View Full Version : Old*"Hi End" Vs. New "Low End"
Hi guys,
Being a bit more into hifi stuff latelly, and now seeking to update all my system, would like to know your opinion on this..
Would an old "high end" av amp like the arcam avr350 or a primare spa21 (bouth suposed to be very good in stereo also) be better in sonic performances than a recently low end stereo like marantz pm6004?
Asking that because i would like to change my pm6004 to an av receiver, not losing in stereo performance, and not having to sell my car for it either :lol:
I will actually use it for 65% stereo, and 35% for sky box + films...
Any opinion will be higly appreciated.
Thanks
Audio Al
19-09-2013, 04:43
My opinion would be to buy the older kit , have it serviced caps replaced etc
Older hi fi equipment was built to a standard not a price
recent equipment ( excluding some brands ) is made to a price not a standard
The Outcast
19-09-2013, 04:51
I would have to agree.
My opinion would be to buy the older kit , have it serviced caps replaced etc
Older hi fi equipment was built to a standard not a price
recent equipment ( excluding some brands ) is made to a price not a standard
The best of past years' AV models from Denon, Yamaha and Rotel (especially this latter) should still be really good I think, even if they lack the ultimate bells and whistles.
Which is better will entirely depend on the loudspeakers and the amplifiers ability to drive them. Old or new has no bearing on the matter.
istari_knight
19-09-2013, 12:29
Rotel RSX-10**, Sony STR-VA555ES / STR-VA777ES & Denon AVC-A1SE are all good with stereo and the last two may even be an upgrade from your Marantz.
Personally I don't like Arcam's AV amps, pretty crummy IME until you get to the £££ one's... Nice DVD players though ! I've not tried the Primare but after owning their A20/D20 I would advise trying to listen before buying as they were very much style over substance.
The Grand Wazoo
19-09-2013, 18:21
You asked for opinions so please don't take this the wrong way, but why not ask yourself if you really need an AV amp?
What's wrong with good old stereo for your TV and film viewing?
I think that, given your 65% figure for stereo use, I'm surprised that you'd be happy to compromise the quality of sound you get there in favour of soundtrack.
Just a thought.
My opinion would be to buy the older kit , have it serviced caps replaced etc
Can you please extend?? Caps replaced are parts of the amp, is that it?
You asked for opinions so please don't take this the wrong way, but why not ask yourself if you really need an AV amp?
What's wrong with good old stereo for your TV and film viewing?
I think that, given your 65% figure for stereo use, I'm surprised that you'd be happy to compromise the quality of sound you get there in favour of soundtrack.
Just a thought.
Well, that's my biguest doubth, because i already had an av receiver and sold it to by a stereo one as i was not satisfied on his stereo performance, but now i think that it could be because it was just a low quality one.. It was actually good for movies, but not that good with music 2ch..
But i also miss the insigth i used to have on movies, and that's what makes me think on going back to av
istari_knight
19-09-2013, 21:48
Have you considered a Yamaha DSP-E800 ? If you can live with just having vanilla Dolby Digital 5.1 it will give you the best of both worlds & can be picked up for lunch money.
The Grand Wazoo
19-09-2013, 23:15
Well, that's my biguest doubth,
Yeah, I think you need to spend a little time with a high quality stereo amp.
I don't really understand why AV amps need to have any more than two channels. I find sounds coming from behind me distracting, whether that's at the cinema, or at home with the TV. I just don't want it.
Give me a 2.0 system using a good stereo amplifier and decent speakers of a decent size. Who has room for any more?
Audio Al
20-09-2013, 05:15
Can you please extend?? Caps replaced are parts of the amp, is that it?
If you have electronics repair and service shops in your country its best to ring them up give them the make and model number , Ask for a full service and test
Older equipment will need thing like capacitors changing , sometimes resistors and other items , also they would look for any dry solder joints , clean any volume bass treble balance rotary switches
Thorough clean inside , Bit like taking you car in for a full service ;)
Audio Al
20-09-2013, 05:24
I don't really understand why AV amps need to have any more than two channels. I find sounds coming from behind me distracting, whether that's at the cinema, or at home with the TV. I just don't want it.
