View Full Version : Steve's next turntable journey Pioneer PL-71
Magna Audio
15-05-2009, 16:26
Well it arrived today - handy having taken the day off.
Got it going in short time.
Used the Technics headshell as the one that came with it looked like the cheapo I had with my first decks back in the 70's and in fact the 33 PTG is too wide for them - I know a Sumiko headshell would be a worthwhile upgrade but firstly how does it look?
http://inlinethumb43.webshots.com/234/2340859560071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2340859560071997495EawTLA)
http://inlinethumb56.webshots.com/42359/2252173960071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2252173960071997495UPvaor)
http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/42044/2189043020071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2189043020071997495lXuZxa)
How does it sound?
Well divine in all truth - no other word for it. It is everything Richard aka Gromit (who was round at my place a while back) said it would be.
He is so much better at writing down what the lugs are hearing - guess it's being a pro musician...
It's so musical and rhythmic - makes you want to tap your feet and listen and listen. Even Mrs Speedy said the same thing.
Anyway.
Next to clean it up and re-cap it. Get that Sumiko headshell - can't see my getting a SPU anytime soon though...
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60672
The more I look at that arm, the more like a Rega R200 it looks - and that latter arm was always supremely musical to listen to (can't wait until I can afford to get mine re-wired)..
The lateral balance weight should face downwards I think, although it's appearance guiding this comment - Rega used to fit some thick sleeving on the rod and all but jam the weight up against it to minimise vibration...
Enjoy.............................. Regarding caps, does the deck malfunction? I appreciate its age, but Japanese components at the time were rather longer lasting as I recall. Obviously, RD and possibly gromit wil have done this already, but if it aint wrong, don't balls it up is my motto after decades of doing just that!!!!! :D
P.S. The AT cartridges don't seem to "drive" the headshell (I'm getting little to no "handling noise" with my Dual 701/OC9 surprisingly) and arm like many lower compliance cartridges do, so the shell you're using should be ample for now I reckon.
Looks gorgeous. I'm old enough to remember lusting after one in Lindair on Tottenham Court Road (close to Laskys). I also remember looking at the Technics SL-120/1200 brochure that came in my dad's Scientific American around that time. I never would have believed that I would own one some 37 years later.
Looking great, Steve - nice one!
The wood finish on the PL-71 adds a touch of class, and like Dave says, the arm is so like an R-200 (Lustre) it's unreal. The latter, IMO, is one of the reasons why the PL-71 sounds so musical. I don't even think Richard (Gromit) realises how influential the tonearm is in its overall sound...
You just can't judge a Techy with a bloody (modern) Rega arm! Listen to one with a Jelco or SME and it's a different ball game ;)
We'll have to have a D/D bake-off sometime so I can get to hear what all the fuss is about with the Pioneer :)
Marco.
I have plans for my SL150, getting a SoundSupport Rega cut plate for it with three extra holes for the Kenwood arm and usefully for the R200 too. The Kenwood's chuck assembly may not work with the recessed Techie plate (similar size and style to the 1200 plate but with four fixing screws in a different place), but the R200 should be fine as-is.
A question. The R200 has a plastic spacer which may be better with the Technics metal arm plate possibly. Audio Origami (Jonny) made a metal spacer for the R200 he re-furbished which looked really good IMO. Any thoughts guys?
Magna Audio
15-05-2009, 20:02
Well, it's got the SL-1210 and the Parallel air arm licked for cohesion.
This is both my DIY version and a real Terminator BTW.
I think there is more tweaking to be done with the air arm.
Need to lower the air rate and dampen that blade more - perhaps a silicone sealant bead on it?
The SL-1210 / air arm does bass deeper but the PL-71 is a more musical bass.
Quite an achievement when you look at it.
The mat is stiff plastic with only a few contact rings but it just works.
Not tried a thick felt or rubber mat - somehow I feel it in my bones that it won't be so good - might be wrong though.
Missus likes the wood too.
I wonder how Terminator would be on the Pioneer.
If you want to lower the air pressure to absolute min then you need to use ally angle and saddle that is highly polished, I use my pump on the min setting with this. Big difference in air pressure.
Magna Audio
15-05-2009, 21:51
I currently wet and dry'd the saddle / manifold to 1200 grade - could polish.
Had a look under the PL-71 hood - all very clean apart from a light spiders web.
Gave the moving parts a clean up.
Caps look like any other modern electrolytic.
It might even benefit from a signal and power wire recable to some better spec and the power diodes are, well, not in modern Hexfred league I am sure but this is not an amp in the signal path so will leave as is since it is working so well.
More listening on some varied stuff has revealed what a good all rounder this is. It just likes all sorts of vinyl. Stuff that has irritated me a little before or sounded a bit thin sounds flippin' marvellous.
I know Gromit and co. did a bake off - LP12, PL-71, SL-1210 which is written up...
It's a top quality deck, Steve, and would disgrace most so-called 'hi-end' modern T/Ts - use it and enjoy it accordingly! :smoking:
Some people still appear to be slaves to their 'fruitbox' prejudices and fail to 'get' just how good turntables like this are compared to most of the bollocks made nowadays at any kind of an affordable level.
Yes, I believe that Gromit did do a D/D bake-off but if I remember correctly the Techy was either an unmodified one, or one which had only been lightly modified, so not really conclusive in terms of ascertaining its inferiority to the PL-71 or otherwise.
I'd like to do a D/D bake-off using my own 'fully-optimised' version to represent the Techy with also Scoobs' DP-80 and Mike's DP-3000 Denons. Would you like to take part and bring your PL-71 along to represent Pioneer? :)
I simply must hear one of these PL-71s, because if it outperforms my 1210 (given what I've done to it), it'll outperform any 1200 or 1210.
The truth must be discovered...
Marco.
Magna Audio
15-05-2009, 23:05
I'd be up for that depending on where.
Yes think the SL-1210 in that bake was standard - arms and the rest make a hell of a difference.
I've just been listening on the Stax and compared some mats.
On the phones I prefer the thick rubber mat to the Pioneer hard plasticy one.
Deeper bass and nice balance. Could be wrong on the amp and speakers but I doubt it.
Also looked at the manual for it. The lateral balance should be 20-24mm out and centre of gravity is set by it's height. Trying it low now. The overhang shuold be 14.5mm - that's exactly what the OL Rega arm set up card I used has given it...
Beechwoods
16-05-2009, 06:47
I love the look of that TT - the wooden finish gives it real class. That must have been a real high-end player in Pioneer's range. I've not seen one like that before (not that I'm an expert! ;)).
The deck is especially beautiful, very much something that gels with furniture and real rooms.
If you get around to putting a Terminator on it it'll be interesting to find out whether the existing arm is adding something to the sound that makes you like it the way it is or whether a (probably) more "accurate" arm is a step backwards or forwards for your ears.
The looks of a Terminator on such a deck may clash but you can't be sure until you try it. A Terminator will tend to suit the looks of Techie more as it's more technical looking, form follows function kind of look.
Clive, I can't see how adding the Terminator wouldn't add something very positive sonically, but aesthetically, it would be akin to putting the Mona Lisa into a clip-frame: some things you just don't do... ;)
'Classics' should always be improved on sympathetically, if 'improved on' at all.
