge.

I do agree that I should first live with it and learn its ways on grooving the music (although I'm not a first timer on 1210's... Just never heard it on a system like mine).

As mentioned earlier, I'm completely aware that I'll be spending quite a few euros on the techie but want to be as rational as possible on it and avoid wasting money unnecessarily (troika eats up quite a big chunk of my earnings so, no fooling around is recommended).

So cartridge wise I wanted to go for something that would be on par with an arm that would be fitted somewhere in the future, such as an SME (309/V :mental: - Jelco 750).

For that I would really like to have your thoughts.

Between MM & MC, normally I more towards MC even on the budget segment (<1000€), so I would say that I would go for an MC. Aside from that, should I pull the trigger on the Cadence phono stage, I would need to stick no MC as the Cadende as no MM option,

My trouble is that it seems to me that normally MC coils under 1k have a light tendency to be over-shouty on the mid-range.

Whatever cartridge I go for now, will always be a compromise but taking into account that I will most certainly change the tonearm to something of higher caliber I would prefer buying something that would please me afterwards without the need of buying another Cart.

Qualities that I'm looking for, that in my opinion would be good taking into account my system's actual character.

Body;

Wieght;

Wood, wine, honey;

Stage;

Depth;

Velvet mids and highs (my speakers have ribbon tweeters and they are already so revealing);

I would say,a tad of color if you may...

My system is already very neutral as we speak... so adding a bit of color wound't hurt, specially for those nostalgic 60 & 70's recordings of prog.!

I'm very inclined towards the Denon DL-103R or BENZ-MICRO MC GOLD.

As I would be using them on the stock 1210 arm, what would you recommend for any of these to play its best on this arm?

I've read that, at least for the case of the DL103R, that I should get a Shumiko headshell and extra weight. Can any of you specify exactly what would be reccomended?



After having decided and fitted, both the cart. and phono stage, I was thinking on going for the Paul Hynes PSU or the Mike New bearing.


That is, putting apart new feet for the 1210 that might be bought anytime soon...

What are your opinions on using the Isonoe feet considering the fact that the 1210 is sited on a Spectral HE2002-BG-AL.


Tkx

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi Jonathan

As already mentioned you are going to need to decide a budget. A couple of questions first.
1. Are you buying by via the internet or are there good dealers in Lisbon for you to visit?
2. Are you intending to buy each upgrade individually or do you want to pimp your Techie all in one go?
3. Are you handy or does DIY cause you issues?

It is a fact that on forums if you ask a question of 50 people you will get one way or the other 50 different opinions, as few of us will totally agree across all the options as we all have our personal tastes. Hence the questions, as it helps to narrow the options.


Sorry, forgot to answer to your questions.

1. Are you buying by via the internet or are there good dealers in Lisbon for you to visit?

Most of the gear might be available here, and there are some really fabulous, if not some of the best in Europe, hifi shops in Portugal and some of them specialized specifically on turntables. But to be honest, as I might get better pricing buying most of the parts outside Portugal, I believe that most of the upgrades will be bought outside via internet just as I did with 99% of my system. The only parts that I actually bought in Portugal were, the SCD-1 and some power cables

2. Are you intending to buy each upgrade individually or do you want to pimp your Techie all in one go?

As mentioned, I see this as a 2 year project, in a step by step fashion. The only reason behind it really is not spending all of it at once and live each upgrade at a time knowing exactly what is happening on each step. Otherwise I would go for a one shot only

3. Are you handy or does DIY cause you issues?

Not exactly. I know my way around tools and electronic/electrical-wise I'm comfortable. I'm an Electrical Engineer and have played around electronics for some years. Thhe downside of the DIY route for me is, for one having little time available for these sort of duties, two being a bit lazy and whenever I have spare time I like to spend it laying on the couch listening to music reading stuff on my iPad

[Clive197]

Jonathan, thank you for your detailed reply.

The arm seems from your posts to be one of the first buys. I spent a couple of months researching arms and finally coming to Origin Live Silver at £689 + £58 for an arm board. One of the reviews I read for this arm, was in the opinion of the writer sounding nicer than the SME V. I confess that I have not heard that SME so can add little to that. I am very pleased with the results I get with the Silver. Origin Live have been very helpful and one of there range would I suspect give you what you are looking for.
Next comes the mat. Funk's Achromat seems to be the favoured item for most people who don't want to spend a fortune.
The Isonoe's with boots are my favoured feet, love the sound they gave when I added them.
The Mike New bearing gets a lot of good comment on this forum but at £445 seems expensive to me for an item that seems to only give subtle gains IMHO.
For me power supplies also as yet leave me unconvinced but I'm still open on this. I'm going to a HiFi show tomorrow and plan to look into this for my Techie, watch this space.
Hope this has been helpful and I'm sure other people will also offer advice.

[Tarzan]

Jonathan, if you do not have a budget,the Inspire Monarch/SME V/with a cart of your choice, it looks good, sounds amazing, and is all you will ever need.


:)

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Mike New bearing gets a lot of good comment on this forum but at £445 seems expensive to me for an item that seems to only give subtle gains IMHO.
.

Have you tried one? I find your comment very hard to believe.

[Marco]

Nope - I can say with some certainty that the sonic effect of the Mike New bearing is NOT subtle (providing that the rest of the turntable has been optimised to take full advantage of it) :)

In my experience, there are three fundamental items, which transform the SL-1200/1210 into a genuine high-end turntable, capable of competing with the best (as opposed to merely a very good one):

1) Mike New bearing.
2) Paul Hynes SR7 PSU (with internal regulator mods).
3) Funk Firm platter.

Without those three items (or others of comparable quality) the Technics will sound fab (if judiciously modified in other areas), but escape true greatness. However, it all depends on what your goals are in the first place!

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Althoug I have no experience with the MN bearing, I don't have a hard time believing that it actually does big difference.

My first upgrade might be the tone arm as for a stock unit it seems to me as the weakest point of the 1210 stock.

These Origin Live tone arms seem promising...

I wouldn't say jumping to a conquer but maybe an illustration would be reasonable.

Has anyone have any experience with these tone arms and the 1210?

Would a OL illustration and a Denon DL-103R be a nice choice?

I imagine most of you would recommend that I first strip off the 1210 PSU and plug it outside, but before going into that I'd say it would only be logical doing that after buying a good external PSU, wouldn't you agree?

[Tarzan]

The obvious answers, YES!

My vinyl collection is nowhere near as big as my digital collection (CD,SACD,DVD-A,BD, PCM @ 16/44,1 till 24/384, DSD64 & DSD128) but fortunately have quite a few nicelly kept LP records waiting patiently to be played on the 1210.

I've always intended to go through the analog route therefore from time to time whenever some record caught my attention I would buy it.

I honestly don't believe that my vinyl collection will ever be as big the digital collection (~2500+ albums) as I do not intend to substitute all my music with vinyl. And to be honest I'm a bit tired of buying repeatably the same albums only because a new format is available or a new remaster is available. Complete waste of money if you ask me...

The main driver behind this vinyl venture is to have a special selected set of music in analog from masters also made in the analog domain.

It makes no sense to me buying (And I've bought quite few to be honest) digitally mixed, mastered music in vinyl as some folks do. You simply end-up introducing another (if not several) stages of entropy on the chain. Just as listening to digital transfers of music recorded, mixed and mastered on analog domain is just another way of loosing something on the way (an exception could me made to some direct DSD transfers that are simply stunning)



As I've not had the courage yet to plunge into the supra-sumo of analog and be as close to the source as possible (talking about R2R), vinyl might be as close as you get without spending loads of cash on a format that is both dead (ok so a few of them out there are still recording on IPS but that doesn't mean its a commercially viable medium, at least for the common mortal that likes do listen to more than a few hundreds of albums), highly priced with limited offer.

But heck, if I could afford it just for the sheer pleasure of using something exotic that actually might sound superior to anything else on earth, I know where I would put my money. I would certainly go for a United Home Audio, Phase 11, R2R!! (http://www.unitedhomeproducts.com/)

But, as I have no luck on lottery tickets and beside the fact that I live in a place where who (really) runs the country is completly obsessed on slaughtering the working class with high taxes.... I see no way of having the luxury of going to deep, or shall I say deeper, into really high-end toys for grownups.

Having said that, and coming back to your question, YES indeed, I do have a "smallish" collection of LP records that I'm very proud of and wainting anxiously to drop the needle on them!


Yes, I do not reside in the UK but no worries... there is a lot of vinyl for sale in Portugal. Not as much as in the UK and other countries, and not as cheap, but no worries we manage quite well!

The good thing is that I love to travel and whenever I go to places like UK (specially London), Netherlands(specially Amsterdam) - been on both just recently (the who concert in Amsterdam will be a memory that I'll cherish till the end of my days) and will be going back to both next month !! Can't wait to see Steven Wilson and Peter Gabriel in London, eheh - I always fly back to Portugal with quite a heavier load :rolleyes:

Side Note: Oh by the way, Montreal is really a great place to buy record!!! Sweet... Just whish I could spend 4000€ each time I enter a record store that has really good stuff...


What I love about buying vinyl in certain places outside Portugal, is that you're able to get great recording, original pressings in mint conditions at good prices on the second hand market. There are also good offerings here in Lisbon or Porto but they're actually more expensive than the average price in certain cities, that is, price/shape wise.

Amsterdam as few stores but with really good quality second-hand records and the average price is nice. It should be kept that way for many many years to come...

I went a lot off-topic on my own thread here, but ok... Let's get back on track

So you've asked about budget!

To be honest, I have none!

I would say that it all depends on whether its justifiable or not. I'm aware that I'll have to spend quite a bit to get the 1210 on par with some other high-end TT but I also have no intention of spending 5k plus on a T/T... from there on I would prefer going for something more high-endish (badge-wise), like an SME.

For me this is a mid-term project so my scope is to have it complete within 1 & 1/2 to 2 years.

It looks to me that the component where I'll be spending most of the money will be on the tonearm.

I do love the SME V but does the 1210 (please, please don't shoot me) really cup up with an arm of this caliber?

It would be really nice if I could spend a few hours listening to a heavily modded 1210 with all the bells and wistles but I doubt anyone nearby as a 1210 modded let alone heavily modded.

So what to do?!

First of all I want to get the 1210 singing and for that I need a phono stage and a cartridge.

I do agree that I should first live with it and learn its ways on grooving the music (although I'm not a first timer on 1210's... Just never heard it on a system like mine).

As mentioned earlier, I'm completely aware that I'll be spending quite a few euros on the techie but want to be as rational as possible on it and avoid wasting money unnecessarily (troika eats up quite a big chunk of my earnings so, no fooling around is recommended).

So cartridge wise I wanted to go for something that would be on par with an arm that would be fitted somewhere in the future, such as an SME (309/V :mental: - Jelco 750).

For that I would really like to have your thoughts.

Between MM & MC, normally I more towards MC even on the budget segment (<1000€), so I would say that I would go for an MC. Aside from that, should I pull the trigger on the Cadence phono stage, I would need to stick no MC as the Cadende as no MM option,

My trouble is that it seems to me that normally MC coils under 1k have a light tendency to be over-shouty on the mid-range.

Whatever cartridge I go for now, will always be a compromise but taking into account that I will most certainly change the tonearm to something of higher caliber I would prefer buying something that would please me afterwards without the need of buying another Cart.

Qualities that I'm looking for, that in my opinion would be good taking into account my system's actual character.

Body;

Wieght;

Wood, wine, honey;

Stage;

Depth;

Velvet mids and highs (my speakers have ribbon tweeters and they are already so revealing);

I would say,a tad of color if you may...

My system is already very neutral as we speak... so adding a bit of color wound't hurt, specially for those nostalgic 60 & 70's recordings of prog.!

I'm very inclined towards the Denon DL-103R or BENZ-MICRO MC GOLD.

As I would be using them on the stock 1210 arm, what would you recommend for any of these to play its best on this arm?

I've read that, at least for the case of the DL103R, that I should get a Shumiko headshell and extra weight. Can any of you specify exactly what would be reccomended?



After having decided and fitted, both the cart. and phono stage, I was thinking on going for the Paul Hynes PSU or the Mike New bearing.


That is, putting apart new feet for the 1210 that might be bought anytime soon...

What are your opinions on using the Isonoe feet considering the fact that the 1210 is sited on a Spectral HE2002-BG-AL.


Tkx


Jonathan, l can tell you the SME V works well on the Techie, giving a feel of real authority and control with a very solid bass foundation( l know as l stuck my SME V on my Techie)and it looks super cool as well, and effect from going from standard arm to the SME was not subtle! Which brings us to the MN Bearing as an option which if you read the AOS forum is not subtle either.

[Wakefield Turntables]

You are going to need to some deep pockets if you want to get the best out of your 1210. My top tips would be

1. MN bearing
2. Paul Hynes PSU + Internal regs
3. MN platter
4. Tonearm

[RobbieGong]

Spot on Andrew, If one really wants to 'get there' without too much compromise ;)

[Clive197]

Have you tried one? I find your comment very hard to believe.

Andrew, I did look at the MN Bearing today by coincidence. So as I understand your comment, you think the bearing will make a huge difference. So if I purchase said item and don't find the improvement to be be large, will you agree to buy it from me for what I paid for it?
Clive

[Stratmangler]

I have been running a MNB in my deck since the MCRU weekend, and it is IMO a serious improvement over the stock bearing.
It brings greater bass solidity and improved inner detailing to the party.
I haven't noticed any timing issues, despite the nonsense posted in some places on the interweb about drag issues.

I had improved the performance of my deck's original bearing by placing an O ring in the bearing well on the chassis, and damping the bearing brought gains in overall resolution.
The MNB brought further improvements again.

Why not give David at MCRU a call about the MNB?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andrew, I did look at the MN Bearing today by coincidence. So as I understand your comment, you think the bearing will make a huge difference. So if I purchase said item and don't find the improvement to be be large, will you agree to buy it from me for what I paid for it?
Clive

Clive, why the hell would I want two MN bearings?

[Clive197]

Clive, why the hell would I want two MN bearings?

AhHa, so you are not confident I would find a huge improvement. So I will stick with my original thought, unless proved otherwise.
I totally understand that we all have different perceptions, so may I take this opportunity to say that we agree to disagree.

[Tarzan]

I have been running a MNB in my deck since the MCRU weekend, and it is IMO a serious improvement over the stock bearing.
It brings greater bass solidity and improved inner detailing to the party.
I haven't noticed any timing issues, despite the nonsense posted in some places on the interweb about drag issues.

I had improved the performance of my deck's original bearing by placing an O ring in the bearing well on the chassis, and damping the bearing brought gains in overall resolution.
The MNB brought further improvements again.

Why not give David at MCRU a call about the MNB?


Chris do you have any images of your tweak, as l love playing with my bits;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

AhHa, so you are not confident I would find a huge improvement. So I will stick with my original thought, unless proved otherwise.
I totally understand that we all have different perceptions, so may I take this opportunity to say that we agree to disagree.

I've had one for two years now so I don't think I have a confidence deficit.

[Marco]

I totally understand that we all have different perceptions, so may I take this opportunity to say that we agree to disagree.

With respect, Clive, you cannot have a true perception of anything in audio unless you've used it and thus gained some relevant experience. In your instance, given that's not the case with the MN bearing, you have nothing tangible from which to agree or disagree with Andrew :)

Anyone can come onto a forum and voice their opinion about something, however I'm sure you'll agree that the only opinions which carry any weight, are those formed from practical experience, and therefore have genuine credibility.

Marco.

