View Full Version : Lampizator Level 4 Gen 4 Tube Roller's DAC
The LampSpazHater Level 4 V-Cap'd turned up yesterday.
It doesn't sound much like the L3 did. Definitely cleaner sounding than the L3 - more bass control too. An appreciably better DAC straight out of the box. Early days yet though and much tube rolling to be done.
Rectifier is 6x5, can tube roll 6829 (Greg gave me some Penta Labs 6829s - but this tube looks rare, to say the least), ECC82 and ECC81 plus the zillion equivs, plus ECC40 - not too common either.
I have a load of 81s and 82s to hand already which is cool.
Currently running with Mullard CV3884s and a quick spell with CV491s. More info laterz... knackered at the mo.
To anyone interested - I've decided to spend some considered time with this DAC before making any further comments about its sonic attributes. Just for reasons of getting to know it plus getting some extra hours on the V-Caps.
I've been told Lampizator put 200 hours on them, and Greg another 100, so I'd be surprised if there was room for any further improvements. That is a very nice touch though, so thanks to Lukasz and Greg for that.
I also have a signed by Lukasz test report and 5 year warranty including the tubes!!! Another very nice touch. Added to that, Greg from G-Point drove all the way from Hitchen to personally deliver it. I think Greg was a bit shocked at the contrast between my Apogees and his horns, but once he'd adjusted for a while he was making positive remarks - particularly about the ribbon bass.
The 6829s are in now, so off for another listen.
Hey Justin,
Paul from MLO here, look forward to your thoughts on this! Did you get you Ap's finished? When you do lets get organised, I'll pop over for a listen.
Btw, if you go to Whittlebury, pop in to Chapel and say hello, I'll have the CF DAC there we spoke about, along with Mr C from here we will have a rather nice system!
ATB for now..
Hi Paul,
Yeah sure I'll pop in and say hello. Be interesting to at least cast my ears over the CF DAC.
The Apogees are still in the making but progress is slow - breaking router bits have been a bit of a problem but I believe that is now sorted. I've got some more up-to-date photos than MLO thread but I just can't post them. Have confidence though they will get made eventually.:D
Justin
Keep it coming User211.
A couple of other nice touches - the L4 was optimised for the input impedance of my preamp and I was asked what output level I'd like. Plumped for 2.5V but TBH that obviously varies with the tube installed. CV491 (ECC82) requires noticeably more preamp gain than either ECC40 or 6829.
The L4 is excellent, Norm. It is hard to be read as objective without people thinking it is just self-affirming "I made the right decision" type of prose.
The price leap between the L3 and the L4 I have is substantial, but the increase in performance is "on another level". And indeed it is a level 4 - 1 level up!
Which kind of makes me extremely curious as to the quality of sonics available from a 5 or 6. I don't believe it'd be possible to have the same degree of lift in performance as witnessed between L3->L4 V-Cap'd.
I haven't heard a digital source that betters the L4's level of performance in my system. But that's just my opinion and biasing, I suppose.
I thought it'd be interesting to take the Lukasz description of the Gen 4 sound and comment on them. In relation to the previous generation I can't comment, which is what his comments refer to. So my observations are simply objective rather than relative. Or where I have felt like it they are relative to an L3.
1) The musical changes are among others: more palpable sound, more “here” in front of you. You can isolate separate threads easier and follow them easier and understand who is doing what.
3D projection is very good. But the bolded bit is absolutely spot on. Rather than stuff getting a bit hashed together, it is incredibly easy to follow various aspects of some particular part in both simple and complex passages. It's the ability to handle complex passages that really stands out - when there's a lot in the mix it really seems quite oddly good at doing this.
It is a bit like comparing a cheap cartridge to an expensive one whose tracking ability is vastly better. Only the level to which this is taken with the L4 is beyond any analogue or digital source I have ever heard in my system. It is literally brilliant at it.
3) There is a deeper and more tuneful bass.
Well it is deep. It is tuneful. And in the L4 it is better controlled than in L3. It is also fast without being "forced fast" if that makes any sense.
4) Human voices are more human.
A fellow Apogee owner from Lichtenstein came round and remarked how good voices were with the L3. They are more real sounding with the L4. But then so are instruments - which get close to convincingly being in front of you. But then you could say that about quite a few good DACs.
5) The 3D space is a more believable one.
No question the L4 can place various elements of the sound where you'd expect them to be. With electronic music that fails to take on much meaning, though, but it still conjures up a very nice soundstage.
The L4 is considerably better than the L3 was with electronic music. It is quicker, and the bass doesn't lose the required control/grip. But it'll never beat my old Tri-Vista in its ability to shove out bass that is both very controlled and subjectively fast.
6) Long time fatigue is significantly smaller
Agreed. But then again rougher, harsher sounds can sometimes help to maintain interest, even if it is ultimately fatiguing. You cannot have everything. It is all a compromise.
7) Any remaining “digital roughness” is completely gone.
Totally true. And maybe hard to get used to. A prime example of this is the Libertines first album which I used to find a bit difficult to get through with the Tri-Vista and other DACs. It sounded bloody fabulous on Friday night. Really clear, alive and energetic and not at all harsh/rough. This aspect seems to apply to pretty much everything - there is no "digital glare" to speak of. A bit uncanny and quite unusual.
I have to concede that from all the above you just don't know how it sounds, just like any other written review. All you can do is imagine... but the above should help point you in a direction or frame of mind as to the sorts of things that this DAC is good at.
Onto some 6414s...
... of course, finding that right tube can be torture....:D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfevfJQtg_g
Source A: GyroOrbe, Morch DP6, Transfiguration Orpheus. Trichord Diablo NCPSU. Track: Copy Of A from Hesitiation Marks on vinyl.
Source B: Lampizapper L4 with ECC40. Track: 24 bit/48KHz Copy Of A.
Listened to both and I must say the vinyl pressing is excellent. Really excellent and much better than The Fragile was on triple vinyl. This is on double vinyl and I bought it at the NAS show.
I used my sound meter (a good one) to ballpark level match.
Both renditions were markedly similar. Both were excellent. The Lamp rendition, I think, had marginally more detail/clarity coming through. But not by much. I think I'd be buggered to tell the two apart if I'd just walked into the track half way through and didn't know the source, excepting any obvious clicks and pops.
