View Full Version : Hi End Hi Fi Show - Windsor - October 25th and 26th
Anyone going? £20 unless you subscribe to Hifi News or Hifi Choice (£15) Think I will give it a punt.
http://www.hifinews.co.uk/editorial/page.asp?p=875
I would like to, but will probably be too much of a trek.
£20 sobs is a bit steep.......
I'll be going and already have my ticket. Would be good to meet a few AoS members there.
I'll be going and already have my ticket. Would be good to meet a few AoS members there.
I will wear a "Puffin" badge.
I may be going and taking the old man with me :)
infinitydreams
15-09-2013, 20:16
Oh local and looks good..think I might go.
Beobloke
16-09-2013, 09:35
I shall be there on the Saturday.
Audio Al
16-09-2013, 11:50
£20 sobs is a bit steep.......
Is it ?
Cinema cost about £6 for 90 mins if you are lucky
I see this as good value £20 for all day :) viewing and listening to some very expensive systems ;)
And its a day out :D
Definitely a much viable place to view and listen to quality high end audio.
Some quite special equipment will be on show for the first time in the UK as well.
The rooms are pretty good and the venue is nice.
We will be hanging around the TAD equipment in Windsor 2
Spectral Morn
16-09-2013, 12:12
I think Paul Miller's comments in this months HiFi News are quite damaging re this show and Hifi News re what he calls - the unknown brands exhibited at other shows, it came across as a kind of snub to all the new and smaller companies even pretty high end ones, a sort of AtoZ of HiFi no one cares about (if its not on show at Windsor its irrelevant), though he named no brands. Ironically though he is happy to take advertising money and throw the odd reviewing crumb from time to time to new companies and brands not on show in Windsor.
All the brands to be exhibited at this Windsor show were once unknown and to correct an erroneous fact T+A products and complete systems by that brand have been exhibited in the UK many times before so the Windsor show is not going to be the first one that a complete T+A system will be demonstrated.
Regards Neil
Oops, forgot to say that I'll be there on the Friday.
Unfortunately, at this time of year there are too many shows - and all of them MILES away from here, so I have to prioritise. In that respect, I've chosen to go to Whittlebury this weekend instead, as I suspect that it'll be more up my street, particularly as it is a known quantity.
However, I look forward to reading the reports on the Windsor show (and in that respect, someone please make sure that they produce one, and take a camera with them to take pictures ;)), and thus finding out if the entrance fee was worth it or not. If so, I'll shift my priorities next year, should the Windsor show be repeated :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
16-09-2013, 15:13
Unfortunately, at this time of year there are too many shows - and all of them MILES away from here, so I have to prioritise. In that respect, I've chosen to go to Whittlebury this weekend instead, as I suspect that it'll be more up my street, particularly as it is a known quantity.
However, I look forward to reading the reports on the Windsor show (and in that respect, someone please make sure that they produce one, and take a camera with them to take pictures ;)), and thus finding out if the entrance fee was worth it or not. If so, I'll shift my priorities next year :)
Marco.
Hi Marco
Based on what I have read they will be policing this show to within an inch of its life to prevent any but authorised coverage, so I doubt we will see many photos of it outside the pages of HiFi news and the partnering foreign magazines.
Regards Neil
I'll try, but as Neil says it may not be allowed. I'll take my phone for some 'discreet' photos if possible.
Point noted, chaps. If you can manage to take some sneaky pics, it would be appreciated! :)
The somewhat 'rigid and elitist', not to mention rather snooty, approach of this show is one the reasons I'm disinclined to go.
Marco.
realysm42
17-09-2013, 09:49
I'd like ot hear Magicos speakers, see what all the fuss is about.
And the TAD stuff.
Frankyc2003
17-09-2013, 09:54
The somewhat 'rigid and elitist', not to mention rather snooty, approach of this show is one the reasons I'm disinclined to go.
+1 indeed.
I remember stepping inside KJWestOne, and being seriously frowned upon when they realised my bank balance wasn't at the level of a small country's GDP...
And the HFN shows looks like its going the same way...
:ner:
Indeed; it's all wrong. I applaud the need for shows aimed at what one could call 'genuine enthusiasts' (Scalford is an excellent example of this), but dislike shows where there is a distinct whiff of what one could politely refer to as 'exclusivity'.
Although I'm not someone who's short of a bob or two, as it were, that sort of vibe turns me right off, as it's likely to attract mainly pretentious idiots. That comment is incidentally not aimed at anyone here who's going!
As far as I'm concerned, high-end audio should not simply be a pursuit for the rich or the badge snobs. It should be 'demystified' and made more affordable and accessible to 'normal' people! Essentially, showing our members a cost-effective way 'into that zone', as it were, is the essence of what AoS is about.
Marco.
Music and the arts should always be all inclusive.
I do hope this show isn't trying in anyway to exclude.
For me, it distinctly smacks of that.
Marco.
Should keep the riff-raff out :eek:
Frankyc2003
17-09-2013, 11:57
I guess, being devil's advocate, if I was in a position to sell hardware to people that don't worry about how many figures the price tag has, I wouldn't want some 'enthusiat' to come and bore me to death wanting to play 'Jazz at the Pawnshop'... (not a dig at anyone here BTW)
But it's about finding that just balance. Whittlebury last year was quite nice and positively friendly to everyone I felt. Apart maybe from the hotel staff...:eyebrows:
Jack from BD Audio was very welcoming and friendly, David at MCRUS as well... And still they sell expensive stuff too...
I guess when you are in the realm of Wilson Alexandria XLF, Dartzeel, D'agostino, it's not just about the sound quality, it is also a status statement.
A social manifesto of where you 'think' you belong to. I am not in any way denigrating the sound excellence of such items, I have actually never heard them...
I am just thinking that it's a bit like driving a Lamborghini in Chelsea. Once you are on the second gear on the Kings Road, you are done...
Like a quick flash in the pan!
It's not about breaking world records of speed, it's about being seen in one!
And all that wonderful italian technology is wasted and useless to it's owner...
As they say different strokes for different folks. I am sure I wouldn't like the sound of those wonderful systems anyway...:D
kininigin
17-09-2013, 11:59
I've never been to a hi-fi show and this is very close to me,but i think i'll give this a miss! Wouldn't want any riff-raff there would we! :D
I have f*$ked up! I assumed this was on a Sat and Sunday. I am working both days (Fri & Sat). Therefore this "riff-raff" will most definitely not be there :(
Hmm...Friday seems a very odd day to have the show.
I thought it would make a nice day off and could potentially be quieter than Saturday.
Should keep the riff-raff out :eek:
How are you going to manage to get in then? :D
Marco.
P.S That little taffeta number might come in handy now... ;)
I thought it would make a nice day off and could potentially be quieter than Saturday.
Indeed, I suspect it will be quieter than Saturday - as most people will be at work (many of the people with the kind of disposable income this event is aimed at)...
Spectral Morn
17-09-2013, 15:52
The traditional original HiFi News show (a great event imho) was a three day show with Friday trade only and Sat and Sun public. I suspect this show being on a Friday is a throw back to that original show but I think its a waste of time having it on the Friday now as this is not the same type of show as the original one.
Regards Neil
Indeed, I suspect it will be quieter than Saturday - as most people will be at work (many of the people with the kind of disposable income this event is aimed at)...
Disposable income, yes, common sense, no... :eyebrows:
Marco.
I'm not restricted as to when I can take holiday, so as I said I went for the Friday deliberately as it will avoid the Saturday crowds and I'm treating myself to a day off from work. I too want to hear the Magicos again, I always enjoy listening to Wilson speakers (the Sophias I heard a couple of years ago were outstanding) and it's not a bad way to spend a day out :)
Seems like a good plan, mate, so I hope you enjoy yourself. Will there be any of the vinyl sellers there? For me a trip to a hi-fi show is incomplete without a mooch through some records, and returning home with some well-chosen goodies! :)
I shall certainly be indulging myself accordingly at Whittlebury :trust:
Marco.
Will there be any of the vinyl sellers there?
I certainly hope so!
serendipitydawg
17-09-2013, 21:12
I immediately lost interest when I saw the price of admission.
When HFN used to have a show at Heathrow all that was needed for admission was a copy of the current months magazine. Blagging spurious entry on a trade day in order to avoid the scrum was possible as well. How times have changed !
I certainly hope so!
I'd imagine it's possible to check? I note that Chord are exhibiting - one hopes they'll be making some nice noises for a change... If not, Martin, show the buggers how to do it! ;)
Marco.
I note that Chord are exhibiting - one hopes they'll be making some nice noises for a change...
I doubt it, but I'll try. I did tell John Franks once what I thought of those bloody awful Wilson Benesch speakers he was using for demonstration, but he wouldn't acknowledge that the sound was poor.
Tell him to pop back to your place for a listen, and I suspect that he'll 'revise' his opinion! ;)
Marco.
Is it ?
Cinema cost about £6 for 90 mins if you are lucky
I see this as good value £20 for all day :) viewing and listening to some very expensive systems ;)
And its a day out :D
Good, in that case l consider myself treated:ner:
technobear
19-09-2013, 20:38
Perhaps £20 is what it costs to keep riff-raff away in Royal Windsor :scratch:
I can't spare the time for this or Whittlebury this year so I'm looking forward to Bristol, a normal show for normal people.
hifinutt
20-09-2013, 19:46
just bought my ticket , only 15 quid as a subscriber , worth every penny I reckon
Stratmangler
20-09-2013, 19:57
Will there be any of the vinyl sellers there?
I certainly hope so!
Paul and the guys from Diverse will be there.
I suspect Stamford Audio might also be there.
Thanks, Chris. I'll be going through the racks at some point, then.
Rare Bird
20-09-2013, 21:10
I suspect Stamford Audio might also be there.
That's a shame it's so far away as i am sure Gordon would have taken all my LP's from me no fuss.
Just a polite reminder the Absolute Sounds, er............. sorry Hifi News show :) is this weekend.
