Bybees

[The Black Adder]

Hi.

Does anyone have any experience with these little in-line widgets?

http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/pictures/bybee/main/bybee-slipstream-quantum-purifiers-01-224x224.jpg

A quick question I know... :)

Cheers

[sq225917]

A guy on diyaudio took one to bits and found there to be a zero ohm, Beryllium resistor from Huntingdon electronics inside, wrapped in some ceramic paper and sealed with black shit and using steel leadout wires welded on to the resistor. Measurements of the part found it to do exactly what a zero ohm resistor does- f_ck all. It adds the tiniest bit of inductance that has an effect up in the MHZ range. They found it did nothing down in the audible range and had no effect you couldn't get by twisting together two short lengths of wire (this is called a 'gimmick' electronics engineers twist wires to make small value capacitors with a little inductance rather than using actual parts).

Just because this guy has a patent on it doesn't mean it works as described in the patent. US patents contain no burden of working proof.

If you want to do something spend the £100 on acoustic room treatments.

[The Black Adder]

No fear, I was just interested in hearing what people thought of them, just thought I'd ask like. Very interesting that though Si.

[Clive]

You could say "buy Bybees and say byebye to your money".

[Marco]

Hi.

Does anyone have any experience with these little in-line widgets?

http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/pictures/bybee/main/bybee-slipstream-quantum-purifiers-01-224x224.jpg

A quick question I know...


A quick question naturally deserves a quick answer, so here it is: 'yes'.

;)

Marco.

[The Black Adder]

O.K

Ta :)

[Marco]

Don't you want to know what I think of them, lol?

Marco.

P.S I have ONE, installed at a critical point inside my Sony DAC ;)

[The Black Adder]

Don't you want to know what I think of them, lol?

Marco.

P.S I have ONE, installed at a critical point inside my Sony DAC ;)

Yeah go on then... lol

I was just wondering what people thought of them.

[Marco]

Well, Mark Bartlett (from Audiocom International) sells Bybees. He told me about them, and his rather positive findings, from using them inside DACs, at critical points in the circuit. I was rather sceptical, as I generally dislike using 'in-line' filters anywhere in my system, due to the risk of filtering out some of the music, along with any claimed noise.

However, he was rather insistent of their efficacy, and so sent me one to try, about 2 years ago, on a 'return if you think its bollocks' basis. I asked him where he thought it would likely have most effect, and he suggested fitting it at the final point of my DAC's output stage. I kept it for a while until Anthony (TD) was due to visit who, up until then, was a similar sceptic of such devices.

First of all we listened to the DAC 'as is', using a familiar piece of music. It sounded great, as usual. Then Anthony soldered the Bybee filter, in-line with the signal at the point just before where it reaches the coaxial output stage of the DAC. We then connected everything up again, and sat back and listened, not really sure of what to expect...

Well, without going into too much detail, the difference heard was certainly quite marked, and so easily noticed. What happened was that the music appeared to emerge from a quieter backdrop, due to a perceived reduction in 'grain', thus allowing voices and instruments greater prominence in the mix, through improving definition, and in turn increasing their 'intelligibility', which in my experience is generally what happens when one has (subjectively) improved signal integrity. Anthony was also in agreement, and in fact rather shocked at the level of improvement gained!

The upshot was that all music played through the DAC, with the Bybee fitted, was significantly more enjoyable and rewarding to listen to, on all levels, therefore it has remained in its position ever since.

I discussed the possibility of getting more of them, to install in other parts of the circuit. However, Anthony advised against this, as he felt that the significant sonic improvement gained was most likely to have occurred due to the critical nature of where the Bybee had been fitted inside the DAC, and so installing more of them elsewhere, in less critical areas, would unlikely provide such a large improvement and possibly 'over-egg the pudding', as it were. Therefore, I have left things as they are.