As an aside, I've just read this rather thought-provoking comment on pfm (where this thread is being linked to) in reference to the LP12:
Quite a lot of people who love their LP12 (and I love mine, even if it's not my first choice and is gathering dust at the moment) find that when they listen to more modern turntables they say they sound "flat", "clinical", "lifeless." The SME decks often get this abuse. Probably because they are better, and don't add anything.
A record player should play at the right speed (including drag), preferably more than one of them, be level, introduce no vibration whilst doing so, limit external vibration, provide a flat and stable mounting for an arm that can be likewise free of vibration. And nothing else.
Hear hear! A most interesting observation and one I concur with wholeheartedly; indeed I've said this many times before. If you like how the LP12 (and some other 'low-mass' belt-drives) colours the sound, that's fine, but don't call it 'musical', because it isn't...
Marco.
I agree with the above, but with an addition...
When I had my Linn chip installed back in 1982 :D one of the things we were shown is how well the LP12 could hold a run of notes, unlike the Rega 3, which tended to smear them together by comparison. The Lp12 was also good at "playing tunes," which sounds ridiculous, but to someone like me who usually sings along with the music (and follows the sequences on mid-seventies Tangerine Dream......) it was a revelation.
My session with Ivor and Charlie Brennan (now head of Arcam) was with the then new rep for Naim - Paul Stephenson, who's come a log way to the top of Naim's tree - and his then wife, Sally, who started the Chord Company shortly after.
By comparison, an inappropriately sited and supported Japanese direct drive really would have sounded flat, two dimensional and lifeless by comparison. The best balance of virtues at the time coming from the likes of the big EMT decks, which apparently sounded very musical, clear and "rhythmic" in a "true" sense to the master recording.
Once the late eighties came around and I'd been exposed to the wonderful qualities of Notts Analogue decks, I came to question the whole Linn "thing." Richard Dunn has been most emphatic about the damage caused in the eighties, but I tend to take a slightly different stance myself. The better quality supports that had become available benefitted the UK issue "direct drive" era decks no end and with better cartridges, the best of these showed what they could really do. Fortunately for the club scene, Technics still had the tooling to continue with large batches of the SL1200mk2 and once ken Kessler (HiFi News) had been genuinely surprised by a "gold" 1210, the deck's future as a truly valid HiFi source was assured.
Remember though Marco, that the 1200 series available today has substantial rubbery loading inside to attempt to add mass and damp out vibrations. My SL150 and its brethren are empty inside, apart from the motor and switching, although the 150 coped better for some reason...
I've heard the SME 30 and also the 10 and found them very precise in sound. The 10 had one of the dull, "analogue" and coloured Ortofon MC's fitted (one of the Kontrapuncts) yet still the precision came through, the Lingo'd LP12/Akito 2/10XV sounding messy and bland by comparison (I hate the Akito with a vengeance and the LP12 had been carefully set up). The 30 was lovely, but not at that price (three times the cost of an NAS Dias, another wonderful product IMO).
lastly, LP12 lovers have a wonderful excuse for any negative comparisons with other better turntables - the LP12 setup is wrong! Maybe in the early eighties, but not today.........
I simply must hear one of these PL-71s, because if it outperforms my 1210 (given what I've done to it), it'll outperform any 1200 or 1210.
:)
It would be interesting sometime to hear a 'heavyweight' solution of Jelco 750 with Denon 103 or Shure M3D like yours, compared with a 'mediumweight' solution of Jelco 250 with AT33PTG like mine, based on the 1200. I would love to hear the different emphasis and how they compare into the same phono stage.
I suspect that your 1200 and mine are otherwise at a very similar level of modification.
Dave,
By comparison, an inappropriately sited and supported Japanese direct drive really would have sounded flat, two dimensional and lifeless by comparison.
Perhaps that would have been the case, but there's no *automatic* reason to presume so without listening first and comparing. And even if that were definitely the case, then it's rather blinkered to assume that the same would be true now.
It's this ingrained and dogmatic absolutism some people have that gets me. Just because they once heard a Jap direct-drive turntable sound 'flat', 'two dimensional', or 'unmusical' once in 1978, or whenever, doesn't mean that today’s decks suffer from the same problems, especially with the fantastic modifications which are available now for the likes of the 1200/1210 that transform it into a genuine 'hi-end' contender and makes many of today's designs sound fundamentally broken.
The PL-71 was largely 'right' from the off, in terms of its genuine 'hi-end' credentials, (plus it was never modified for the DJ market) and so requires less tweaking than the Techy in order to compete at the highest level today.
Some people need to take the blinkers off, open their minds (and ears), do some listening again, and leave their old prejudices behind where they belong. I think some are scared they might get a shock. I guess there's nothing more unsettling than having your long-held and deeply-ingrained beliefs shattered!!
Martin,
You're absolutely right. Your deck has been modified to pretty much the same level as mine - the only slight thing being you haven't got the KAB threaded clamp (although you have a record clamp), the effect of which is significant but not *massive*.
"Heavyweight" vs. "Mediumweight" - I like that!
I too would love to hear the difference in presentation, both sonically and musically, between your deck and mine in the same system. Perhaps that's something we should do at some point soon? You would be most welcome to bring your deck to any forthcoming bake-off that is arranged :)
Marco.
Marco, the huge problem in the UK was that Ivor shouted loudly, VERY LOUDLY in the mid to late seventies and in the UK at any rate, the better direct drive models ceased to be imported. Also, because many non-Linn dealers didn't feel turntables affected the sound so much, and because so many high-compliance cartridges were still being used in the UK, decks like the PL71 were sidelined and discontinued before they could even begin to get a foothold, as they weren't too happy tracking V15's, 681EEE's and the better Empire models for example. The only direct drives that thrived were the Technics ones, plus a couple of others (JBE, Sony PS8750/Micro DDX1000 etc and we sold a good few direct drive Duals like my 701). We were selling plenty of ADC XLM's, AKG P8ES's, Micro Acoustics and were among the first to savour the Fidelity Research, Dynavector and Ortofon's updated MC's.
I have actually compared quite a few turntables with the Linn over the decades (since 1976 in fact). In the early days, the LP12/Grace 707/Supex 900E didn't veer too far away from neutrality, the heavy platter and well sorted suspension giving the deck some more isolation than many of the popular direct driven decks. Most of the jazz-rock LP's from this time didn't have any bass on them to speak of (I'm playing a good few right now) or the upper mid was boosted to give more attack (another story, another thread). The audible comparison of above Linn combo with a Techie SL150mk2/arm and cart of choice usually gave the Linn a little more "expression," although a BBC engineer found it a bit "cupped hands" in colouration compared to his beloved EMT system.
As the years went on and the Ittok appeared, the LP12 went to pieces, the bass going all over the place. Over the next five years, Linn, to be fair, worked incredibly hard to get the plinths better, glue the sub-chassis and change the arm-board. The bearing was improved too. By the mid eighties and the large corner fillets on the plinth, the LP12 had stabilised into a much easier deck to deal with. There was still too much vagueness in the sound and having ballistic cartridges like the Karma, Troika and the truly dire Klyde didn't really help over-much. Naim then came along with the ARO and 'Geddon and in a stroke the LP12 was back to 1977 in a good way - light, fresh with loads of "texture."