The full TAD range will be on demonstration for the first time in the UK, including the awesome R-1 MK II speakers and M600 mono blocks, C600 pre-amplifier and D600 SACD/CD player, along with the C2000 dac/pre-amplifier, M2500 power amplifier and the sublime CR-1's compact reference
Also making an appearance for the first time anywhere are the new TAD D1000 and DA1000 pairing.
http://tad-labs.com/en/corporate/press/130926_01.html
Timeless musical beauty that is the Oracle Delphi MK VI will providing the vinyl and supported by the superb Aurorasound Vida phono stage.
Come and feast your eyes and ears on some of the very best audio available today. Demonstrations start @ 11am in Windsor 2 and will be running through until at least 7pm. Your chance to sample TAD for the first time in the UK
http://tad-labs.com/en/consumer/reference_one/img/products_titimg01.jpg
Audioman
22-10-2013, 19:51
Paul and the guys from Diverse will be there.
I suspect Stamford Audio might also be there.
Received an email today saying Stamford Audio won't be attending due to illness.
Your chance to sample TAD for the first time in the UK
I'll be there on Friday, Tony. I'll come for a demo some time in the afternoon.
The location in Old Windsor was good and the venue rooms much better than the usual pokey hotel rooms. Most systems had room to breath with only some upper-bass boom to contend with (don't we all). Signposting could have been a lot clearer but at least today was relatively quiet and it was easy to get service at the bar!
I only took a few photos of those rooms I think were worth talking about, so here is my short summary. Please excuse the quality of the shots, I had to use the phone with no flash.
The new Wilson Alexia speakers, driven by D'Agostino power amps and preamp and an Audio Research CD-9 disc player. The last time I heard Wilsons were the Sophia II and I was transfixed by them. These Alexias delivered the goods as did the whole system, sounding tonally neutral, wideband and dynamic. However, I kept asking myself if they were better than my speakers and the answer was doubtful. At £48k the pair (and a cool £27.5k per monoblock), they really ought to have been.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3750/10478039214_8949028224_b.jpg
Mid-sized Martin Logans driven by big Krell electronics. They sounded as electrostatics should do: detailed and nimble. However, I have never quite liked the bass integration of MLs and these were no exception. I think ML keep the bass output light in order to aid integration but the bass was a little lost in the big room.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3785/10478049466_f813634650_b.jpg
The gorgeous high end dual belt EAT turntable with, presumably, their own arm (although the blurb says it's an Ikeda). Sadly I didn't get to hear it, but I offer it just for the looks.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3698/10478048926_9413da1f56_b.jpg
The very nice sounding Spiral Groove turntable with Lyra Kleos cartridge. I had expected it to sound bright, knowing Lyras of old, but it sounded superbly balanced, dynamic and with very low surface noise. A lovely deck.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7379/10478021435_cbd1ce166c_b.jpg
A room with pricing to match the Wilson room, these are the three-way Magico S1 acoustic suspension speakers driven by an enormous Constellation power amp. Like the Wilsons, they were tonally neutral and dynamic speakers with absolutely superb piano tone. I would have liked to have heard the larger Magicos, to be honest, but they made a good sound. Is £29,995 an 'affordable price point'?
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3727/10478038334_3a6bd2b2bc_b.jpg
The deck driving the Magicos was the huge TechDAS Air Force One turntable, suspended on air and featuring vacuum suction of the LP. This one had a Continuum Cobra arm mounted. At £79k, perhaps it could be called a bargain when seen against the Continuum Caliburn? I must admit that an old Ashkenazy Mozart LP put on by Riccardo Franassovici sounded spine tinglingly magical.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3802/10478021235_d920e7353e_b.jpg
What's this? Focal Grande Utopia EMs driven by a trio of Naim NAP500s? :eek:
To be honest, it didn't sound too bad, but it didn't blow me away either. With £60k worth of Naim amps alone and goodness knows how much for the speakers, I should have been blown away, but I wasn't. Then again, having compared a NAP500 with my Chord SPM-1200E, I think I know why.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2888/10478214733_b2e5ac7082_b.jpg
The TAD room was playing first the 'baby' Compact Reference 1, and later the Reference 1, speakers. Sources were file-based, CD and a poorly sounding Oracle Delphi with a knackered cartridge. Those CR1s sounded way, way better than anything I have ever heard at their size. The sense of scale was simply astonishing and the dynamics eye-popping. Not only did they do this, but they were incredibly tonally accurate (human voice and piano passing with flying colours) and looked gorgeous, too. Electronics were all TAD and the files were supplied by no more than a laptop. The big speakers came in later and offered only a very little more in that room, making the CR1s even more remarkable.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2850/10478022325_bbdff28db0_b.jpg
I had a good chat with Tony of Coherent Systems afterwards, only cut short because he was late delivering his next presentation! A very knowledgeable chap and I could have had a much longer chat with him over a beer had we had the chance. Perhaps another time?
I caught up with Kevin of Signature Audio Systems, who asked after my Power Plant P10 (one of the first in the UK) and said they were selling very well indeed.
Finally, I had a very good discussion with John Franks of Chord Electronics. He suggested that I should look at the SPM-1400E monoblocks but I'm not going down that route just at the moment. It's a shame that he still uses Wilson Benesch speakers to demonstrate his products, but there's no persuading him otherwise.
Sadly there were no stalls selling music, what a let down after hearing so much that I wanted to buy there and then!
Quote of the show: Riccardo saying "CDs will be your last chance ever to buy physical media - do it now as in five years' time there won't be much left". He went on to say that Amazon is your friend. I agree and am back-cataloguing fast.
Star of the show: the TAD CR1 speakers.
I only heard the small TAD speakers but really amazing speakers They resolve like nothing I heard before but they should do at that price. For me their my reference point for what I want to achieve
Spectral Morn
25-10-2013, 18:39
Well done getting some photos Martin, and thank you for sharing your impressions.
Regards Neil
Great write-up and photos Martin. From the tone of your report, do I detect a certain amount of style and cost over substance was a feature of the show? There seems to have been little really affordable there except for the truly well healed which makes the relevance of the show to the general enthusiast somewhat limiting. Liked the Spiral Groove...very tidy looking deck. I heard the TAD CR1s at Whittlebury (at least I think that's what they were) and agree that they were very tonally neutral sounding with great detail and imaging, beautifully made but to my ears they had the bottom octave completely missing. Perhaps the room they were in was too large but they weren't doing full range or anything close to it when I listened.
Martin - Great write up. Bit like Top Gear these shows - 'look at what you could buy if you were a millionaire' - but it gives one something to aim at I suppose. To answer your question, no I don't think £29995 is an affordable price point :) although at least with an expensive loudspeaker there is some serious mechanical engineering going on so you can see where the money is going unlike a £15k solid-state power amp if you know what I mean ;)
Thank heavens for the vintage used market, as once stupidly priced gear like that pictured plummets in price after a few years, making it just about affordable for the enthusiast.
The rest of us can use the likes of Quad and Croft and smile smugly :lol:
do I detect a certain amount of style and cost over substance was a feature of the show?
No, I don't think it was style over substance. Most everything I heard was delivering at least reasonable quality. It's the assumption of 'affordability' that made me uncomfortable. Look, I know I've spent a penny or two on my system in the past, but then I used to earn twice what I do now. I could not afford what I have right now if I started again. When Riccado states that he can help a buyer build an affordable system from components lower down their product range, and points to the Constellation Argo integrated amp at £22.5k and the small Magicos at £13.9k, I felt distinctly uncomfortable and there were considerable drawings-in of breath around me. There's a big disconnect there.
to my ears they had the bottom octave completely missing. Perhaps the room they were in was too large but they weren't doing full range or anything close to it when I listened.
They certainly didn't have the bottom octave missing yesterday.
MikeMusic
26-10-2013, 10:51
Thanks Martin
realysm42
26-10-2013, 11:00
Cheers Martin, interesting read.
MikeMusic
26-10-2013, 11:08
Riccado states that he can help a buyer build an affordable system from components lower down their product range, and points to the Constellation Argo integrated amp at £22.5k and the small Magicos at £13.9k, I felt distinctly uncomfortable and there were considerable drawings-in of breath around me. There's a big disconnect there.
Sounds out of touch to me, although if he has set his demographic at people that spend that and it works - good business
He's been in business for decades and seems to know his demographic very well. Perhaps if he were just a little more honest about it and said "if you have a budget of less than £30k you should look elsewhere", it might annoy people less.
MikeMusic
26-10-2013, 11:39
Quite.
Then punters can aspire to 'talking to Riccado', rather than teeing punters off
No, I don't think it was style over substance. Most everything I heard was delivering at least reasonable quality. It's the assumption of 'affordability' that made me uncomfortable. Look, I know I've spent a penny or two on my system in the past, but then I used to earn twice what I do now. I could not afford what I have right now if I started again. When Riccado states that he can help a buyer build an affordable system from components lower down their product range, and points to the Constellation Argo integrated amp at £22.5k and the small Magicos at £13.9k, I felt distinctly uncomfortable and there were considerable drawings-in of breath around me. There's a big disconnect there.
They certainly didn't have the bottom octave missing yesterday.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Martin. I'd hope that at the prices quoted for something a little more than just "at least reasonable quality" though. In fact, I'd expect it to be nothing short of sensational! As you point out, it's the quoted prices of the systems on show...a tad out of touch with reality except for a very limited demographic which seems to have been the thrust of the show appeal.
RE the TAD speakers...interesting. They certainly were very nicely voiced, perhaps it was the room/recording then because they simply weren't doing proper low bass when I had a listen. I could have almost forgiven that for everything else they seemed to do right.
When I heard the TAD the did bass well
I never really judge at shows as most rooms are hard to get the balance right
Wakefield Turntables
26-10-2013, 13:29
Thanks for the writeup Martin, that was excellent. Some nice stuff, pity my wallet couldn't expand by a factor of at least a 1000 to afford some of the TAD stuff. :(
MikeMusic
26-10-2013, 13:47
Makes me think about this 'ere lil ole forum
I used to think that to get a system that sounded really good you were into £100,000 and more
Not so.
Helps that a lot of those gathered here are 'careful with money'
:D
with an enquring and scientific mind
Hey, who said Cheapskates ?!
I think you've done particularly well through diligent use of the used market, Mike. Shows what can be done.
MikeMusic
26-10-2013, 14:10
I think you've done particularly well through diligent use of the used market, Mike. Shows what can be done.
And following Uncle Martin !