There is no doubt therefore, for me, that Bybees do have an audible effect, which in my system was beneficial. As ever, though, results may vary elsewhere. However, for the cost of simply installing one, in the critical area I have outlined inside a DAC, I'd say that it is worth it, given that the level of sonic improvement gained was more significant than I've experienced from considerably more expensive 'off-board' filters - and even from some complete PSUs!

Hope this helps :)

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

It can be lethal stuff that Beryllium, they use it in Microwave oven magnetron's..

[Rare Bird]

It can be lethal stuff that Beryllium,they use it in Microwave oven magnetron's..

[The Black Adder]

Well, Mark Bartlett (from Audiocom International) sells Bybees. He told me about them, and his rather positive findings, from using them inside DACs, at critical points in the circuit. I was rather sceptical, as I generally dislike using 'in-line' filters anywhere in my system, due to the risk of filtering out some of the music, along with any claimed noise.

However, he was rather insistent of their efficacy, and so sent me one to try, about 2 years ago, on a 'return if you think its bollocks' basis. I asked him where he thought it would likely have most effect, and he suggested fitting it at the final point of my DAC's output stage. I kept it for a while until Anthony (TD) was due to visit who, up until then, was a similar sceptic of such devices.

First of all we listened to the DAC 'as is', using a familiar piece of music. It sounded great, as usual. Then Anthony soldered the Bybee filter, in-line with the signal at the point just before where it reaches the coaxial output stage of the DAC. We then connected everything up again, and sat back and listened, not really sure of what to expect...

Well, without going into too much detail, the difference heard was certainly quite marked, and so easily noticed. What happened was that the music appeared to emerge from a quieter backdrop, due to a perceived reduction in 'grain', thus allowing voices and instruments greater prominence in the mix, through improving definition, and in turn increasing their 'intelligibility', which in my experience is generally what happens when one has (subjectively) improved signal integrity. Anthony was also in agreement, and in fact rather shocked at the level of improvement gained!

The upshot was that all music played through the DAC, with the Bybee fitted, was significantly more enjoyable and rewarding to listen to, on all levels, therefore it has remained in its position ever since.

I discussed the possibility of getting more of them, to install in other parts of the circuit. However, Anthony advised against this, as he felt that the significant sonic improvement gained was most likely to have occurred due to the critical nature of where the Bybee had been fitted inside the DAC, and so installing more of them elsewhere, in less critical areas, would unlikely provide such a large improvement and possibly 'over-egg the pudding', as it were. Therefore, I have left things as they are.

There is no doubt therefore, for me, that Bybees do have an audible effect, which in my system was beneficial. As ever, though, results may vary elsewhere. However, for the cost of simply installing one, in the critical area I have outlined inside a DAC, I'd say that it is worth it, given that the level of sonic improvement gained was more significant than I've experienced from considerably more expensive 'off-board' filters - and even from some complete PSUs!

Hope this helps :)


Thanks Marco.

Same here, I hate forced secondary filters unless they are designed or properly compatible.

I did actually have a chat with Mark about updating my DAC a few months ago and he suggested these to which I knew nothing about. I didn't know you had one in your dac though so this might be an interesting thing. He suggested to try one on the positive line after the PSU.

Reading up on these on the net, lol.. apparently it can be lethal stuff that Beryllium,they use it in Microwave oven magnetron's. And although I always thought that up until today a Magnetron was something out of Buck Rodgers.. Biddy, Biddy.

Food for thought. Although if the dissection of the one on DIYAudio is true I find it hard to believe that reputable places like Audiocom would sell or even suggest them. I don't know enough about the internals of these to pass any judgement so trying one might be worth a go.

My Dac is a lovely one and love it to bits. So other upgrades come in the form of an external PSU, updated caps and opamps. Any further suggestions would be appreciated.

:)

[Marco]

I did actually have a chat with Mark about updating my DAC a few months ago and he suggested these to which I knew nothing about. I didn't know you had one in your dac though so this might be an interesting thing. He suggested to try one on the positive line after the PSU.