[Stratmangler]

Chris do you have any images of your tweak, as l love playing with my bits;)

No photos.
Just take out your bearing, put an O ring in the bottom of the well, reassemble deck.
The O ring should contact the baseplate of the bearing and the bottom of the bearing well too :)

[MCRU]

AhHa, so you are not confident I would find a huge improvement. So I will stick with my original thought, unless proved otherwise.
I totally understand that we all have different perceptions, so may I take this opportunity to say that we agree to disagree.


Hello, got back from the show just before midnight, up at 7 a.m to un-load the van, it's 10.45 now not even opened it!

Clive it was nice to meet you, hope it's ok for me to say that why would you assume the bearing would not improve your techie and why would you need to sell it to anyone if it doesn't?

You have 30 days to decide then if no float your boat full refund given, fair I would say?

The show offer on the bearing will stand for 1 week between us both if you decide to take the plunge.

Hope that is ok.

I will post some show thoughts later, good though!

[Clive197]

With respect, Clive, you cannot have a true perception of anything in audio unless you've used it and thus gained some relevant experience. In your instance, given that's not the case with the MN bearing, you have nothing tangible from which to agree or disagree with Andrew :)

Anyone can come onto a forum and voice their opinion about something, however I'm sure you'll agree that the only opinions which carry any weight, are those formed from practical experience, and therefore have genuine credibility.

Marco.

Marco, I understand were you are coming from. I based my comment not on the MN BEARING and in that I doff my hat. I in fact based it on the change of bearing made to a close friends experiences with a LP12. Neither of us could tell a huge difference when he upgraded the part and in fact in some ways preferred the original.

[Clive197]

Hello, got back from the show just before midnight, up at 7 a.m to un-load the van, it's 10.45 now not even opened it!

Clive it was nice to meet you, hope it's ok for me to say that why would you assume the bearing would not improve your techie and why would you need to sell it to anyone if it doesn't?

You have 30 days to decide then if no float your boat full refund given, fair I would say?

The show offer on the bearing will stand for 1 week between us both if you decide to take the plunge.

Hope that is ok.

I will post some show thoughts later, good though!

David it was very nice to meet you yesterday. It is always good to put a face to a name. As a reply please see above reply to Marco. Further I would add that my comment re me asking REXTON to buy the item if I did not like it was said with tongue firmly in cheek and if it caused offence I humbly apologise.

As an addendum, I would like to say that having seen and looked at your sample on the stand I can say that the engineering differences are clearly off the scale , the MN Bearing being in a different class to the stock item. The only very minor comment I will make is the finish of the only bit visible once fitted, the top spindle is chromed on the stock piece and of a dull grey metal on the MN. This is probably of no importance to the vast majority of people but on purely aesthetic grounds not to my taste.

As my memory does not serve me well, what was the show discount?

[Marco]

Marco, I understand were you are coming from. I based my comment not on the MN BEARING and in that I doff my hat. I in fact based it on the change of bearing made to a close friends experiences with a LP12. Neither of us could tell a huge difference when he upgraded the part and in fact in some ways preferred the original.

Hi Clive,

No worries, matey, but you see that's where you're making the mistake.

All of the bearings for any Linn turntable have been manufactured to the highest engineering standard, quite simply because they were built in the first place by a proper engineering company in Britain, unlike the highly mass-produced 'built to a price' (and compromised accordingly) item on a Technics SL-1200/1210, which is precisely why the sonic improvements gained by upgrading it to an MN one are rather different than those achieved by upgrading an LP12 with one already high-quality Linn bearing to another...

However, having been to the show now and witnessed a Mike New bearing in the flesh, you can now see it is a different animal entirely from the stock item, and trust me, sounds it too!! ;)

Marco.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Clive,

No offence taken. The MN bearing is but one upgrade, I would say that power regulation offers a significant kick up the jacksy, but I think the MN bearing will make your deck sing.

A

[MikeMusic]

The MN bearing is but one upgrade, I would say that power regulation offers a significant kick up the jacksy, but I think the MN bearing will make your deck sing.



I've got the bearing, not the power regs. I reckon my deck sounds very good indeed.
Would it sound that much gooder ?

[Marco]

What, with the PH regs installed, Mike? Most defing-tootely! Which PSU are you using? :)

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

What, with the PH regs installed, Mike? Most defing-tootely! Which PSU are you using? :)

Marco.

MCRU Linear outboard
The whole system sounds pretty damned good to me, admittedly after some huge upward steps in SQ

<Looks at dwindling pile of money.......>

[Spectral Morn]

:popcorn:

[Stratmangler]

MCRU Linear outboard
The whole system sounds pretty damned good to me, admittedly after some huge upward steps in SQ

<Looks at dwindling pile of money.......>

Nick knows what he's doing with PSUs too, and they're excellent.

[Marco]

Ah, in that case, Mike, I wouldn't worry about it.

The PSU Nick Gorham designed for MCRU has different design principles from Paul's stuff and so a) I doubt that the regs would compatible and b) whether you'd prefer the sound of changing to a Paul Hynes PSU, simply to incorporate the regs. I haven't compared one with the other yet to form any opinions. I do know, though, that whatever Nick has built will have been very well designed to do a specific job.

However, you could send Nick (lurcher) here a PM and ask him if his PSU design could facilitate individually regulating different parts of the T/T's circuitry, and indeed whether he sees any mileage in doing that - or more specifically, whether the effect of that would outweigh what he considers are the main priorities for optimising the Technics :)

Marco.

[MCRU]

Nick knows what he's doing with PSUs too, and they're excellent.

and Dac's judging by this months review in hifi choice!:)

[MikeMusic]

Nick knows what he's doing with PSUs too, and they're excellent.

Thought it was at least fairly well thought of !
Thanks

[MikeMusic]

Ah, in that case, Mike, I wouldn't worry about it.

The PSU Nick Gorham designed for MCRU has different design principles from Paul's stuff and so a) I doubt that the regs would compatible and b) whether you'd prefer the sound of changing to a Paul Hynes PSU, simply to incorporate the regs. I haven't compared one with the other yet to form any opinions. I do know, though, that whatever Nick has built will have been very well designed to do a specific job.

However, you could send Nick (lurcher) here a PM and ask him if his PSU design could facilitate individually regulating different parts of the T/T's circuitry, and indeed whether he sees any mileage in doing that - or more specifically, whether the effect of that would outweigh what he considers are the main priorities for optimising the Technics :)

Marco.
Thanks Marco. I'll talk to him
Might be able to compare with Martin's slightly different spec to hear if there is massive difference.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I've got the bearing, not the power regs. I reckon my deck sounds very good indeed.
Would it sound that much gooder ?

YES

[MCRU]

dude
how can you state that when you have no idea what the psu mike is currently using does to the techy, you have not heard nick's techy psu or mike's system? :)

the regs may work for you and the few others who have done it but that was with another brand of psu

it may not be needed with other designs of psu

[Wakefield Turntables]

dude
how can you state that when you have no idea what the psu mike is currently using does to the techy, you have not heard nick's techy psu or mike's system? :)

the regs may work for you and the few others who have done it but that was with another brand of psu

it may not be needed with other designs of psu

Very observant, we should call you Sherlock. Why not develop your own internal and then you can answer your own question. :goodluck:

[MCRU]

Very observant, we should call you Sherlock. Why not develop your own internal and then you can answer your own question. :goodluck:

don't need it as my techie is as good as it gets :) imo of course, I have far more interesting things to do

[Audio Al]

Not again PLEASE :peace:

[MCRU]

Not again PLEASE :peace:

chill winston

[Wakefield Turntables]

don't need it as my techie is as good as it gets :) imo of course, I have far more interesting things to do

Glad to hear it, why comment on my posts then?


Not again PLEASE :peace:

Al, it's banter.


chill winston

+1

[Tiff_Needle]

Five pages of posts and still no recommendation on cartridge????

SOS 1210 101... Please!

I think I'm going to pull the trigger on a Denon DL-103R with the stock arm and had a sumiko head shell to it an a weight (of how much and bought from where?).

Thereafter I'll start my actual upgrade path...

The 103r should be ok for a future SME or Origin live tonearm, right?

[Stratmangler]

An Ortofon 2m Red is a very capable performer.
Doesn't cost a wedge either.

[Clive197]

Five pages of posts and still no recommendation on cartridge????

SOS 1210 101... Please!

I think I'm going to pull the trigger on a Denon DL-103R with the stock arm and had a sumiko head shell to it an a weight (of how much and bought from where?).

Thereafter I'll start my actual upgrade path...

The 103r should be ok for a future SME or Origin live tonearm, right?

I think you could do better than the Denon. Ortofon Cadenza range did it for me especially if you are thinking about the better OL arms.

[Tiff_Needle]

An Ortofon 2m Red is a very capable performer.
Doesn't cost a wedge either.

Could be an option, but I have the general impression that ortofons sound a tad "digital" in terms of a bit of hardness on the top frequencies...

Very clean, some detail but a tad less color. It seems a great match for people who already have woody, colored, romantic system.

But that is not my case.

My system is currently towards the neutral side and was looking something of a nostalgic analog tube feel to it with my turntable as source.

[Tiff_Needle]

I think you could do better than the Denon. Ortofon Cadenza range did it for me especially if you are thinking about the better OL arms.

Never heard the cadenza...

What can you say about its character?

[The Grand Wazoo]

...... was looking something of a nostalgic analog tube feel to it with my turntable as source.

And this is why you chose the Technics?

[Stratmangler]

Could be an option, but I have the general impression that ortofons sound a tad "digital" in terms of a bit of hardness on the top frequencies...

Very clean, some detail but a tad less color. It seems a great match for people who already have woody, colored, romantic system.

But that is not my case.

My system is currently towards the neutral side and was looking something of a nostalgic analog tube feel to it with my turntable as source.

I've only heard one the once, and the system was not woody, coloured and romantic.
It was bettered by an Ortofon Cadenza Blue, but then the Cadenza Blue cost a great deal more than the 2m Red.

[Tiff_Needle]

And this is why you chose the Technics?

Not at all!

I chose technics for its visceral body feeling pace, precise timing, vividly sound... Well DD sound simply correct!

The stock 1210 as a lot of limitations, that seem to be overcome if upgraded accordingly, but as points in its favour that many belt driven turntables fall short.

Tempo, rhythm, living joy to listen seem to me to be the main adjectives that better describe my opinion of these TT.

[Clive197]

I would never consider the 2M Black to have a digital top end which is the model in the 2M range I would recommend.

There are a couple of us that use the Cadenza. I have the Bronze and I believe REXTON has a Black. The Bronze has great imaging and is considered slightly warmer than the Black which is extremely neutral and dynamic. Both have a traditional MC sound.

[Tiff_Needle]

I would never consider the 2M Black to have a digital top end which is the model in the 2M range I would recommend.

There are a couple of us that use the Cadenza. I have the Bronze and I believe REXTON has a Black. The Bronze has great imaging and is considered slightly warmer than the Black which is extremely neutral and dynamic. Both have a traditional MC sound.

I've had experience only with 2M Red and Blue and although they sounded good on those systems, I believe they might not be the best fit for mine.

Both my Rowland's and PL300's are already so revealing, specially from mid-to-high band. Ribbon tweeters can be marvelous if coupled well, but on sources with some emphasis or prominence to the higher frequencies can sound sterile on this system.

The other factor that I would also like to take into account is the fact that, although the both the PL300's and the Rowland 6's can really go to visceral infra-sub-quacking frequencies, the truth is that this setup lacks a tad (being peaky here, but who isn't )of body if you may or.... Should I say consistent room filling mid-bass... This might actually be a problem on the sources that I'm currently using... I've heard the PL300's coupled with several Pass labs and esoteric electronics and never felt this organic body was missing, nor I ever felt it with the Rowland's with speakers, even with some that aren't actually known to be full bodied such as some avalons, nor. With top of the line B&W or Martin Logans...

I'm also quite aware that the fact of having lived for 15+ years with a tube gear and a pair of too bodied, not intirelly clean, bass end have affect the way I judge things...

I still haven't figured out if this is a synergy problem (not likely) or a problem with my current sources. The SCD-1 although is a great piece audio is know to be, once more without proper modding, a tad over clinical and the temporary DAC, well it's not close in a mile to the level of the remaining rig.

I've heard this setup once with a Lyngdorf and although it wasn't once more at the same level of the remaining system, it did compensate a bit "the missing part".

Some friends of mine don't concur entirely with my opinion and say that the living room isn't quite exactly an optimal room for the system (quite true) others say I'm nuts, and others... Well think the same thing but don't say it with all the words I use.

I know that I have a certain tendency of liking system a tad over-romantic.... But what can I say, I love music and not systems nor measurements.

To much linearity can be fatiguing especially if taken into account that 80% of published music is badly recorded.

On great recordings, such as some Reference Recordings on SACD, most channel classics SACDs, and other alike this system as a jaw dropping sound! Don't get me wrong, this gear can sing. But we do have to live with non-audiophile recordings (most high-end records are, for me, most of the time printed with boring music), some with dubious techniques of recording or mastering but... Great music. And I want to be able to live with it, even at the cost of lesser sound quality.

It hurts me when certain new, contemporary recordings made on the 21st century, are so poorly recorded. Come on you Indie guys, please learn how to record your music. On some recordings I can hear noises that on most systems are non-existing.

Anyway, I'm looking for a more forgiving source without to much compromise, that knows how to put out the correct tempo. 1210, you have to be able to deliver me this!!!!

Coming back to cartridge topic, I feel a tad more inclined towards an MC cart. and should I go throught with the purchase of the Cadence phono stage, well no MM will fit it... So this narrows down quite a bit my options for a ~ <?500€/$/£ cart, right?

The Benz Micro MC gold as seduced me several times on other occasions, but they were used on completely different setups from mine... I fear that it could sound to vivid on the midrange with my system.

Other options?



Off-Topic side note: will be trying in a few months two new digital sources (demoing possible future digital sources for my system) and from what I've heard on hifi shows, hifi shops, demo rooms ... I believe that some digital sources might do the trick for me. (For audition: Meitner Audio MA-1, Luxmann DA-06, Auralic Vega - would love to try the DAC2X from EMM-LABS but I'm running away from it, as I fear I might feel tempted to spend hard earned money on a stupidely expensive toy)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Five pages of posts and still no recommendation on cartridge????

SOS 1210 101... Please!

I think I'm going to pull the trigger on a Denon DL-103R with the stock arm and had a sumiko head shell to it an a weight (of how much and bought from where?).

Thereafter I'll start my actual upgrade path...

The 103r should be ok for a future SME or Origin live tonearm, right?

Five pages of posts and still no idea of your budget. You've had carts suggested to your in value from a few hundred quid upto and beyound a couple of grand. Give us a clue and we may be more helpful.:rolleyes:

[Tiff_Needle]

Five pages of posts and still no idea of your budget. You've had carts suggested to your in value from a few hundred quid upto and beyound a couple of grand. Give us a clue and we may be more helpful.:rolleyes:
Postes on my last post ;)

"Coming back to cartridge topic, I feel a tad more inclined towards an MC cart. and should I go throught with the purchase of the Cadence phono stage, well no MM will fit it... So this narrows down quite a bit my options for a ~ <?500€/$/£ cart, right?"

[Clive197]

I know that I have a certain tendency of liking system a tad over-romantic.... But what can I say, I love music and not systems nor measurements.


A perfect description for the Cadenza Bronze at about €1700 IMHO. :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Denon 103r then?