Considering the list price of the cartridge was approximately the same as the cost of the Lampizator, I'd say that was a result.
The tube rolling aspect of any piece of the equipment I always find fun. Next up to try is some Philips ECG 5814s, just because I was talking to Nick Gorham of Longdog Audio, who said he was reading this thread at the NAS show.
Now comparing the Longdog with the Lampizator would be interesting, as they are in the same price bracket. An AN DAC 4.1 should turn up in a couple of weeks for a comparison, its owner very curious to hear the Lampizator.
Now comparing the Longdog with the Lampizator would be interesting, as they are in the same price bracket.
I am sure we can do something to make that happen.
StanleyB
24-09-2013, 21:36
I would be interested how my TC-7533 compares at about 6% of the price.
I am sure we can do something to make that happen.
PM replied to.
I would be interested how my TC-7533 compares at about 6% of the price.
Well if you can get to Bristol... no problem.
StanleyB
25-09-2013, 06:05
I shall ask someone to take a TC-7533 along with them to Bristol.
I have been led to believe that the Lampizator uses a Wolfson DAC chip as well. If that is the case I would be interested to find out what additional info can be extracted from the digital data in an audio file. I am not interested in the sound signature of the valves and caps in the analogue signal path. I just want to know what else there is left to convert in an audio file that I haven't managed to get to.
The Lampi does NOT use a Wolfson Dac....that is for sure.
The Dac chip is possibly not the most important aspect anyway. the circuit design and the elaborate power supply would rank ahead of simply what chip is used. Dac chip itself means little, without reference to the receiver chip and the parameters chosen in the circuit. Additionally, the choice of synergistic parts is very imprtant, down to the brand of cheap resistors used. Lots of trial/errors/testing/retesting.
StanleyB
25-09-2013, 09:28
I was following the design of the Lampizator when the designer was using a Wolfson chip. I had no idea he had moved on since then.
I can't comment on how well the elaborate power supply in it compares to the elaborate power supply in my own product. I use some ultra low noise satellite and mobile phone components since they measure far better on my scope than the more traditional stuff used in digital HIFI equipment.
I can't comment on the analogue stage in the Lampzi either and how well the implementation of those expensive resistors and output valves compares against my own output stage. My design is based on abolishing the need for those parts anywhere in the circuit, which saves on complexity and cost.
It's the final sounding result in this difference in design approach that interest me most. That's why I am so keen to compare as many very expensive DACs as I can to the TC-7533. I am also trying to find out if the cost of diminishing returns are still valid or not.
Ali Tait
25-09-2013, 09:57
If Neal brings his BM to Owston, it can be compared to Nick's dac at least Stan.
If Neal brings his BM to Owston, it can be compared to Nick's dac at least Stan.
Is this the valve amp fest, near Doncaster? I can't seem to find any details? Would like to come if this if possible?
Ali Tait
25-09-2013, 10:39
All are welcome -
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5139&highlight=
It's the 9-10 November.
It's a pretty informal thing, bring what you like. We usually go round each system in turn on the Saturday, listening to two or three tracks on each, then it generally degenerates into a free for all and lots of chat and beer. If you want to stay for both days, we stay at the Owston Hall Hotel. Sunday is generally a lot quieter, fewer folk, and more experimenting/comparing phono stages/dacs etc.
The cost is shared amongst whomever turns up, it's usually £10 for Saturday, which includes a buffet lunch, and £5 on Sunday, which doesn't.
There is also the famous "Friday Night Seminar" which is nothing of the sort, more a get together in the pub to drink beer and talk crap till the early hours.
It's fun!
I was following the design of the Lampizator when the designer was using a Wolfson chip. I had no idea he had moved on since then.
I can't comment on how well the elaborate power supply in it compares to the elaborate power supply in my own product. I use some ultra low noise satellite and mobile phone components since they measure far better on my scope than the more traditional stuff used in digital HIFI equipment.
I can't comment on the analogue stage in the Lampzi either and how well the implementation of those expensive resistors and output valves compares against my own output stage. My design is based on abolishing the need for those parts anywhere in the circuit, which saves on complexity and cost.
It's the final sounding result in this difference in design approach that interest me most. That's why I am so keen to compare as many very expensive DACs as I can to the TC-7533. I am also trying to find out if the cost of diminishing returns are still valid or not.
I didnt say he uses expensive resistors, I said even the cheapest parts like resistors chosen can have a huge part to play in SQ. As you are well aware, we cant measure everything and maybe not even the most important things, so current measurements alone cant guarantee good sound. I also agree that sattelite tech, as used in the Calyx Femto Dac is useful for some parts in DAC design, so your DAC sounds promising.
I agree though that a listening comparison is best to indicate what is more pleasing to a person. Tell me, which Dac have you compared yours to so far?
Lukasz never used a Wolfson commercially. People just speculated about that.
I shall ask someone to take a TC-7533 along with them to Bristol.
I have been led to believe that the Lampizator uses a Wolfson DAC chip as well. If that is the case I would be interested to find out what additional info can be extracted from the digital data in an audio file. I am not interested in the sound signature of the valves and caps in the analogue signal path. I just want to know what else there is left to convert in an audio file that I haven't managed to get to.
This post makes no sense. Sending someone else won't answer your question as you would need to be here to hear any differences. Someone else can't really do that for you. The two bolded sentences conflict with each other.
A few other points:
The default level 4 valve is an ECC40 which is cheap. It also uses Russian mil spec caps by default which are not expensive. I just decided to buy expensive ones.
The level 3 DAC uses cheap Russian components. According to Lukasz, making a good sounding DAC is hard with cheap components, but a lot easier with expensive ones. I believe I have paid for his experience - read his websites and think about the amount of time he has spent messing with DACs and assessing the results aurally.
I'm only interested in a Beresford comparison if you arrive with one personally, Stan. In which case I'll happily feed you well and treat you with respect!:)
StanleyB
26-09-2013, 19:29
This post makes no sense. Sending someone else won't answer your question as you would need to be here to hear any differences. Someone else can't really do that for you. The two bolded sentences conflict with each other.
I listen to what my customers say, and compare that to what I have found or managed to do. If they match up then I know if we are all on the same wavelength ;).