:)
Couple of years back we went to Tom Tom for a demo of CDX, CDX2, 82 Pre amp and others. Also had my 32.5, HiCap and 135s serviced as they were in dire need
James pointed out the price for the top end Naim system was £50,000 plus speakers
Knowing there is better kit than Naim, and assuming this would be waaaaaay more money than £50,ooo my estimate of £100,000 + came easily.
I'd also seen pics of our friends kit in Greece
:)
Mid-sized Martin Logans driven by big Krell electronics. They sounded as electrostatics should do: detailed and nimble. However, I have never quite liked the bass integration of MLs and these were no exception. I think ML keep the bass output light in order to aid integration but the bass was a little lost in the big room.
If the MLs were Summit Xs they have 25 and 50Hz bass controls and active class D amps. They WILL do excessive bass no problemo... should you so desire.
I used to use Ascents and a Descent. Americans like bass. Trust me:)
Makes me think about this 'ere lil ole forum
I used to think that to get a system that sounded really good you were into £100,000 and more
Not so.
Helps that a lot of those gathered here are 'careful with money'
:D
with an enquring and scientific mind
Hey, who said Cheapskates ?!
+1 with knobs on Mike. Four years ago, when I decided to re-enter the fray and having just picked up a modest NAD/Mission system for a ton off ebay, I could never have dreamed that I would eventually end up with the quality kit I now own. More important than the gear though is the sound it produces, which is far and away the best I have heard compared to that from any system I've owned previously, and I've owned some good systems ;)
I was with Paul and Jerry listening to the TADs at Whittlebury. They sounded nice with some classical but heard no deep bass and TBH I'm not sure the material I heard had any anyway.
Pleasant enough but I didn't feel I heard anything that really tested them out.
If the MLs were Summit Xs
I've heard them and they were very good. A little large for the average British listening room, though.
Sadly there were no stalls selling music, what a let down after hearing so much that I wanted to buy there and then!
Nightmare... Dunno where Chris got his information from then:
Paul and the guys from Diverse will be there.
I suspect Stamford Audio might also be there.
:confused: :scratch:
I'm really glad now that I didn't go, as the absence of the sale of any vinyl would've seriously pissed me off, had I driven all the way down there to discover that!! There are three reasons I go to commercial hi-fi shows (in order of priority):
1) To have a chinwag and share a few beers with any AoS members present, or folk I know from other forums.
2) To buy some new music (mostly vinyl).
3) To listen to the overpriced 'badge-fi' and see if, just for once, I'd hear some equipment that sounded better than I use at home.
Thanks for taking the time to post some pics and do a little write-up, Martin, both of which were interesting and appreciated. However, based on the absence of any music for sale, and your comments about the systems in general, I don't think that I missed very much! ;)
Marco.
The only thing I would say to that, Marco, is that I enjoy hearing the latest offerings no matter the price. Also, there are always gems like the TAD to discover. I did manage to have a good chinwag with various vendors and considered it a very worthwhile day all-in.
hifi_dave
26-10-2013, 19:46
Sounds out of touch to me, although if he has set his demographic at people that spend that and it works - good business
Not really 'out of touch' as he knows his market very well. After all, he has been in this business for 30 years and is the UK's largest distributor of specialist Hi-Fi by a huge margin. Everything he shows in his product portfolio is in stock and this must run into several Million Pounds.
I have no idea who buys this megabuck kit but they most certainly do.
Not really 'out of touch' as he knows his market very well. After all, he has been in this business for 30 years and is the UK's largest distributor of specialist Hi-Fi by a huge margin. Everything he shows in his product portfolio is in stock and this must run into several Million Pounds.
I have no idea who buys this megabuck kit but they most certainly do.
there are plenty of billionaires in this country and 1000's of millionaires
The only thing I would say to that, Marco, is that I enjoy hearing the latest offerings no matter the price. Also, there are always gems like the TAD to discover. I did manage to have a good chinwag with various vendors and considered it a very worthwhile day all-in.
Sure, Martin. I totally get that, and out of everything on demo, the TADs are what I'd have been interested in hearing the most, simply to see if all the hype was justified. Judging on what's been written here, however, I'm not sure.
The problem for me is that I'm totally opposed to the audio selling philosophy of Absolute Sounds, as it's diametrically opposed to my own philosophy (and that of AoS) of system building, based on achieving the highest SPPV.
I do understand the purpose of this sort of gear, though, but it'll never be something that sits comfortably with me (and from your comments I can detect that you share some of my sentiments and concerns), even though I have the financial wherewithal to join that playground if I considered it justified.
One wonders if the fact that there was no music for sale at the show was because (present company excepted) there were more hi-fi fanatics/badge snobs there than music lovers? ;)
Marco.
Frankyc2003
26-10-2013, 20:12
there are plenty of billionaires in this country and 1000's of millionaires
Indeed, that brings back to my memory a weird moment when I was helping a friend demoing some speakers at Infidelity in Hampton Wick.
Basically a young guy, looking very 'normal' turned up in the shop to come and collect his 9 boxes Naim system (with associated cabling I must add)... The boxes kept on piling in the entrance, while he parked his Porsche Panamera outside.
Just like me and you pick up a saveloy and chips from our local chippie...
I heard stamford pulled out due to illness.
Fair enough, if that's the case. What happened then to Diverse?
Marco.
Fair enough, if that's the case. What happened then to Diverse?
Marco.
Politics no doubt.
What politics are you referring to exactly?
Marco.
Stamford were in the programme but Diverse weren't. Maybe they were never going and we were misinformed?
pure sound
27-10-2013, 07:44
Diverse were asked, but as I understood it, almost expected to be given their booth foc. So Stamford were asked and were due to attend but were unable to because of illness. The space was taken by AKG who displayed their headphone range.
There were some very large ambitious systems on display, with the ones I heard apparently working to close to their full potential in largeish rooms. Whether or not their presentations matched peoples' particlar preferences is another issue but most at least were giving a good account of themselves. I thought it was a worthwhile event with plenty to see & hear. We had a good response to our efforts anyway.
If you get the chance Marco hear the TADs at Tony I think you like them
I agree about SPPV but a show like what Martin went too was never going to be about that
Thanks for that, Guy. Most interesting... I would've presumed that Diverse would've been charged the same as they pay for exhibiting at every other show, so why on earth were they expecting to do so at Windsor for free? :scratch:
Marco.
If you get the chance Marco hear the TADs at Tony I think you like them
I agree about SPPV but a show like what Martin went too was never going to be about that
I totally agree, John. You know my views on shows like that, though, so enough said. My interest in the 'high-end' is also much more focussed on the products from small, specialist, manufacturers, which on the evidence I've seen, appears to have been absent from this show, as was any valve equipment, unless someone can correct me there.
I know it's a different thing entirely, but the Munich show in Germany is likely to be much more my thing - and I intend to go to the next one!
As for the TADs, I'm sure you're right and that Tony would be able to demonstrate them to great effect. You know me though, my version of 'proper' speakers generally features the use of 15" drivers, and sometimes two of them, side by side!! ;)
Incidentally, no-one's commented on the STST turntable that Guy sells - how did that perform, Martin, or anyone who was at Windsor?
Marco.
pure sound
27-10-2013, 08:11
With regard to valves, there was equipment there by Canor, VTL, Modwright, Audio Research, and possibly more that I missed.
With regard to Sppv, I was talking to a nice chap from Edwards Audio who was showing a fine little system, all UK made comprising a Rega derived deck & arm, separate phono stage, Nait sized 50W amp and some sweet little real wood veneered floorstanders all for about £1300. Amazing value and ideal for a 1st time buyer or student afraid of dipping into the 2nd hand market.
Ah, I see... Now that sounds rather more interesting than what's been reported about so far!! Why did no-one mention that stuff before? :doh:
Anyway, how was the STST received? :)
Marco.
jandl100
27-10-2013, 08:31
Ah, I see... Now that sounds rather more interesting than what's been reported about so far!! Why did no-one mention that stuff before? :doh:
Martin likes the expensive stuff! :lol:
Very interesting to hear that the smaller TAD speakers were doing bass at the show - MartinT is certainly a man who knows his bass :eyebrows: - at the National Show the bass was indeed MIA and AWOL as previously reported. Perhaps just poor setup there?
I know it's a different thing entirely, but the Munich show in Germany is likely to be much more my thing - and I intend to go to the next one!
As for the TADs, I'm sure you're right and that Tony would be able to demonstrate them to great effect. You know me though, my version of 'proper' speakers generally features the use of 15" drivers, and sometimes two of them, side by side!! ;)
.
The smaller TADs look lovely in the flesh and are beautifully made. But there's no way on the planet they'll shift as much air as a Celestion 66 or a big Tannoy. Simple physics comes into play here.
Whilst I think the TAD is probably really hard to genuinely dislike, I don't think you'll end up hankering for a pair. At £37K it is largely irrelevant anyway. I'm not saying you can't afford them, I just don't think you'd want to buy them given the cost and knowledge you have.
As for Munich everyone has to go there at least once. Captain Audiophile sez so.
Anyway, this thread is a little bit naughty. Weren't there supposed to be no cameras and internet reporting on it prior to HFN publication? TBH I think that was a bit of an unrealistic dream....
Spectral Morn
27-10-2013, 08:42
The TADs look lovely in the flesh and are beautifully made. But there's no way on the planet they'll shift as much air as a Celestion 66 or a big Tannoy. Simple physics comes into play here.
Whilst I think the TAD is probably really hard to genuinely dislike, I don't think you'll end up hankering for a pair. At £37K it is largely irrelevant anyway. I'm not saying you can't afford them, I just don't think you'd want to buy them given the cost and knowledge you have.
As for Munich everyone has to go there at least once. Captain Audiophile sez so.
Anyway, this thread is a little bit naughty. Weren't there supposed to be no cameras and internet reporting on it prior to HFN publication? TBH I think that was a bit of an unrealistic dream....
Hi Justin
Having done a bit of a trawl of the net - so far - I can't see much coverage anywhere and certainly on the big UK forums AOS is the only one - so far - with any photos or meaningful discussion. Looks like News succeeded in keeping most of the..... 'great unwashed, carrier bag carrying audio enthusiasts' away......
Regards Neil
there were more hi-fi fanatics/badge snobs there than music lovers?