[Marco]

Hi Jonathan,

Given the type of sound you're trying to achieve I'd definitely avoid using the vast majority of modern cartridges, and buy a Denon 103R, or even better a 103Pro (best available from here: http://www.eifl.co.jp/index/export/export2.htm ), and use it with one of Denon's own (now discontinued) 'high-end' SUTs, which can be bought on ebay, such as this (if you can afford it): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-AU-1000-MC-Step-Up-Transformer-Made-in-Japan-Best-Buy-/281106925741?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item41734748ad or this, if you can't: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-AU-300LC-MC-Step-Up-Transformer-Made-in-Japan-Best-Buy-/281173452872?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item41773e6848 and feed it into the MM input of your preamp/phono stage.

Or, if you fancy a 'leftfield' choice, one of these chaps, which works extremely well with DL-103s, especially the Pro version (as they're both made by the same company): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Highphonic-HP-T6S-MC-Step-Up-Transformer-/190787876981?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item2c6bd7f875

Incidentally, the Highphonic unit (shown above) is also a rival for the popular A23 SUT, which is another option for you, for use with the DL-103R.

Forgive me, as I haven't had time to read through all of the thread properly, but if you're also looking for advice on which tonearm to use, new I'd go for either a Jelco SA-750, or if your budget allows, the Ortofon TA-110, shown here: http://www.ortofon.com/products/tonearms/ta-110

The latter, although similar in looks to the Jelco (and indeed is built by them) now offers a number of upgrades on the SA-750, which really makes it sing with low-compliance MC cartridges - and works fabulously well with the DL-103 and its variants. Second-hand, there are numerous options available on ebay for classic Japanese (detachable headshell-type) tonearms, which match the 103 very well. Other than the Jelco or Ortofon (detailed above), it's those types of tonearms you need in order to make the Denon 'sing'!

I'd also advise you to obtain one of the many excellent tonearm leads, designed by Jannis Tome, as discussed at length here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?17071-Could-this-be-a-giant-killing-tonearm-cable All of the YT cables major on 'liquidity' and 'musical flow', as well as being very natural sounding and detailed, which are all traits of the 'valve sound' you're after.

Also obtain a good record weight (such as those from Bruil, as shown here: http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html), as IME, these help to ameliorate the tendency of the Technics to sound somewhat soulless and 'mechanical', especially when the stock platter, bearing and tonearm are being used.

Lastly, if you haven't already done so, invest in a high-quality tube MM phono stage (look at those from the likes of Croft), as IME, the best ones make listening to music on vinyl a truly beguiling and emotionally involving experience, and in a way which no solid-state active MC phono stage I've heard can emulate, despite their undoubted talents elsewhere.

Hope this helps! :cool:

Marco.

[Clive197]

I've owned two Denon103's. 1 came with the LP12 and the other with a Ittok LVIII I bought to upgrade from a Ittok LVII. I listened to both and concluded that they were not to my taste. They must be popular as both fetched good money on e-bay.

[Marco]

The 103 is rather fussy with what you partner it with, Clive. I'm certainly not surprised you didn't like it in the context of an LP12/Ittok, as it's a total mismatch! :eek:

Marco.

[Clive197]

The 103 is rather fussy with what you partner it with, Clive. I'm certainly not surprised you didn't like it in the context of an LP12/Ittok, as it's a total mismatch! :eek:

Marco.

I will admit that the 103's were not my choice as they both came as a sort of bonus on the sale. Interesting that 2 separate owners chose the cartridge to go into the Linn product.
This does start a interesting can of worms. What cartridges go with what arms. The OP had stated rather emphatically that he wants a MC as that is the only input on his phono stage and that he seems to like the idea of purchasing a Origin Live arm which I know works very well with the Ortofons. Working on your comment about the Denon in Linn arms, do you have experience of Denon in an OL arm? It seems to me that when a question is asked re cartridges the answer would then have to be based on the OP's arm, and very few of us have detailed knowledge of the variable combination of arm and cartridges. I for one have a limited knowledge having been in the trade. So am able to offer experience for a number of TT manufacturers but only a very small number of cartridge makers (Shure, Ortofon, Grado and Goldring).

[Marco]

Well, Clive, you're absolutely right.

Matching (especially MC cartridges) with the right tonearm, in terms of mass and compliance issues, not to mention a whole host of other considerations, is absolutely crucial in order to obtain a top-notch sound. Aside from that, you also have to consider optimally matching an MC cartridge, electrically to the partnering phono stage, in terms of loading and gain etc, etc...

Quite simply, genuinely top-notch vinyl replay is not something one can ever achieve without having amassed a considerable amount of experience. Regarding your question about the OL arm and the DL-103. It's not a partnership I've ever tried, but it I guess it could be made to work.

The thing about the DL-103 is that it harks from an era (the late 50s and early to mid 60s) when the fashion for tonearms and cartridges was very different from what it is now, i.e. high-mass arms and low-compliance cartridges, tracking at VTFs of 3g (and above) were the norm then (also used in conjunction with huge idler or direct-drive broadcast turntables), as opposed to what's mostly adopted today in hi-fi (low-ish mass arms and medium-compliance cartridges, mostly tracking at VTFs of 2g or less, in conjunction with low to medium-mass belt-drive T/Ts).

Therefore, fitting a DL-103 onto most currently produced tonearms (in a modern hi-fi context) is rather like attempting to fit a round peg into a square whole: they simply don't 'marry' together properly. That's why one needs to try and replicate as far as possible the, let's call it, 'operating environment' that the DL-103 was originally designed to inhabit, and thus where it performs at its best.

In that respect, one must consider a minimum headshell mass of 17g, on a tonearm with an (armtube) mass of at least 10g, excluding the headshell, in order to optimise the performance of a DL-103, and it should also preferably be run through a matching MC step-up transformer, rather than run directly into the MC input of a phono stage or preamp, and preferably used in conjunction with a 'classic' idler-driven or direct-drive turntable. If only some, or none, of those recommendations are adhered to then, quite simply, you will not hear the DL-103 at its best :)

Marco.

[Clive197]

Now this is getting interesting. In the late sixties, early seventies when I got serious about HiFi the object rightly or wrongly was to get tracking weights below the magic 1grm. Perceived way of doing this was with a Shure V15MkIII and a SME 3009MkII. We then became a little more enlightened realising that these low tracking weights were doing more damage to our vinyl and the fashion changed to medium/high mass arms and low compliance cartridges and this was were the Denon made its name as a MC with a realistic price tag. Most MC's at the time were for the masses hideously expensive.
I hope we have not gone to far off topic but I think the points raised are valid to the OP.

[kininigin]

The obvious answers, YES!

My vinyl collection is nowhere near as big as my digital collection (CD,SACD,DVD-A,BD, PCM @ 16/44,1 till 24/384, DSD64 & DSD128) but fortunately have quite a few nicelly kept LP records waiting patiently to be played on the 1210.

I've always intended to go through the analog route therefore from time to time whenever some record caught my attention I would buy it.



Not an obvious Yes to me Jonothan,considering you said this is your first TT!! There wouldn't be too many who buy records,without the means to play them ;)

Anyway,glad you can get straight to it with what you do have :)

[Andrei]

Jonathan
I am also a new Technics 1210 owner. I have done a few basic mods. I have the Denon DL110 cartridge and I am very happy with it. It is a high output MC design and runs into a MM phono stage. I am rather new to vinyl but it compares well with my Benz Ace cartridge on a different turntable. The Denon costs about a quarter of the Benz Ace. While the Benz Ace (a low output MC) has precision, I have to say I like them equally - well to be pedantic I in overall terms I like the output from both systems equally.

As an aside lads, Mats: Origin Live Upgrade mat or Funk Achromat? I have both and the Origin Live is superior but (1) I don't have a Puck to hold the slippery Achromat in place and (2) at 5 mm thick I am having difficulty in getting the VTA correct. Any thoughts?

(PS happy to start a new thread, but have not done so as this may become relevant to the OP).

[twotone]

Jonathan
I am also a new Technics 1210 owner. I have done a few basic mods. I have the Denon DL110 cartridge and I am very happy with it. It is a high output MC design and runs into a MM phono stage. I am rather new to vinyl but it compares well with my Benz Ace cartridge on a different turntable. The Denon costs about a quarter of the Benz Ace. While the Benz Ace (a low output MC) has precision, I have to say I like them equally - well to be pedantic I in overall terms I like the output from both systems equally.

As an aside lads, Mats: Origin Live Upgrade mat or Funk Achromat? I have both and the Origin Live is superior but (1) I don't have a Puck to hold the slippery Achromat in place and (2) at 5 mm thick I am having difficulty in getting the VTA correct. Any thoughts?

(PS happy to start a new thread, but have not done so as this may become relevant to the OP).


Andrei you get a Technics version of the Achromat and it comes with a load of double sided sticky tape, mines doesn't move it did move without the tape however there is a mod where you use vaseline instead of the sticky tape but...:mental:

[Andrew B]

I will admit that the 103's were not my choice as they both came as a sort of bonus on the sale. Interesting that 2 separate owners chose the cartridge to go into the Linn product.
This does start a interesting can of worms. What cartridges go with what arms. The OP had stated rather emphatically that he wants a MC as that is the only input on his phono stage and that he seems to like the idea of purchasing a Origin Live arm which I know works very well with the Ortofons. Working on your comment about the Denon in Linn arms, do you have experience of Denon in an OL arm? It seems to me that when a question is asked re cartridges the answer would then have to be based on the OP's arm, and very few of us have detailed knowledge of the variable combination of arm and cartridges. I for one have a limited knowledge having been in the trade. So am able to offer experience for a number of TT manufacturers but only a very small number of cartridge makers (Shure, Ortofon, Grado and Goldring).

I really like the 103R in my OL silver Mk2. The guys at 6 moons seem to think the pairing works well too:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/originlive3/mk2.html

[Clive197]

I'm really rather baffled regarding the Denon 103R which some of you are praising very highly. The cartridge has a spherical tip and I have always understood that elliptical or shaped stylus are more detailed. So how can a cartridge with a spherical stylus garner so much praise?

[Marco]

Because, Clive, when used in the right context, the limitations of the spherical tip don't impinge obviously on the musical presentation of the cartridge, which in the case of a DL-103 (fitted to a sonically complementary tonearm, turntable and phono stage), can be HUGELY addictive! ;)

Basically, optimally partnered and set-up, the 103 'boogies like a bastard'....

Btw, where's the OP (Jonathan) gone - have we frightened him off? :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Clive197]

Because, Clive, when used in the right context, the limitations of the spherical tip don't impinge obviously on the musical presentation of the cartridge, which in the case of a DL-103 (fitted to a sonically complementary tonearm, turntable and phono stage), can be HUGELY addictive! ;)

Basically, optimally partnered and set-up, the 103 'boogies like a bastard'....

Btw, where's the OP (Jonathan) gone - have we frightened him off? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco, your guess is as good as mine, who knows where he's gone.

I will however dispute your comments on the 103R. In an earlier post you commented the the 103 sounded poor in my Ittoks (both LVII &LVIII) because they were a poor match and then later said that the cartridge probably could be made to work in a OL arm. Both the Ittok and my OL Silver have a mass of about 12grms, so the cartridge should work or not, the same. The resonant frequency in fact would be the same, so how could the cartridge be made to work in one but not the other?

As I stated, I did not like the Denon sound. The Denon 103 was and is an inexpensive MC cartridge and that it is good value for money but in no way would I describe it as HUGELY addictive and capable of boogieing like a bastard.

IMO I think you are, if you will excuse the expression looking at it through Rose coloured spectacles. Unless the cartridge is set up perfectly, it will not give off the best it's capable of. A spherical tip cannot drag large amounts of detail from a groove and furthermore can minutely wear the groove each time it's played, which is why the elliptical stylus was so hugely popular and with its variants still is.

[MCRU]

Clive
I used the 103 for many years, I took it to scalford 2 years ago on my Techy and the amount of punters who said " the 103 should not sound that good" was enlightening!

I now use a Kontrapunkt B as a customer sold it to me for a good price but the 103 will return one day.

[kininigin]

A spherical tip cannot drag large amounts of detail from a groove and furthermore can minutely wear the groove each time it's played, which is why the elliptical stylus was so hugely popular and with its variants still is.

I use my spherical tipped Shure at 3.5g! Seems fine on the records and with plenty of detail as well,also boogies like a bastard!

Never heard the Denon,so cannot comment.It is on the must hear list though!!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Never tried my 103 on my 1210. I'm addicted to hi-end Ortofon carts, I nearly bought a Windfield the other day, just missed out:doh:

[Clive197]

I think everybody is of the opinion that I'm slamming the Denon, I'm not.

As I said in my earlier post, the 103 is an inexpensive cartridge that is good value for money. While I didn't like sound of it does not mean that other people cannot enjoy what they hear but ultimately like REXTON I love the higher end Ortofons. I previously had a Kontrapunct B which I upgraded to the Cadenza Bronze. Previouse to those two I used a Ortofon MC10 and that did "Boogie Like A Bastard"

[Marco]

Hi Clive,

In reference to my last post, you've got the wrong end of the stick, mate. I'm a bit busy now, but will explain later :)

Marco.

[Tarzan]

Clive
I used the 103 for many years, I took it to scalford 2 years ago on my Techy and the amount of punters who said " the 103 should not sound that good" was enlightening!

I now use a Kontrapunkt B as a customer sold it to me for a good price but the 103 will return one day.



You should hear it on my Techie/SME V....... no wait a minute that is not supposed to work either;)

[Marco]

I will however dispute your comments on the 103R. In an earlier post you commented the the 103 sounded poor in my Ittoks (both LVII &LVIII) because they were a poor match and then later said that the cartridge probably could be made to work in a OL arm. Both the Ittok and my OL Silver have a mass of about 12grms, so the cartridge should work or not, the same. The resonant frequency in fact would be the same, so how could the cartridge be made to work in one but not the other?


I only said that the OL Silver *could* be made to work (I haven't heard one fitted with a DL-103), and IMO, that would only apply if more mass were applied to the headshell, probably something in the region of 8-10g, which would increase the effective mass of the OL more in-line with that of tonearms which are traditionally used with a DL-103.

However, contradicting that, some people have reported that they're enjoying excellent results with the 103, on a stock OL Silver, so who am I to argue? It's not ALL about mass, or any other single technical consideration - sometimes things just 'work', sonically, where there is no established reason for it. It's called 'synergy'; and the principle applies often when marrying arms with cartridges, as it does in other areas of hi-fi.


As I stated, I did not like the Denon sound. The Denon 103 was and is an inexpensive MC cartridge and that it is good value for money but in no way would I describe it as HUGELY addictive and capable of boogieing like a bastard.


Well, with respect, you wouldn't know what a DL-103 is truly capable of, as you haven't heard it in the correct context. I can assure you that when used in said context it most certainly does 'boogie like bastard'... Experience tells me that, when fully optimised, the 103 has tremendous energy and 'life', coupled with a propulsive (hugely extended) bass, imbuing all beat-driven music (the area where it excels most) with an infectious 'heft' and dynamic alacrity, making most other cartridges in comparison sound rather anaemic, somewhat musically anodyne, and lacking in 'joie de vivre'.

Also, don't be fooled by the price. The only reason that the 103 is relatively inexpensive is because it's been produced in massive quantities by a giant Japanese company, such as Denon, since 1962, and therefore through sheer economies of scale and continued sales success over decades, is able to be sold at considerably less than it would, if it were produced by a much smaller manufacturer. Quite simply, if the DL-103 were made by, say, someone like Lyra, it would sell for twice or three times what it does now.