One thing that I picked up when I worked for a couple of companies in the electrical and electronic field is how quickly sales people tell you what you should be hearing, instead of listening to what the customers say they are hearing. (Anyone remembers those excited salesmen doing a LP12 demonstration?).
To give you an idea of what I might be referring to: those audible key differences between the Bushmaster MKI and MKII were the improvements I set out to achieve. But I did not tell anyone what they should be hearing. I waited to see if they had been able to notice those key differences. Once confirmations started to come in I knew whose hearing I could trust with blind faith.
And that's what makes it possible for me to trust what numerous owners of my products say.
I bet it is a great DAC, Stan. I think the little Jolida Glass FX II is a great DAC. Neither are expensive. I take the point of your last post, but there's no substitute for you witnessing it with your own ears. You may even walk away convinced of Beresford superiority! And who would I be to tell you you were wrong?
All academic, however.
StanleyB
27-09-2013, 07:05
I bet it is a great DAC, Stan. I think the little Jolida Glass FX II is a great DAC. Neither are expensive. I take the point of your last post, but there's no substitute for you witnessing it with your own ears. You may even walk away convinced of Beresford superiority! And who would I be to tell you you were wrong?
I have faith in my customers when they tell me what they like, don't like, and would like. Similarly I have faith in my customers when they describe to me what they hear. I wish that more designers would trust their customers to that extent, rather than relying on just their own ears. Your own ears can deceive you without you realizing that.
It's not a case of superiority. It's about knowing where items converge and diverge. And once I have that info I can analyse it and compare the input from different people against each other to find any common denominators.
I would struggle to come up with the blue print for a £1K DAC, let alone a £3K one. And the simple reason for that is because I would spend a lot more time trying to get the same result for a fraction of the cost. An example of that is when I kept tweaking the £100 TC-7510 till it was a close match to the £3K Chord64 and £5K Naim CDP sound wise.
This post makes no sense. Sending someone else won't answer your question as you would need to be here to hear any differences. Someone else can't really do that for you. The two bolded sentences conflict with each other.
A few other points:
The default level 4 valve is an ECC40 which is cheap. It also uses Russian mil spec caps by default which are not expensive. I just decided to buy expensive ones.
The level 3 DAC uses cheap Russian components. According to Lukasz, making a good sounding DAC is hard with cheap components, but a lot easier with expensive ones. I believe I have paid for his experience - read his websites and think about the amount of time he has spent messing with DACs and assessing the results aurally.
......
Valve prices are usually dictated by fashion or rarity, prices can have no bearing on sound quality. Same can go for caps as well, circuit implementation is the hard part, if its poor then no amount of designer components will make it better.
StanleyB
27-09-2013, 07:24
According to Lukasz, making a good sounding DAC is hard with cheap components, but a lot easier with expensive ones.
It is hard for him.
And there is where someone like me excels. I don't use a blinkered approach when coming up with cost effective solutions.
It is hard for him.
And there is where someone like me excels. I don't use a blinkered approach when coming up with cost effective solutions.
Well your ego is intact, Stan.
My money is on your DAC being pulverised by an L4G4, however.:lol:
It is hard for him.
And there is where someone like me excels. I don't use a blinkered approach when coming up with cost effective solutions.
Stan, do you honestly believe that Lukasz is a blinkered designer???? Do you really think so low of his product when so many hold it in high regard? Do yourselff a favour and listen to one and then reassess.
This is starting to sound like an avi thread. Is Stan related to Ashley? Justin how those the Jolida you have compare to the Level4? As badly designed as the lampizators are and blinkered as Lukasz is I would be aspiring to try the Level6 at some stage in life! Have to wait for that retirement windfall
Lukasz is actually very well qualified (http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/About_Me.html).
He may not read that way due to language issues, and a slightly (very) cranky attitude & huge ego, but he's spent years messing around with DIY DACs/tubes etc, and offers a DIY gear and kits here: http://www.lampizator.eu/
If you explore the last link, you'll see the amount of practical experience he has. In this game, where it is evident that no one really understands the link between hardware and the resulting sonic output, that, to my mind, is absolutely essential.
The L4 is capable of exceeding the performance of an expensive turntable and is quite a bit ahead of the little Jolida. It is extremely consistent in managing to make recordings sound good - across genres. With a DAC like this, you realise that most recordings really are better than you thought they were, and it was basically down to limitations in previous gear that made you think otherwise.
Stan, why don't you Lampize a Beresford, quietly, in private? You may not like the results, from what you've said bias and pride will surely prevent that. What you get won't equal even a level 3 Lamizator I suspect, but you could have some fun trying. Or buy the Lukasz DIY kit which is definitely below an L3. All within the bounds of increasing experience and learning.
Or if you don't like tubes, you could try a Fetishizator (http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/FETISHIZATOR/fetishizator.html) LOL!
Or just send me a Beresford demo unit and I'll try and be as objective as possible assessing it.
StanleyB
29-09-2013, 09:28
In this game, where it is evident that no one really understands the link between hardware and the resulting sonic output, that, to my mind, is absolutely essential. I would suggest that you refrain from trying to insult the intelligence of others by typing "it is evident". I for one have demonstrated time and time again that your assumption is pure fallacy.
The L4 is capable of exceeding the performance of an expensive turntable and is quite a bit ahead of the little Jolida. It is extremely consistent in managing to make recordings sound good - across genres. With a DAC like this, you realise that most recordings really are better than you thought they were, and it was basically down to limitations in previous gear that made you think otherwise.
Many DAC owners prefer accuracy between what has been recorded and what is reproduced through their speakers afterwards. If what you are suggesting is that the Lampzi turns even bad recordings into good sounding ones then it is hitting a different note.
Stan, why don't you Lampize a Beresford, quietly, in private? You may not like the results, from what you've said bias and pride will surely prevent that.
Why would I wish to install an inferior and more expensive option to try it out?? If Lukasz could make a better DAC than mine at an equal or better price then such a suggestion would have some merit.
Or just send me a Beresford demo unit and I'll try and be as objective as possible assessing it.
I'll trust the objective abilities of my customers, of which there are many on this forum and tens of thousands around the world, over that of yours any day. They vote with their wallet. And my long standing guarantee to a refund if a DAC purchased from me to replace an existing one is not an improvement, is in itself a satisfying testament to my technical skills.