Have to disagree, Marco. The audience were very appreciative of the music being played, which was varied and should have at least interested most attendees. There was also much talk of the music as it was being played. I saw no overt signs of badge snobbery - apart from the obvious high ticket prices. But that's not the same thing.
pure sound
27-10-2013, 08:48
Plenty of people taking pics on phones in our room. I guess that may have been trickier in the closed door dems. Can't blame HFN for wanting the press exclusive on covering the event & I guess the other mags will respect that although Messrs Colloms, Sircom, Gregory, Jason Kennedy etc were there.
The STST was sounding nice Marco. People seemed impressed. I should really have run it undressed or had a second one there without a plinth. It looks quite saucy when naked!
Now that sounds rather more interesting than what's been reported about so far!!.
As I said, I only reported on what I liked. The VTL room, for instance, did not sound too good to my ears.
Hi Justin
Having done a bit of a trawl of the net - so far - I can't see much coverage anywhere and certainly on the big UK forums AOS is the only one - so far - with any photos or meaningful discussion. Looks like News succeeded in keeping most of the..... 'great unwashed, carrier bag carrying audio enthusiasts' away......
Regards Neil
More will appear before HFN gets its mag out, I'm sure Neil. Maybe not so much in the way of photos though as it does seem they were clamping down on that at the show.
Regretting I didn't go a bit, but it did seem like a hassle and that is what put me off. I'm not a great fan of ticketed demos etc. What I particularly don't like is a lecture or presentation from a salesman. All that is required is for the system to speak for itself, and I find myself wishing they'd just cut the BS and get the system going.
Now if a salesman was genuinely saying things worth hearing that'd be a different story... I just haven't encountered much of that.
jandl100
27-10-2013, 09:04
Looks like an interesting show - wish I'd gone to it!
jandl100
27-10-2013, 09:25
As I said, I only reported on what I liked. The VTL room, for instance, did not sound too good to my ears.
At previous Whittlebury National Shows, VTL amps have been paired with middle of the range Focal Utopias - not a match made in heaven, imo.
What was the system at the Windsor show?
First, Thanks Martin for an excellent review, I broadly agree with everything you said.
It was the only show my wife and I could attend this year and I must admit I was not looking forward to go given the negative publicity it was getting.
Brief comments in no particular order,
Martin Logans, I love the electrostatic part but I did not think it intricate well with the base part, a little bit like a “home cinema” sound if you like.
TAD CR1, out of all the speakers we heard they were the only ones that would work in my room. I did not find the bigger ones added anything in the demo room.
Wilson Alexia demo, fantastic, always loved Wilson speakers to me they have the clarity and speed of my Quads with added top, bottom and sheer power. If I was a multi-millionaire hat would be the system I would go for. The whole system worked very well.
Magico demo, I heard these with the new Metronome CD player. These speakers were not to my taste. Not sure why, more “hi-fi” than pure music I suppose.
Focal / Naim, sounded nice, but I’ve heard them sound better with other amplification and sources.
Chord, I don’t know what was going on when I was there, very thin sound from a 24/96 source.
Spiral Groove turntable / VTL sounded very nice indeed.
Having visited most of the demos in the main building we went to the other smaller building where there were walk in demos like a normal show. We listened to the Van den Hul room which had The COLIBRI cartridge playing DSOTM, sounded great, but the room was too small to let the system work at its best. We also spent some time listening to a Clear Audio Master Innovation turntable, da Vinci cartridge and one of their parallel tracking arms. Again sounded great but needed a better room.
After that we went back for another listen to the Alexia with different music, not disappointed.
Overall I thought it was a great day out for £15.00 each. The lunch was good value at £7.50. It could do with better signage. I’m not saying that it is the way Hi-Fi should be going but it shows that if money is no object what can be done. I’m happy to let those with the money, lack of time, or knowledge to go to Absolute Sounds or whoever to get a great sounding system with minimum fuss. However for the rest of us its research, vintage and ex-demo equipment, buts that’s all part of the fun!
Wakefield Turntables
27-10-2013, 10:15
I was talking to a nice chap from Edwards Audio who was showing a fine little system, all UK made comprising a Rega derived deck & arm, separate phono stage, Nait sized 50W amp and some sweet little real wood veneered floorstanders all for about £1300. Amazing value and ideal for a 1st time buyer or student afraid of dipping into the 2nd hand market.
How many students have £1300 for a system:scratch: Probably a few, I think there is more cachet dipping into the 2nd hand market, retro is very cool at the moment, but I can see your point for those that have the money.
The Black Adder
27-10-2013, 10:25
How many students have £1300 for a system:scratch: Probably a few
A lot more than a few these days I'd say... The car park at Derby uni looks more like a new car supermarket. :stalks: Unbelievable!... lol
Frankyc2003
27-10-2013, 10:29
The youth market is dominated by Apple and Beats!
Relatively cheap, 'on the go', definitely cool looking hence so desirable...
As product placement and marketing effort, Beats has done so well recently, there is no new music video in the top places of the UK HOT 40 that hasn't a few shots of Beats pill...
(Miley Cyrus, Jessie J, Robin Thicke...)
This chart is by the way measured in actual paid downloads not physical sales anymore...
No student has a £1300 system, this is not the 70's or the 80's when you could eat beans for 6 months and save every penny...
On the other hand, you are right there is a real uptake in terms of sales for Vinyl.
That's the retro appeal you refer to isn't it?
People with disposable income in their 30's wanting to dip their toes in the realm of analogue sound...
But overall we are talking about very different demographics with different budgets and priorities.
As much as I would love to see young people getting into vinyl, this isn't happening I am afraid... (in pure economical terms that is... obviously some kids do get a chance to listen to vinyl thanks to their dad or uncle...)
Hi Justin,
The smaller TADs look lovely in the flesh and are beautifully made. But there's no way on the planet they'll shift as much air as a Celestion 66 or a big Tannoy. Simple physics comes into play here.
Whilst I think the TAD is probably really hard to genuinely dislike, I don't think you'll end up hankering for a pair. At £37K it is largely irrelevant anyway. I'm not saying you can't afford them, I just don't think you'd want to buy them given the cost and knowledge you have.
You're almost certainly right with your above observations, although listening to the TADs would have no doubt provided a learning curve.
The thing for me is that one of the major pleasures I get from my system is not only enjoying the superb sound it produces (and how it allows me to appreciate my favourite music), but knowing that I've applied a goodly dose of lateral thinking assembling it, featuring the use of rather 'leftfield' choices, instead of simply dropping 'house prices' on what the magazines (or Absolute Sounds) profess as being 'the correct kit to have', even though I could afford to do so, if I were suitably convinced that it was warranted.
*THAT* is what makes it fun for me! I simply don't need to be told what to buy by anyone, and nor am I influenced one iota by the 'prestige value' of owning equipment from certain 'desirable brands'. I do things MY way, based solely on my knowledge and listening experiences, using SPPV as the guiding influence - and it's an appraoch that works! :)
Anyway, this thread is a little bit naughty. Weren't there supposed to be no cameras and internet reporting on it prior to HFN publication? TBH I think that was a bit of an unrealistic dream....
Indeed - and well done to Martin for managing to sneak in some pics, even if he missed most of the stuff that lights my fire... ;)
Marco.
As I said, I only reported on what I liked. The VTL room, for instance, did not sound too good to my ears.
No worries... Surprised you didn't swing by Guy's room, where the STST turntable was, and take some pics - or maybe you did but didn't rate it?
Marco.
The thing for me is that one of the major pleasures I get from my system is not only enjoying the superb sound it produces (and how it allows me to appreciate my favourite music), but knowing that I've applied a goodly dose of lateral thinking assembling it, featuring the use of rather 'leftfield' choices, instead of simply dropping 'house prices' on what the magazines (or Absolute Sounds) profess as being 'the correct kit to have', even though I could afford to do so, if I were suitably convinced that it was warranted.
*THAT* is what makes it fun for me! I simply don't need to be told what to buy by anyone, and nor am I influenced one iota by the 'prestige value' of owning equipment from certain 'desirable brands'. I do things MY way, based solely on my knowledge and listening experiences, using SPPV as the guiding influence - and it's an appraoch that works! :)
That's how it works for me too. It's an added satisfaction as you say. Such an approach is not for everyone, though, and that's fine as far as I'm concerned.
The STST was sounding nice Marco. People seemed impressed. I should really have run it undressed or had a second one there without a plinth. It looks quite saucy when naked!
Nice one, Guy. I'd loved to have heard it. What was the rest of the system? :)
Marco.
pure sound
27-10-2013, 11:46
I was sharing the room with Jack (BD Audio) & BobC who makes some very nice solid wood tables/racks. We used the TT with an SMEV (an arm that can be difficult to partner in my experience, but this combination seems to work quite well) an Io, the Vida phono stage and one of my CD players. We used those with a 2 box Modwright valve linestage & SS power amp with the Tune Audio Primes a 2 way backloaded horn with a custom Fostex 6" & Fostex bullet tweeter.
I was sharing the room with Jack (BD Audio) & BobC who makes some very nice solid wood tables/racks. We used the TT with an SMEV (an arm that can be difficult to partner in my experience, but this combination seems to work quite well) an Io, the Vida phono stage and one of my CD players. We used those with a 2 box Modwright valve linestage & SS power amp with the Tune Audio Primes a 2 way backloaded horn with a custom Fostex 6" & Fostex bullet tweeter.
Cool - now that sounds like a system I'd have made a beeline for to hear! Of most interest to me would've been getting a listen to the STST, in terms of trying to ascertain how close it sounded to my modded Techy, which I'm surprised that Martin wasn't equally as curious about with regards to his own T/T - or perhaps he just missed your room?
Easily done, I guess :)
Marco.
pure sound
27-10-2013, 12:32
Unlike the rooms in the main hotel which were pretty large, most of the rooms in the Sandringham block were more typically domestic in size & it made sense to keep the systems proportionate to that. Our room was probably 4m x 3.8m or thereabouts so just about big enough to do something with.
Sorry I didn't hear the Pure Sounds room, I looked in twice and both times it was too crowded!
