Acoustic Research and Naim.

[Martyn Miles]

Not two names which are normally associated with each other, but I have discovered something interesting. Well, at least to me...
I'm a fan of the folk group Fotheringay and recently found my vinyl copy of their album. The CD of the same is often in my player, a Naim CD 3.5. Having a quiet moment, I gave the LP a spin on my old AR XA t'table. For once (!) I was concentrating completely on the music. None of the usual distractions in the house.
After a few minutes I noticed how involved I was getting. Really listening... Why, I wondered, it's just an LP of music I know very well. After listening completely to side one of the LP, I switched on the CD player and started listening to the music again.
No doubt about it, the LP had a sense of involvement which was missing from the CD. Being a little cynical about some aspects of audio reproduction I pondered on the following. They were both older recordings, made in the 70s, so was the remastering of the original recording to CD influenced by the process employed ?
So I put on a modern Classical LP recording and its CD equivalent. Same result as with the Fotheringay recordings. Yes, I had discovered some aspect of audio reproduction I'd never noticed before.
Must listen further...

[Rare Bird]

The AR 'XA' Turntable, The original AR Amp & 'LST' speakers was one great system

[istari_knight]

Yup, AR really knew what they were doing back then :thumbsup:

[DSJR]

It may well be the mastering to CD, which will give a more 'literal' delivery. Thing is, vinyl adds that 'something' that often makes a recording just that much more rewarding to listen to and through and quite often it was this 'something' that was regarded as the final bit of 'mastering' for the end listener. Just my view after years of thought on the matter, but it seems to make sense to me and I've read it to be said by producers of the time.

The old XA with an XLM II or III in it was an excellent way to hear records. The high arm friction, coupled with quite low mass and the correct dressing of the signal wires around the bearing assembly gave perfect tracking at 1.25g or so, the supplied plastic balance was very accurate (now sold by Rec-O-Cut in the US) and I think some UK examples of the XB came with the Shure 91-ED, another goodie for music listening..

[wee tee cee]

I have a copy of Solid Air on CD late 80s.......the remastered version I bought sounds noticeably inferior- almost like the noise reduction you got with cassette switching the dolby filters on ( baby out with the bath water!)

[Audioman]

Irrespective of the make of CD player and record deck the differences described by the OP are typical of vinyl v CD formats. This is why I have stuck with vinyl and regard CD as a necessary evil to hear all the music I want.

[DSJR]

Problem can be this - not in your case Martyn I think -

The warm and friendly tones of a typical vinyl player/cartridge system often need/needed a lively and 'fast' sounding speaker to balance out, speakers from the 'BBC Legacy' mould sounding more fruity and soft than ever sometimes (I'm trying not to be specific here so please bear with me on this). Play any neutral source through this and it could shout and bite one's head off. On the other hand, old Spendors and Rogers speakers took on a whole different sonic 'life' when CD appeared and that's one reason I can still enjoy my old BC2's without tone controls or any added eq..

Martyn, what amp do you have? I know you're very much enjoying your vintage Harbeth HL's (we sold loads of these with Meridian 100 series amps and LP12/Systemdek with Hadcock arm and the then popular Entre cartridge), so unless there's summat wrong with them (unlikely), you may be able to fine tune the CD player with a better interconnect (if you're using the weedy old Chord Chrysalis interconnect for example, which only used one tiny wire per channel for signal 'hot')

[Martyn Miles]

Problem can be this - not in your case Martyn I think -

The warm and friendly tones of a typical vinyl player/cartridge system often need/needed a lively and 'fast' sounding speaker to balance out, speakers from the 'BBC Legacy' mould sounding more fruity and soft than ever sometimes (I'm trying not to be specific here so please bear with me on this). Play any neutral source through this and it could shout and bite one's head off. On the other hand, old Spendors and Rogers speakers took on a whole different sonic 'life' when CD appeared and that's one reason I can still enjoy my old BC2's without tone controls or any added eq..