OK Stan you are right and I am wrong. It is evident you have created the ultimate DAC at a bargain price.
Was hoping you would lie about the Jolida! Have two John Kenny devices Ciúnas and JKDAC32 and even compared to a Meitner dac they sound good but the Meitner is superior. But price is so far ahead of it Ed Meitner one would be hopeful has managed to get something right. Ditto Lukasz as for grumpiness does that not go with the territory?
Yup I get fed up with all the arguments that happen inside this audiophile turf. It is pathetic, but it is the way of things. You have to bear in mind some people live off it - and where money is concerned things start to become too important for healthy discourse. Not in all cases, but in some.
See the L3 thread about the Jolida, which I really liked for the money. A Meitner CDP gets a mention too. Excellent machine, but mad expensive.
http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/09/29/dsd-lampizator/
Yup I get fed up with all the arguments that happen inside this audiophile turf. It is pathetic, but it is the way of things. You have to bear in mind some people live off it - and where money is concerned things start to become too important for healthy discourse. Not in all cases, but in some.
See the L3 thread about the Jolida, which I really liked for the money. A Meitner CDP gets a mention too. Excellent machine, but mad expensive.
Yeah you are on the money re arguments and opinions on the hifi turf alright. I think there are a lot of frustrated keyboardists on forums. The hobby is meant to be enjoyed but some of these boys could suck the life out of a country. Best avoided or simply ignored as replying feeds the beast and makes it happy.
I have 2 John Kenny devices so wouldn't mind trying something like a Jolida just to hear a different flavour. Have a funny feeling JK's device are probably impossible to beat at their price level he just seems to have the touch. I envy you the lampizator hope to get to hear a Level 5 soon if I can arrange to get to the owners.
The Jolida is now on version 3 with a headphone jack and volume control. I'd try and pick up a 2 2nd hand if I were you and you don't need the new features - should be nice & cheap, and extremely hard to dislike for the money.
I've not heard the JK.
Been rolling a few ECC81 alternatives - specifically the oversized Raytheon 6414 and GE 6829. These both better Mullard CV491 and CV4024 - my previous fave ECC81/2s.
I don't think they are a tiny bit better - in the Lampizator circuit they offer quite a notable lift in performance. Better, more fleshed out walk-in soundstage available from these with fabulous detail. The 6829 is my favourite, sounding rich, full and a bit lush. 6414 is cleaner, less rich, but impressively bold and clear.
Strongly recommend others experiment with ECC81/2/3 (see 12ax7, 12au7, 12at7 tabs at top of page) alternatives listed here: http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm. As always, though YMMV.
So far I am not so keen on the Mullard ECC40/CV3884 - a heater went on one but Greg at GPoint is sending me another. Not his fault, obviously. May try a different ECC40 - it probably isn't the tube type that is at fault here.
Not a good post for Mullards, I realise. No offense intended. Just telling it like I'm hearing it at the moment:)
User211,
If you stick with ECC40 (great SQ but not so robust), then the ONLY real alternative is the Tungsram ECC40. All the other brands are from the same Phillps factory. The Tungsram is shorter and has no skirt/flare at the bottom. It is reputed to have a better midrange definition too.
I have not tried the Tungsram yet, but did get a couple recently... about €20 each including delivery on Ebay.
If you leave the ECC40 trype, then you need a new base for the ECC182 which has a lower gain, but sounds great and is very robust. But, its pricier too.
There is a whole Lampi tube rolling therad over at audiocircle.com
Norm - yeah I think you're right about the Tungsram/Philips thing. I'll pick up a pair of Tungsrams at some point.
I haven't got around to the 6X5 yet. Not so easy as it involves taking the DAC cover off.
Just read your Audiocircle thread:)
Check out this massive thread;
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1376527744&&&/New-Lampizator-Level-4-Version-4-DAC-in-
Hm a mahoosive Lampi love fest thread:eyebrows:
Recently the 6414s have been getting more time than the 6829s. Which is kind of a relief because I don't think I have ever had a GE tube I haven't be able to better with something else. I think the "lushness" of the 6829, which is initially really appealing with the right material, is actually some sort of mild distortion component of some kind that the Raytheon 6414 doesn't appear to have or want to know about. At least, that's how I perceive it. Whether it is actually true or not is another question;)
Just thought I'd add the Amanera USB module in this DAC is excellent, making the SPDIF interface on my old MF Tri-Vista appear as pathetic as it was when used with an MF VLink USB to SPDIF converter.
I believe Longdog use an Amanera module. Not sure whether it is 100% the same module as the one in the Lamp, which is defo the top module.
With JRiver and sensible options set within it, I've had zero synch issues. Excellent stuff.
which is defo the top module
It would be :-)
They are all the same, there are DIY threads on tweaking them, dont get confused though with the different colour PCB's, electrically they are the same. Though of course the firmware can change. The first time I tried them they didn't play nicely with the SB Touch at 24/192, but later firmware fixes that.
Out of interest, are they run isolated on the Lamipazator?
I do not know for sure, but I do know the USB module in the weird tube output Lampizoiter transport is, so I expect so.
Another massive Lovepizator thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116086.0
The more I read about the Lampizator from Level 4 Gen 4 upwards the more I buy lotto tickets. Plenty of enjoyable reading in that thread.
One thing - this is a NOS DAC. I was playing with JRiver s/w based oversampling - outputing a 24bit 48KHz as 192 KHz.
I was absolutely, totally and completely unable to detect any sonic difference whatsoever between the two modes. So either, I'm deaf, JRiver doesn't do what it is supposed to do (bug or misuse by me), or the whole NOS/oversampling thing is a complete lemon.
Make of that what you will.:eyebrows:
forget about Jriver. Have a bash at MQn and see does that do anything for your lampy. Upsampling imho is a nono. Very doubtful Jriver was doing very much if anything. To me Jriver is if you want the glossy front end with nice album art etc. That is the advantage of it.
I think JRiver is rather better than that. I'm really quite impressed with it and I have actually paid money for it, so I'm inclined to carry on with it.
I think it is perfectly possible JRiver is doing what it says on the tin. I'd be surprised if not TBH as it is something that DACs may actually display.
I'll check MQn out though. Thanks.
loonytunes
24-11-2013, 17:42
I was following the design of the Lampizator when the designer was using a Wolfson chip. I had no idea he had moved on since then.