MikeMusic
27-10-2013, 14:49
Not really 'out of touch' as he knows his market very well. After all, he has been in this business for 30 years and is the UK's largest distributor of specialist Hi-Fi by a huge margin. Everything he shows in his product portfolio is in stock and this must run into several Million Pounds.
I have no idea who buys this megabuck kit but they most certainly do.
He has a very nice set up then.
I'd like the same of printing please !
:)
hifi_dave
27-10-2013, 14:52
He has a very nice set up then.
I'd like the same of printing please !
:)
and I'd like a tiny piece of his turnover..:rolleyes:
Lodgesound
27-10-2013, 18:39
At the sort of price levels I'm sure we are talking about you could probably buy and install a full vinyl mastering and cutting rig at your home.....
That's a thought - what does a cutting lathe platter system sound like on playback of vinyl I wonder? I know that a properly set up cutter can make incredibly accurate acetates, but has anyone out there ever used one as a playback device (with playback arm and cartridge of course)?
I enjoyed the show.
It seemed to me to have better rooms than shows usually have. It was a chance to hear state of the art kit. I largely agree with what Martin wrote, though, for me the best sound was the Magico S5 with Constellation amps and Metronome CD player.
I picked up a price list, so for interest I quote (I may have got the models wrong, the -really- expensive stuff is POA:
CD transport £26500
DAC £29888
Preamp £25500
Power amps £55000
Speakers £29995
The turntable was going to be used to an open demo of a complete disc in the evening.
TT £79000
Arm £18900
didn't see which cartridge.
Should have been good Eh!?
I prefered the sound of the smaller TAD to the larger, which was boomy in that room. Questioned about the bass Frankie, the Euro marketing guy played some techno. No shortage of clean, clear bass with no overhang there. No waffle and boom at all. Liked it.
The Naim Focal room was much better than I had been led to expect given previous show commentaries.
I missed the ticket only PMC room with mastering engineer talk and live music, all the tickets were sold on line before the show.
I started at the Pure Sound/BD audio room which sounded fabulous. The STST turntable is the first I would listen to if my old soldier kicks the bucket. It makes total sense both from an engineering and elegant looks POV.
I was horrified how many belt drive turntables have round section belts these days! I understand it when cheap is the objective, but some of these are pricy!
Lodgesound
27-10-2013, 20:55
That's a thought - what does a cutting lathe platter system sound like on playback of vinyl I wonder? I know that a properly set up cutter can make incredibly accurate acetates, but has anyone out there ever used one as a playback device (with playback arm and cartridge of course)?
Yes...me....
For consistency however I much preferred using the analogue tape machine used to feed the signal to the lathe...................insane arrangement! One that sadly I can never replicate as I am now way too old to be a viable proposition in the mastering industry (or what tiny weeny itsy bitsy section of it remains!).
I picked up a price list, so for interest I quote (I may have got the models wrong, the -really- expensive stuff is POA:
CD transport £26500
DAC £29888
Preamp £25500
Power amps £55000
Speakers £29995
The turntable was going to be used to an open demo of a complete disc in the evening.
TT £79000
Arm £18900
didn't see which cartridge.
Junk the TT, expensive amps and digital bits. Replace with a competent 2nd hand £2-4K digital front end straight into some 2nd hand £4K power amps, with wise choices, mind you, and I bet you'd be close and amazingly possibly better with really good choices,
It isn't too hard to see through high prices. Let's face it, an Ariel Atom goes pretty fast, for way less than some esoteric motors.
Lodgesound
27-10-2013, 21:15
I enjoyed the show.
It seemed to me to have better rooms than shows usually have. It was a chance to hear state of the art kit. I largely agree with what Martin wrote, though, for me the best sound was the Magico S5 with Constellation amps and Metronome CD player.
I picked up a price list, so for interest I quote (I may have got the models wrong, the -really- expensive stuff is POA:
CD transport £26500
DAC £29888
Preamp £25500
Power amps £55000
Speakers £29995
The turntable was going to be used to an open demo of a complete disc in the evening.
TT £79000
Arm £18900
didn't see which cartridge.
Should have been good Eh!?
I prefered the sound of the smaller TAD to the larger, which was boomy in that room. Questioned about the bass Frankie, the Euro marketing guy played some techno. No shortage of clean, clear bass with no overhang there. No waffle and boom at all. Liked it.
The Naim Focal room was much better than I had been led to expect given previous show commentaries.
I missed the ticket only PMC room with mastering engineer talk and live music, all the tickets were sold on line before the show.
I started at the Pure Sound/BD audio room which sounded fabulous. The STST turntable is the first I would listen to if my old soldier kicks the bucket. It makes total sense both from an engineering and elegant looks POV.
I was horrified how many belt drive turntables have round section belts these days! I understand it when cheap is the objective, but some of these are pricy!
Oh seriously FFS!!!
Come on!!!
Really????? Honestly?????
A quarter of a MILLION POUNDS!!!!!!!!????????????????
I could install a full on vinyl cutting system WITH mastering facilities for a TENTH of that.
Seriously folk need to know this - these prices are just utterly greed-fuelled and ENTIRELY outrageous!!!
The machinery I use daily in my job is at worst around 50 times the quality of this and around one tenth of the cost!
For the record - I play back and master unique recordings on machinery that is now entirely obsolete.
This has to be a joke right?? Make some machinery from components sourced for around £90.00 in China and then add 3 zeros to the purchase price??
Seriously the equipment that recordings are made and mastered on can be actuallly purchased for less than a tenth of this and is of CONSIDERABLY higher sophistication and quality!
The "HiFi" industry has become a parody of itself now.
Junk the TT, expensive amps and digital bits. Replace with a competent 2nd hand £2-4K digital front end straight into some 2nd hand £4K power amps, with wise choices, mind you, and I bet you'd be close and amazingly possibly better with really good choices,
It isn't too hard to see through high prices. Let's face it, an Ariel Atom goes pretty fast, for way less than some esoteric motors.
I have heard these speakers sounding fantastic using a Devialet amp.
walpurgis
27-10-2013, 21:43
I believe a pair of Wilson Audio Alexandria speakers will cost you getting on for a quarter of a million on their own! :eyebrows:
Junk the TT, expensive amps and digital bits. Replace with a competent 2nd hand £2-4K digital front end straight into some 2nd hand £4K power amps, with wise choices, mind you, and I bet you'd be close and amazingly possibly better with really good choices,
.
I love the implication that it is possible to buy an incompetent 2nd hand £4K digital front end. ;) Seriously, why not replace it with a £40 2nd hand cd player off of eBay whose presentation you like? By Grabthar's Hammer! What a savings!
I have heard these speakers sounding fantastic using a Devialet amp.
Exactly. Not £4K but 2nd hand I suspect not far off.
I love the implication that it is possible to buy an incompetent 2nd hand £4K digital front end. ;) Seriously, why not replace it with a £40 2nd hand cd player off of eBay whose presentation you like? By Grabthar's Hammer! What a savings!
Seriously, if you can find one for £40 quid that sounds good to you through the Magico's, go for it! I suspect you'll be either lucky or hard of hearing, though... LOL!
I always wonder who can afford these systems in the UK. My guess is the market quite low
I guess most of us will always look at the best SPPV in regards system building, the good news is its possible to do this without spending crazy money
SPPV is in the eye of the beholder. If I won the lottery, I would spent a substantial amount on hi-fi to buy the very best system I could assemble (and a room to put it in). Why? Because I could, and because music will always be a high priority in my life.
Surely though, Martin, you'd still want to spend the money intelligently and seek 'the biggest bang for your buck'?
I don't think it would matter how much money I had - I would still baulk at dropping, say, £27k on a CD transport, when I *know* that I'm paying WAY over the odds for more than simply out-and-out sound quality. It would just go against the grain for me, no matter how wealthy I was.
For example, I can afford £75 for a Lacoste polo shirt, but instead choose to buy them from M&S, for £20, because minus the badge, the quality is just the same - and so it often the case with hi-fi equipment.
Honestly, if I won the lottery, I'd spend more on a better and bigger room to put my current system in (i.e. by moving to a bigger house), and crucially on music (jeez, just imagine all the vinyl I could buy!! :eek:), than on any more gear.
Outside of maybe a pair of JBL Everests, and possibly another Copper amp, to bi-amp them, together with a couple of more T/Ts (of the vintage variety - a TD124 and an EMT), I can't think of anything else I'd really want, hi-fi-wise - and furthermore, all those items are already on my 'to do' list anyway within the next 5 years (including the house move), without the need for any lottery win.
Marco.
Surely though, Martin, you'd still want to spend the money intelligently and seek 'the biggest bang for your buck'?
No, if I won the lottery I'd have more money than I could ever spend. I would buy the best hi-fi components I could find (with synergy, of course) to assemble the best system I was capable of creating. I did also mention the room, i.e. house, to put it in. Why would I care about SPPV and why would I worry about how much it cost? It would be piddly compared with, say, a £50M win.
You can't take money with you when you die, and I don't want much left over.
jandl100
28-10-2013, 08:01
I'd still box-swap. There ain't no such beasties as the "best hifi components" - different, yes, best, no.
"Best for me".
Oh, and I wouldn't necessarily be buying new; for instance, you can't buy Infinity IRS Mk. V speakers any more, but I'd sure like to acquire a set.
There's plenty of folk living in London who can afford this level of equipment these days and good luck to them. They'll visit the Audio lounge in Wigmore St. or similar, drop a few hundred grand and allow them to do all the work. No hassle. They won't be visiting hifi forums because this isn't a hobby for them - just another purchase. Such well heeled individuals don't waste their time hunting out the 'best sound for pound'. The idea is irrelevant to them. Probably didn't go to Windsor either.
jandl100
28-10-2013, 08:12
"Best for me".
Oh, and I wouldn't necessarily be buying new; for instance, you can't buy Infinity IRS Mk. V speakers any more, but I'd sure like to acquire a set.
Aha - so not "the best" - but a selection of tasty things, each with its own sound.
You'd turn into a box-swapper! :lol:
Seriously, if you can find one for £40 quid that sounds good to you through the Magico's, go for it! I suspect you'll be either lucky or hard of hearing, though... LOL!
I have several that would sound just fine through the Magicos or any other loudspeaker. Why wouldn't they? Competent digital replay is very cheap to implement, unlike analogue. Now you might have a preference for something that is voiced differently but in terms of competence there is no difference at all.