Martyn, what amp do you have? I know you're very much enjoying your vintage Harbeth HLs ( we sold loads of these with Meridian 100 series amps and LP12/Systemdek with Hadcock arm and the then popular Entre cartridge), so unless there's summat wrong with them (unlikely), you may be able to fine tune the CD player with a better interconnect (if you're using the weedy old Chord Chrysalis interconnect for example, which only used one tiny wire per channel for signal 'hot')

Hello Dave.
I am using a Quad 303 ( with a passive preamp ) into my HL-P3s, not the old HL1s. For what it's worth, a NAD 9200 cartridge is in the AR XA. ( This is a NAD badged ADC cartridge )
Incidentally, I still have an Entre ( bought in 1979! ) in a Mission 774 arm on an LP12. That sounds pretty good, as you would imagine...

[Rare Bird]

Both the NAD '9100' & '9200' were good..

[Barry]

I have a Japanese CD pressing of Fotheringay (with the 'obi' band), and consider it to be superior to my vinyl copy.

[Rare Bird]

Barry:
I have a Japanese SHM-CD of the first album, bought it a few years ago.. There was an edition out a good few years before that on the Rock legend series..

[Barry]

Barry:
I have a Japanese SHM-CD of the first album, bought it a few years ago.. There was an edition out a good few years before that on the Rock legend series..

First album? I thought they only recorded one album. :scratch:

The CD I have (bought in Japan early last year) must be a recent remastering, as there are several extra tracks. Will quote the CD recording number when I find the disc.

[Rare Bird]

Hi Barry
Sorry i should have said there was a Fotheringay '2' that came out a bit back but it's recordings from back then..

[Barry]

Hi Barry
Sorry i should have said there was a Fotheringay '2' that came out a bit back but it's recordings from back then..

OK :)

[Rare Bird]

Ok looks like i have seven Bonus trks on the CD half of them live!

[The Outcast]

I always admired the late seventies/early eighties AR floorstanders. I thought they sounded terrific.

[DSJR]

Hello Dave.
I am using a Quad 303 ( with a passive preamp ) into my HL-P3s, not the old HL1s. For what it's worth, a NAD 9200 cartridge is in the AR XA. ( This is a NAD badged ADC cartridge )
Incidentally, I still have an Entre ( bought in 1979! ) in a Mission 774 arm on an LP12. That sounds pretty good, as you would imagine...

Try to find a VLM II stylus at least (or a Phase III type) and track at 1.25g or so. The NADs weren't as good as the ADC donors for whatever reason (rather dull in balance) and although the XLM II shouldn't have worked at all, it did and sounded lovely I remember (the III and Phase IV have lower compliance and would suit even better).

[Rare Bird]

The NADs weren't as good as the ADC donors for whatever reason

There's nothing wrong with those NAD carts, i used to own them.

[DSJR]

I sold 'em too :ner:

[Martyn Miles]

Hello Dave.
I am using a Quad 303 ( with a passive preamp ) into my HL-P3s, not the old HL1s. For what it's worth, a NAD 9200 cartridge is in the AR XA. ( This is a NAD badged ADC cartridge )
Incidentally, I still have an Entre ( bought in 1979! ) in a Mission 774 arm on an LP12. That sounds pretty good, as you would imagine...

As an update, I have changed my HL-P3s to P3ESRs and replaced the passive preamp. with a Quad 34. Firstly, the ESRs are SO good. I expected a
somewhat evolutionary change from the HLs when I linked up the ESRs. That vocal ' ease ' which the early HLs had appeared to be missing, replaced by a greater smoothness. I put on one of my own vocal group recordings ( made with very high quality mics. & recording equipment ) and I realised the early P3s added a subtle coloration I hadn't previously noticed. A solo voice I know well came to life.

Incidentally, I couldn't detect a change between the passive and the Quad 34.

Going back to my favourite Fotheringay recording, Sandy Denny's voice which I have heard live and unamplified, was just superb.

Speaker technology does move forward. As for the amplification side, less so I think...