I can't comment on how well the elaborate power supply in it compares to the elaborate power supply in my own product. I use some ultra low noise satellite and mobile phone components since they measure far better on my scope than the more traditional stuff used in digital HIFI equipment.
I can't comment on the analogue stage in the Lampzi either and how well the implementation of those expensive resistors and output valves compares against my own output stage. My design is based on abolishing the need for those parts anywhere in the circuit, which saves on complexity and cost.
It's the final sounding result in this difference in design approach that interest me most. That's why I am so keen to compare as many very expensive DACs as I can to the TC-7533. I am also trying to find out if the cost of diminishing returns are still valid or not.
Stan, any chance you could go further with regards reducing the complexity of your DAC by using a DAC chip which in itself is 'simple' in terms of - no internal sigma delta processing (some say generates RFI computational noise) - and instead using an R2R ladder DAC perhaps as simple as the TDA 1543?
I think JRiver is rather better than that. I'm really quite impressed with it and I have actually paid money for it, so I'm inclined to carry on with it.
I think it is perfectly possible JRiver is doing what it says on the tin. I'd be surprised if not TBH as it is something that DACs may actually display.
I'll check MQn out though. Thanks.
Don't mean to be dissing Jriver.The spat with Jplay put me off it not that I had intended going down that route but the negative behaviour was in my opinion very poor. I used Jplay and still do and paid for it also but MQn from version 2.44 in my system has a significant edge. But it is a basic player so if Jriver rocks your boat this is mega basic by comparison.
One thing - this is a NOS DAC. I was playing with JRiver s/w based oversampling - outputing a 24bit 48KHz as 192 KHz.
I was absolutely, totally and completely unable to detect any sonic difference whatsoever between the two modes. So either, I'm deaf, JRiver doesn't do what it is supposed to do (bug or misuse by me), or the whole NOS/oversampling thing is a complete lemon.
Make of that what you will.:eyebrows:
I just believe that this whole higher bit depth, sample rate thing is not worth worrying about at all.
It's kind of like Nyquist was basically right.
Shock, horror.
One thing - this is a NOS DAC. I was playing with JRiver s/w based oversampling - outputing a 24bit 48KHz as 192 KHz.
I was absolutely, totally and completely unable to detect any sonic difference whatsoever between the two modes. So either, I'm deaf, JRiver doesn't do what it is supposed to do (bug or misuse by me), or the whole NOS/oversampling thing is a complete lemon.
Make of that what you will.:eyebrows:
Not entirely sure why you would expect there to be any. I dont know how the output stage of your dac is designed, it may be that there is a filter at 22k, or there may be no filter at all, but either way JRiver can't create new information
Not entirely sure why you would expect there to be any. I dont know how the output stage of your dac is designed, it may be that there is a filter at 22k, or there may be no filter at all, but either way JRiver can't create new information
See post immediately previous to your last one.
I kind of wonder what the option is for, unless your running super-tweeters with a non-filtered DAC, in which case with a 48K source there won't be any appreciable aliasing up to 96KHz. Or you're using low sample rate sources.
StanleyB
26-11-2013, 11:11
I kind of wonder what the option is for, unless your running super-tweeters with a non-filtered DAC, in which case with a 48K source there won't be any appreciable aliasing up to 96KHz. Or you're using low sample rate sources.
Could you add that this is your personal opinion?
Could you add that this is your personal opinion?
No Stan. It is a question... I'm probably mis-understanding. Prepared to be enlightened, though, if you have an opinion/the answer.
StanleyB
26-11-2013, 14:12
No Stan. It is a question... I'm probably mis-understanding. Prepared to be enlightened, though, if you have an opinion/the answer.
I am looking right now for my magnifier so that I can see that question mark.
I am looking right now for my magnifier so that I can see that question mark.
It's the "I kind of wonder..." bit. Subtle, but designed to provoke a response. No magnifier will reveal the concealed semantics, I'm afraid.:rolleyes:
See post immediately previous to your last one.
I kind of wonder what the option is for, unless your running super-tweeters with a non-filtered DAC, in which case with a 48K source there won't be any appreciable aliasing up to 96KHz. Or you're using low sample rate sources.
Well, aliasing can create signals down to 0Hz, its not just related to the Fs/2 -> Fs range of frequencies.
Free dither in a sense.
For an example of dither being used to piss-take levels in a commercial recording, check out Slave Called Slither by Porcupine Tree on the album Stupid Dreams.
Philips 5814A relatively shut-in compared to 6414 & 6829. Worst so far TBH. Never did like them, even in my Beard amp. Got some pinched waist 7209/E180CC tubes from the 1950s on the way. Reckon they'll be nice.
Might pop the lid soonish, take & post a few pics, and do some rectifier rolling.
Then I'll sell some valves in the classifieds:D
Do you know what DAC chip the Level 4 uses?
Do you know what DAC chip the Level 4 uses?
Nope. I haven't be able to determine it via the web. Furthermore, I'd be really surprised if lifting the lid reveals the answer.
I'd be interested to hear the "no chip" DSD module fed FLAC files via the real-time DSD conversion available in JRiver, though.
One thing I can say it isn't - an ESS Sabre chip. He didn't like it so I was told by Greg at GPoint.
I'd be interested to hear the "no chip" DSD module fed FLAC files via the real-time DSD conversion available in JRiver, though.
Will be interesting that. in theory a resistor and cap is all thats needed to decode DSD (once you have split it into two bit streams). But in effect you have done all the stuff a Delta Sigma DAC will do, just in the PC with J-River, so not sure where the gain would be. It is a lossy conversion as well, you cant get back to the FLAC from the DSD.
Interesting to hear, yes. But superior to PCM? I doubt it based on Wiki DSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital#DSD_disc_format). It may well be that you can't hear a difference. But til you try...:)
Any idea how lossy the conversion is, percentage wise, and why it can't be done losslessly?
dminches
16-12-2013, 21:38
How are you guys testing the ECC40s that you are using in the Lampi? Most testers don't seem to support them.
ECC40 are relatively cheap and sound good. Mullards are like $15 each delivered and Tungsram are like $20-25 each.
How are you guys testing the ECC40s that you are using in the Lampi? Most testers don't seem to support them.