To summarise my essays above, I really would say that the best direct drive models, like many solid-plinth decks really need a sympathetic support to work at their best and minimise acoustic feedback, which many of them did all too easily. I should also add that the difference in "sound" of these decks compared to the LP12 were never huge, fifteen minutes of constant comparison and they all sounded the same to me.............
P.P.S. is it just the Dual 701 motor or do any of your DD's need some running to "warm up?" Mine needs an hour or so and the whole soundstage opens up and reverb seems clearer. This is irrespective of system this deck has been used in... When switched off, the power supply is totally disconnected.
Magna Audio
18-05-2009, 09:31
The PL-71 had some speed stability problems - quickly diagnosed as something to do with the 33/45 speed change switches.
Fiddling with them I could induce speed change and then fix it - leaving it and listening it wandered off on its own every now and then.
Others say they have recap'd the PSU and motor board where necessary - only a handful of 10p components (standard values) so no hardship.
I tried some switch cleaner spray - no dice…
Pulled out the two micro switches and low and behold neither was giving constant closed circuit - moving around by quite a few ohms.
Hard wired her up so that the power was permanently on and only the 33rpm pot contact was made - perfect pitch and no fluctuation at all. Pot adjusted the speed nicely.
Maplin do exact replacements for the micro switches (standard part) for £1.49 so off there on Sat pm for them, the caps & two 1Kohm pots (speed adjusters) just in case - spend £6.50.
Home and fit. Duh, no power. I read the positions of the contacts wrong. Put that right and then checked her with the platter off as she was still upside down - hmm only rotates the spindle 1/4 or 1/2 turn at a time? Dooh - had I buggered up the motor PSU or control board by shorting the two control wires by mistake on the speed micro switch? Can't have I thought - there was no juice cos' the power one was connected wrongly (open circuit) or was there?
Had a poke around and could see nothing wrong with the voltages. PSU made stable 19.5V DC. Speed controllers made around 18. something and 16.something V. It was late and I went to bed not to happy :-(
Sunday morning, put the Techi deck and parallel arm on for fun while trouble shooting the PL-71.
The Techi / parallel arm is very precise and clean. It shows the music all bare. I tried loading up the carrier with another 36g (another carrier angle piece on top of lateral mass). That made the bass MEGA and a little less top endy. Ran out of time on different weight choices.
Back on the PL-71 I read the voltages off again - still the spindle doing it's 1/2 turn thing. Aha the speed control voltages are mV not V - even less likely to have fried anythign then... Read the meter wrong when was tired the night before.
By passed the micro switches again as before - still no change. Thought what the hell have I done? Turned her over and whacked the platter on in dis-comprehension.
Perfect 33 1/3 RPM. So the motor is supposed to only fire every 1/2 or so turn :-). I am a DD TT newbie Muppet.
Put the switches in properly this time and ALL is well. Have power on/off and speed change and NO fluctuation.
Put the 33 PTG cart back on the PL-71 and gave her a spin.
Aha less precision and more charisma, character and charm. Very musical and timing is great.
Now I am being very honest here and admit that the Techi deck / parallel arm is stunning in it's way... and the PL-71 does things a bit differently. Which one, you prefer is down to ones ear of course.
Might try loading the headshell / adding more mass to the counterbalance as there is def something in getting the arm mass balanced with the cartridge compliance.
I don't understand the maths - but lugs will out.
i_should_coco
18-05-2009, 09:38
The SP10 does the motor spinning jerkily thing if you leave the platter off. Basically the missing weight buggers up the servo operation. There's a warning in the manual about not doing it, so it ay not be good for it. Steve, you should pop round!
Magna Audio
18-05-2009, 11:15
Promise not to run it without the platter ever again...
Yes I must pop over Piotr - name a date...
I need to hear those GRF's of yours... I've got Steve Clarke coming over on
Sat for a listen of the Techi / air arm and of course the PL-71. He's not heard my DPA Enlightenment either - much to catch up on.
You would be welcome over too.
The Dual's the same - run with patter off and it "kicks" two or three times per revolution.
The arm, if it's anything like the similar looking Rega R200, is what contributes to the "musicality" I reckon. That, and the solid plinth. You may find that the AT33PTG may just prefer a lighter headshell compared to the heavyweights tried on here - the imagery should be almost holographic with an AT.
Magna Audio
18-05-2009, 21:55
The Dual's the same - run with patter off and it "kicks" two or three times per revolution.
The arm, if it's anything like the similar looking Rega R200, is what contributes to the "musicality" I reckon. That, and the solid plinth. You may find that the AT33PTG may just prefer a lighter headshell compared to the heavyweights tried on here - the imagery should be almost holographic with an AT.
Others have said it looks similar to a Rega but then others have said it is not - can't recall where / when...
I tried a headshell mass inc of 3g and that was terrible. Put it back quick - ah lovely...
Sumiko and Achromat should arrive tomorrow - mini Christmas all over again:)
Magna Audio
23-05-2009, 20:09
No Sumiko headshell yet but the Funk Achromat 5mm mat did arrive.
A mate of mine came around - well into his vinyl and we had a test session.
To cut a long story short we both preferred the original Pioneer mat to the Funk one! Not what I expected at all.
We observed that mats do make quite a big difference to the sound.
Mat swapping is so easy to do compared with most other hifi component or part comparisons.
The Funk one made gave more body to the music. Slightly deeper bass and a slightly darker tonal experience.
Piano notes (take Oscar Peterson's Night train) did not trip off his box (that roxs) in so lively a fashion as the Pioneer mat could deliver.
There is a delicacy & subtlety to the presentation / tone of the notes using the Pioneer mat that could not be matched by the Funk.
Right, comparison of construction.
Funk mat - 5mm thick seemingly hard all the way through, pretty rigid composite material.
Pioneer PL-71 mat. 5mm thick. 3 groups of 4 individually raised rings. Hard rubber / plastic with upper surface with slightly more tactile rubber base.
Still pretty rigid compared to the Technics SL-1210 mat for example.
We tried a thick Rega? felt mat (also 5mm). That just muddied the sound - off with that pronto.
So my mat upgrade did not happen.
However on some pretty tinny recordings - The Who's Tommy or The Door's for example I preferred the slight dampening effect of the Funk mat.
For all else and we listened to stuff from Joni Mitchell to The Band, UFO to Chris Rea, Melody Gardot & of course Mt Peterson we both preferred the PL-71 mat hands down.
As for the deck in total - my mate was very impressed. So much so he said he would be looking out for one instead of upgrading from his nice Project deck / carbon arm to a Roksan something or other!
Hope the Sumiko headshell does better. I bet it is the SPU I fall in love with and have to sell the missus to get one:)
Pics
PL-71 original mat
http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/45069/2002268050071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2002268050071997495lhUxer)
Underside
http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/45574/2549950920071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2549950920071997495ZbwwQL)
All in the grooves? - hmm this baby needs a good clean!
http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/43721/2455318190071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2455318190071997495nYEuvV)
Edge
http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/24902/2723470470071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2723470470071997495uXfwBG)
Funk Achromat
http://inlinethumb57.webshots.com/42296/2816166230071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2816166230071997495SfweiF)
http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/36054/2206321370071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2206321370071997495hGngFL)
Edge
http://inlinethumb56.webshots.com/36279/2946579630071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2946579630071997495hMLdSr)
....To cut a long story short we both preferred the original Pioneer mat to the Funk one! Not what I expected at all.