You'd turn into a box-swapper! :lol:
Nah! Couldn't stand that, I like my system to be stable ;)
MikeMusic
28-10-2013, 10:03
No, if I won the lottery I'd have more money than I could ever spend. I would buy the best hi-fi components I could find (with synergy, of course) to assemble the best system I was capable of creating. I did also mention the room, i.e. house, to put it in. Why would I care about SPPV and why would I worry about how much it cost? It would be piddly compared with, say, a £50M win.
You can't take money with you when you die, and I don't want much left over.
Very big house.
A few different hifi rooms, mix and match kit
Builder and electrician on site to tend to every whim
:)
I have never won the lottery. Maybe I should buy a ticket :scratch:
Personally, if I had £250,000 to squander on a hifi system, I'd consider myself very fortunate but there's no way I'd part with half of that on the hifi as it just isn't necessary. I'd instead put under half that amount into a purpose built music room extension, properly treated and with it's own consumer unit. I'd then spend perhaps £30K on a complete system, more than likely all of it used and if I could afford all of that, then in conscience, what was left would be donated to a deserving charity where the money would actually do some good. £250K is not hifi reality, it's big business/greed for those who have more money than sense.
Franke, Anne and myself would just like to say a big thank you to every one that came and listened to the TAD presentation at the show, we enjoyed the new show experience a great deal and speaking with many of exhibitors they too had the same thoughts.
Over the two days we performed 24 full demonstrations, many times the room was over subscribed and we had a limit of twenty two people in room on both days we did not finish until 7-8pm on the Saturday evening we let loose a bit with some ultra good recordings and a new streaming device which the audience appreciated, many of whom had come back for a second / third listen.
We had very little time to visit the other rooms during the show, although we did listen to a good few systems on set up day. The overall standard of sound quality was much better from our perspective and with the ability to 'taste' such brands as Vitus, Wisdom, Ayre, Mod-wright, Naim, Focal etc gave the public a chance to savor these products to which normally they would not have had the chance.
Much has been mentioned here regarding the cost of the some of the items on display, the show was billed as a high end show to which you would expect to see and hear equipment that you would not see in your average high street audio retailer so it should not come as a surprise that many item on display cost well into five figures in the same way your high end car dealer has a separate area of his showroom for the M /AMG/XR series / RS ranges of vehicles.
That said you can make a quality sound for a lot less and I would never dispute this, it is a question perception / desirability / sheer performance requirement that the individual is looking for.
The timed demonstrations (with the exception of a couple of people) were very welcome, it also give us (the distributors /manufacturers) time to properly introduce the product and its concepts as well as giving you a chance to listen and digest rather that people just coming in and out of the room all of the time and disrupting your session.
So once again thank you for all of the positive comments and feedback we have received over the course of the show it was a genuinely good atmosphere and nice to see a good crowd who appreciate music.
Tony
Personally, if I had £250,000 to squander on a hifi system, I'd consider myself very fortunate but there's no way I'd part with half of that on the hifi as it just isn't necessary. I'd instead put under half that amount into a purpose built music room extension, properly treated and with it's own consumer unit. I'd then spend perhaps £30K on a complete system, more than likely all of it used and if I could afford all of that, then in conscience, what was left would be donated to a deserving charity where the money would actually do some good. £250K is not hifi reality, it's big business/greed for those who have more money than sense.
My goodness, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything so much in my life (and not just the bit in bold, but especially that)...
+1 (with bells, knobs and flashing Santa hats on)!! :exactly:
The fact is, even if I were a millionaire, I'd not suddenly lose the common sense (and desire to obtain value for money) that I was born with.
Marco.
MikeMusic
28-10-2013, 11:31
My goodness, I don't think I've ever agreed with anything as much in my life (and not just the bit in bold, but especially that)...
+1 (with bells, knobs and flashing Santa hats on)!! :exactly:
The fact is, even if I were a millionaire, I'd not suddenly lose the common sense (and desire to obtain value for money) that I was born with.
Marco.
Nor would I. Founder member of cheapskates r us.
But Martin was talking lottery money in the millions that would enable you to buy anything you wanted - after auditioning of course.
The first thing would be a big house surely, then building work commences on the music rooms :)
Those Infinity speakers would be on my list too.
Oddly enough a flash motor would not, but I would sample a few very nice racing bikes
That's enough about dreaming........
The great thing about being here is the value for money aspects of the kit most of us have
I'm certain many uniformed punters with loads of money have spent a huge chunk of cash for a setup that isn't as good as many of the assembled
No, if I won the lottery I'd have more money than I could ever spend. I would buy the best hi-fi components I could find (with synergy, of course) to assemble the best system I was capable of creating. I did also mention the room, i.e. house, to put it in. Why would I care about SPPV and why would I worry about how much it cost? It would be piddly compared with, say, a £50M win.
You can't take money with you when you die, and I don't want much left over.
I completely agree with your last sentence, Martin. However, whilst I know that we can all depart this earth at any time, at 48 (and with perfect health at the moment) I would hope to be around for quite a while yet, and so even if I won £50m in the lottery, I'd still be careful of how I spent it.
However, that's not really the point here. The point for me is that, even if I were a multi-millionaire, after becoming a lottery winner, I'm not going to all of a sudden throw out of the window the values which are important to me - and most importantly, in terms of hi-fi, lose the knowledge I have gained that enables me to judge what is and isn't a 'rip-off', TO ME.
Therefore, no matter how much money I had, I would always use that knowledge to my advantage - and so, in that respect, dropping six figures on any part of my system just wouldn't happen, for the reasons Paul has outlined.
As Robin said (and this is it in a nutshell):
There's plenty of folk living in London who can afford this level of equipment these days and good luck to them. They'll visit the Audio lounge in Wigmore St. or similar, drop a few hundred grand and allow them to do all the work. No hassle. They won't be visiting hifi forums because this isn't a hobby for them - just another purchase. Such well heeled individuals don't waste their time hunting out the 'best sound for pound'. The idea is irrelevant to them.
Just because, as a lottery winner, I'm all of a sudden a multi-millionaire, unlike other millionaires (or very wealthy people, for whom audio is not a passion), it wouldn't change the fact that hi-fi is NOT just another purchase or that IT IS A HOBBY for me - and so my hi-fi purchases would be based upon the same judgement criteria as I used before I had all my millions.
YMMV.
Marco.
I have several that would sound just fine through the Magicos or any other loudspeaker. Why wouldn't they? Competent digital replay is very cheap to implement, unlike analogue. Now you might have a preference for something that is voiced differently but in terms of competence there is no difference at all.
I'm not sure how you define competence - if tech specs probably yes.
I know it has taken me ages to find a digital front end that I like enough to want to keep. It wasn't cheap though but I did try that route.
Let's face it - cheap is good.
It is also possible that there maybe that £40 ebay bargain I'd like the sound of better. I think it'd take a lot of failed £40 attempts to beat what I have though.
What do you have for £40 that you rate?
It's interesting how hot under the collar some of you are getting over the concept of having limitless funds to construct a hi-fi system of your dreams.
I've said nothing about how much I'd spend, but you automatically think I'd lose sight of everything I've ever learned and just buy the most expensive components out there! I can assure you that the most expensive component of my dream system would actually be the room/house I'd put it in. Secondly, I would construct the system just as I always have, to make it work harmoniously. Third, if I wanted a particular component that is off the scale price-wise but fits in with my needs, I wouldn't hesitate. Not for a second.
By the way, the very FIRST thing I would do if I won the lottery would be to pop over to the Basingstoke Hospital and offer them a new MRI or CT scanner or whatever else they need as I cannot thank them enough for what they have done for me over the years.
It's interesting how hot under the collar some of you are getting over the concept of having limitless funds to construct a hi-fi system of your dreams.
I've said nothing about how much I'd spend, but you automatically think I'd lose sight of everything I've ever learned and just buy the most expensive components out there! I can assure you that the most expensive component of my dream system would actually be the room/house I'd put it in.
With house prices the way they are in London/the South East, you'd probably only have a few measly hundred thousand left over for hifi anyway.
Beobloke
28-10-2013, 12:52
...even if I won £50m in the lottery, I'd still be careful of how I spent it..
Pah. People with opinions like that, or people who say "ooh I wouldn't know what to do with that sort of money" should either be banned from entering, or have their winnings taken away form them and given to people like me who know exactly what they'd do with £50m! :D
Just because, as a lottery winner, I'm all of a sudden a multi-millionaire, unlike other millionaires (or very wealthy people, for whom audio is not a passion), it wouldn't change the fact that hi-fi is NOT just another purchase or that IT IS A HOBBY for me - and so my hi-fi purchases would be based upon the same judgement criteria as I used before I had all my millions.
Mine would too. Trouble is, the best speakers I have ever heard in my entire life cost £215,000...
Moving back to the show, it sounds like I missed a good one and was gutted not to have been able to attend. Stripping wallpaper and clearing outbuildings in preparation for the arrival of the builders next week to knock bits of our house down came a very poor second in my list of "ways I'd like to spend Saturday"! :(
MikeMusic
28-10-2013, 13:00
Third, if I wanted a particular component that is off the scale price-wise but fits in with my needs, I wouldn't hesitate. Not for a second.
Then there's that unique, original pressing of Jo Bloggs and the Bashers going for £2500 on Discogs
:)
I'm not sure how you define competence - if tech specs probably yes.
I know it has taken me ages to find a digital front end that I like enough to want to keep. It wasn't cheap though but I did try that route.
Let's face it - cheap is good.
It is also possible that there maybe that £40 ebay bargain I'd like the sound of better. I think it'd take a lot of failed £40 attempts to beat what I have though.
What do you have for £40 that you rate?
I'm guessing it would take alot of failed eBay attempts - I was just making the point that you could plug any CD player, even a decently constructed personal CD player into those megabucks systems and it would sound perfectly fine - no -one would be running for the exits. The difference in quality between cheap digital and expensive digital is very small, and less important than the presentation or voicing of the component in question.
If you want to try a good cheapy just for kicks (or to prove me wrong ;)) look for a Sony CDP791E, I've never encountered anyone who didn't like it's presentation.