The only truly budget part of its design is the horrible stock plastic body, which significantly holds back its performance. This is why (as I've shown below) there are a number of companies who produce aftermarket bodies/shells for the 103, made from superior materials, which allow the superb quality motor/generator and Alnico magnets, contained within its assembly, to do their magic (it is those items which make the DL-103 special). Therefore, for good reasons, the Denon DL-103 has achieved worldwide 'cult status', amongst discerning audiophiles, who know how to get the most from it.

Don't get me wrong, though, substitute the spherical tip for something more accurate (as indeed can also be done - I'd fit an FR stylus and ruby cantilever, both of which can be done by the likes of Domenic Harper of NWA. See here: http://www.northwestanalogue.com/cartridge-repairs.html), and the results are truly stunning, especially when combined with the use of a 'posher' body-shell, resulting in a cartridge that can rival the very best at almost any price (and still sell for considerably less than most so-called 'exotic' MCs) - I kid you not! :trust:

A rather sexy looking DL-103 (I just LOVE ebony), and something I may treat myself to at some point:


http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/9886/9oc1.jpg http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5983/6n2s.jpg

https://www.stereo-lab.de/EN/phono-accessories/stereo-lab-tondoses/stereo-lab-ebony-tondose-dl-103-spu-gm-for-sme.html


The Zu-modified ones are also superb:


http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/756/7vdo.jpg


Check out their modified DL-103R: http://www.zu-audio.de/cms/index.php?page=zu-dl-103r

Stunning!! :eek: :stalks:

Marco.

[NRG]

+1 to Marco's comments, this has been my experience too.

[Clive197]

Good morning Marco.

I am sure that you have read my post no:79, which explains where I'm coming from.


"When compared to modern pickups, the stock Denon DL-103R isn’t the most resolving in the bass, lack detail overall, and is a bit loosygoosy particularly in shimmer and treble tone. " so says Zu-Audio. Not a cartridge that can "Boogie Like A Bastard" then!
I will be the first to admit that I have never heard a modified DL103R let alone known about the modifications you could do.
It brings to mind how to mod a Ford Sierra Cosworth.You take the engine out, sprinkle some fairy dust on and then drop it into the back of a F1 racing car. Now that's what I call a mod that can boogie, but then it's no longer a Ford Sierra is it.:scratch:

[MCRU]

Good morning Marco.

I am sure that you have read my post no:79, which explains where I'm coming from.


"When compared to modern pickups, the stock Denon DL-103R isn’t the most resolving in the bass, lack detail overall, and is a bit loosygoosy particularly in shimmer and treble tone. " so says Zu-Audio. Not a cartridge that can "Boogie Like A Bastard" then!
I will be the first to admit that I have never heard a modified DL103R let alone known about the modifications you could do.
It brings to mind how to mod a Ford Sierra Coswoth. You take the engine out, sprinkle some fairy dust on and then drop it into the back of a F1 racing car. Now that's what I call a mod that can boogie, but then it's no longer a Ford Sierra is it.:scratch:

yawn, maybe start a new thread dude, Denon 103 and it's qualities, and its Cosworth not Coswoth!

[Clive197]

yawn, maybe start a new thread dude, Denon 103 and it's qualities, and its Cosworth not Coswoth!

David please except my sincerest thanks for the spelling lesson. Or was it a typo? Oh by the way, I didn't start the boring bit about the Denon DL103R, and as I recall you chirped in a fair bit.

Furthermore, if you are finding a discussion that Marco and I are having, boring, then don't read it anymore. Simples.

[Marco]

Good morning Marco.

I am sure that you have read my post no:79, which explains where I'm coming from.


"When compared to modern pickups, the stock Denon DL-103R isn’t the most resolving in the bass, lack detail overall, and is a bit loosygoosy particularly in shimmer and treble tone. " so says Zu-Audio. Not a cartridge that can "Boogie Like A Bastard" then!
I will be the first to admit that I have never heard a modified DL103R let alone known about the modifications you could do.
It brings to mind how to mod a Ford Sierra Coswoth. You take the engine out, sprinkle some fairy dust on and then drop it into the back of a F1 racing car. Now that's what I call a mod that can boogie, but then it's no longer a Ford Sierra is it.:scratch:

Afternoon, Clive.

Well, Zu are obviously going to 'talk up' the effect of their modifications (which overall I don't think is unjustified), and of course their description of the stock DL-103R is entirely subjective and dependent on the context in which they assessed it.

Therefore, whilst I agree that a Zu-modifed DL-103R is significantly superior to the stock model, experience tells me that, when optimally partnered, a stock DL-103R is still capable of sounding very good indeed, and yes, 'boogieing like a bastard', which of course in itself is a highly subjective term, and so will mean one thing to one person and perhaps something else to another. I gave you my description of it earlier.

I can also assure you that none of the modifications I've mentioned equate to "fairy dust" and are all fundamentally effective in making an already very good cartridge (used in the right context), even better, and transforming it into something rather special. Put it this way, a DL-103 is worth modifying just as much as is a Technics SL-1200, or a respected vintage amplifier or pair of speakers, quite simply because, in all cases, the 'core ingredients' are of the requisite quality to warrant, and most importantly reward, special attention.

I'm afraid that, until if or when you get to hear this yourself, you'll either just have to take my word for it, or dismiss it as bullshit. It's totally up to you, but I know what my extensive experience of listening to almost every version of the DL-103 ever made, in various different set-ups, over the course of the last 25 years, tells me in this matter :)

Marco.

[Clive197]

Marco, I do value your opinion and I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree on the subjective merits of said cartridge.
Please excuse me but as I'm a Spurs fan, I'm rather preoccupied at the moment. COME ON YOU SPURS.

[Marco]

No worries, Clive. It's a just a pity that you're so far away, as otherwise I'd actually demonstrate those merits to you... ;)

Anyway, good luck with the match - hope you beat Chelsea! :)

Marco.

[Clive197]

Thank you Marco, I too would enjoy a demonstration. A draw, I'll take that, it puts us at the top of the premiership(at least for a while)

[loo]

It's not ALL about mass, or any other single technical consideration - sometimes things just 'work', sonically, where there is no established reason for it. It's called 'synergy'; and the principle applies often when marrying arms with cartridges, as it does in other areas of hi-fi.


totally agree tonearms and cartridges are like human pairings you never know what might work
Paul

[Tarzan]

Marco, I do value your opinion and I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree on the subjective merits of said cartridge.
Please excuse me but as I'm a Spurs fan, I'm rather preoccupied at the moment. COME ON YOU SPURS.


Ban that man for bad language!

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi guys,

Sorry for being so quiet for so long but I had an unfortunate problem on my left shoulder and have been unable to do anything beside laying still on the couch and take several pain-killers in order to be able to survive the day.

I'm now recovering well and will take great attention to all your comments.

I'd like to thank you all for your kind remarks.

I shall read them soon and come back to you.

Regards

[Marco]

No worries, Jonathan. Thanks for the update and get well soon! :)

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi,

Back to business!

Been offline due to shoulder problem and as soon as I got better I had to recover time and had to do a lot of business travels.

So I now finally can come back to this post.

Thank you all for your help.

It's incredible but my 1210 hasn't made a single turn yet. Still standing there on my hifi stack since day one.

I'm going to start from page 1 and read all of your comments and will come back to you asap.

See ya in a bit

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi Jonathan,

Given the type of sound you're trying to achieve I'd definitely avoid using the vast majority of modern cartridges, and buy a Denon 103R, or even better a 103Pro (best available from here: http://www.eifl.co.jp/index/export/export2.htm ), and use it with one of Denon's own (now discontinued) 'high-end' SUTs, which can be bought on ebay, such as this (if you can afford it): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-AU-1000-MC-Step-Up-Transformer-Made-in-Japan-Best-Buy-/281106925741?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item41734748ad or this, if you can't: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-AU-300LC-MC-Step-Up-Transformer-Made-in-Japan-Best-Buy-/281173452872?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item41773e6848 and feed it into the MM input of your preamp/phono stage.

Or, if you fancy a 'leftfield' choice, one of these chaps, which works extremely well with DL-103s, especially the Pro version (as they're both made by the same company): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Highphonic-HP-T6S-MC-Step-Up-Transformer-/190787876981?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item2c6bd7f875

Incidentally, the Highphonic unit (shown above) is also a rival for the popular A23 SUT, which is another option for you, for use with the DL-103R.

Forgive me, as I haven't had time to read through all of the thread properly, but if you're also looking for advice on which tonearm to use, new I'd go for either a Jelco SA-750, or if your budget allows, the Ortofon TA-110, shown here: http://www.ortofon.com/products/tonearms/ta-110

The latter, although similar in looks to the Jelco (and indeed is built by them) now offers a number of upgrades on the SA-750, which really makes it sing with low-compliance MC cartridges - and works fabulously well with the DL-103 and its variants. Second-hand, there are numerous options available on ebay for classic Japanese (detachable headshell-type) tonearms, which match the 103 very well. Other than the Jelco or Ortofon (detailed above), it's those types of tonearms you need in order to make the Denon 'sing'!

I'd also advise you to obtain one of the many excellent tonearm leads, designed by Jannis Tome, as discussed at length here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?17071-Could-this-be-a-giant-killing-tonearm-cable All of the YT cables major on 'liquidity' and 'musical flow', as well as being very natural sounding and detailed, which are all traits of the 'valve sound' you're after.

Also obtain a good record weight (such as those from Bruil, as shown here: http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html), as IME, these help to ameliorate the tendency of the Technics to sound somewhat soulless and 'mechanical', especially when the stock platter, bearing and tonearm are being used.

Lastly, if you haven't already done so, invest in a high-quality tube MM phono stage (look at those from the likes of Croft), as IME, the best ones make listening to music on vinyl a truly beguiling and emotionally involving experience, and in a way which no solid-state active MC phono stage I've heard can emulate, despite their undoubted talents elsewhere.

Hope this helps! :cool:

Marco.

Hi Marco,

Might I ask why do you recommend using a SUT for th MC cart?

I was thinking on going for the Cadence phono stage... http://hifi-advice.com/jeff-rowland-cadence-review.html

A relative of mine who's opinions I cherish, recommended me the following carts.

What are your thoughts? Let me add that I was also recommended to avoid spending more than 750€ on a cart for the 1210 as it might not be justifiable.


VAN DEN HUL DDT-II SPECIAL 995,00 £ (superlative)
BENZ MICRO ACE SL 595,00 £ (superlative)
GOLDRING LEGACY 595,00 £ (very good)
AUDIO TECHNICA AT OC9 MLIII 549,00 £ (excellent)
ORTOFON RONDO BLUE 525,00 £ (very good)
DENON DL-304 429,95 £ (excellent)

I'm very much inclined towards a DL-103r/pro (modified Zu if possible)... But I'm also very curious on how would it work with an Origin Live tonearm.

SME V would be very nice but it's to much money. Unless I found one second-hand at a reasonable price.

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi Marco,

Might I ask why do you recommend using a SUT for th MC cart?

I was thinking on going for the Cadence phono stage... http://hifi-advice.com/jeff-rowland-cadence-review.html

A relative of mine who's opinions I cherish, recommended me the following carts.

What are your thoughts? Let me add that I was also recommended to avoid spending more than 750€ on a cart for the 1210 as it might not be justifiable.


VAN DEN HUL DDT-II SPECIAL 995,00 £ (superlative)
BENZ MICRO ACE SL 595,00 £ (superlative)
GOLDRING LEGACY 595,00 £ (very good)
AUDIO TECHNICA AT OC9 MLIII 549,00 £ (excellent)
ORTOFON RONDO BLUE 525,00 £ (very good)
DENON DL-304 429,95 £ (excellent)

I'm very much inclined towards a DL-103r/pro (modified Zu if possible)... But I'm also very curious on how would it work with an Origin Live tonearm.

SME V would be very nice but it's to much money. Unless I found one second-hand at a reasonable price.


Thinking going towards an origin live silver mk3a and denon dl-103r.

Any comments on this set?

[walpurgis]

Thinking going towards an origin live silver mk3a and denon dl-103r.

Any comments on this set?

Assuming the Silver Mk.3a still bears some of the structural dimensions of Rega arms, you may find the ergonomics awkward on a Techie. I found with Regas that the arm lifter sat very low down in the arm mount recess. A pain!

[Clive197]

Assuming the Silver Mk.3a still bears some of the structural dimensions of Rega arms, you may find the ergonomics awkward on a Techie. I found with Regas that the arm lifter sat very low down in the arm mount recess. A pain!

RUBBISH! The OL arm on a Techie works fine, sounds great too. Denon cartridge ERM!! Not so Shure (pun intended).

[walpurgis]

If you disagree Clive, it wouldn't hurt to be polite about it!

My observation is from experience of Rega arms on Techies. I found them awkward. I merely suggested that OL may have retained similar dimensions.

[Clive197]

If you disagree Clive, it wouldn't hurt to be polite about it!

My observation is from experience of Rega arms on Techies. I found them awkward. I merely suggested that OL may have retained similar dimensions.

Sorry Geoff, I was not trying to be rude. I was just very strongly disagreeing with you based on the fact that I own and run said arm on said deck.

[Marco]

I think it was your use of the word "rubbish", Clive, which caused offence. Disagree with someone else by all means, but please don't refer to other people's perfectly valid observations as "rubbish".

It's rude - we don't use that tone to communicate with each other here.

Marco.

[Clive197]

SORRY

[Clive197]

I think it was your use of the word "rubbish", Clive, which caused offence. Disagree with someone else by all means, but please don't refer to other people's perfectly valid observations as "rubbish".

It's rude - we don't use that tone to communicate with each other here.

Marco.

Marco, I had apologised ten minutes before you posted, so I think that was a bit harsh, but none the less I take your point.

Clive

[Marco]

No problem, Clive. I appreciate your apology. I was simply stating the standards of behaviour expected here from members, that's all.

Anyway, let's move on :)

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Guys no need to get on a fight.

But really do you think this combo might work with the techie, considering my earlier comments?

Or assuming that I were to go with the OL path, which cartridge would you recommend on the same price level?

[Spectral Morn]

If you disagree Clive, it wouldn't hurt to be polite about it!

My observation is from experience of Rega arms on Techies. I found them awkward. I merely suggested that OL may have retained similar dimensions.

Using an Origin Live Technics armboard I have had zero issues either with an OL Silver or an OL Encounter arm or indeed an OL rewired Rega RB 250. Maybe the armboard used led to you having issues.


Regards Neil

[Spectral Morn]

Guys no need to get on a fight.

But really do you think this combo might work with the techie, considering my earlier comments?

Or assuming that I were to go with the OL path, which cartridge would you recommend on the same price level?

Hi Jonathan

It is one possible option open to you, but much depends on the cart you are going to use. Any of the Rega or OL arms work very well with the Benz range of carts from the Silver or Gold upwards. If you want to use a Denon 103 then the Jelco 750D (with a heavier headshell) is the best choice as the two work very well together.


Regards Neil

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi Jonathan

It is one possible option open to you, but much depends on the cart you are going to use. Any of the Rega or OL arms work very well with the Benz range of carts from the Silver or Gold upwards. If you want to use a Denon 103 then the Jelco 750D (with a heavier headshell) is the best choice as the two work very well together.


Regards Neil

It's really a hard decision...

I have the feeling that the OL might be "cooler" than a Jelco / Ortofon (like the one marco proposed) but that would change completly the cart sertup-

I have the feeling that de DL-103 might be better for me than a Benz... I already have a such rich medium range...

Looking for something more beefy. wrong doubts?

[Tiff_Needle]

I just found out good opportunity on a local forum.



What do you think of it? In this case I would go for a DL-103R.

Jelco SA750D w/ mounting collar.

Shell Yamamoto HS-1A

Towsend Audio RCA/DIN

I would prefer another cable but I don't know if the guy is willing to sell these seperatly.