I'm not using them LOL. But as Norm says you can pick up unused Mullards for peanuts. Chances are they'll sound fine even if they haven't been matched.
The pinched waist E180CC that came through yesterday on initial encounter seem likely to displace the 6414s that were my current faves. Initially really impressed, but they need to stand the test of time/be exposed to more material.
I'm not using them LOL. But as Norm says you can pick up unused Mullards for peanuts. Chances are they'll sound fine even if they haven't been matched.
The pinched waist E180CC that came through yesterday on initial encounter seem likely to displace the 6414s that were my current faves. Initially really impressed, but they need to stand the test of time/be exposed to more material.
Yes, the Mullards and Tungsram I got are definitely New/Old stock. No need for testing... I even have Phillips and Sontone...all NOS.
The excellent pinch wasters...:D
http://www.imgbox.de/users/Rappi62/092013vv_e80cctall/Valvo_tall_E80CCgl_totale.jpg
http://www.imgbox.de/users/Rappi62/092013vv_e80cctall/Valvo_tall_E80CCgl_back.jpg
dminches
21-12-2013, 01:28
I test every tube before I use it. I am always concerned about shorts and leaks.
For those concerned with that kind of issue, order a DAC with the valve type you want I guess. I'd be amazed if they won't do that, given the config I have.
Also: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1PC-ECC40-TO-12AX7-8Pin-to-9Pin-Vacuum-Tube-Convert-Socket-Adapter-/321135547501?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4ac52b946d
If anyone is worried, I can test ECC40's
I test every tube before I use it. I am always concerned about shorts and leaks.
All the ECC40s I have ever seen have been brand spanking NEW old stock. I would not sweat it.
Talking of which, I've just ordered some Tungsrams.:)
dminches
21-12-2013, 16:34
All the ECC40s I have ever seen have been brand spanking NEW old stock. I would not sweat it.
I decided to throw caution to the wind and just threw the Tungsrams in. All is well!
How are you finding your Lampi David? Also, what are you using it with (amps and speakers)? And what level/options did you go for?
dminches
21-12-2013, 22:35
The unit is still burning in but I really like it. From top to bottom the music is enjoyable and never fatiguing. I listen to a lot of vinyl so it has still competition.
I have a level 4.5/ gen 4 with the ECC40s and 6x5 rectifier.
It is being feed music from my PC server running Windows Serve 2012, which I built. I have a Cary SLP-05 tubed pre-amp, 2 Cary SA-500.1 mono blocks and 2 Vandersteen 5A speakers.
Very nice indeed, I expect. Always liked the Vandie 2ce, but not heard the 5A, which I assume are better.
Those Carys - a Kilowatt into 4 Ohms. Gulp. Serious driving force.;)
dminches
22-12-2013, 02:04
The Vandys need a lot of power. 500 wpc into 8 ohms is the right amount.
Here are a couple pictures of my room.
http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa342/dminches/Music%20Room%20Updated/FrontWall_zps9543c5c4.jpg
http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa342/dminches/Music%20Room%20Updated/FrontWallwideangle_zpsd0e318fb.jpg
Sovereign
22-12-2013, 09:33
I have been following this thread with interest and I guess I am after some advice.
I think my hifi sounds quite incredible, it consists of MacBook Pro- MDAC-TSS Amp and Lampizator P-17 Open baffle speakers. The picture below gives you a general idea but I'm not using valves at the moment.
My only slight frustration with the sound is the fact that there is what is possibly a digital glare. I'm not sure if it is this or not; when an album is recorded well I can listen for a long time, when recordings are not so good I can get easily frustrated with a high pitch that is normally most obvious on voices. i.e.. when you hear a voice or a trumpet in real life it does not hear the sound I hear through my hifi. I have some great albums that I would love to listen to but I can't as I can't handle the false top end. The thing I want the most from Hi Fi is for everything to sound real.
The NVA TSS amp and Lampizator P-17 speakers are very revealing but I don't believe the problem lies there, I have been looking at my DAC and wondering if this is where the problem lies, my MDAC isn'y standard as it has the Sovereign upgrade.
I have heard great reports about Nick Gorhams DAC but this is way out of my price range, I have also been looking at the Jolida DAC and was wondering if that is the way to go?
Any advice would be gratefully received.
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n533/SovereignKing/P1010669.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/SovereignKing/media/P1010669.jpg.html)
I have wondered about the jolida dac also but have concerns it would lack detail. Price wise if it delivers half what people are suggesting it seems a great buy.
One way of improving what you have is to go down the dedicated PC route with linear and battery supply. Cheaper to just get a jolida and less hassle.
I think the laptop is limiting in what it will bring (i.e getting rid of the digital glare) There is a slippery slope you can take if interested in trying software MQn Jplay etc and
lan cables/ operating systems on usb key. They can all bring something to the table and might give you the improvements you are after.
The Vandys need a lot of power. 500 wpc into 8 ohms is the right amount.
Here are a couple pictures of my room.
Serious set up. Should imagine you get some great results in there.
I have been following this thread with interest and I guess I am after some advice.
I think my hifi sounds quite incredible, it consists of MacBook Pro- MDAC-TSS Amp and Lampizator P-17 Open baffle speakers. The picture below gives you a general idea but I'm not using valves at the moment.
My only slight frustration with the sound is the fact that there is what is possibly a digital glare. I'm not sure if it is this or not; when an album is recorded well I can listen for a long time, when recordings are not so good I can get easily frustrated with a high pitch that is normally most obvious on voices. i.e.. when you hear a voice or a trumpet in real life it does not hear the sound I hear through my hifi. I have some great albums that I would love to listen to but I can't as I can't handle the false top end. The thing I want the most from Hi Fi is for everything to sound real.
The NVA TSS amp and Lampizator P-17 speakers are very revealing but I don't believe the problem lies there, I have been looking at my DAC and wondering if this is where the problem lies, my MDAC isn'y standard as it has the Sovereign upgrade.
I have heard great reports about Nick Gorhams DAC but this is way out of my price range, I have also been looking at the Jolida DAC and was wondering if that is the way to go?
Any advice would be gratefully received.
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n533/SovereignKing/P1010669.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/SovereignKing/media/P1010669.jpg.html)
I've heard that exact pair of Lampizator speakers at Scalford 2011. AmDismal's I believe - or at least they were.