MikeMusic
28-10-2013, 13:02
Let's face it - cheap is good.
Cheap is good if it's good
Good and cheap - that's the one
We've had some materials and suppliers over the years that were cheap.
No good at all.
It's interesting how hot under the collar some of you are getting over the concept of having limitless funds to construct a hi-fi system of your dreams.
I've said nothing about how much I'd spend, but you automatically think I'd lose sight of everything I've ever learned and just buy the most expensive components out there! I can assure you that the most expensive component of my dream system would actually be the room/house I'd put it in. Secondly, I would construct the system just as I always have, to make it work harmoniously. Third, if I wanted a particular component that is off the scale price-wise but fits in with my needs, I wouldn't hesitate. Not for a second.
By the way, the very FIRST thing I would do if I won the lottery would be to pop over to the Basingstoke Hospital and offer them a new MRI or CT scanner or whatever else they need as I cannot thank them enough for what they have done for me over the years.
Lol... No-one's getting hot under the collar, mate - certainly not me. Please don't interpret when I embolden or capitalise words, that it is me being angry. I'm doing it simply to highlight/stress those words, as they are key to the point I'm making :)
I applaud your charitable gesture, regarding the MRI or CT scanner, and I would do the same. However, the reason I responded the way I did was because when I asked you this question:
"Surely though, Martin, you'd still want to spend the money intelligently and seek 'the biggest bang for your buck'"? You responded thus:
No, if I won the lottery I'd have more money than I could ever spend
...which I took to mean that you'd not spend the money intelligently, and instead since you had plenty of it, would just buy what you wanted, regardless, which appears to be the opposite of what you're saying here:
...but you automatically think I'd lose sight of everything I've ever learned and just buy the most expensive components out there!
;)
Anyway, I know what you mean now! :eyebrows:
Incidentally, high-quality, judiciously modified, vintage equipment (which punches WAY above its price, sonically) will always feature heavily in any system I own, regardless of if I had the same wealth as the Sultan of Brunei - simply because that's for me what makes owing a hi-fi system REWARDING and FUN!!
Marco.
If you'll allow Infinity IRS Mk. V speakers into the vintage category, then I'll buy vintage!
Hi Adam,
Pah. People with opinions like that, or people who say "ooh I wouldn't know what to do with that sort of money" should either be banned from entering, or have their winnings taken away form them and given to people like me who know exactly what they'd do with £50m! :D
Lol... Oh, trust me, I would know precisely what to do with £50m, but very little of it would be spent on hi-fi equipment! I have other enjoyments in life which would benefit more from such a financial injection.
Mine would too. Trouble is, the best speakers I have ever heard in my entire life cost £215,000...
Hehehe... Thing is, in all honesty, I've yet to hear a pair of speakers that I would consider changing my Lockwoods for.
That's not to say there aren't any out there (I'm sure there are), but so far I haven't heard any - and that includes listening to six-figure sum models at hi-fi shows in near-million pound systems. I suspect that, given my audio proclivities, a pair of JBL Everest DD66000s would hit the spot nicely, but I'd need to audition them first with my kit, in an appropriate room - and how much are those, £50k?
Therefore, I'd still have quite a lot of change left over......for a few nice cars, a bigger house, massive music collection, containing all the stuff I've ever wanted on vinyl and a room big enough to store it in, a huge wine cellar containing all the finest known 'old world' vintages, travelling the world while staying at luxury hotels, etc, etc, etc, not to mention buying Del whatever she wanted, too!! ;)
Marco.
Buying a detached house far away from any neighbours would be my first priority should I have a big lottery win, that way I could play rock music at 'sensible' levels... :lol:
Got one of dem already! :ner:
;)
Marco.
If you'll allow Infinity IRS Mk. V speakers into the vintage category, then I'll buy vintage!
Lol - I'll think about it! :D
What intrigues me, and I've always meant to ask you, is why you haven't applied the same 'equipment selection methodology' (let's call it that), with the rest of your system as you have done with your turntable? In your main system, the Techy exists as the sole 'highly tweaked', SPPV-based component, whereas with me, I've extended that principle/selection methodology throughout my system.
Is that because you only consider that approach viable on a T/T (or source component) and that different rules apply elsewhere, or because with the rest of your system you prefer owning something 'shiny and new', which is recognisably 'high-end' - or for some entirely different valid reason?
I'm genuinely curious about this, mate! :)
Marco.
If you'll allow Infinity IRS Mk. V speakers into the vintage category, then I'll buy vintage!
Hi Martin
If you are seriously interested in pair give me a ring I have some at my disposal. Can remember how many emit tweeters are in them is 12 or 18 per unit :lol:
In a previous life we used to donate a set figure to charity every year and ask our employee's how they would like the money to spent by placing named charities into a hat and drawing out three and splitting the funds between them.
It nice to see a healthy debate going on especially where a show is concerned.
What intrigues me, and I've always meant to ask you, is why you haven't applied the same 'equipment selection methodology' (let's call it that), with the rest of your system as you have done with your turntable? Your Techy exists as the sole 'highly tweaked', SPPV-based component, whereas with me, I've extended that principle/selection methodology throughout my system.
Knowing how I go about selecting equipment is one thing, putting it into a process that makes sense to anyone else is another matter entirely. You may as well ask me why I choose the music I do. What I can tell you is that I feel I have reached exactly the right path and pretty much the right components that, when combined, give me great sound and, to my mind, good SPPV. Another way of answering your question is: if I had the lot go up in smoke, would I buy it all again? The answer is - yes! I don't think I could economise and have the same sound, short of buying the same components in the used market.
As for thinking that I only tweak or apply SPPV to my turntable, far from it. I have done much in the way of cabling, supports, room treatment, power supplies, mains treatment etc. that have affected some or all of my system. Look at the Revelation Audio silver DC cable I bought recently for my Pass Labs preamp. Look at my projects around PSUs for the Beresford BM2, Logitech Touch etc. What I won't do is open up a component where I know I cannot add any value because I don't have the skills and/or knowledge. No way am I going to improve on what Charlie Hansen or Nelson Pass or John Franks have done with my solid state gear, for instance. In those cases, the only path to improvement is to upgrade to the next component in their product range. Thankfully, I've reached a level where I'm very happy with their performance. But I also think they are close to the pinnacle of excellence otherwise I wouldn't have owned them for so long (12 years in the case of the Chord).
It's really about my passion for music. None of this has anything to do with 'shiny and new' or being high end. You should know that this is a lonely pursuit and, for the most part, none of my family or friends give a sh*t about hi-fi. Who would I show it off to? :lol:
If you are seriously interested in pair give me a ring I have some at my disposal.
Bloody hell, Tony, can I get back to you in 3-4 years' time? I don't have the means to even house them let alone afford them, but I could sell the children child in the meantime.
In a previous life we used to donate a set figure to charity every year and ask our employee's how they would like the money to spent by placing named charities into a hat and drawing out three and splitting the funds between them.
We do this at my place of work, with the students voting on the charity of the year. Wear it Pink day is always fun, with the staff going even more overboard than the girls.
MikeMusic
28-10-2013, 15:32
Bloody hell, Tony, can I get back to you in 3-4 years' time? I don't have the means to even house them let alone afford them, but I could sell the children child in the meantime.
But, but but
you need who knows how many amplifiers too - How many is it ?
Plus a more of a concert hall than a room !
But, but, but...
...have you HEARD them?
pure sound
28-10-2013, 16:11
But, but, but...
...have you HEARD them?
I have. Do you have a fondness for singers with mouths that are 8 feet wide or indeed acoustic guitars the size of a van? :)
SPPV is in the eye of the beholder. If I won the lottery, I would spent a substantial amount on hi-fi to buy the very best system I could assemble (and a room to put it in). Why? Because I could, and because music will always be a high priority in my life.
I agree Martin. As far as I can remember I don't think I have -ever- bought a car for more than my hifi, I use it far more and it is of far more value to me. In fact if I could have either a car or a hifi I'd be taking busses.
Hi Martin,
Thanks for the detailed reply, which explains things nicely and outlines your position. It was just always something I wondered about. This bit, for me, essentially explains why the approach we have for the rest of our systems is different:
What I won't do is open up a component where I know I cannot add any value because I don't have the skills and/or knowledge. No way am I going to improve on what Charlie Hansen or Nelson Pass or John Franks have done with my solid state gear, for instance.
I totally get that, but of course valve designs are essentially much simpler and so there is more scope for 'tweakery'.
It should be noted, however, that the basic circuit Glenn designed is still the same in my preamp, although it is now surrounded by more expensive and capable components, prohibited from use by the designer, due to cost constraints, thus resulting in me hearing more of what the circuit can do. Therefore, I have not attempted either to fundamentally "improve on" what Glenn has done, but merely given full reign to the sonic capabilities of his design, by releasing its latent potential.
As for the Copper amp, any modifications to it have strictly been approved and carried out by Anthony, so the same (as above) also applies there.
With regard to my speakers, again the modifications there have been fundamentally about allowing the excellence of the original design to shine, sonically, in a way that wasn't possible when the speakers were first built - and ditto with my Sony transport and DAC. I firmly believe that combining the best of old and new technologies can produce some of the best sounds that one is likely to hear in audio.
That's exactly why I do things the way I do, not because (as some people may think) I'm a 'fanboy' of valves, D/D turntables, or whatever. If it could be proven to my ears that another (more modern or different) approach produced sonically superior results, then I would adopt that approach instantly and reject what I'm doing now. So far that hasn't happened, but I shall remain, as ever, 'all ears'...
It's really about my passion for music. None of this has anything to do with 'shiny and new' or being high end. You should know that this is a lonely pursuit and, for the most part, none of my family or friends give a sh*t about hi-fi. Who would I show it off to? :lol:
Hehehehe....! Fortunately, I have quite a few friends (all of whom live locally) who are into music and hi-fi seriously, so I'm lucky in that respect, as well as having a wife who loves music and high-fidelity sound (although not so much the equipment side of things) as much as I do.
Mind you, Ruth strikes me as someone who loves her music and cares about how it sounds too, so your "lonely pursuit" is not quite as lonely as you're making out! ;)
Marco.