Do you think this shell would match with a 103R?

[Tiff_Needle]

No one?

What do you think of a Two month old Jelco 750D for 500 euros?

From what I've read the oyaide HS-CF would de the match made in heaven for the dl-103...

But what do you think of this head shell?

[AlexM]

Hi,

I think that is a little high in price - I don't know the Townshend lead, but the arm with the Jelco headshell can be picked up new for £389 from Duo-phonic, who are good to do business with (I bought mine from them). They offer to throw in a Isokinetic DL-103 'Cartridge mass stabiliser' if you request it, which worryingly is superglued to the cartridge!. (http://www.cabezon.eu/product_info.php?products_id=111).

See their ebay listing at http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JELCO-SA-750D-BRAND-NEW-HIGH-END-TONEARM-RRP-450-/181107697347?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item2a2adc26c3

That just leaves the tonearm cable, but there plenty of choices there. I would be tempted to DIY something with a Cardas DIN socket and some Van Damme microphone cable with decent phono sockets, and save up for something good.

Edit - I forgot to mention that I use the Oyaide HS-CF, and it is very nice - I use it with a Benz-Micro Ace SM MC, but Marco and others have reported good results with the DL-103.

Regards,
Alex

[Canetoad]

That just leaves the tonearm cable, but there plenty of choices there. I would be tempted to DIY something with a Cardas DIN socket and some Van Damme microphone cable with decent phono sockets, and save up for something good.

Made up one of these with Neutrik Profi plugs and it sounds much better than the Jelco cable.

[Tiff_Needle]

I've been reading rave review on the Benz-Micro ACE...

And it seems that some have used it with the Jelco 750...

Taking into account what I'm looking for and the sort of music I listen to, what are you're thoughts on the BM ACE vs Denon DL-103r?

[AlexM]

I've been reading rave review on the Benz-Micro ACE...

And it seems that some have used it with the Jelco 750...

Taking into account what I'm looking for and the sort of music I listen to, what are you're thoughts on the BM ACE vs Denon DL-103r?

I have not heard the Dl103 but the Ace SM is indeed a fine cartridge. I like mine very much indeed.

Regards, Alex

[walpurgis]

I still don't understand the following the Denon DL-103 has. It's a pleasant enough sounding MC and a bargain at its price, but not exactly the last word in analysis and I found the DL-103R far better. I know many mods are available for the basic 103 and each step releases a bit more potential, but it's not cheap to do. Surely it makes more sense to spend the money on an MC that has all the required musical ablility to start with?

[Marco]

Not if you adore the 103's inherent sonic signature and uniquely addictive way of music-making [only realised when used, synergistically, in the right context]...! ;)

It's a bit like the uninitiated often levy at the Technics SL-1200/1210: what's the point in spending all that money modifying it, when you could've just bought a better T/T in the first place? :doh:

Well...not if you value the sonic performance of that superb D/D motor unit and want to own a turntable with unique musical ability, which can compete with the very best!

...And so it is in the cartridge world, with the DL-103. Suitably modified, retaining what's best about it (the generator and magnet assembly), it can compete with cartridges many times its price - and in a way, musically, which is unique and highly addictive.

I agree that the 103R sounds far better than the stock model, but the only difference between the two is that the 'R' has 6N copper wiring on the coils, so just imagine how it sounds also with an improved body shell and/or stylus or cantilever........

In my experience, fully modified (as described above), the DL-103 is as good, and in some ways better, as MC cartridges in the £2.5k price bracket - and, crucially, it doesn't cost anything like that to get there!

*That*, muchacho, is what all the 'fuss' is about :)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

Fair enough. I've not heard a radically modded DL-103 (yet).

[belloire]

having heard a denon 103r and a benz micro ace on my 1210/SA-750D (both in the Jelco headshell) i'm very much in favour of the benz. really nice cart, and much better (to my ears) than the denon.

not sure how to describe it, but the benz seems to make music better than the denon. i could listen all day, where as the 103r was quite detailed but a bit fatiguing.

there will be plenty here who disagree with me though, as i also like my Audio Techinca ART1 ;)

[Clive197]

having heard a denon 103r and a benz micro ace on my 1210/SA-750D (both in the Jelco headshell) i'm very much in favour of the benz. really nice cart, and much better (to my ears) than the denon.

not sure how to describe it, but the benz seems to make music better than the denon. i could listen all day, where as the 103r was quite detailed but a bit fatiguing.

there will be plenty here who disagree with me though, as i also like my Audio Techinca ART1 ;)

I agree with you, as I've said before and having owned two Denon 103 cartridges they do not have a sonic signature that rings any of my bells.

Clive

[Marco]

...but, as we've said before, Clive, you haven't heard one used in the right context ;)

The fact is, if you haven't heard a DL-103 on the end of a high-mass arm (think classic Jap S-shaped here - no fooking Regas or SMEs)/and or headshell (for the latter think MINIMUM 18g mass), and preferably used through a matching SUT or MC head amp, then you really haven't heard a 103 properly, and thus are in no position to comment with any authority as to how it *really* sounds.

Simples! :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Darren,


having heard a denon 103r and a benz micro ace on my 1210/SA-750D (both in the Jelco headshell) i'm very much in favour of the benz. really nice cart, and much better (to my ears) than the denon.

not sure how to describe it, but the benz seems to make music better than the denon. i could listen all day, where as the 103r was quite detailed but a bit fatiguing.


The 103R should fundamentally not sound that way. It should sound big, bold, smooth and weighty, and not fatiguing in the slightest. Which tonearm was it mounted on and what type of phono stage (and loading) was being used?

What you describe is a classic case of how the 103 sounds when used on a tonearm/and or headshell with insufficient mass.

However, even when fully optimised, you may still prefer the Benz, which is a totally different sounding cartridge with a different set of sonic strengths.

Marco.

[Clive197]

...but, as we've said before, Clive, you haven't heard one used in the right context ;)

The fact is, if you haven't heard a DL-103 on the end of a high-mass arm (think classic Jap S-shaped here - no fooking Regas or SMEs)/and or headshell (for the latter think MINIMUM 18g mass), and preferably used through a matching SUT or MC head amp, then you really haven't heard a 103 properly, and thus are in no position to comment with any authority as to how it *really* sounds.

Simples! :)

Marco.

Marco you are perfectly entitled to your opinion but please do me the courtesy of accepting that I have an opinion also.

While you are correct that I have not heard all the tweaks, the basic "sonic signature" is the same, a fact you yourself pointed out in another post.

Clive

[Marco]

Clive, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion of the 103, of that there is no doubt, but like anyone else, it's simply based on the level of experience you've gained from using it.

Whilst the "basic sonic signature" of the 103 remains, regardless of how modified it is, the fact is it will not behave as intended by the manufacturer unless allowed to do so by the use of the correct partnering equipment.

Darren, for example, has remarked that he found the 103R "a bit fatiguing", which experience tells me is most likely down to the use of insufficient headshell and/or arm mass, as it is fundamentally not how it sounds when the latter has been successfully addressed - quite the opposite in fact.

Therefore, while (like you) he is entitled to his opinion, it doesn't make it correct, and so if not challenged by someone more experienced in that area, is misleading to other members who may not know any better. That's simply the facts of the matter, so let's not fall out about it :)

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Marco, reread Darren's post, he did say a Jelco 750d with jelco headshell, should be a good match shouldn't it?

[Marco]

Hi Chris,

The Jelco is fine, but it needs a much heavier headshell than the stock one, in order for a DL-103 to be entirely happy. Fit something like an Audio Technica LH-18, however, and you're away! :)

See here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brand-New-audio-technica-AT-LH18-OCC-head-shell-lowest-price-made-in-Japan-/251406496845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a88feb44d

Marco.

[Marco]

Incidentally, Darren and Clive (amongst others) may find this thread of interest: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?550-Headshell-rolling-with-the-SL-1210&highlight=headshell+rolling

It's certainly relevant to our current discussion! :)

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi Marco,

So from what I've understood, you're saying that the DL-103 might be better suited for what I'm looking for than the ACE, is that correct?

You've mentioned earlier on the oyaide head shell... What are you're thoughts on it against the One mentioned on your last post?

I'm thinking on going with the Jelco 750D with Denon's DL-103(r?) and either one of these two head shells...

But I'm not that much of a fan on using further "boxes" on the system, that is the SUTpath...

Why do you claim that other solutions such as the one I've been considering from the very beginning, Jeff Rowland Cadence (seems a perfect match and the natural contender for my system), are better?

I admit that most active MC phono stages might not be the best their is, but it seems that the general consensus is that the Cadence is one of the best phono stages in the world regardless of price, period. I for one have no actual experience with it, but I do know what is the sound signature of my Rowland gear... Doesn't seem a wrong path...

That is unless I wouldn't be able to get that sound that I'm looking for only with this arm+cart+shell setup. Do you see the actual need to go with a SUT such as A23 and a MM tube stage, to get that sound that I described at the beginning of this thread?

Honestly, a valid a lot your opinion... Seems to me you've been quite around with the techie and have already through a suffering path with so many expensive "mistakes" that at least, to say the least, enabled you to have an experienced opinion on this TT and what is good to extract the best from it.

Although I must say, those Origin Live tonearms do look astonishing... And a lot as been said on many highly claimed literature, such as HiFi Choice, about those tonearms. Switching to chick mode... OL look quite nicer than the Jelco :P

Thank you.

PS: for months now the 1210 as been gaining nothing but dust due to my indicisions... I'm eager to start playing my vinyl collection (that hasn't stopped growing by the way ;) )
And since I've heard a small LP setup (Dual with a Ortofons Blue with a project phono stage) beating the hell of a 5k€ plus CD player on a really nice system (old school YBA + shahinnian loudspeaker), I simply can't wait!

[Tiff_Needle]

I'm decided!

I'll go for the Jelco 750D for now and invest on a more high tonearm in the future!

And I might really stick with the Denon DL-103... Don't know why but something tells me, that althou ACE might be an excelent cart, the DL-103 is what I'm looking for at the moment.

Whether I should go for the R or non R model... I'll wait for a few of your replies before deciding.

I would really like your opinions on the Audio Technica Headshell vs the Oyaide headshell. Which one do you see as being the best for the DL-103?

Would it be necessary a spacer?

By the way, where can I get a board adapter for the 1210 so that I can fit the Jelco in?

Much appreciated

Jonathan

[Ammonite Audio]

By the way, where can I get a board adapter for the 1210 so that I can fit the Jelco in?


These are the best ones, from a chap in Greece - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jelco-SA-750D-SA-250-Armboard-Plate-Technics-SL-1200-1210-MK2-MK3-MK4-MK5-M5G-/161174731605?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2586c33b55

[Tiff_Needle]

ok...

Defenitly a Denon DL103-Pro!

I've already asked three possible distributor on pricing and shipping.

Would you still reccomend something like the A23 with the Pro version? If not, the SUT mentioned earlier, from the likes of Denon itself, would be the best match?

I want to have my turntable playing music by the end of this Month! Boy, that is really an ambitious target, believe me... With all the craziness happening at work...

Wuuf.. I'll have to manage.

[Tiff_Needle]

These are the best ones, from a chap in Greece - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jelco-SA-750D-SA-250-Armboard-Plate-Technics-SL-1200-1210-MK2-MK3-MK4-MK5-M5G-/161174731605?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2586c33b55

Many thanks!!!

[walpurgis]

Many thanks!!!

That's a very decent looking arm mounting plate. Not seen those before, sensibly priced too.

[Tiff_Needle]

That's a very decent looking arm mounting plate. Not seen those before, sensibly priced too.


Does look like it...

Already placed an order!

[Tiff_Needle]

One thing that's troubling me is the fact that my pre amp is balanced (Jeff Rowland Synergy IIi) so is any MC cart that by nature is a balanced signal, and going with a SUT+MM setup, I end up unbalancing to balance it once more.

Wouldn't it simply be more effective if the chain remained balanced?

I'm still struggling with whether I should go with the natural contender (JRDG Cadence) or A23 + MM valve phono stage...

For those who know, Jeff Rowland designs uses input and output transformers on all stages. Wouldn't I be putting simply too many trafos in the middle? Although the cadence phono stage itself also uses transformer on the signal... I've read so many marvelous things about the cadence phono stage. Troubling decision...

The fact is that, say A23 and Croft RIAA, would still be cheaper solution (cables apart has I already have so many XLR cables...) than the Cadence! :mental:

The one proposed here by Marco, croft RIAA, look incredibly simple design, if not dare I say, homemade alike...

I've never heard these crofts. But from what I've read, they do seem nice sounding.

[Macca]

Croft gear is handmade rather than home made - no blingy case = no stupid price tag. Can't really help you with your decision though as not really my strongpoint other than to say that simpler is usually better.

[Tiff_Needle]

Croft gear is handmade rather than home made - no blingy case = no stupid price tag. Can't really help you with your decision though as not really my strongpoint other than to say that simpler is usually better.

Oh, don't get me wrong... I didn't ment saying in any way that is was an amateur product.

Simply that it lacks a bit that luxurious design that only by looking at it you think it sound wright.

But it seems to be a nice design.

Although the interior and exterior could have maybe some more attention to detail.

Nevertheless I'm really considering it for my main system!

It's all about the pleasure of listening music, and not sound or badge bragging gear ;)

[Macca]

Oh, don't get me wrong... I didn't ment saying in any way that is was an amateur product.

Simply that it lacks a bit that luxurious design that only by looking at it you think it sound wright.

;)

I know what you mean. Croft is strictly for those who are in the know and don't listen with their eyes. In other words totally at odds with all the other High End 'hi-fi as male jewellery' stuff it is competing with. Made by someone else and put in a fancy case it would be 5 times the price.

[Tiff_Needle]

I know what you mean. Croft is strictly for those who are in the know and don't listen with their eyes. In other words totally at odds with all the other High End 'hi-fi as male jewellery' stuff it is competing with. Made by someone else and put in a fancy case it would be 5 times the price.

We're on the same page! ;)

[Tiff_Needle]

Just found out that apparently there is a DL-103Pro and a DL-103R Pro.

Can anyone confirm this?

[Marco]

Hi Jonathan,

Sorry for the late reply - just been busy!


So from what I've understood, you're saying that the DL-103 might be better suited for what I'm looking for than the ACE, is that correct?


It very much depends on what type of sound you're looking for. The DL-103 (when optimally partnered and set-up) will have a more weighty and authoritative sound, with superb 'heft' and drive, together with a very engaging 'valve-like' communicativeness in the midrange, whilst being reasonably detailed too, and with the right music, it boogies like a bastard!

The Benz will have more overall 'polish' and finesse, more filigree detailing at the top end, and overall will extract more detail from the grooves and sound sweeter, especially at the end of side on albums (due to a more refined stylus profile). To my ears, the Benz ticks more of the relevant 'hi-fi boxes', but the 103 has potentially the greater 'fun factor'.


You've mentioned earlier on the oyaide head shell... What are you're thoughts on it against the One mentioned on your last post?


For a DL-103, I'd go for a heavier headshell than the Oyaide (unless you're planning to use it in conjunction with an extra weight, like this: http://www.analogueseduction.net/isokinetik-rega-upgrades-and-parts/isokinetik-cartridge-stabiliser-3-gram.html )

The 18g AT headshell would be ideal, and not require bulking up with any added mass.


Why do you claim that other solutions such as the one I've been considering from the very beginning, Jeff Rowland Cadence (seems a perfect match and the natural contender for my system), are better?