Yep, been there as well...done that and got the T-shirt! :) I found the same with the Lenco, Garrard, SP10, SL120 etc....what I did find though was using a combination of the original mat and another one (as long as you can get the VTA correct) gave a slightly better sound. All good fun!
Guys,
It's possible that Pioneer voiced the PL-71 with their own mat, or at least factored its effect into the equation, which would explain the results you've got. It strikes me that the PL-71 is a very 'sorted' design.
As far as SP10s and SL-1200/1210s go, I believe Guy's copper mat outperforms the stock rubber mat by a significant margin, and the Sound Hi-fi (Herbie's) mat does the same on the 1210 compared to the original mat.
Steve, you might want to try a Herbie's on the PL-71 just to finally make sure that the stock mat is the best. In my experience, the Herbie's outperforms most other mats I've used, so you never know. It would be good just to 'put it to bed' once and for all, as it were :)
Marco.
I second the Sound Hi-Fi (Herbie's) mat recommendation. I was shocked at how much better it sounded than the stock rubber, Isoplatmat or felt mats I tried on the 1210.
Magna Audio
24-05-2009, 18:57
Had a look on the Sound hifi site. There is one for the SL-12xx and one that is not priced yet - Is it the SL-12xx one or? I will contact them for guidance.
Re: the mat perhaps being tuned for the PL-71 - This could very much have been the case. they probably had a whole dept (back in the good ol' days) working on getting it just right.
Honda had a whole site just for switch gear. Not sure if they can still afford that now.
Magna Audio
25-05-2009, 09:07
Thought I'd post this up as it sums up what we heard but in another's words.
"I was explaining the rubber mats to me bro yesterday evening while we
were walking to the pub, also the Stax can being the best I've ever
heard.
I said to him it was the Band's Brown Album that really did it for me.
The whole sound was hung together so perfectly.
The Technics is a very good experiment to see how an arm like that
will sound but it did lack the , I would say, emotional quality and
not all together there on reflection. I was trying to explain it to
the bro but failing as it's a feeling thingy. However. the Pioneer is
a truly wonderful TT and worth every penny.
I was also trying explain about the Oscar Peterson Night train and
how the piano keys lightly tripped off of his fingers with Pioneers
own mat, where as the sound got thicker and leadened with the
Funk. But then I told him about the Who track and how the Funk
tamed down the jangly guitar.
Crazy, crazy, crazy but fun all the same."
The SP10 mat is listed at 250 quid! And the 1210 at 90 quid, the price is buried in the text.
This stuff, cut to size and used in conjunction with the original mat works rather well.. ;) :eyebrows:
http://www.practicalsurfaceware.com/p/ShopByProduct_Non-Slip%20Accessories/CB5.htm
Magna Audio
25-05-2009, 20:00
The SP10 mat is listed at 250 quid! And the 1210 at 90 quid, the price is buried in the text.
This stuff, cut to size and used in conjunction with the original mat works rather well.. ;) :eyebrows:
http://www.practicalsurfaceware.com/p/ShopByProduct_Non-Slip%20Accessories/CB5.htm
I take it that you have used this on the SL-1210
That's interesting - you never know quite what config of materials will work for what deck. Might give that a go...
One cheap mat I liked on many decks is the NAS Spacemat, which seems like a thinner version of the Funk one.
The Japanese didn't "listen" to their decks back then as we Linnies did, but more often than not, used careful measurements and technology to great effect on the better designs, getting good sound by engineering rather than tweaking an otherwise ok design. If the Pioneer mat has two grades of rubber on the mat, then some serious work would have gone into its design I suggest. The insides are solid and the plinth isn't an outer chipboard shell either. Perhaps its success is an accident, but I'm glad it's a goodie.
There should be enough pics of the R200 on the internet, but to show the basic similarities of the two, I can take and post pics of mine as it is, before I get it sorted.
P.S. I think this is another rare one in the UK, but the Sony PS8750 sounded really fine to me as well
Magna Audio
27-05-2009, 22:56
Got it today and fitted it. Nicely made bit of kit. Like the leads.
Its about 2.5 -3g heavier than the Technics shell it is to replace.
Not sure that was going to the what the 33 PTG ordered when I worked it out. It may suit a battleship Denon 103.
When I tried fitting the extra 3g mass Technics supplied to the Techi shell it sent everything basswards.
So, I've had a listen and it's ok. Need more time with it yet to say for certain.
Everything was to light on its feet before - hope I have not lost any of that.
Pic to follow.
Hi Steve,
How are you getting on with it all, mate? Let us know :)
Marco.
Magna Audio
31-05-2009, 15:23
Was just about to write something to update on the headshells.
As an aside I've been doing a boot sale or two and have come up with some really nice vinyl. Record cleaner essential though...
Right headshells.
The Sumiko is reported to weigh in at 12g. Inc leads and screws my digi scales make it 13.5g
The Technics headshell on my scales inc Sumiko leads (nice) and screws is 9.4g.
That's a 4g diff! So more 1g than the 3g weight I bunged on to try heavy.
The extra weight does not suit the Audio Technica 33 PTG it must be said.
The sound got rather lifeless and well for want of a better word 'heavy'.
We perhaps not heavy but it lost that light trippy feeling and what someone else described the 33PTG as possessing - an almost holographic sound so involving is the sound stage and depth.
Now I'v not heard a top flight Denon 103 on the heavy weight shell so can't perhaps that would top it - who knows?
One day Gromit will come round with the SPU - and perhaps his 103 as well, so I can find out.
Music wise, I got a copy of the Frank Sinatra and Company - I just love the sound and production. This one has childhood memories of my parents playing it in the early 70's on a Garrard.
That copy is now long gone - I got one from the States. The vinyl is in ex condition.
Sounds just amazing. So much better than the CD I bought in Dallas back in 1995, it is unbelievable.
Other goodies that play really well / give me goose bumps are Oscar Peterson Trio - Night Train (already mentioned that one). Saw a copy of that at the boot sale this morning.
Keith Jarret - Koln consert (got AoS John (the purveyor) to thank for that one... Still looking for Nick Drake - Five leaves left BTW).
Roxy Music - Avalon and of course Dire Straits / Communique (both albums on certain tracks).
Also found some of the alignment protractors of Vinyl Engine very useful.
+ this one http://www.enjoythemusic.com/freestuff.htm for initial set up.
So, as for TT's, shells and mats I will just use the PL-71 with Technics shell now for a while.
So, Steve, how's the PL71 experiments coming along?
The mat on my one is crumbling away so I'm using a Technics one at it seems to work well in combination with a cork mat on top. I've knocked up a new PSU / regulator board for the deck but have not had enough time for a good A / B listen. I've ordered new arm wiring and now have new phono leads from Maplin to fit...I'm hoping all this will make the deck better than standard without loosing too much of the character...
Magna Audio
10-07-2009, 11:44
Sounds good NRG. Like to hear that PSU... i have a similar system on the SL-1210 I bought. That is 20V I believe.
I measured my PL-71 at closer to 20V. I've lent my scope at the moment so no chance to look at PSU noise.
I've just been using mine for the past month or so without any major changes.