Food for thought. Although if the dissection of the one on DIYAudio is true I find it hard to believe that reputable places like Audiocom would sell or even suggest them. I don't know enough about the internals of these to pass any judgement so trying one might be worth a go.


No worries, Joe. I can only comment on what both Anthony and I clearly heard, after at first being highly dubious that any improvement would have been gained. Anthony, in particular, is usually dead against using these sorts of things, as they tend to act as a 'bandage', not as a genuine 'fix', which at that point also mirrored my own experience.

Therefore, it seems unlikely that we were victims of any (positive) expectation bias ;)

We also continued listening to various different examples of familiar music that evening, and all had clearly benefited from the Bybee upgrade. If you're curious, my advice would be to try just one, wherever Mark considers it being most effective, and see what you think! :)

Marco.

[Mr. C]

I have been using them as OE fitment for around 10 years, and yes I have measured them too, I agree with Simon no appreciable difference in measurement of the component at all.

However the have a well pleasing effect on the overall sound quality.

Best results use on earth's, digital grounds, clock grounds, analogue grounds, digital signal stages, speakers. Also great in PC power supplies too.

You can get carried away with these, however strategically placed they do bring a smile to your face.

As with everything in audio YMMV and I'm sure the anti foo squad will descend on this thread with all guns blazing, I actually use them in my own personal system and have done for a good 10 years.

[Marco]

I have been using them as OE fitment for around 10 years, and yes I have measured them too, I agree with Simon no appreciable difference in measurement of the component at all.


Possibly because you were (quite naturally) only measuring for what you are able to measure, and what you thought needed measuring, using the test equipment currently available for that purpose, rather than perhaps what should've been measured, using the test equipment *actually* required for the job, which is possibly currently unavailable....? ;)

It's this notion that ALL aspects of our understanding of audio are already a 'done deal', based solely on what we currently know and accept, that I find both overly-simplistic and likely the result of (rather misplaced) wishful thinking.

That's why it often pays to have the confidence to say: 'bugger the measurements', and trust yer lugholes instead!! :exactly:

Marco.

[synsei]

The original Mk1 Lughole, the best test instrument of all :)

[The Black Adder]

When I've everything else sorted I'll give one a go.

It will be included within a few other ideas I've got for the DAC so should be good.

[Marco]

The original Mk1 Lughole, the best test instrument of all :)

As the final arbiter, yes!

Marco.

[losenotaminute]

As the final arbiter, yes!

Marco.

Hi Marco,

But how do you make allowance for the placebo effect? Surely there has to be a point where you say that if you really don't believe it should make a difference then any perceived improvement could be placebo? My system sometimes sounds great and sometimes just good, I have no real idea why as there are so many variables involved, and that's without changing any components or tweaking anything.....

Lawrence

[Marco]

Hi Lawrence,



But how do you make allowance for the placebo effect? Surely there has to be a point where you say that if you really don't believe it should make a difference then any perceived improvement could be placebo? My system sometimes sounds great and sometimes just good, I have no real idea why as there are so many variables involved, and that's without changing any components or tweaking anything.....


Good question, which is why I highlighted the word "final". This was done deliberately to stress that one's ears are only 'trusted' after all other relevant and available avenues (to you) have been exhausted, in an attempt to 'prove' or 'disprove' the existence of a particular phenomenon.

Of course, in such circumstances, the placebo effect could be very real, but at the end of the day it comes down to how convinced and confident you are, using your own judgement criteria (objective or subjective) as the arbiter, that what you're hearing is real - so whilst placebo effect/expectation bias MUST be always be taken into consideration when assessing these things, and before reaching a final conclusion, it needn't necessarily be the defining factor that explains what you've genuinely experienced :)

Marco.

[losenotaminute]

Hi Lawrence,




Good question, which is why I highlighted the word "final". This was done deliberately to stress that one's ears are only 'trusted' after all other relevant and available avenues (to you) have been exhausted, in an attempt to 'prove' or 'disprove' the existence of a particular phenomenon.