I have. Do you have a fondness for singers with mouths that are 8 feet wide or indeed acoustic guitars the size of a van? :)
A true magnifying glass, then! As I've said before, the scale presented by some systems is way larger than most unamplified acoustic instruments present when played solo.
Even my little Mark & Daniel speakers do that with my own acoustic guitar recordings. I don't dislike that, though. But I guess the huge Infinitys/Soundlabs/Apogees take it way too far in a sense.
BTW anyone interested in smaller Infinitys - you can get replacement Emit units from Graz, the Apogee ribbon man. I guess that's a plug, but a pretty useless one. Not many using them, though Jerry had a pair at some stage.
If you want to try a good cheapy just for kicks (or to prove me wrong ;)) look for a Sony CDP791E, I've never encountered anyone who didn't like it's presentation.
Damn none on ebay at the mo... I was gonna buy one for a giggle - or a shock. LOL.
hifi_dave
28-10-2013, 16:42
Guy,
The worst speaker system I have heard for this, by a country mile was in the studio of Robertson-Aikman (SME). His stacked arrays of multiple Quad ESL speakers reproducing his favoured operatic works had massive voices spread across 20 feet or more. This was fine with full orchestra but at soon as the singing started it was all too much.
I have. Do you have a fondness for singers with mouths that are 8 feet wide or indeed acoustic guitars the size of a van? :)
No, and memory may be playing tricks on me but I don't remember them doing that. They were more like my speakers, focussed but with huge physical scale and knockout dynamics, only more so.
In fact if I could have either a car or a hifi I'd be taking busses.
SNAP!! I have said this on many occasions.
Mind you, Ruth strikes me as someone who loves her music and cares about how it sounds too, so your "lonely pursuit" is not quite as lonely as you're making out!
Mmm, she does like her music but stops short of my level of involvement - or anywhere close.
As for Ayre, Pass and Chord, they are already chock full of high quality components. Even as an electronics engineer I could not look inside one and identify what to change to make an improvement and wouldn't even try.
SNAP!! I have said this on many occasions.
Interesting... That surprises me, Martin, given that you're somewhat of a 'petrolhead'.
For me, no chance, as I wouldn't be seen dead taking a bus!! :eek: :nono: Having a car is central to the lifestyle that we enjoy, simply because it allows us the freedom to do what we want when we want - and one cannot put a price on that.
If if I had to sacrifice anything, then I'd downgrade my system way before I'd give up having a car. My music collection is THE most important thing, which I'd never give up, so I'd simply put up with inferior sound.
Ultimately, the lifestyle and convenience that owning a car affords us is way more important than any hi-fi system.
Marco.
As for Ayre, Pass and Chord, they are already chock full of high quality components. Even as an electronics engineer I could not look inside one and identify what to change to make an improvement and wouldn't even try.
Sure, but it's different with valve amps, especially ones using point-to-point wiring (no PCBs), in very simple circuits (easily understood by any qualified audio engineer), where component upgrading and/or tube rolling is a doddle! :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
28-10-2013, 17:55
But, but, but...
...have you HEARD them?
No and I probably can't imagine either
Truly lottery money required surely
MikeMusic
28-10-2013, 17:56
I agree Martin. As far as I can remember I don't think I have -ever- bought a car for more than my hifi, I use it far more and it is of far more value to me. In fact if I could have either a car or a hifi I'd be taking busses.
I'll be cycling.......
I'll try that next time we go on holiday to Italy (and want to return with tons of goodies)!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
pure sound
28-10-2013, 18:43
Guy,
The worst speaker system I have heard for this, by a country mile was in the studio of Robertson-Aikman (SME). His stacked arrays of multiple Quad ESL speakers reproducing his favoured operatic works had massive voices spread across 20 feet or more. This was fine with full orchestra but at soon as the singing started it was all too much.
I remember visiting SME to collect my V & did hear that system. It did indeed sound large but not to the same ludicrous degree as the IRS system made things. It was just comical. Not because it was a 'magnifying glass' more because the driver integration was simply hopeless :)
hifi_dave
28-10-2013, 19:24
I remember visiting SME to collect my V & did hear that system. It did indeed sound large but not to the same ludicrous degree as the IRS system made things. It was just comical. Not because it was a 'magnifying glass' more because the driver integration was simply hopeless :).
When I visited there were 16 ESL57 at the front and 12 at the rear for 'ambience'. They were driven by a number of Krells and at high levels, the clipping gave me brain ache. He did reduce the number of ESLs at a later date, probably before you heard the system ?
The Grand Wazoo
28-10-2013, 19:31
He switched to '63s - there were 2 pairs, with each channel having 2 set at 90 degrees to each other - one facing the listener and one behind it firing across the soundstage.
It did indeed sound large but not to the same ludicrous degree as the IRS system made things. It was just comical. Not because it was a 'magnifying glass' more because the driver integration was simply hopeless :)
From what I understand, that sounds like an earlier model than the Mk. V. Arnie Nudell did a lot of work to integrate the drivers as he worked through the updates.
When I visited there were 16 ESL57 at the front and 12 at the rear for 'ambience'. They were driven by a number of Krells and at high levels, the clipping gave me brain ache.
Sounds like my idea of hell! :mental:
Were there any sparks coming from the Quads? I seen that happen once when a pair of 'statics at one of the Owston DIY fests were being driven by a flea-powered SET valve amp, and I asked the owner to turn the system up (from its previous 'whisper-loud level'). The ensuing 'Guy Fawkes' display, when clipping quickly set in, was hilarious!! :D
It's one of the reasons why I'd never use electrostatics, as I'd never be sure if the system had enough headroom to cope with my demands.
Marco.
hifi_dave
28-10-2013, 20:11
Sounds like my idea of hell! :mental:
Were there any sparks coming from the Quads? I seen that happen once when a pair of 'statics at one of the Owston DIY fests were being driven by a flea-powered SET valve amp, and I asked the owner to turn the system up (from its previous 'whisper-loud level'). The ensuing 'Guy Fawkes' display, when clipping quickly set in, was hilarious!! :D
It's one of the reasons why I'd never use electrostatics, as I'd never be sure if the system had enough headroom to cope with my demands.
Marco.
No sparks but then the speakers were behind enormous drapes, as you would see in a theatre. The whole enormous room was decorated like a small Opera House, right down to a group of 'Blackamores' (is it ?) holding flaming torches.
pure sound
28-10-2013, 20:57
.
When I visited there were 16 ESL57 at the front and 12 at the rear for 'ambience'. They were driven by a number of Krells and at high levels, the clipping gave me brain ache. He did reduce the number of ESLs at a later date, probably before you heard the system ?
Oh, I didnt hear that set up. Sounds amusing. The set-up I heard just had two pairs.
pure sound
28-10-2013, 21:00
From what I understand, that sounds like an earlier model than the Mk. V. Arnie Nudell did a lot of work to integrate the drivers as he worked through the updates.
It definitely was an IRS V set up at a CES in Chicago in the late 80's. Good sized room too.
jandl100
30-10-2013, 08:46
It's interesting that someone's achievement of their cost no object dream system (like ARA's grand opera room or even Martin lusting after a pair of enormous Infinity IRS V) would be found fault with, or even rejected completely, by others.
I suspect this is true of anyone's dream system. Very personal things, hifis!
pure sound
30-10-2013, 10:33
Indeed. I'm sure plenty would find fault with my system of choice even if I could ever realise such a thing. It doesn't really matter though. Ultimately it only has to please the individual concerned, not everyone else.
Thought I'd take the opportunity of posting a pic of your system here (shamelessly stolen from pfm):
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/2359/qvf8.jpg
Pity no-one here got to hear it......
Marco.
pure sound
30-10-2013, 16:20
Close up of TT & electronics. (again, pic courtesy of PMac).
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g322/gtpe/stst_zpscf85e55e.jpg (http://s1096.photobucket.com/user/gtpe/media/stst_zpscf85e55e.jpg.html)
I ended up using the SME arm because HiFi News still had the STST arm in for mechanical testing. Not sure what that involves. I hope it comes back in 1 piece!
The deck actually works very well with the SME, far better than I could ever get the SP10 to in either of my plinths.
Ammonite Audio
30-10-2013, 17:06
Nice carpet!
It's interesting that someone's achievement of their cost no object dream system (like ARA's grand opera room or even Martin lusting after a pair of enormous Infinity IRS V) would be found fault with, or even rejected completely, by others.
That's a good observation, Jerry. In some ways, I already have dream components that I've lusted after (like my Dynavector arm) and in others, it's very unlikely that I'll ever acquire them (like the IRS). It's fun having objects of lust, however (!) and very personal as you say.
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g322/gtpe/stst_zpscf85e55e.jpg (http://s1096.photobucket.com/user/gtpe/media/stst_zpscf85e55e.jpg.html)
I ended up using the SME arm because HiFi News still had the STST arm in for mechanical testing. Not sure what that involves. I hope it comes back in 1 piece!
The deck actually works very well with the SME, far better than I could ever get the SP10 to in either of my plinths.
Lovely looking T/T, Guy. Aesthetically, it ticks all the right boxes for me: elegant yet purposeful looking, but understated and (most importantly) devoid of bling! I also love the 'chunky' looking platter, which is something I miss with the Techy.
Maybe some time I could pop down to your place, bring my T/T with me, and see how things compare? :)
Marco.
Bake-off, with the STST, now arranged for during the Xmas hols! :)
Marco.
BD-Audio
31-10-2013, 18:36
Hi Marco, I've heard it a few times now and obviously for an extended period during the show. It's a VERY competent turntable for sure.
Hi Jack,
No doubt it is. I admire its design priciples, so it'll be very interesting to have a listen to it in my own system :)
Marco.
Thought I'd take the opportunity of posting a pic of your system here (shamelessly stolen from pfm):
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/2359/qvf8.jpg
Pity no-one here got to hear it......
Marco.
I heard it! I thought I reported my opinion of the sound (and my admiration for the STST) near the beginning of the thread. Must be going senile...
I am biased, since I am a fan (and owner) of Tune audio speakers. I thought this system the best VFM I heard, though I didn't hear it with the CD player, which cost less than 1/10 the price of the TT/arm/SUT/phono stage...
Edit - just checked, it was post 112, nobody got past the prices from the Magico room I suppose.
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