Shame about that original mat:doh: It has almost magical properties on the deck for lightness of touch and musical appeal. I would think the Archomat I also have is closer to it than the heavy Techi rubber - I also have one of those oh and a Rega felt one.
Tried them all of course...
I am going to the two bake off's on PF.
1st one is Richard D's PL-71. 2nd one I've got a place on it for my PL-71.
I had a great session round at I_Should_Coco's. He's SP-10, SME and very fancy cart, tube and 15" Tannoy like me.
Coming home the PL-71 did not disappoint me.
I will be very interesting to hear all these decks back to back (admittedly on unfamiliar ancillaries.
That will be taking up all my hifi time for the next couple of weeks.
Other than that, I have been buying lots of vinyl. Net / bootsales / charity shop. Got some lovely ex / ex+ stuff I've been wanting.
I have fiddled with most things over the last year including PSU mods, and I have gone back everytime to the original. Some things were marginal but most made it worse. This turntable is the best synergy I have come across.
If you are using old carts like I am SPU / DL103 / M3D you need extra mass on the tonearm, but I was lucky to get - 'struth forgotten his name - to do me extra arm weights on his lathe before he packed it in for personal reasons. Does anyone else do a bespoke service?
Anyway see you tomorrow.
I'm now running with some 1.1A sckottys and I've also fitted the a captured phono cable and plugs - all from Maplin. To say this has made a difference would be a huge understatement! It's a big difference to my ears, can't say if its the new diodes or the cable but its much much better...the character has changed and you may or may not like it...for me it's moved in the right direction...better detail, texture, more define bass lines etc. Glad I did it.
Good luck with the bake off Richard, have fun guys.
Indeed have fun, people :)
Steve, could you do a write-up of the event please for AOS, preferably with pictures? :cool:
Marco.
If you are using old carts like I am SPU / DL103 / M3D you need extra mass on the tonearm, but I was lucky to get - 'struth forgotten his name - to do me extra arm weights on his lathe before he packed it in for personal reasons. Does anyone else do a bespoke service?
Richard, I think you mean John (a.k.a 'Thrunobulaxx'). Yes, it's very sad what happened there.
J7/Audio Origami, if he's not too busy, can provide the same service. Failing that, I also know of someone else just as good :)
Marco.
Magna Audio
14-07-2009, 12:13
Having seen a couple of the TT's at the Epping back off with them I decided to make one. Well Personified's cost something like £160 if I remember / heard correctly [shocked smiley]
I_should_coco's was not quite as much as that but still in the 25 2nd hand LP's range.
I had a NAD clamp in the early 80's - can't say I could hear it making any difference on that system.
Time to update and try again...
The basis for my clamp is an old steel pulley wheel I got in a box of bits with my 1940's Southbend lathe. It is just the right diameter / height. Was a bit light at 700g.
I melted some ex wheel balancing lead weights / poured into the base and then polyester resin filled it to make a sealed unit. That brought it up to the 1000g I was looking for - Is this too heavy? Mr Coco mentioned his was in this region.
Can always machine out a bit If it is.
The centre hole was a bit of a challenge I could not get a perfectly true grip of it in the chuck (long story my larger piece chuck jaws are not very good) so abandoned drilling or machining out in favour of centering the puck with a larger hole drilled right though, around the spindle of my record cleaning deck.
The spindle and centre inch of rubber mat was smeared with Vaseline and then I poured resin in. Let it set and this morning I had a perfectly spindle sized/centred hole.
A bit of Plastic padding to fill in a few pockmarks and it will be ready for trimming the base with felt. Hope to listening test it tonight if it works well / i like it spray finishing tonight.
Will post some pics of the finished article later.
More to follow.
Very inventive Steve. I'm always a little concerned about the main bearing thrust pad with record clamps that rely on weight, 1Kg is quite a lot of mass to add...
I like the look of the Souther Clever clamp (http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/Record-Clamps) but have never tried one so don't know how effective it is...
Magna Audio
14-07-2009, 14:31
Yeah - I to am kinda thinking 1kg is a bit heavy. Will try it first as is and then perhaps make another at 0.5kg - this is where most of the commercial ones seem to be weighing in at.
I will check with Mr Coco and Personif and see what theirs really weigh.
i_should_coco
14-07-2009, 15:15
The Micro-Seiki ST-10 is pretty much exactly 1kg according to my kitchen scales. :)
Clearaudio put a Souther Clever clamp in the box with all new turntables, so I tried it,
not impressed , it didn't have much grip and there is no weight to it. I use a Michell clamp.
Magna Audio
14-07-2009, 19:49
Well, I started out with 1kg - seems too heavy. Think I can see the edge of the record being pushed up as the weight goes on - nope not think - I can...
This depends on the type of mat I guess - Mr Coco's copper mat has a very slight dishing for the label and that is it. My beloved PL-71 mat has a bit deeper recess I think and only 4 sets of rings the inner ring being only a single 2mm wide or so band.
Popped the lead out - now 700g. Tried again.
Test tracks Melody Gardot - My one and only thrill.
Hmm like some of what the weight is doing - vocal a bit more focused - daughter (13 yr old ears) said vocal was clearer / more to the fore.
Some of the brush work seemed less airy and with less feeling though. Not sure what it is doing to the rest of it - like them both in their ways.
Next stop a test on a 0.5kg weight.
per-Sony-fied mailed me saying his super duper puck was 315grams. He chose that weight for his LP-12 having tried a few others.
Magna Audio
14-07-2009, 22:03
Made one that comes out at 457g.
Did some listening on the same album but on the Stax this time.
The puck takes away some of the airy emotion on the vocal. Not sure I can accept that. The rest is pretty much similar. Odd.
Regarding the bending of the record - I put my dial gauge on the lead in edge and low and behold a 180g record moves up at the edge by 0.02mm. This was with the weight at 750g.
Tried it at various places on the record to eliminate the effect slight warping might have - same result.
Have not tried the test the lighter puck or on a boggo thin disc.
Ah well - off to bed now...
I've been trying an outer record weight to flatten some of my LPs ,still not sure what I
think of it yet.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a158/markf_pfm/outer2.jpg
Magna Audio
15-07-2009, 09:17
Yep I've seen / heard those in use. I can help thinking on the PL-71 it would deaden the sound / remove emotion.
That's been the effect of both the Funk Achromat and the centre puck.
Need to test some more on speakers but I think they will confirm what I heard
on the Stax...
As with the Funk mat tests I did some of the tinnier recorded stuff - Tommy Thw Who and early Beatles for example might actually benefit from a bit of deadening / calming down.
That's the evenings entertainment lined up.
Magna Audio
19-07-2009, 17:28
I've done it at last - Put the Air arm on the PL-71
http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/42667/2997951600071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2997951600071997495otAoeG)
http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/43019/2208982290071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2208982290071997495TkYdsZ)
http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/44875/2660703920071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2660703920071997495xbQpAo)
http://inlinethumb41.webshots.com/43176/2323975820071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2323975820071997495CrMIsG)
The results are really rather good - sort of best of both worlds - PL-71's musicality + parallel air accuracy and lack of tracking distortion.
Will live with it for a while and see.
Magna Audio
04-08-2009, 23:06
Time moves on and I get bored.