Of course, in such circumstances, the placebo effect could be very real, but at the end of the day it comes down to how convinced and confident you are, using your own judgement criteria (objective or subjective) as the arbiter, that what you're hearing is real - so whilst placebo effect/expectation bias MUST be always be taken into consideration when assessing these things, and before reaching a final conclusion, it needn't necessarily be the defining factor that explains what you've genuinely experienced :)

Marco.

If I'm thinking of spending any significant amount (more then £20!) I will usually ask a friend to have a listen as well. For me it makes a big difference to have someone else there who is not trying to sell anything to confirm my own subjective opinion. But that's not to say I would spend money on something that didn't sound good to me.

I think it's my natural scepticism that automatically rejects anything that I don't understand. I want to understand why something is worth buying. I just don't go for the "try it and see" sales tactic, but I appreciate that I may be missing out as a result.

Lawrence

[Marco]

I totally understand and appreciate that, Lawrence. We all have different ways of judging things, and some of us are more inquisitive than others about the 'whys and wherefores' in audio :)

Me? After satisfying my own subjective judgement criteria, the 'worth' of any genuine upgrade is always demonstrated by my increased enjoyment of the music that my system reproduces, at which point any doubt as to whether or not that is being imagined, is rendered as insignificant enough to worry about...! ;)

Marco.

[The Black Adder]

With me I like to try stuff and although in this case I have no idea on know they work or any of the science behind them I'd rather make my judgement with my ears. It's always good to hear that two of the most respected guys on here put the thumbs up with these so that to me makes it a good enough thing to try.

Everybody is different in hearing, systems and expectations and so Marco's description of how it worked in his system has made a good base to do a contrasting review on.

The foo people diss my carbon resistors in my crossovers but to me they sound better than another make eg. Mills etc, if they didn't I'd have sold them on by now.

[sq225917]

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/172673-bybee-quantum-purifier-measurement-analysis.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/184442-cals-bybee-experience.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/184442-cals-bybee-experience.html)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/225928-bybee-quantum-purifier-measurements-double-blind-test.html

and for a laugh, where all the posts by jack Bybee's best friend and biggest pimp, noted designer John Curl are placed end on end.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/156700-jack-bybee-naq-never-asked-questions.html

[Mr. C]

Possibly because you were (quite naturally) only measuring for what you are able to measure, and what you thought needed measuring, using the test equipment currently available for that purpose, rather than perhaps what should've been measured, using the test equipment *actually* required for the job, which is possibly currently unavailable....? ;) Marco.

Marco,

I am quietly confident a HP Network analyzer is capable of identifying quite small differences between components with simple LCR (Capacitance , inductance and resistance, in fact a NWA is not really required at this basic level however) indicatives.

What I believe you are getting at the factors which are not measured ( or considered) that *may* have a discernible difference in sound quality, what are we looking to actually measure? Is there any possible that could be of direct effect on SQ that is not thought of as relevant?

A well known UK audio designer (An utter non foo person of the first order) has an ethos "If you can hear a difference, then there is a difference, whatever that may be"

I have had discussions with many well respected members of this industry and quite few electronics designers in other fields. Their take on audio sector of the industry is indifferent.

Why would I need to design a special power supply for audio? it’s not in a sensitive area (in consideration to a cockpit fly by wire system or sensor instrumentation for a critical aspect of machining or temperature control, environment) that requires extra shielding, low ESR components, segregated transformers etc.

Others feel that unless it’s a custom built transfer totally encased, ultra spec smoothing caps, pre reg’d, super reg’d ultra short circuit pathways etc.

The balance between obsession and it will do is somewhere in the middle I feel :)
This brings into play the Physco-acoustic equation:-

Those people that are totally convinced they are going to hear/will hear a positive difference no matter what is changed, swapped out, upgraded etc.

Those people that are totally convinced they are NOT going to hear any difference no matter what is changed, swapped out, upgraded etc.

Again there are many reasons for this.