The Jolida is a great DAC and seems to be making an impact on the Wam. It's a safe bet and I really liked it. Plus you can fine tune it with a bit of tube rolling. I reckon a 2nd hand FXII would be a massive bargain. You don't need to buy a Lampizator L4 or Nick's DAC to get good to very good digital,. I cannot say if it would solve your issues, however.
The excellent pinch wasters...:D
http://www.imgbox.de/users/Rappi62/092013vv_e80cctall/Valvo_tall_E80CCgl_totale.jpg
http://www.imgbox.de/users/Rappi62/092013vv_e80cctall/Valvo_tall_E80CCgl_back.jpg
Actually, they aren't excellent. With the system left on, I got out the geetar and let rip with a few loud chords then stopped suddenly.
WTF was coming out of the hi-fi? Tap tap on the Lampizator. Turns out they are or have become microphonic.
Back to the 6414s:)
Lee Henley
29-12-2013, 11:11
I've heard that exact pair of Lampizator speakers at Scalford 2011. AmDismal's I believe - or at least they were.
The Jolida is a great DAC and seems to be making an impact on the Wam. It's a safe bet and I really liked it. Plus you can fine tune it with a bit of tube rolling. I reckon a 2nd hand FXII would be a massive bargain. You don't need to buy a Lampizator L4 or Nick's DAC to get good to very good digital,. I cannot say if it would solve your issues, however.
Been using the Jolida Dac for close on a year now, very good for the money. Recently it was pitched against a Lampizator and AN Dac 2.1 at a bakeoff and it was no surprise it didn't embarrass itself, sure the other 2 were better but it wasn't a night and day difference
More so throw in a pair of Siemens tubes and that takes it up a notch again!
Been using the Jolida Dac for close on a year now, very good for the money. Recently it was pitched against a Lampizator and AN Dac 2.1 at a bakeoff and it was no surprise it didn't embarrass itself, sure the other 2 were better but it wasn't a night and day difference
More so throw in a pair of Siemens tubes and that takes it up a notch again!
It has a lot less character than a Lampi L3, when I had the two together. Then again the L4 has a lot less character than an L3, and I'd say the Jolida sounds closer to an L4 than an L3 does.
With the right material an L3 can sound sumptuously lurverly, though.
Super-foo loading a Jolida with some top tubes and silly expensive caps/other bits woud be interesting.
Sovereign
29-12-2013, 21:05
Very helpful and insightful, thanks
It has a lot less character than a Lampi L3, when I had the two together. Then again the L4 has a lot less character than an L3, and I'd say the Jolida sounds closer to an L4 than an L3 does.
With the right material an L3 can sound sumptuously lurverly, though.
Super-foo loading a Jolida with some top tubes and silly expensive caps/other bits woud be interesting.
Interesting thread, chaps. At some point I'd like to hear the top 'Lampi' (whatever that is) against my Audiocom-modified Sony DAS-R1. As a matter of interest, how much is the DAC at the top of the Lampizator tree?
Also, Nick, I'd love to hear your DAC, in comparison with the Sony. Do you think you could make that happen? :)
Marco.
As an aside, this outlines why I hold Stan, as an electronics designer, in the greatest respect:
One thing that I picked up when I worked for a couple of companies in the electrical and electronic field is how quickly sales people tell you what you should be hearing, instead of listening to what the customers say they are hearing.
To give you an idea of what I might be referring to: those audible key differences between the Bushmaster MKI and MKII were the improvements I set out to achieve. But I did not tell anyone what they should be hearing. I waited to see if they had been able to notice those key differences. Once confirmations started to come in I knew whose hearing I could trust with blind faith.
And that's what makes it possible for me to trust what numerous owners of my products say.
In reference to the bit in bold (replace "sales people" with 'product manufacturers'), it's a pity that a certain designer of MC head amps (amongst other things) didn't adopt the same open-minded/inquisitive/willing to learn attitude when asked to produce his head amp with an over-specified linear PSU! ;)
Marco.
Also, Nick, I'd love to hear your DAC, in comparison with the Sony. Do you think you could make that happen?
Cant see why not. David has a few of them on hand (I just use a rather untidy prototype), maybe I should have a trip to see you some time.
That defo sounds like a plan - it's something that despite knowing each other for years, me visiting your place on numerous occasions, meeting each other at Owston and at Ian Walker's, we've never done!
Besides, you need to hear me Tannoys... ;)
Marco.
Interesting thread, chaps. At some point I'd like to hear the top 'Lampi' (whatever that is) against my Audiocom-modified Sony DAS-R1. As a matter of interest, how much is the DAC at the top of the Lampizator tree?
Marco.
http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/PRICE_LIST.html
No one has a level 7 in the UK yet I'm betting though I expect orders have been placed. It runs with 2A3s, 300Bs or 45s - your choice. There's someone in Bristol with a 6. If you're really interested try Greg at GPoint.
I would also like to hear the top Lampi, Nick's LdA DAC, Marco's Sony and perhaps an Audio Note 4.1 Sig thrown in against my Audial Model S. :)
http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/PRICE_LIST.html
No one has a level 7 in the UK yet I'm betting though I expect orders have been placed. It runs with 2A3s, 300Bs or 45s - your choice. There's someone in Bristol with a 6. If you're really interested try Greg at GPoint.
Thanks for that, Justin. Greg has invited me down for a sesh at some point, which I intend to take him up on, so I will make sure of checking out the Lampizator range there (and take my Sony down to use for comparison purposes) :)
Marco.
I would also like to hear the top Lampi, Nick's LdA DAC, Marco's Sony and perhaps an Audio Note 4.1 Sig thrown in against my Audial Model S. :)
Well, why don't we move things forward from idle chit-chat on a forum (lol), to arranging a proper bake-off? :cool:
Marco.
Well, why don't we move things forward from idle chit-chat on a forum (lol), to arranging a proper bake-off? :cool:
Marco.
I would be up for that. :)
I would also like to hear the top Lampi, Nick's LdA DAC, Marco's Sony and perhaps an Audio Note 4.1 Sig thrown in against my Audial Model S. :)
Hm - a level 6 is designed to beat an AN DAC 5 according to Lukasz. A 4 is fair against Nick's DAC pricewise.