After nearly 2 weeks I put the PL-71 arm back on again.
This arm definitely has it in terms of musicality. It will be on for quite a while now I think.
Fun thing is with all the TT stuff. My nearly 16yr old daughter wants one.
Well I have a Rega P3 / RB250 OL modded arm / AT MM cart all ready to go for her!
Hi Steve,
Nice to hear from you again :)
Now that is interesting, given all the 'hoo-hah' surrounding the Terminator. I still rate it as an excellent (although fugly, to my eyes) tonearm.
However, synergy wins the day again... The PL-71 and its stock arm were quite simply designed to be used together to form a 'musical whole'. With a turntable, just the same as anything else in hi-fi, it's the sum of the parts not the talents or otherwise of individual components that counts.
Incidentally, have you been following my Tannoy thread? Tomorrow I'll be posting the final thoughts on my journey and comparing Reds to Golds with stock and modified crossovers, which you may find interesting :cool:
Marco.
Dave Cawley
05-08-2009, 06:37
The Terminator is reviewed in this months Hi Fi World.
Dave
twelvebears
05-08-2009, 07:24
....I still rate it as an excellent (although fugly, to my eyes) tonearm.
Nooooo, it's not ugly! It's fantastic, in a this-is-what-it-would-look-like-if-Brunel-made-a-tonearm kind of way. :)
LOL, Steve! I guess, as they they, beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;)
This is my kind of 'sexy' tonearm (and deck!):
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6524/48283304.png (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/48283304.png/)
:exactly:
I hope to have one very like it soon.
Marco.
chris@panteg
05-08-2009, 11:18
Hi Marco
You know you always were going to have an SP10 ' just look at it a piece of engineering art ' i am sure this would be the turntable ' Brunel ' may have wanted but i still find it a tricky choice between the SP10 mk2 and the LO7D ' then there is the P3 exclusive .
StanleyB
05-08-2009, 11:22
I have always felt that the SP10 sounds its best with the matching Technics EPA-500 tonearm. I am not sure why most SP10 owners don't seem to have the EPA-500 fitted. If it is due to not being able to get hold of a EPA-500, just send me a PM. I got a few;). And eBay prices are astronomical.
Stan
Ammonite Audio
05-08-2009, 13:05
LOL, Steve! I guess, as they they, beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;)
This is my kind of 'sexy' tonearm (and deck!):
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6524/48283304.png (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/48283304.png/)
:exactly:
I hope to have one very like it soon.
Marco.
Oooh! A hammerite finished headshell! Very tasteful:lol:
LOL - Indeed :eyebrows:
The Lumière cartridge fitted to it is 'not bad', though!
Have a look here:
http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2008/09/lumiere-dst-cartridge-extraordinaire-or.html
... but the above are only phisical trivia: what a cartridge like Lumiere DST gives to music is a sort of miracle!
Like an handmade instrument, it nears the listener to the music, letting music to flow in a freer than air way seldom experienced.
... and this makes me wonder: will a Lumiere be my very last cartridge? Who knows?!?
... but I got some spares, just in case... really, can't imagine myself without this relaxed, musical, transparent, soul-infused Sound.
Indeed. It is a rather special cartridge - and fitted to an equally rather special T/T and arm :)
Marco.
EPA-500? An EPA-150 would be nice for me, complete with mounting plate ;)
Magna Audio
07-08-2009, 14:36
I am hoping to get a Spu on the PL-71 arm - Will have to buy one I guess.
Does anyone know of dealers/suppliers who have demo carts for trials? - perhaps asking rather a lot but a Spu is not just for Christmas is it...
Cartridges are something that NOONE used to lend out, unless it was to a very well known client we trusted...
Richard Dunn may be able to offer assistance regarding a listen. My own experience of old SPU's is that they have a powerful and very "meaty" bass but with marginal tracking, which may be better with modern suspensions and stylus technologies. If you've heard and loved an M3D/N21, you'll probably like it a lot, although the Shure tracks better than elderly SPU's do ;)
To be honest, Ortofon introduced the SL15 series because they felt they could better the then elderly SPU design. It's that old steam engine thing again IMO..
HiFi dave has a SPU on dem I think and can compare with more modern designs of high quality into Tannoys, Harbeths and decent valve gear (EAR, Puresound and Croft last I heard)......
Magna Audio
07-08-2009, 22:06
Thanks.
I have heard Richard's Spu / PL-71 recently.
I really need to hear one on my system - Will contact Gromit again...
Magna Audio
13-08-2009, 19:44
I got around to changing the pitch trim pots and the 8 caps on the motor control board. the imbedded four 4.7uF ones were a right pain but patience and care and it's all done and it now sounds better than ever.
Surprising what getting the speed right does to the music.
New caps on motor control board
http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/42957/2371769110071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2371769110071997495eIfwZI)
New pitch pots and previous done switches
http://inlinethumb34.webshots.com/29409/2894148730071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2894148730071997495wWVUMT)
What does Richard suggest for lubing the spindle and bearing thrust plate?
Hi Steve, same caps as I changed....did you also do all the PSU one's as well inc the ceramic? ...I did but still found my pre-tracking PSU was better than the original...
I replaced the oil in the main bearing with the Panasonic / Technics SL1200 stuff, seems to be OK ...I've also read EP80 works well....
Magna Audio
14-08-2009, 10:31
NRG: I replaced the Electrolytics but not the ceramic. Was not aware that that one would get tired? Can easily replace it and it will be a discrete update so I might hear a different.
Could you give more details as to how to change the oil - was that the 12,000 mile service? :)
David Price
14-08-2009, 15:30
hmmm - why all this fuss about the PL71?
It was a highish quality mid seventies DD with elementary speed control, a strongish motor, an average bearing and a decent but resonant S-shaped arm; all solid mid-price Jap fare from that period, but nowt special!
The really clever one was its replacement; the PL600X (PL120 in Japanese market); costing £230 in 1979 it had even better build with an independently sprung subchassis, all metal plinth, beautifully crafted tonearm, etc. Quite a lot better than the '71, IMHO, and likewise the SL1200. One to look for...
http://twitpic.com/duwnc
Errr... Are you sure about that, David? It looks a bit 'plasticy' to me :confused:
Marco.
P.S Looking forward to getting the 'SL-1210MP' (with DL-103SA) review done and dusted... :)
Should be interesting!
David Price
14-08-2009, 16:22
...there's barely a single piece of plastic on it Marco! It's all cast alloy, even the underside on the base which is of course rubberised plastic on the SL1200. It's as well built as an SP10/II; I kid thee not! Even the arm feels like an Ikeda, although sadly it's not detachable like the SL1200. So the best tweak that can be done is to have it rewired...
The 'ermm it looks plastic to me' reaction is what's keeping second hand prices down - I bought my last one for £26! Long may that continue...
Fair enough, David - you'd know as you've seen it in the flesh :)
My bet is that it'll still pale into insignificance compared to the mighty 103SA-equipped 'Marco-boy' SL-1210 - be afraid, my brothers, be very afraid...... :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
14-08-2009, 16:59
According to the service manual the arm plate is held in by 3 screws; Jelco here we come?