However let’s get back to basics, you know your system inside out I suspect, it is your reference, the standard by which you judge others that you hear by, I am I correct?

Therein lies the first problem, we all gravitate towards a sound we find more pleasing regardless of how much, what badge or speakers are being used.

So at the outset your personally are driven by a sense of Uber Naim on Thermionic steroids (ala Marco Joke! ) or more textural rendering with great depth and a little less upfront pace. Maybe you lean towards a big open holographic sound that gives you a hear thoroughness you adore?

Whatever floats your boat, you are much less likely to favor a big open powerful dynamic and detailed sound, if your main systems comprises Larvardin, Electrocompaniet, Pro-ac, Harbeth etc.

That is in no way a critique of the above equipment just an illustration that your sonic preferences lay elsewhere and vice versa.

Next we need to take into account the individuals hearing ability, as has been said we all hear in different ways, some people have a very limited upper frequency extension 9-10K, other are more sensitive to certain frequency ranges and will also shy away from anything that exaggerates or excites this areas.

Conversely some listeners have greater ranges than most; personally I can still hear 15Khz just! We have a couple of clients that are very near to 20Khz.

You then have your room /speaker equation before you get to any equipment; this is the biggest aspect of any audio system.

So taking aside any perceived notions of physco-acoustics, hearing loss, room/speaker interface and preferential sound, unfamiliar surroundings and music it’s tough for the 21st century audiophile!

In the last eighteen months or so, I have conducted more and more basic hearing tests with customers, who find it interesting and informative it is surprising how much this influences their choice of equipment.
Anyway Bybee’s I use em.

[DSJR]

If these things are needed in digital power supplies, I reckon it speaks volumes for the lack of knowledgenand expertise shown in the past in isolating such supplies properly from the chips they're driving. The audio op-amps used in most of these things run out to MHz I understand. You want proof? Look at the work Stan has done on the new Bushmaster model to get the DC supply as clean as he possibly can! Although I've not tried either Bushmaster, I bet these supply differences will make a clear and audible difference!

[Marco]

I've seen most of that stuff before, Simon, and whilst interesting, it doesn't alter my views, in terms of what I wrote earlier regarding the single Bybee installed inside my DAC.

Hi Paul,


Sorry, but that's a load of old cobblers, objectively speaking. If they'd said "we think these make things sound better so buy them" fair enough, but they haven't, they;ve deliberately tried to befuddle and confuse with technobabble.

Indeed, and I hate that, too. Fortunately, I knew nothing about Bybees before Mark sent me that one to try, and neither did any sales blurb arrive with it, so it was simply judged in my system 'blind' (in that sense), in the context of that single application.

Marco.

[Marco]

If these things are needed in digital power supplies, I reckon it speaks volumes for the lack of knowledgenand expertise shown in the past in isolating such supplies properly from the chips they're driving.

So, Dave, are you accusing a company, such as Sony, of a lack of knowledge and expertise? ;)

After all, the Bybee installed inside my Sony DAC, as described, is most certainly having a positive sonic effect.

Marco.

P.S Tony, I'll get to your post later :)

[sq225917]

DSJR, they aren't filters, the resistance and inductance is so low you simply couldn't class them as such. You might get a couple of db reduction out in the mhz range but nothing that is in any way audible. If they are doing something it's not through well understood and easily measurable means.

[Joe]

I can't take them seriously because they sound like Dick van Dyke saying 'babies'.

[Stratmangler]

tYwzG9EGtBU

[Barry]

Ah, Ginger Baker's finest hour - or The Cream attempt a barber shop "trio"(?)!

I reckon these Bybee 'gizmos', would have be sold by Pressed Rat and Warthog: after all, they sold "atonal apples and amplified heat". :lol:

[Oldpinkman]

I know you're trying to lure me in with talk of foo and the like, but I'm having none of it. If you like em, you buy em :)

I'm off to the crystal shop...:)

[Stratmangler]

I'm off to the crystal shop...:)

I've heard that gypsies don't use contraception because they have crystal balls and can see what's coming ... :)

[Oldpinkman]

I've heard that gypsies don't use contraception because they have crystal balls and can see what's coming ... :)

:rfl:

Just because I have a twin-axle caravan...