Love to hear what you guys think about a 4.1 against a Lampi 4. I've heard both so I think I know...:)
EDIT: I'd go but the trouble is distance versus can I be arsed factor. Warrington, for instance, is a no no.
http://audioshark.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4344&d=1389228527
New Level 7 Dac in Vegas (silver plate on top with exposed tubes)....with Intuitive Design/Mosaic Audio Denali speakers and Lampi GM70 integrated monobloc amps.
At some point you guys will have to bring all that stuff across the irish sea on tour??
Can't help that Lukasz is getting a bit carried away with himself... All these extra levels and constant revisions isn't the best for customer confidence, maybe he should've done some more R&D beforehand, and then launching a more stable series of levels...
Maybe. Some of the gen 3s are actually gen 4s according to the website. That must be a bit annoying for owners, though I believe the status can be confirmed.
They are highly configurable DACs, though, and I actually think that is part of the attraction. I know of no other DAC building company that is as flexible. You really are getting a customized DAC built to your specs.
Due to the flexibility, I believe one level 4 gen 4, say, can sound quite a bit different to another.
I had a go with the Tungsram ECC40. Put is this way - the Raytheon 6414 has absolutely nothing to worry about.
EDIT: lateral thought for tube rollers in general - for instance, try mixing tube types e.g. 6414 on one channel and 6829 in the other. I thought I'd hear some weird imbalance but it turned out MUCH better than I thought...
User211, are the ECC40 and the Raytheon 6414 interchangeable?
The Level7 came as a specific request from the Far East crowd.
I just wanted to let you know that I've replaced my stock Mullard CV 3884 with nos Philips ecc40 (white labels) and even if some say that they are made at the same factory, to my ears the Philips ecc40 sounds better (better clarity, the instruments have more body and harmonics, to name a few).
I've also replaced the stock RCA 6x5 with a Tung-Sol and I can confirm the findings of others... the Tung-Sol is the better tube.
User211, are the ECC40 and the Raytheon 6414 interchangeable?
The Level7 came as a specific request from the Far East crowd.
No my DAC has two sets of sockets - see the early posts in this thread, Norman.
I might leave the Tungsrams on for a few days sometime. They are unused I think and they sound duff compared to the Raytheon's. The gap seems too big to be right.
I think I'd go for the 45 in a level 7 as there is plenty of NOS stock left.
I've also replaced the stock RCA 6x5 with a Tung-Sol and I can confirm the findings of others... the Tung-Sol is the better tube.
Did you find getting the lid off a challenge? Did you have to prize it of with a screwdriver or something?
hifinutt
13-01-2014, 19:22
had the great privelige of hearing a lampi in my system yesterday with the msb s200 power amp which is very very special and the lampi did not disappoint with the logans
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/phil125/P1030975_zps731f484d.jpg (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/phil125/media/P1030975_zps731f484d.jpg.html)
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/phil125/P1030976_zps49d03498.jpg (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/phil125/media/P1030976_zps49d03498.jpg.html)
Did you find getting the lid off a challenge? Did you have to prize it of with a screwdriver or something?
You don't have to completely remove the lid; you have to unscrew all the screws at the back and underneath the DAC and the two screws found at the top of the front face. Then you can push the cover towards the back until you gain access to the 6x5.
You don't have to completely remove the lid; you have to unscrew all the screws at the back and underneath the DAC and the two screws found at the top of the front face. Then you can push the cover towards the back until you gain access to the 6x5.
Yup tried exactly that a while ago - couldn't slide the lid back enough to get to the rectifier. Bit of a problem, really. I'll have to prise the lid off I think.
had the great privelige of hearing a lampi in my system yesterday with the msb s200 power amp which is very very special and the lampi did not disappoint with the logans
The latest fresh looking silver facsias and white lit buttons are definitely the way to go, looking at that little setup.
Glad you enjoyed it, even if you don't go for one. They can't suit everyone's taste.
Yup tried exactly that a while ago - couldn't slide the lid back enough to get to the rectifier. Bit of a problem, really. I'll have to prise the lid off I think.
Yes, you have to prise off from one side first, as it has a bit of give. Its like a clamshell.
The Raytheon you mentioned was a recti or output tube?
Think of it as a seriously good ECC81. It is in the output stage for this DAC.
Be careful. The Penta Labs ones I have are actually a 6414 and a 6829. I think a genuine 6414 has black plates. A 6829 has grey plates. The Penta Labs say 6829 on them but one also says 6414 in small writing. That is because that is what it actually is. It has black plates and looks exactly like the Raytheon branded ones I have. The other Penta looks exactly like the grey plate 6829 GE tubes I have.
Hence the comment about mixing tubes. Somehow the Pentas do sound great, even though they are a mix. Almost as if the best aspects of each tube shine through.
If you only have an ECC40 socket don't worry Norman. The Mullard ECC40s sounded OK and the Tungrams probably will too after a few burn in hours. I just personally prefer the 6414 by quite a bit. You might not!;)
From Watford valves:
"This 6414W was made and tested by Raytheon U.S.A for National Electronics as part of their premium selected Gold line range.
This is high grade valve was selected for computer circuits and was used extensively by IBM and the American Military. The 6414W was only made in the U.S.A and has a 10,000 hour heater rating. The 6414W Raytheon was selected as the factory of choice by National Electronics USA as It is a more ruggedly built, offers long life rating and is made to full military specifications. National Electronics then after a burn in process then selected the valves and then marketed them as their premium Gold line.
This valve is used by Manly Labs in a number of its studio products such as Voxbox, Massive Passive, ELOP, Mono and Dual Mono mic pre, SLAM, and Pultec EQ. Manley also use the 6414 in audio products such as Stingray amps and MAHI monoblocks.
This special quality industrial valve offers the best quality audio sound and used is by many of our professional studio customers using Manly equipment. This item is very now hard to find and this is possible the last time we will find this item in any quantity in pristine condition.
The valves come in the original National Gold line box with the 6414 made in the USA printed on the glass. These are the best 6414 that you can get."
hifinutt
14-01-2014, 20:22
The latest fresh looking silver facsias and white lit buttons are definitely the way to go, looking at that little setup.
Glad you enjoyed it, even if you don't go for one. They can't suit everyone's taste.
yes , its quite a practical solution having dac/pre together and valve as well
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