I can't say that what I've suggested is better than the JR, in your system, as I've not heard your system or the JR. However, from considerable experience I can say that the DL-103, 9 times out of 10, sounds much better going through a moving coil step-up transformer, into a MM phono stage (preferably valve).

Try not to think of an SUT as an 'extra box', because in many ways it actually simplifies the signal path, compared to it having to negociate all the active components inside a standard MC phono stage. This is an interesting article, which explains the whole process:

http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/mc_step-up_transformers_explai.html


Do you see the actual need to go with a SUT such as A23 and a MM tube stage, to get that sound that I described at the beginning of this thread?


I would say yes, if you value getting that type of sound, together with what I've described is achievable with the DL-103, when properly set-up and fully optimised. The A23 is but one of the SUT options, but there are many others, depending on your budget.


Honestly, a valid a lot your opinion... Seems to me you've been quite around with the techie and have already through a suffering path with so many expensive "mistakes" that at least, to say the least, enabled you to have an experienced opinion on this TT and what is good to extract the best from it.


Thanks. I only ever comment on subjects that I genuinely know something about, and when it comes to the DL-103, I've been experimenting with it, and using it in all sorts of different contexts, for over 30 years - so yes, you could say that I know it inside out! With the Technics SL-1210, I've been very 'hands-on' with that for the last 6 years, so I know that pretty well too, and how to get the most out of it.


Although I must say, those Origin Live tonearms do look astonishing... And a lot as been said on many highly claimed literature, such as HiFi Choice, about those tonearms. Switching to chick mode... OL look quite nicer than the Jelco :P


OL arms are very good, but the Jelco is a better match for the DL-103, especially when fitted with the AT headshell :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Just found out that apparently there is a DL-103Pro and a DL-103R Pro.

Can anyone confirm this?

A DL-103R Pro is a new one on me, but I wouldn't rule it out. In actuality, it makes more sense to modify a 103R (and convert it to 'Pro status') than the stock 103, as the former uses 6N pure copper wire on the coils.

Therefore, that combined with the stock DL-103 Pro's superior high-frequency response (compared with that of a standard 103), should provide superior results.

Where did you hear about the DL-103R Pro?

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi Jonathan,

Sorry for the late reply - just been busy!



It very much depends on what type of sound you're looking for. The DL-103 (when optimally partnered and set-up) will have a more weighty and authoritative sound, with superb 'heft' and drive, together with a very engaging 'valve-like' communicativeness in the midrange, whilst being reasonably detailed too, and with the right music, it boogies like a bastard!

The Benz will have more overall 'polish' and finesse, more filigree detailing at the top end, and overall will extract more detail from the grooves and sound sweeter, especially at the end of side on albums (due to a more refined stylus profile). To my ears, the Benz ticks more of the relevant 'hi-fi boxes', but the 103 has potentially the greater 'fun factor'.



For a DL-103, I'd go for a heavier headshell than the Oyaide (unless you're planning to use it in conjunction with an extra weight, like this: http://www.analogueseduction.net/isokinetik-rega-upgrades-and-parts/isokinetik-cartridge-stabiliser-3-gram.html )

The 18g AT headshell would be ideal, and not require bulking up with any added mass.



I can't say that what I've suggested is better than the JR, in your system, as I've not heard your system or the JR. However, from considerable experience I can say that the DL-103, 9 times out of 10, sounds much better going through a moving coil step-up transformer, into a MM phono stage (preferably valve).

Try not to think of an SUT as an 'extra box', because in many ways it actually simplifies the signal path, compared to it having to negociate all the active components inside a standard MC phono stage. This is an interesting article, which explains the whole process:

http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/mc_step-up_transformers_explai.html



I would say yes, if you value getting that type of sound, together with what I've described is achievable with the DL-103, when properly set-up and fully optimised. The A23 is but one of the SUT options, but there are many others, depending on your budget.



Thanks. I only ever comment on subjects that I genuinely know something about, and when it comes to the DL-103, I've been experimenting with it, and using it in all sorts of different contexts, for over 30 years - so yes, you could say that I know it inside out! With the Technics SL-1210, I've been very 'hands-on' with that for the last 6 years, so I know that pretty well too, and how to get the most out of it.



OL arms are very good, but the Jelco is a better match for the DL-103, especially when fitted with the AT headshell :)

Marco.

Thank You, Marco!

[Tiff_Needle]

A DL-103R Pro is a new one on me, but I wouldn't rule it out. In actuality, it makes more sense to modify a 103R (and convert it to 'Pro status') than the stock 103, as the former uses 6N pure copper wire on the coils.

Therefore, that combined with the stock DL-103 Pro's superior high-frequency response (compared with that of a standard 103), should provide superior results.

Where did you hear about the DL-103R Pro?

Marco.

Yes, indeed... I hope I've understood correctly. At least that was my understanding from the email I received from the Japanese distributor that you recommended for the Pro version.

Please check if that is also your understanding from what was written (in a somewhat strange English - Not that I'm a native Englishman...). Here's the email transcript:

"
I have DL-103R PRO in stock now. Highphonic raised price lately.

If you want DL-103PRO, I will sell this upper model at same price with DL-103PRO.
"

[Marco]

From that it would seem that there is now a DL-103R Pro. but I would check by sending an email asking very straighforwardly whether they are talking about a DL-103R Pro, or just a DL-103 Pro.

Keep it very short and simple, so that there is no room for confusion :)

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

From that it would seem that there is now a DL-103R Pro. but I would check by sending an email asking very straighforwardly whether they are talking about a DL-103R Pro, or just a DL-103 Pro.

Keep it very short and simple, so that there is no room for confusion :)

Marco.

Iup...

Done!

Quite intriguing... DL-103R Pro... Hum. the only one that I was aware of above the PRO was the DL-103 SA.

By the way, is the extra hundreds worth it? Anyone here with experience with these?

[Marco]

Yes, it is worth it. I owned a DL-103SA, and it was unquestionably the best 103 I've ever heard. However, you may struggle to find any now, as they were produced in limited quantities, and are now discontinued.

If you are able to find some NOS ones somewhere, and can afford the asking price, then a DL-103SA will almost certainly outperform a DL-103R Pro or 'stock' DL-103 Pro.

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Yes, it is worth it. I owned a DL-103SA, and it was unquestionably the best 103 I've ever heard. However, you may struggle to find any now, as they were produced in limited quantities, and are now discontinued.

If you are able to find some NOS ones somewhere, and can afford the asking price, then a DL-103SA will almost certainly outperform a DL-103R Pro or 'stock' DL-103 Pro.

Marco.

Apparently still available... DENON DL-103SA for "only" 800$ :stalks:

[Marco]

Well, if you can afford it, nab it.

I can tell you that, in the right arm and system it performs like a £2k cartridge :)

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

The right arm being... Not the one I already bought, lol.

Maybe something more high-endish than Jelco SA-750D that I just ordered yesterday... ?!?

[NRG]

$800 is waaay too much IMO especially for a used one! 2Juki had one a while back and it was about $650 AFAIR, get a 'R' and rebody it...

[Marco]

Nope - the Jelco is spot on!

See my Jelco SA-750 and DL-103SA pictured here in 2009 (fitted to a high-mass Fidelity Research headshell): http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?1754-The-Marco-boy-system-as-of-Jan-2009&highlight=marco-boy


http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/8291/3u2m.jpg


Trust me, the DL-103SA/Jelco 750 ROCKS!! :gig:

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

That price was for a new cart...

[Marco]

$800 is waaay too much IMO especially for a used one! 2Juki had one a while back and it was about $650 AFAIR, get a 'R' and rebody it...

Don't touch a used one with a bargepole. When I said 'NOS' earlier, I meant New Old Stock - i.e. BRAND NEW and UNUSED. Only entertain buying those!

Marco.

[NRG]

Ah! Sorry got the wrong end of the stick, here's a used one on the 'bay right now...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DENON-DL-103SA-MC-Cartridge/321260606086?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3 D1%26asc%3D27%26meid%3D3930566141533726791%26pid%3 D100033%26prg%3D1011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D291 049024688%26

[Marco]

That price was for a new cart...

New is cool.

Btw, Neal, there's something magical about the sound of the 103SA, which must be to do with the unique sonic characteristics of the fibreglass composite body-shell. Denon have clearly found a material which synergises optimally with the inherent musicality of the DL-103.

Honestly, I've never heard another 103 like it - even the Zu-Audio ones don't compare!

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

@ Marco

And you paired the SA version with the Auditorium A23 SUT?

Sorry for all the questions..

If I made a deep search I would probably find out these Infos on the forum on other threads.

At least this way I have a little 1210 journey to Audionirvana Bible that I can keep on checking each time, it's time to UPGRADE! ;)

[Marco]

Yup, rest assured, the Jelco SA-750/Denon DL-103SA and Auditorium 23 are a match made in heaven :)

Some of Denon's own SUTs are also very good, as are those from Highphonic.

Marco.

[Marco]

Interesting article, with comparisons between the DL-103R and 103SA: http://highfidelity.pl/!ev/artykuly/21_02_2009/denon.html

:)

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Interesting article, with comparisons between the DL-103R and 103SA: http://highfidelity.pl/!ev/artykuly/21_02_2009/denon.html

:)

Marco.

Wow!

Really nice, thank you. But no mention to the Professional version.... to bad.

[Tiff_Needle]

Well that settles then, two pro versions exist!

"
Moi:
So just to be clear you're saying there exists two pro versions.

DL-103Pro

And

DL-103R Pro

Correct?

EIFL:
YES! Correct!

Moi:
Do you also have the DL-103SA available for sale?

EIFL:
Sold out. Sorry!
"

So what now? Which one's better? I suppose DL-103R Pro should be better, no?

I'll try to find more info on the net...

[Marco]

The DL-103R Pro would be better, but that 103SA you saw would be better still! ;)

Incidentally, here are some rather sexy looking body-shells for redoing a stock DL-103: http://calamightysound.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/uwe-and-midas-bodies-for-denon-dl-103.html


http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/412/ni0q.jpg


Looks pretty good, doesn't it? Although I wouldn't use it on a Rega arm! :nono:

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

The DL-103R Pro would be better, but that 103SA you saw would be better still! ;)

Incidentally, here are some rather sexy looking body-shells for redoing a stock DL-103: http://calamightysound.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/uwe-and-midas-bodies-for-denon-dl-103.html


http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/412/ni0q.jpg


Looks pretty good, doesn't it? Although I wouldn't use it on a Rega arm! :nono:

Marco.

Iup, looks sexy!

I've been reading a very long thread on the DL-103 at -> http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=2589.0

Did you check my PM?

[NRG]

Uwe PanzerHoltz

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/PL-71/DSCF6923.jpg

[chris@panteg]

Wow!

Really nice, thank you. But no mention to the Professional version.... to bad.

I think the 'pro' tag is someone doing a bit of hype ? I don't believe there is a pro version.

[Audioman]

The DL-103R Pro would be better, but that 103SA you saw would be better still! ;)

Incidentally, here are some rather sexy looking body-shells for redoing a stock DL-103: http://calamightysound.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/uwe-and-midas-bodies-for-denon-dl-103.html


http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/412/ni0q.jpg


Looks pretty good, doesn't it? Although I wouldn't use it on a Rega arm! :nono:

Marco.

That looks like an Audiomods arm to me? I believe you have arm mass tailored with less holes.

[RochaCullen]

The DL-103R Pro would be better, but that 103SA you saw would be better still! ;)

Incidentally, here are some rather sexy looking body-shells for redoing a stock DL-103: http://calamightysound.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/uwe-and-midas-bodies-for-denon-dl-103.html


http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/412/ni0q.jpg


Looks pretty good, doesn't it? Although I wouldn't use it on a Rega arm! :nono:

Marco.

That record weight looks like the filter from inside my Bialetti Moka Express!! :)

[NRG]

I think the 'pro' tag is someone doing a bit of hype ? I don't believe there is a pro version.

The Pro tag applies to the Highphonic custom tweaked/prepared 103s AFAIK IE:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Highphonic-DL-103PRO-MC-type-Cartridge-DL-103-PRO-/200885237184

[Marco]

Indeed, although the dispute is over whether a 103R is being used as the 'donor' cartridge, for Highphonic then modifying to 'Pro' status, as opposed to the usual stock DL-103.

The jury's still out on that one.

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Indeed, although the dispute is over whether a 103R is being used as the 'donor' cartridge, for Highphonic then modifying to 'Pro' status, as opposed to the usual stock DL-103.

The jury's still out on that one.

Marco.

My understanding is that they are doing it with both now.

One thing that worries me is that, apparently, HIGHPHONIC's DL-103PRO custom tuned version of the DL-103 is made in a way that the stylus is not replaceable at DENON nor even at Highphonic?!?!

A tad turn off, is you ask me...

[Tiff_Needle]

Now this is a stunning casing for the denon

http://www.lignolab.com/resource/content/img/tonabnehmer/b/1.jpg

Wonder if it sounds as good as it looks and if it's worth the extra money

[Marco]

Is that the Lignolab bronze one? :)

Marco.

[Tarzan]

Now this is a stunning casing for the denon

http://www.lignolab.com/resource/content/img/tonabnehmer/b/1.jpg

Wonder if it sounds as good as it looks and if it's worth the extra money




:eek::eek:

[Tiff_Needle]

Is that the Lignolab bronze one? :)

Marco.

Correct!

http://www.lignolab.com/en/products/tonabnehmergehaeuse/

[Marco]

Of course - remember you're talking to the DL-103 master! ;)

Marco.

[MCRU]

Of course - remember you're talking to the DL-103 master! ;)

Marco.

:lol: pity your surname is not "bates" then :lol:

[Tiff_Needle]

Of course - remember you're talking to the DL-103 master! ;)

Marco.

There is no doubt in my mind ;)

But the weight of the casing alone wouldn't be more suitable with a lighter headshell than say an ATAT-LH18/OCC?

This casing alone adds 14grams!!!

[Marco]

But the weight of the casing alone wouldn't be more suitable with a lighter headshell than say an ATAT-LH18/OCC?


Yeah, in that instance I'd go lighter on the headshell, and probably use an AT MG-10.

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Yeah, in that instance I'd go lighter on the headshell, and probably use an AT MG-10.

Marco.

I thought so... Maybe on a future upgrade...

For now I'll stick to the "normal" DL-103 casing with the ATAT-LH18/OCC headshell (already ordered one).

I've read that great improvements can be achieved by chaging the carts casing, even when nude!

Should I like the DL's character (certainly hope so has the investment is going to be substantial - By the way where can I get the A23 SUT?), I might consider selling my headhsell and go for a lighter one with a casing such as this one...

But for the amount invested only on casing, I would prefer upgrade other parts on the 1210.

This might already have been mentioned, but would you recommend going first with the MN bearing upgrade or the Paul Hynes SR7EHD off-board PSU and extra regulator modules?

[Marco]

Mmm... Difficult one that, as they both offer significant sonic upgrades, but in different ways.

I think the MN bearing just shades it, as being the one to do first, mainly because I don't think the Technics starts to 'grow up' properly (into a genuinely high-end T/T) until an MN bearing is installed.

Also, have you added up how much an SR7 costs, with the regulator modules and DC7CXL/Yaeger connector and DC lead? :eek:

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Mmm... Difficult one that, as they both offer significant sonic upgrades, but in different ways.

I think the MN bearing just shades it, as being the one to do first, mainly because I don't think the Technics starts to 'grow up' properly (into a genuinely high-end T/T) until an MN bearing is installed.

Hum... interesting!



Also, have you added up how much an SR7 costs, with the regulator modules and DC7CXL/Yaeger connector and DC lead? :eek:

Marco.