Give me a 2.0 system using a good stereo amplifier and decent speakers of a decent size. Who has room for any more?
I had the same opinion as you Barry UNTIL I went into a HIFI / AV shop many years ago and was given a demo of AV
The salesman went through some dialog and the one thing he said that made most sense was " If an actor is talking to you where does the sound come from ? It would come from where he is standing , hence the center speaker also if someone shouts from the far right or from over the actors left shoulder again the sound would come from that direction
I then watched part of the film Top Gun , the part on the flight deck when the jets were taking off and banking hard right , The sound went from all left speakers through the center then to the right rear only , all VERY realistic , I can see the AV advantages with films but not with HIFI audio ,
Just my opinion other will be different ;)
It's a matter of priorities really. In my opinion AV surround and 2ch stereo systems should be completely separate entities for optimal results. Using an AV amp to perform both duties is always going to compromise accurate music reproduction. As your priorities seem to be geared, in the main, towards music, then unless you have plenty of spare cash to throw at separate AV and 2ch setups I would advise throwing most of the cash at the stereo system and perhaps buying one of those all-in-one surround sound Blu-ray systems that cost a few hundred Euros... :eyebrows:
Give me a 2.0 system using a good stereo amplifier and decent speakers of a decent size. Who has room for any more?
Me. I have a 2 channel system with decent sized speakers and an entirely seperate 4.1 channel AV set up. I agree you can get by wathcing films in 2 channel and with a lot of material it doesn't matter. As Al says, with action films it does add an extra dimension - who would want to watch the gunfight in 'Heat' in 2 channel?
If you have electronics repair and service shops in your country its best to ring them up give them the make and model number , Ask for a full service and test
Older equipment will need thing like capacitors changing , sometimes resistors and other items , also they would look for any dry solder joints , clean any volume bass treble balance rotary switches
Thorough clean inside , Bit like taking you car in for a full service ;)
Lol.. this is very interesting. Didn't even knew we could do check ups to an old amp :D
will investigate more about this, though i doubth i can find any place who can do it here..
Yeah, I think you need to spend a little time with a high quality stereo amp.
Yes, you are probably right, but than again, i think i would have to sell my car to have something like that :lol:
Have been checking some old stuff (like arcam a85) on ebay, but not sure if it would worth the money they ask for them. Most part of them i never heard, and that's what makes it so dificult :scratch:
Have you considered a Yamaha DSP-E800 ? If you can live with just having vanilla Dolby Digital 5.1 it will give you the best of both worlds & can be picked up for lunch money.
Never heard about this one, but looks interesting. Do you think it would really beat my PM6004 in 2ch performance, or you suggest it just as an upgrade?
I'm not actully so much in to the hd formats. A simple 5.1 dolby digital would be good for me if in addition i can get a good 2ch performance
Good quality of stereo need not cost a lot of money (plenty of old and new world choices) if you want to add surround you can always add the Yamaha as has already been suggested this would give you the best out of both worlds.
Lol.. this is very interesting. Didn't even knew we could do check ups to an old amp :D
will investigate more about this, though i doubth i can find any place who can do it here..
I will be in a minotity here, but I don't think that any old amplifier will necessarily be in need of service work or overhaul. If it works, it works and leave it alone!. I think that perfectionism drives people to preemptively start changing things 'just in case', but in most cases it isn't required unless a faut is apparent.
If you're buying from ebay and a second hand item is described being in perfecrt working order you always can return it if there is a fault. If it is in need of repair, then it makes sense to go over the amplifier to make sure that everything is working ok while an engineer is working on it, but again, I wouldn't start swapping out components randomly for the sake of it (unless you are into DIY).
With regard for old vs. new, it is simple. Depreciation is working in your favour, and inflation is working against new products as well. An older amplifier will have lost a big chunk of it's original price through depreciation. Nothing revolutionary has happened to amplifier design for 25 years or so, so there isn't really an obsolescence issue to consider (at least for stereo amps). In addition, a top quality second hand amplifier will have been designed and constructed to a higher standard and have better components than a new one at the same price point, or to put it another way, it would cost an awful lot more to build the same amp now because of inflation.