Dave
Beechwoods
14-08-2009, 17:11
Fair enough, David - you'd know as you've seen it in the flesh :)
My bet is that it'll still pale into insignificance compared to the mighty 103SA-equipped 'Marco-boy' SL-1210 - be afraid, my brothers, be very afraid...... :eyebrows:
Let's hope that no-one argues with you Marco, seeing as it's your birthday and all :lol:
Did I mention that it was my birthday? :scratch:
Marco.
Dave Cawley
14-08-2009, 18:12
Hi Marco, my friend Avril Lavigne is not taking any calls right now, otherwise she would have sung especial for your birthday.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xnTLQtPqViI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xnTLQtPqViI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
So Al had to stand in.
Happy Birthday mate!!
Dave
Beechwoods
14-08-2009, 18:38
Did I mention that it was my birthday? :scratch:
Marco.
Just once or twice :lolsign:
David Price
14-08-2009, 19:46
happy birthday Marco!
Can't wait to hear the SL1200 MP...
Oh dear Dave, so the "Pioneer PL600 DC" awaits us?
What are we going to call the Gyro? Can we name it after the initials of your cat?
Re PL71. Have you tested one David? The arm, if it's anything like the Rega R200 which is so similar in many ways, would actually be a quite well behaved example of the type and even Martin Colloms thought it (the R200) was ok and pretty good sounding. Not having a fancy servo is fine in the pre-Quartz era, as long as the torque is adequate and overshoot minimal or non-existant. The plinth is pretty solid internally and not just a chipboard shell as many were.
Anyway, alternatives in the far east are all very well, being as getting one over here would be a very expensive process methinks..
David Price
14-08-2009, 21:20
Hi DSJR - yes, I have. A critique; quartz lock is better than no-quartz lock; easily demonstrable on a deck with switchable quartz lock. That's the first point against it. Second is the plinth; there's no serious attempt to isolate it from the outside world, and no clever use of materials (a la Lo-7D) to deal with the vibes - unlike the PL600 (and later Pioneers with 'coaxial' suspension, as they called it). Third, it's a middling motor - good but not special - and a middling bearing. Basically it's a decent, well made, mid-price Jap DD from the pre-Quartz Lock era.
An SL1200 is several steps above, and the later PL600X, PL-L1000, etc., are miles better. I'm not saying it's a bad deck; it isn't; it's just nothing special. Kind of like a Trio KD550, Sony PS-4750, etc. of that era. A nice thing, but in engineering and design terms pure straight-down-the-line conventional mid-price Jap DD - the t/t equivalent of a Honda Accord. The Technics decks of that period were better made, so I'm just wondering why everyone's talking about the Pioneer PL-71 all of a sudden?
I'm afraid to say I do speak from some experience in this matter; I lived in Japan for seven years, during which time I bought just about every Jap DD ever made (usually from charity shops for under Y5000 (£25)). As I said, the really clever thing - what really pushed Pioneer ahead of the crowd - was the coaxial suspension, and that didn't come until two years later than the PL-71.
Don't want to be rude about the PL-71 - it would kick a Project or suchlike into the dirt in build quality terms, but it's madness that they're going for big money on eBay (or whatever). It seems the net is full of 'urban legends', with lots of repeated "wisdom" from people with little or no practical hands on experience, and it's a bit weird how it spreads. Maybe this is a good idea for a feature?
Personally, I'd do as Marco did - get that SL1200 and tweak it - a great sounding deck that's not full of no-longer-available components and will last forever. An amazing bargain considering the performance that £250 (lightly used) buys you...
My two cents!
I'll shut up now, sorry for the rant!
Magna Audio
15-08-2009, 18:41
The reason why everyone's talking about it is because a few souls who have had nice LP-12's or SL-1200 or whatever else and thought them very good have tried the PL-71 and liked it a lot.
3 of these people I have met and 2 of them I have heard their turntables against other TT's.
It's perhaps down to what you listen for.
My SL-1210 (DIY PSU and off deck transformer) sounds detailed & dynamic, spot on speed but it doesn't boogie in the way I want it too - that musically right sounding aspect. That's what I listen for.
The standard PL-71 does that in spades.
Perhaps the Sl-12xx would/does if many more bucks were spent on it (arm) but the deck is the deck. Gromit went a bit of the way but could not see the point - neither can I.
My comparisons are with the same arm / cartridge / phono stage in my own home.
In spite of some problems with compatibility my phono stage output at the recent 8 deck turntable bake off and problems with it's recording digitally clipping in Audacity you can hear the nature of the decks and I like the way the PL-71 sounds. Some of those decks were VERY expensive (I mean ££££'s decks that were there, LP12, EMT, Rega etc). Just shows money isn't everything and PL-71 did not disgrace itself at all. I was disappointed by the way it sounded in that system but that's down to the way the whole thing sounded rather than the deck.
I would need to hear them over a good period of time to evaluate them properly. A short bake off is not the way to me.
I'll look out for the PL600X. It sounds interesting. If I get one and it's better then fantastic!
Hi DSJR - yes, I have. A critique; quartz lock is better than no-quartz lock; easily demonstrable on a deck with switchable quartz lock. That's the first point against it. Second is the plinth; there's no serious attempt to isolate it from the outside world, and no clever use of materials (a la Lo-7D) to deal with the vibes - unlike the PL600 (and later Pioneers with 'coaxial' suspension, as they called it). Third, it's a middling motor - good but not special - and a middling bearing. Basically it's a decent, well made, mid-price Jap DD from the pre-Quartz Lock era.
An SL1200 is several steps above, and the later PL600X, PL-L1000, etc., are miles better. I'm not saying it's a bad deck; it isn't; it's just nothing special. Kind of like a Trio KD550, Sony PS-4750, etc. of that era. A nice thing, but in engineering and design terms pure straight-down-the-line conventional mid-price Jap DD - the t/t equivalent of a Honda Accord. The Technics decks of that period were better made, so I'm just wondering why everyone's talking about the Pioneer PL-71 all of a sudden?
I'm afraid to say I do speak from some experience in this matter; I lived in Japan for seven years, during which time I bought just about every Jap DD ever made (usually from charity shops for under Y5000 (£25)). As I said, the really clever thing - what really pushed Pioneer ahead of the crowd - was the coaxial suspension, and that didn't come until two years later than the PL-71.
Don't want to be rude about the PL-71 - it would kick a Project or suchlike into the dirt in build quality terms, but it's madness that they're going for big money on eBay (or whatever). It seems the net is full of 'urban legends', with lots of repeated "wisdom" from people with little or no practical hands on experience, and it's a bit weird how it spreads. Maybe this is a good idea for a feature?
Personally, I'd do as Marco did - get that SL1200 and tweak it - a great sounding deck that's not full of no-longer-available components and will last forever. An amazing bargain considering the performance that £250 (lightly used) buys you...
My two cents!
I'll shut up now, sorry for the rant!
Thank you David, a very fair critique and at least you've tried one yourself... Not a rant at all IMO, just putting the facts straight according to personal experience.
A certain person has made huge store by this turntable and I'm sure it's quite acceptable overall. I worked for a dealer who sold many Technics decks (until the LP12 supposedly blew them away - a subject for another thread again methinks :))
As I've said elsewhere here, I owned an SL110/SME for a year or so and replaced it with my first LP12 in late 1976. ten years later, our London shop was getting many old techies in for cartridge upgrades/stylus replacements etc. and a trusted colleague was genuinely surprised how well these decks responded to careful siting and a broader minded attitude.