Not yet, no... But I have the feeling it costs more than what I've paid for the 1210! Do you know by heart how much are we talking about?

[Wakefield Turntables]

I thought so... Maybe on a future upgrade...

For now I'll stick to the "normal" DL-103 casing with the ATAT-LH18/OCC headshell (already ordered one).

I've read that great improvements can be achieved by chaging the carts casing, even when nude!

Should I like the DL's character (certainly hope so has the investment is going to be substantial - By the way where can I get the A23 SUT?), I might consider selling my headhsell and go for a lighter one with a casing such as this one...

But for the amount invested only on casing, I would prefer upgrade other parts on the 1210.

This might already have been mentioned, but would you recommend going first with the MN bearing upgrade or the Paul Hynes SR7EHD off-board PSU and extra regulator modules?

If you want my advice I would get the bearing first and then you can see how your decks improved. I would then buy either/or the SR7EHD (XL) if you can afford it and the regs at the same time. You will see an incremental improvement with each upgrade. Sometimes its nice to see what each upgrade brings to the table. Personally I just bought the whole lot and quickly went up the upgrade path.


Mmm... Difficult one that, as they both offer significant sonic upgrades, but in different ways.

I think the MN bearing just shades it, as being the one to do first, mainly because I don't think the Technics starts to 'grow up' properly (into a genuinely high-end T/T) until an MN bearing is installed.

Also, have you added up how much an SR7 costs, with the regulator modules and DC7CXL/Yaeger connector and DC lead? :eek:

Marco.

The SR7XL is a costly beast. Your going to be looking at £2-2.5k ish for the bearing/regs/ and the SR7. Good luck with your purchases and if you buy them, then welcome to the club. You probably can't do much more with the 1210 after that lot.

[Marco]

Not yet, no... But I have the feeling it costs more than what I've paid for the 1210! Do you know by heart how much are we talking about?

The exact total is £1024, so get saving! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

The exact total is £1024, so get saving! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Holly schmokes!!! Woowaa...

Maybe a tad overkill for the tonearm+cartride+headshell that I'm going for at the momment....

Even before the MN B, I think I'll go for the funk firm platter and acromat! Only then, will I start thinking on what to do next.... You know, there is more to the system than the analog source! Iaix!

New speaker cables.... New DAC... Oooff... The life of an audiophool is quite hard :lol:

[Wakefield Turntables]

The exact total is £1024, so get saving! :eyebrows:

Marco.

What did this buy you?

[Marco]

What did this buy you?

Add it up for yourself, dude. All the prices are here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?16655-Paul-Hynes-Power-Supplies

Marco.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Just realised I bought the internal regs at the same time and I have the XL version whilst you have standard version ;) That's why my bill was slightly more!

[Tiff_Needle]

What are your thoughts on the CJ EV1?

That is for denon DL-103 with an A23?

Too much gain?

[Tiff_Needle]

Can anyone explain me the idea behind this test?

http://youtu.be/WwuAEC3CV9k

Looking for ressonance?

[NRG]

Yes the arm and cartridge resonance....more here:

http://www.ortofon.com/support/cartridgetonearm-resonance-frequency

[Spectral Morn]

One thing that's troubling me is the fact that my pre amp is balanced (Jeff Rowland Synergy IIi) so is any MC cart that by nature is a balanced signal, and going with a SUT+MM setup, I end up unbalancing to balance it once more.

Wouldn't it simply be more effective if the chain remained balanced?

I'm still struggling with whether I should go with the natural contender (JRDG Cadence) or A23 + MM valve phono stage...

For those who know, Jeff Rowland designs uses input and output transformers on all stages. Wouldn't I be putting simply too many trafos in the middle? Although the cadence phono stage itself also uses transformer on the signal... I've read so many marvelous things about the cadence phono stage. Troubling decision...

The fact is that, say A23 and Croft RIAA, would still be cheaper solution (cables apart has I already have so many XLR cables...) than the Cadence! :mental:

The one proposed here by Marco, croft RIAA, look incredibly simple design, if not dare I say, homemade alike...

I've never heard these crofts. But from what I've read, they do seem nice sounding.


I apologise for not replying earlier as I have been for the most part sans the net for the last three weeks or so.

All you need is an arm cable terminated with XLRs (you can use rca to xlr adaptors but hard wired sounds best) and you can try the phonostage in balanced mode - essentially carts are a balanced design so running them balanced is worth doing, but many folks don't like doing this, preferring the sound of single ended phonostages either dedicated moving coil designs or mm only with a step up transformer - if you are using a moving coil design.

However like all things audio much will depend on what you like the sound of and there are differences to be found between the various options, but keep in mind that those don't necessarily equate to one option being better than the other just different.

While some common ground can be found being honest different ears, rooms, music, systems, listening preferences will result in some conflicting advice, opinion so in reality you need to audition as many of these options yourself, but the major problem is its very hard to find any dealer these days who can offer you many options re what you are looking for - bit of a minefield.


Regards Neil

[Tiff_Needle]

Thank you all for your inputs.

I've been reading some of your comments on another thread regarding PH head amp and how it seems to compensate for some of the known limitation of the 1210, or the majority of DD, namely a somehow narrow stage, or should I say inexistent dipole stage effect.

What are your thought on it with a cartridge like the DL-103 (whatever variant)?

One of the reason I thought on the CJ EV1 was precisely, apart from the more or less acceptable techni-color presentation that I'm looking for and CJ does so well (as mentioned I lived several years with a premier 11 amp and now my way around CJ's sound signature), due to the know wide stage that the EV1 is know for.

Would PH's head amp be a good match for this setup (Jelco SA-750D / Audio-technica AT-LH18/OCC head shell / DL-103 which ever variant, but most likely the R version) as opposed for a SUT such as A23 + Croft RIIA?

[Andrei]

Would PH's head amp be a good match for this setup (Jelco SA-750D / Audio-technica AT-LH18/OCC head shell / DL-103 which ever variant, but most likely the R version
It is not a question of matching. If you can improve the spin of your platter ie keep it at exactly 33 or 45 then it does not matter what arm, headshell or cartridge you have. The issue is rather whether it would improve your sound. Generally speaking an improved power supply should do that. I purchased the Longdog power supply from mcru and that has resulted in a cleaner sound for me.

[Tiff_Needle]

Alas! My new Jelco SA-750D Tonearm just arrived!!!

Still waiting for the geadshell and tonearm adapter... Meanwhile I've also purchased the Isonoe feet.

What do you think of 375€ for a Denon DL-103R? That is delivered to my home address.

I've searched and searched for the DL-103 SA but the only one I found (NEW) the guy never replied to me...

Any comments on my last questions?

[Marco]

Hi Jonathan,

The price you've quoted for the 103R seems good. Have you checked some of the UK websites? Harrow Audio is doing it for £289.95: http://www.harrowaudiohifi.co.uk/denon-dl103r-5

That equates to approximately 349€... Of course, you'll have shipping to Lisbon on top of that, so I doubt you'll be saving much, if any, on the price you've already been quoted. It's interesting, though, that the cheapest price I've found for one in the UK is less than what you can find it for in Europe.

I wouldn't have suspected that... Also, have you thoroughly searched all the usual Japanese sites?

Eifl (my favourite and most trusted site for Jap gear) have the 103R listed for $307 (American), shipped. See here (scroll down until you see the cartridges): http://www.eifl.co.jp/index/export/export2.htm

That's approx 225€. Of course, you may also get hit with tax and import duty, but that's still a pretty good price, particularly if it slips through the net, as it were!

Furthermore, they also have the 'SA' listed for $727 (American), and don't mention anything about it being unavailable, so they may still have some stock... ;)

I'd contact them if I were you, and see what the score is.

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi Marco,

Yes I've already contacted them... Unfortunately they don't have the SA in stock... To bad. They have thought the unknown DL-103R Pro... But it seems a bit steep and I really don't know if it's worth it.

Any comments on my previous questions? Phono stage, SUT, PH HeadAmp...

[Tiff_Needle]

No thoughts on the CJ EV1 paired with the Denon DL-103 and A23?

Wouldn't it be to much gain?

[Marco]

Unfortunately I can't comment on that, Jonathan, as I know nothing about the CJ.

Marco.

[Tarzan]

Unfortunately I can't comment on that,


Marco did not get where he is today by knowing the merits of CJ bits of kit.:D

[Tiff_Needle]

Anyone here can help me on the DC Coil resistance of each iteration of the DL-103?

Or at least of the standard and R version?

[NRG]

R = 14 Ohm
Standard = 40 Ohm

They are all listed on the cartridge database over on vinylengine....

[Tiff_Needle]

Thank you!

The CJ-EV 1 seems very promising... But I'm a bit concern with it gain with a SUT for the DL-103.

Any thoughts?

[Macca]

Marco did not get where he is today by knowing the merits of CJ bits of kit.:D

Ha! Just seen this and it's brilliant. Have a belated tip of the hat from me.

Jonathan - my advice is you are over-thinking this a bit. It's not a desperately expensive cart so buy it, try it and see what you think. They are popular carts so you will be able to sell it on if you really don't get on with it or if it does prove totally incompatible which I think unlikely.

[Marco]

Thank you!

The CJ-EV 1 seems very promising... But I'm a bit concern with it gain with a SUT for the DL-103.

Any thoughts?

Jonathan, see my post here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?6345-FS-Auditorium-23-Step-up-Transformer-for-DENON-103-R&p=520846#post520846

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Jonathan, see my post here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?6345-FS-Auditorium-23-Step-up-Transformer-for-DENON-103-R&p=520846#post520846

Marco.

Thanks Marco.

By the way, can anyone please explain me what is this all about? http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?7359-Custom-Arm-Mounting-Collar-for-Jelco-SA-750-essential-for-setting-correct-azimuth

I haven't mounted my arm yet (still in the box) neither the the armboard adapter (bought this one -> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jelco-SA-7...item2586c33b55)...

How does this colar fit in all of this? Do I have to do new drills?

To be honest I ven't read the thread yet... but if someone could point me towards the right directiom I would apreciate.

[Tiff_Needle]

Nothing?

[Tiff_Needle]

Another thing...

I got the AT LH18/OCC Headshell and it's quite heavy.

Between the DL-103R and SA the SA is heavier. The R is 8,5g and the SA 9,7g.

Is the LH18 headshell to heavy for the SA? I hope not...

[Tiff_Needle]

So back in the game with a brand new DL-103SA flying home. :)

Now for the SUT and phono stage...

A lot of you recommend the A23... But... I've got a few thoughts I'd like to share with you and have your opinions on it.



It seems funny that everybody recommends it (although some point towards Bob's device and luxman) when it was actually built for the regular 103 that as an output impedance completely different from the R/SA iterations... But still comes as highly recommended!

Funny... stange for me to understand these experiences when you're an electrical engineer and the only thing that comes to one's mind is... that can't make sense... it's a completely different load...

Either way I'm considering it as although there are many things in this world that don't make sense for an electrical engineer, I've had my share of nonsense tech axioms that have given grate joy to these ears...


As for the phono stage... Once again a some of you recommend Croft?.

But I really don't know if it's on the same league as my remaining system... Hope I'm not being to snob here. That's not the point. I really have no experience with Croft and have nowhere to ear it over here.

I missed an opportunity to get a Conrad-Johnson EV1 (STUPID) at a great price and I've always like CJ's house sound.

I know it quite well after living 15+ years with a CJ Premier 11 and PV-12 Pre with a pair of Proac Responde 2.5. It had it's drawbacks, a lot of them compared to my system, but it had a life that I lost with my system. Not that it's too clinical now, but simply to "mozartean" or "handelean" if you like... that's coming from the Jeff-Rowland Power and pre. Normal... And I like it but as these speaker are to the transperent side, if I feed the system with a more analytic source I get highly detailed with all the bells and whistles but still a cold sound.

CJ on the other hand has a Wide, bodied, harmonically rich prolonged tone... and so many other adjectives that I normally resume to wood and wine (RED obviously! :D)

But didn't go through with it as I thought it could have an abnormal gain to use with a DL-103+A23 SUT.

Making it short, do you honestly believe croft can cup with my rig and what I'm looking for.

Buying stuff over the net without hearing it first hand really sucks... it's like playing on the lottery at an expense... you can end-up having to sell it and loosing money.

What I'm considering doing is buying the A23 SUT (or the Luxman 8020 SUT with AD 8000 adapter - also hard do find) and go from thereafter to a series of carefull listening to several phono stages.

But there was another option that I was very curious, and that is the Jeff Rowland Cadence.

Any of You know the Cadence? I've read marvelous things about it and have a guy with who I exchange a lot of emails that as a rig similar to mine and is also a Dipole, especially Ribbon, lover (That tells me a lot on what are is tastes), and says great things about the cadence phono stage.



The cadence as basically a SUT inside made out of Jensen trafo's. But it's then "plugged" in a solid state RIAA MM phono stage.

In a way I think I would be quite fine, especially in terms of synergy with my pre-amp, with the Cadence but might, might, not gain a little more wood and wine from the sound...

It's a hard call...

What are your thoughts?

Oh, by the way.. No one replied on the collar issue. Can you clarify?

Thank you.

[Marco]

Hi Jonathan,

Just to answer a few of your questions...

First of all, the Shuggie collar is a total 'no-brainer', and unquestionably should be used with ALL Jelco SA-750s, so buy one with confidence!

As for the apparent 'incompatibility' between the DL-103SA and the A23 SUT, I agree that this appears to be the case, electrically, but all I can say is that, in practice, that simply doesn't apply, as when I used that combination it sounded superb. I also know of others who've used said combination, and achieved similarly superb results.

Therefore, I honestly wouldn't worry about it - the A23 will sound excellent with the SA. However, there are other SUTs to consider, which if necessary, I can recommend.

In terms of the Croft phono stage, it's difficult for me to make comparisons between it and the CJ, Luxman or Jeff Rowland items you mention, as I have no experience of using the latter. However, what I can say with confidence is that Croft equipment punches way above its weight, sonically, in terms of price.

Therefore, you cannot judge it by its price tag, as it will compete with, and often outperform, equipment that is MUCH more expensive, simply because Glenn makes sure that the money is spent where it matters, 'under the hood', and not on marketing or maintaining a 'brand image', or on fancy casings - and so Croft equipment is what it is: devices designed simply to reproduce music to a very high standard. The phono stages especially are exceptional, as they reflect Glenn's ability to get the most out of vinyl replay, without breaking the bank.

Furthermore, what I can also say is that the combination of a Technics T/T with a Jelco SA-750 tonearm, Denon DL-103SA/A23 SUT, through the moving magnet all-valve (hard-wired) Croft phono stage, is sublime and should provide you with one of the most musically enjoyable sounds you've ever heard from vinyl. Croft equipment is for those who buy with their ears, rather than their eyes, and the whole range has been designed to give maximum 'bang for your buck'.

How you proceed from here now is up to you! :)

Marco.

[NRG]

The A23 uses Lundal transformers as far as I understand, I use them in my phono stage but they are internal...work great with the SA, R or standard 103. K&K audio sell kits using these transformers if you fancy a bit of DIY. Others good SUTs are the Cinemag 3440 and the Sowter 9580 but you'll have to mount them in your own enclosure. The AU 300 may be worth checking out as well. I have a feeling you'd get the best out of the above when used with valve phono stage rather than a MM SS stage.

[Marco]

The A23 uses Lundal transformers as far as I understand...

Are you sure about that, Neal? I suspect not... My information is that they are Haufe T-7883s. Keith Aschenbrenner, the designer of the A23, is known to favour their sonic signature, which he considers as a synergistic match for DL-103s.

Marco.