Cheers,
Alex
Clive197
24-09-2013, 16:24
You asked for opinions so please don't take this the wrong way, but why not ask yourself if you really need an AV amp?
What's wrong with good old stereo for your TV and film viewing?
I think that, given your 65% figure for stereo use, I'm surprised that you'd be happy to compromise the quality of sound you get there in favour of soundtrack.
Just a thought.
I absolutely agree, it's what I have done.
I have a great deal of experience with AV amps and as yet have never heard one that can compete with even a mid range stereo amp in ALL areas. That includes top models from Arcam, Pioneer, Denon and Onkyo.
walpurgis
24-09-2013, 16:39
Along with the rubbish, which has always been with us, there has been very good Hi-Fi equipment since the sixties (or before, some may say). Much now sought after as 'classic' gear (some undeservedly).
Apart from the very expensive more esoteric stuff, I doubt much of what's around today will achieve any sort of cach'e.
I generally stick with older gear. I'm no snob and if it saves me money to buy good used items, fine!
Really good imputs here. Thank you guys.
Have been checking on e-bay for some used gear, but it's always difficult because i would be buying blind :rolleyes:
Have seen today a Densen B110 going for 550£. Was that a good deal. I was really tempted to buy it, although it was way over my budget...
Spectral Morn
24-09-2013, 21:33
The best of past years' AV models from Denon, Yamaha and Rotel (especially this latter) should still be really good I think, even if they lack the ultimate bells and whistles.
Agreed get hold of a Denon A1se should be peanuts but stunning sound. Best sounding AV amp I have ever heard weight, scale and effortless dynamics. If you have something like an Oppo you can use the audio ins to gain the modern HD sound formats and if you use a good pre into it you can get pretty good two channel sound too. The power amps are good its the pre bit that lets the side down re music.
Regards Neil
The Grand Wazoo
24-09-2013, 21:35
Stunning sound, or stunning surround sound? What's it like as a hi-fi amp Neil?
Spectral Morn
24-09-2013, 21:49
Stunning sound, or stunning surround sound? What's it like as a hi-fi amp Neil?
I got mine for about £500 and it eats any two channel amp I have heard from new at that price, one could of course get a dearer two channel amp S/H for that or less but using an AV amp in the way I suggested - one of the older £2000 to £3000 models from say 6 years or so ago. Denon better than Yamaha, Onyko, Sony etc imho will make a good mixed set up if you buy a nice pre to use for two channel music.
However if you want just two channel and no AV aspect then a two channel amp will be easier to use and better.
Regards Neil
The Grand Wazoo
24-09-2013, 21:59
OK, thanks for that - my brain just doesn't seem to be impressed by multi-channel, with or without pictures. I've never wanted for more than a stereo system in any application, despite witnessing some AV systems that others have gone ga-ga over.
Spectral Morn
24-09-2013, 22:15
OK, thanks for that - my brain just doesn't seem to be impressed by multi-channel, with or without pictures. I've never wanted for more than a stereo system in any application, despite witnessing some AV systems that others have gone ga-ga over.
Hi Chris
Its how you use them that counts.
The cheap ones are badly compromised re sound in most ways but the dear super amps from years ago I have, have very stiff power supplies and good power amps. The pre section is compromised to an extent but use one direct and they are pretty good, but use a good pre into the power amplifiers and its a whole different kettle of fish two channel is then very good.
Like old PCs, AV amps that don't have the up todate bells and whistles have no value, hard to sell, so are very cheap. My Denon was well over £2500 new and I got it for next to nothing.
Of course like all things it depends what you want to achieve but if you want AV and two channel stereo its a very good way to go imho.
Regards Neil
Agreed get hold of a Denon A1se should be peanuts but stunning sound. Best sounding AV amp I have ever heard weight, scale and effortless dynamics. If you have something like an Oppo you can use the audio ins to gain the modern HD sound formats and if you use a good pre into it you can get pretty good two channel sound too. The power amps are good its the pre bit that lets the side down re music.
Regards Neil
never heard about this one either, but really looks like a good alternative. Where do i get one of this now a days?
Spectral Morn
24-09-2013, 23:02
never heard about this one either, but really looks like a good alternative. Where do i get one of this now a days?
You will have to look on Ebay
Regards Neil
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