:rolleyes:

[Macca]

:rfl:

Just because I have a twin-axle caravan...

:rolleyes:

If the van's a rockin' don't come a knockin'

[Oldpinkman]

I'm still not being lured. My lips are sealed. No comment! :zzz:

[Marco]

To lure Pinky, you have to diss his kettle lead! :D :ner:

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

To lure Pinky, you have to diss his kettle lead! :D :ner:

Marco.

Nope. Makes fabulous tea :lol:

[Marco]

So what - mine's makes the water boil quicker! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Stratmangler]

Nope. Makes fabulous tea :lol:

Ah, so you tried it then.
Did you do a double blind taste test or did you trust your own subjective observations? :eyebrows:

[Oldpinkman]

Ah, so you tried it then.
Did you do a double blind taste test or did you trust your own subjective observations? :eyebrows:

Actually, I ejaculated a little prematurely there. I am still on my advanced tea and man's milk evaluation and subjective appreciation course - but I will post a properly evaluated and documented response when I complete the course :eyebrows:

[Gordon Steadman]

Actually, I ejaculated a little prematurely there. I am still on my advanced tea and man's milk evaluation and subjective appreciation course - but I will post a properly evaluated and documented response when I complete the course :eyebrows:

Well it would make me sick whatever way you lead it. Dreadful stuff, don't know how you can drink it. I take it you will also do a double blind test comparing its abilities regarding a proper drink i.e. coffee.

[Oldpinkman]

Well it would make me sick whatever way you lead it. Dreadful stuff, don't know how you can drink it. I take it you will also do a double blind test comparing its abilities regarding a proper drink i.e. coffee.

I have my gaggia expresso machine for the purpose. May need to get another cafiophile mains lead though, and complete yet more training. I never realised joininge a forum could be so demanding :doh:

[Barry]

The juxtaposition of "ejaculation" and "man's milk", makes me wonder where this thread is going? :scratch:

Good to see the Pinkman-Steadman double act is still going strong!

[Joe]

The juxtaposition of "ejaculation" and "man's milk", makes me wonder where this thread is going? :scratch:

This being AoS, I think we can have a good guess.

[Marco]

Where has the 'man's milk' materialsed from? I must be blind, as I can't find it.

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

It's 'ere.


Actually, I ejaculated a little prematurely there. I am still on my advanced tea and man's milk evaluation and subjective appreciation course - but I will post a properly evaluated and documented response when I complete the course :eyebrows:

[Marco]

Ah, cheers... Too much vino, lol!

Marco.

[Gordon Steadman]

The juxtaposition of "ejaculation" and "man's milk", makes me wonder where this thread is going? :scratch:

Good to see the Pinkman-Steadman double act is still going strong!

If I'm part of a double act, where's me wages?

[Oldpinkman]

The juxtaposition of "ejaculation" and "man's milk", makes me wonder where this thread is going? :scratch:

Good to see the Pinkman-Steadman double act is still going strong!

Glad its entertained, but I was happy with the sherlock holmes english. Mans milk is the product of hijacking by a samsung galaxy spellchecker but I can't for the life of me figure out what it was meant to be :scratch:

[Marco]

One wonders if it's full cream or semi-skimmed? :eek:

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

l'd be expecting evaporated from a man of his calibre.

[Marco]

Or vintage? Apparently, things 'dry up' when you get older...

:lolsign:

Don't worry, Rich, as they say in Gangsta films, we're only 'breaking your balls'. Ooh-er not sure now where that one will take us....! :eek:

Marco.

[The Black Adder]

Anyway Bybee’s I use em.

Hi Tony... Where in your system exactly do you use these?

[aBe]

Hahahaa.

Brit-wits at its best.
Can't help laughing aloud alone in front of me lappie..