[neskor]

A23 is using some custom made Haufe transformers, not Lundahl.
Check the picture ;)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/neskor777/2013-12-21175123_zps2221250e.jpg

[Marco]

Yeah, I thought they were Haufe... Lundahls don't look like that. Thanks Nebojsa :)

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Those are certainly not lundhal!

I don't recall where, but I've read that the A23 is built with custom Haufe T-7883s with some internal resistances do do the coupling with the DL-103.

Being able to change does to adapt to the load profile of the 103 SA/R could be quite interesting.

As anyone done it? Some vishay film resistors might fit in there :D

[NRG]

No I wasn't sure! Must be getting them mixed up with something else...

[Marco]

Perhaps my ST-80SE? That has Lundahls in it :)

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

So the latest...

Finally I have received (not a fault from the vendors but from the person who was bringing me in the goods) a bunch of stuff.

So now the status is (all to be mounted)
New cart mint DL-103SA
Heavy weight counter-weight for the Jelco Arm
Jelco SA-750D
AudioTechnica AT-LH18/OCC Headshell
Isonoe feet (black anodized finish) w/ subortane boots and glass discs
Arm plate for 750 from Greek ebay'er (nice finish but worried that it won't work with shuggies mounting collar)

Will be ordering soon:

Shuggie mounting collar
A23 SUT
Bruil weight

Next steps....

Start mounting
Decicion on phono stage

Afterwards decide if should I go first for:

MNB and platter but... Uffff... EXPENSIVE!

Or Paul Hynes PS... And then again... Ufffff.... EXPENSIVE STUFF!

Most likely I will only go for those after having the 1210 singing.

Comments?

The phono stage is giving me a hard time...

[Marco]

Hi Jonathan,

Nice one - glad all your 'bits' have arrived safely! Yes, I wouldn't even think about doing anything else in terms of a PSU, or even a phono stage, until you've fitted all of the above.

Then get used to how it all sounds for a least a couple of weeks, during which time some fiddling/adjusting/fine-tuning will no doubt be needed. Once you know what's doing what, and whether you like it all, then you can think about the next stage of upgrades!

Enjoy and keep us posted of progress :cool:

Marco.

[AlexM]

If the Greek eBayer was f1 sport, then yes, Shuggie's SA750D collar is a perfect fit.

Also, why not go the DIY route for the PSU? I think you would get a very large percentage of the benefit of a 3rd party PSU for next to nothing, and then re allocate your funds towards a platter or bearing if you are so inclined after using it for a while.

I am very, very pleased with my DIY PSU!. Paul Hynes regulators and PSU are first class, but diminishing returns need to be considered and I think there are other priorities.

Regards,
Alex

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi Alex,

Yes I bought it from F1 sport! That is good news then. But let's see if shuggies new collar design as the same diameter as the old one. Nevertheless that is good news. Although I do like DIY taks... I have so little time free for myself that normally things get left behind.


I've thought on going throughout that route... Doing the DIY audio PS. I have the utmost confidence that Paul Hynes PSU is outstanding... But so expensive! I have my doubts that the money invested on the PSu will have the same return in terms of sound. Normal on hifi.... But it really is expensive for a power supply.

What I might do is put the original PSU out of the 1210 and put it outside. Afterwards look for a kind soul that would lend me a PH PSU so that I can have a listen to it and judge if I should loose love of my euros to invest on the PSU.

Still a lot a things to spend money on :D

[Tiff_Needle]

Found a rather extensive article on SUTs

Interesting... Thought I'd share with you


http://www.vinylengine.com/step-ups-and-mc-cartridges.shtml

[AlexM]

Hi Alex,

Yes I bought it from F1 sport! That is good news then. But let's see if shuggies new collar design as the same diameter as the old one. Nevertheless that is good news. Although I do like DIY taks... I have so little time free for myself that normally things get left behind.


I've thought on going throughout that route... Doing the DIY audio PS. I have the utmost confidence that Paul Hynes PSU is outstanding... But so expensive! I have my doubts that the money invested on the PSu will have the same return in terms of sound. Normal on hifi.... But it really is expensive for a power supply.

What I might do is put the original PSU out of the 1210 and put it outside. Afterwards look for a kind soul that would lend me a PH PSU so that I can have a listen to it and judge if I should loose love of my euros to invest on the PSU.

Still a lot a things to spend money on :D


Hi,

Yes, externalising the existing psu as shown in the DIY PSU thread is pretty quick and easy.... only a couple of hours work and very few pounds. I have my doubts as to whether such a high grade regulated psu us justified on cost/benefit grounds until you have seen to all of the other costly areas. A cheap diy job will get you a long way, believe me!. I honestly think it did more for my turntable than the Jelco, or at least an improvement of a similar magnitude - it's that good!.

Regards,
Alex

[Tiff_Needle]

Anyone here with first hand experience with the fi yph phono stage?

[Tiff_Needle]

Here's a review - http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/fi3/yph.html

[Tiff_Needle]

Been looking at a Denon HA-1000 HeadAmp....

Any experiences here with it paired with a denon DL-103SA? How would it stand against say the A23 SUT?

In terms of phono stage matching with the HA-1000, any suggestions considering my initial remarks and current system (look at the initial comments).

Thanks

[Tiff_Needle]

Just pulled the trigger on a Denon HA-1000 HeadAmp to work with my brand new DL-103SA.

Hope it sounds good but a shame that I don't have a base of comparison.

It would be nice if someone could lend me on of these days an A23 SUT do to a direct comparison.

But before that I have to mount all the pieces and start getting familiar with this new setup.

I'll keep you posted.

[Tiff_Needle]

Last stop -> phono stage

Eeeerrrg... Hadn't a clue on how much did a certain phono stage cost,that I've liked for some time now from past experiences on audio shows and so forth, up until now! Wow!!

Talking about the BAT VK-P10se! Holly cow... So expensive! Guess I'll have to scratch this one from my wish list...

[Tiff_Needle]

Off topic:

Interesting sale http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?t=103158

Should be interesting with the 1210 with some mono records. The Jelco 750 is probably not the best fit for this cart... If it were, it would be a tempting purchase!

PS: I'm not related in any way with the seller!

[Tiff_Needle]

Coming back from the dead...

I have to choose a phono stage for my setup.

Any thoughts on ear 834p for my setup?

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi guys,

Still looking for a phono stage for my system... :.(

It's been a tough call.

Summing up, the status is (all to be mounted):

New cart DL-103SA
Heavy weight counter-weight for the Jelco Arm
Jelco SA-750D
AudioTechnica AT-LH18/OCC Headshell
Isonoe feet (black anodized finish) w/ subortane boots and glass discs
Arm plate for 750 from Greek ebay'er
New shuggie mounting collar
Bruil Weight
Denon HA-1000

------------------------------

My current setup is composed by:
Jeff-Rowland Model 6 w/ BPS-6 Battery power supplies - power amp
Jeff-Rowland Synergy IIi - pre
Monitor Audio PL300
Digital side of the system is irrelevant for this discussion (it's anyway under revision)
-----------------------

Some of the phono stages I've considered up to know, to which I'd like to have your opinions:

Leben RS-30EQ
EAR 834p
BAT VK-P10se
Croft RIAA
CJ EV1
Audio Note M3
Fi YPH
Icon Audio PS1

[Andrei]

My first point of call would be to contact Firebottle and see what he can make for you.
A couple of weeks ago I heard an ifi iphono work with a Denon DL103 and that made for a great sound.

[MikeMusic]

I have a Whest .30r for sale, haven't got around to telling anyone !

Great box and only outclassed by a much more expensive Aurorasound VIDA

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi Mike, and do you a have price tag for it?

Please PM me.

Thank you

[MikeMusic]

Hi Mike, and do you a have price tag for it?

Please PM me.

Thank you

Hi Jonathan

2 PMs sent
Did you get them ok ?

Mike

[Tiff_Needle]

Quick update.

Just got myself a ear834p deluxe.

Time to get my 1210 spinning.

Just need to figure out what to to with the 1210's power supply.

[Tiff_Needle]

Summing up, the status of the analog rig is (as incredible as it might seem, all to be mounted):

New cart DL-103SA
Heavy weight counter-weight for the Jelco Arm
Jelco SA-750D
AudioTechnica AT-LH18/OCC Headshell
Isonoe feet (black anodized finish) w/ subortane boots and glass discs
Arm plate for 750 from Greek ebay'er
New shuggie mounting collar
Bruil Weight
Denon HA-1000
EAR 834p (with mullards 12AX7/ECC83 - currently looking for some telefunkens and Siemens)
------------------------------

I want to start to play with all this pudding, but still feel that I should swap the 1210's power supply before I mount everything and hit play.

Been reading about the Paul Hynes PSU, and I feel quite interested with what I've been reading, that is as if Paul's reputation wasn't enough ;), but there's a problem, or should I say two or tree..

For one, although I know my way around electronics & DIY, unfortunately at present date, I really have no spare time nor patience to do into some more hardcore mods.

So first of all I'd like to know if any of you could recommend me on how could I arrange for someone to do the service for me (external PSU with internal mods)?

As mentioned I live in Portugal, but I have a relatively easy way of accessing to the UK market, as I have relatives that live in the UK and come to Portugal quite often.

Do you know if I could for instance ship my 1210, with only the strictly necessary parts on it, to Paul Hynes to do the PSU upgrade? Is there any one of your confidence that you would recommend?

Next, which PSU, which internal parts an which cables (in a plug & play fashion, 101 newbie language as if I knew noting of what you guys here at AoS discuss ;) )?

Having this PSU mod overcome, I believe I will finally spin my table and leave the remaining upgrades (eventually the MN bearing and platter) to rest, for a future stage.

Need to start listening to this humble fellow, ASAP!

Many thanks to you all for your guidance & support, and a special BIG THANK YOU to Marco for all the help he provided with the import "hussle" of the HA-1000!

I'll leave the

[Andrei]

Paul Hynes? His reputation goes worldwide and I guess that must be for a reason! Many happy campers on AOS with his work. Another option is the LongDog Power supply available from MCRU. I went for the audiophile version and am happy with that. It comes with instructions, but you can take your TT to a qualified electrician together with the instructions. It will take about half an hour.

[Marco]

Hi Jonathan,

Nice to see you popping in again, and I hope you are well :)


Been reading about the Paul Hynes PSU, and I feel quite interested with what I've been reading, that is as if Paul's reputation wasn't enough ;), but there's a problem, or should I say two or tree..

For one, although I know my way around electronics & DIY, unfortunately at present date, I really have no spare time nor patience to do into some more hardcore mods.

So first of all I'd like to know if any of you could recommend me on how could I arrange for someone to do the service for me (external PSU with internal mods)?


First of all, you've made an excellent decision to upgrade the PSU, as MN bearing and platter aside, that's what your T/T is now crying out for. The Longdog Audio PSU is reputed to be excellent, and I don't doubt it (as I know the designer well and also his capabilities), but I haven't heard one on my T/T, so can't comment on its efficacy.

However, I use the Paul Hynes SR7 (Paul has similar abilities, when it comes to PSU design), together with the regulator modules, and I can confidently recommend that combination as being superb, veritably taking the Technics into the high-end performance arena.

Since you have family in the UK, the process for carrying out the job would be reasonably straightforward, and Paul is 100% trustworthy, so you have no concerns on that score.

Simply ship your T/T to Paul (when you PM him, he'll give you his address), with just the bits necessary for him to do the work, and ask him to return the T/T to your UK address, once it's been fettled, along with the SR7 PSU. Paul answers his PMs pretty quickly on here, so just liaise with him, regarding what you want done, including all the necessary arrangements for shipping.

Easy peasy! :)


Many thanks to you all for your guidance & support, and a special BIG THANK YOU to Marco for all the help he provided with the import "hussle" of the HA-1000!


No problem, my friend, that's what we're here for. If you have any further queries, just ask :cool:

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Wanna get me some of that phono-litz thing running here.

What's the ultimate combination in your opinions? Not looking for any budget compromises in this case.

Yannis Tome 423.5 Phono Silver-Litz tonearm cable with Furutech CF-DIN(R) and Eichmann silver Bullet Plugs? Most fitted distance in your view? 0,75?
I have enough room to move things around.

Read a lot of good stuff on this... Curious to try it out. I was going anyway for a furutech. It would be to run it with my Jelco SA-750D. Do you know if Yannis does an RCA-RCA with the same cable?

As I'll be using an headamp and then afterwards the ear phono stage, it would be good to have the same run in the chain, intead of my Audioquest Emerald or my DPA Deltec Black Slink

[Canetoad]

I use a Yannis Tome 423.5 Phono cable on my Techie connected to a Jelco SA-750D and it sounds great! I don't use the Furutech DIN plug but have a Cardas instead. The Furutech was a bit too expensive at the time I bought it. Something I can upgrade in the future I guess.

IMO it's a great combination! :eyebrows:

Yannis also does RCA/RCA cables in this format as well. Haven't used them myself but others on this forum have with great success.

[CageyH]

The MCRU supplied LDA PSU is an easy fit. You only need to solder one connection, and there are clear instructions here on this forum.
I am wondering what difference a higher spec PSU really makes. It has to be an area of severely diminishing returns, after all it's not in the signal path.

[Tiff_Needle]

Hey, thought on at least share with you a few fotos of my techie

1395713958

[Tiff_Needle]

In another angle with the gorgeous Rowland preamp!

By the way, I have on stupid question.

Using the Denon HA-1000 with the EAR 384p stage and Denon DL-103SA, I should choose which options on the HA?

MC24db or MC36db? 100kHz cutoff or not?

13959

[Marco]

Hey, thought on at least share with you a few fotos of my techie

1395713958

Looks good, Jonathan! However, you've made one fatal error... You're still using the Technics rubber mat, which is a serious no-no :nono:

I recommend that you change it at once for an SDS Isoplatmat/Funk-Firm Achromat combination, or Trans-Fi Resomat, (the first to damp the platter from ringing, and the latter to interface with the record itself), which will combine to release much more music from your T/T, and transform its performance accordingly! :exactly:

However....... If you're planning on replacing the Technics platter soon, with a Mike New ETP, then live with the rubber mat until then, and simply buy a Resomat to place on top of the Technics rubber mat, as the Isoplatmat will become redundant when an ETP platter is in use (essentially because there will be no damping required).

The Resomat will also be effective in conjunction with the ETP, therefore that can be retained and put to good use.

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Thanks for the advice Marco.

I'm actually holding this due to the fact that I'm considering going for a MN platter in the future.

[Marco]

No problem. However, the purchase of a Resomat will make a considerable difference, when used with the Technics platter (and rubber mat), as well as work well with the Mike New ETP platter, when you get it, so it's somewhat of a no-brainer :)

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Hey there,

Just to let you know on the latest consequence of the upgraditis sindrome.

I have a Nagaoka GL-602 Crystal Turntable Mat on it's way home :D

Apparently I'll be the first receiving the new version of the Crystal Mat.

Next stop, ETP Platter + bearing or PH PSU!?!? Decisions, decisions...

[aniki]

Apparently I'll be the first receiving the new version of the Crystal Mat.

Tell us more. I thought the 602 was discontinued some time ago...

[Marco]

Indeed. Good result though, Jonathan, if you've managed to get one. IME, they're the best mat to use with an ETP platter, by some margin! :)

Marco.

[Tiff_Needle]

Hi guys... wow this Nagaoka GL-602 bring some hight to the table!

I'm still with the original plate.

How should I put it, on top of the rubber?

By the way, what's the weight that you reccomend for the counter-weight?

I'm using the DL-103SA with a AT-LH18/OCC with a Jelco SA-750D with the higher mass counter-weight