I'm way behind, as i've only just been given an SL150 for nowt. On a simpler and very much cheaper scale, I look forward to seeing just how far this old deck can be taken. It sounded very sweet with a Hadcock, although how this dreadfully finished and crude device can sell for several hundred quid is anyone's guess...
P.S. I can't wait for marco to bite the bullet and get an SP10. now that's one turntable that EVERYBODY seems to get goosebumps over.
P.S. I can't wait for marco to bite the bullet and get an SP10. now that's one turntable that EVERYBODY seems to get goosebumps over.
Oh, Dave, don't worry it'll be happening! I've just spent £12k on a new luxury bathroom, so unfortunately it'll have to wait for a little bit yet ;)
Marco.
FFS marco, get yer priorities right. You don't spend hours on the bog listening to music do you???? (Perish the thought :gig:)
Hahahaha... You've no idea how funny that is, Dave, because that's *precisely* what I'll be doing!! Well, not on the bog, but rather in the bath...
We've just installed waterproof bathroom speakers on the ceiling above our free-standing cast-iron bath, which will be fed from my system upstairs :lol:
So we'll be soaking up the suds and sipping vino (or champers) whilst listening to some Miles Davis, or whatever else takes our fancy ;)
Cool, eh?
Marco.
Oh, Dave, don't worry it'll be happening! I've just spent £12k on a new luxury bathroom, so unfortunately it'll have to wait for a little bit yet ;)
Marco.
Well what a sort of coincidence in reverse so to speak, I've just dropped mega £k on a new pair of speakers and am in the middle of a 6/8 week wait for them. Only problem, Mrs REM thinks we are having a new kitchen, wonder what she's going to say when she finds out, anyone with any ideas about how to break the good news?:eek:
Well what a sort of coincidence in reverse so to speak, I've just dropped mega £k on a new pair of speakers and am in the middle of a 6/8 week wait for them. Only problem, Mrs REM thinks we are having a new kitchen, wonder what she's going to say when she finds out, anyone with any ideas about how to break the good news?:eek:
Don't be a wimp, just act as if it's perfectly normal and justifiable to drop several £k on some hi-fi.
Don't be a wimp, just act as if it's perfectly normal and justifiable to drop several £k on some hi-fi.
Yeah but she's bigger than me and packs one 'eck of a right 'ook:)
LOL - sounds like my kinda woman, haha... Is she good at arm-wrestling, too, Ralph? :lol:
;)
Marco.
It's not in the slightest bit justifiable to sink several grand into a speaker these days IMO. Not when there is so much wonderful vintage stuff available for less than a couple of grand (how much were your Lockwood Major's Marco?). I've no sympathy at all ;)
how much were your Lockwood Major's Marco?
Hi Dave,
I originally paid £2800 for them fitted with 15" Monitor Reds, and those included high quality 'tweaked' crossovers designed by Chris from Big Ears. When I instead eventually settled for the 15" Golds, I got £300 back (as Golds are less expensive - less rare), so in the end the Lockwoods cost me £2500.
However........... I've since spent the thick end of a grand on some outrageously top-notch crossovers, using the best of modern components, but £300 of that was paid for from the 'refund' on the Reds, so the final figure is around the £3200 mark :)
Quite frankly though, thus modified, I'd put them up against ANY modern speaker today without too many worries ;)
There are some very good hi-end modern speakers around though, Martin's Ushers being a prime example (which I think are almost a bargain considering the material value and superb use of latest technology), but some of them are just outrageously priced, for little more than 'badge status', so if the highest SPPV means anything to you at all (this is definitely where I'm 'at' these days), going the route I took is much more rewarding - on a number of levels! :smoking:
Marco.
I appreciate the vintage approach, but bearing in mind your liking the SP100's, the one other modern avenue I would want to follow myself (given the money and space) would be the Harbeth 40.1. I loved the big ATC's when I had them, but as Ashley keeps reminding me how times have moved on, the Harbeths do seem to combine modern technology where it matters, whilst developing the incredibly well researched BBC ideals - the info papers published on the Spendor Yahoo Group site are very easy to read and very comprehensive as to what things did and WHY - no BS there...
Yes of course the vintage approach is as valid as any other but sometimes things just happen in such a way as to suggest that a particular path is the right way to go, if you see what I mean.
Earlier this year I bought a pair of new expensive speakers, Swiss precision engineering, great sound, design life of 20+ years and was very happy with them. A few weeks later I returned to the dealers' to pick up some new i/c's and there THEY were, newly in stock, bloody big things with more bling than this years' gansta rappa. "You've got to listen to these" says Dave (why are all hi-fi dealers called Dave?), something inside me said 'this is going to be expensive' and we sat down for a listen. Well, stone me, half way through the du Pre/Elgar concerto there was a resounding thud as my jaw hit the floor. This wasn't just an impressive speaker this was a (hi-fi) epiphany, a life changing event equal to that moment, 38 years ago, when I first heard real hi-fi (FYI, Tannoy lz111/Tandberg R2R/Big Jap receiver). Somehow my new speakers just didn't do it anymore, I was gutted, there was no way I could justify getting rid, the financial hit would be too much.
Well, fast forward a month or so and fate intervenes, one of my bomb proof, 20 year life span speakers goes kapputtft! Long story short, Dave does me a brilliant deal on the the bloody big blingy things and here I am waiting waiting and waiting for them to arrive and yes I just know I've done the right thing.
To finish, these thing are going to re-write my system and as they are very efficient (96db/watt) I might even be after a low powered valve amp in the near future, any suggestions???
Cheers:cool:
PS Talk about thread drift, this is supposed to be about PL-71s innit?
Ali Tait
17-08-2009, 17:01
What are the speakers Ralph?
Think 'through the keyhole', the clues are all there. They are BIG, very blingy, very very efficient, and they ain't British, hence the long delay in delivery. An extra clue for you, mine are going to be in the standard piano black but you can have them any colour you like...:lol:
Nah, Wilsons usually need a lorry-load of Krell before they lower themselves to rattle their cones-n-domes (not expensive in reality, but priced that way to add cachet ;))
Ushers?
Wilson?
Noooope, not that big and deffo not that expensive, not been around as long either. Another clue, they produce a cartridge as well....
Ali Tait
18-08-2009, 18:20
Oooh you little minx! Ok,so what country then?
The Wilson guess wasn't so far off the mark, these are from across the pond as well....
You gotta get it now....:smoking:
There are some very good hi-end modern speakers around though, Martin's Ushers being a prime example (which I think are almost a bargain considering the material value and superb use of latest technology.
I would hesitate saying they are great value, because they were undeniably expensive. However, compared with the likes of Wilson and Focal I agree with Marco that the Ushers are a hell of a lot of speaker for the money at half their price. I'm in awe of their ability!
Gosh, I'm wracking my brains on this one. The high efficiency suggests horns, the black finish points in certain directions, the source is (presumably) North America but I can't marry it up with a company that makes a cartridge too. Aaargh!
Hi Martin
No horns as such, but they have 10" paper coned main drivers and ribbon tweeters....
They have also just been the subject of a glowing review in a UK mag, for once the reviewer got it right:lol:
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