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Hi guy's just wondered if anyone is using any Russ Andrews bits? I'm thinking of buying some of there cable elevators, some wood shoes for the bottom of the speakers stands, and some wood cones for under the speakers. All in all what I need is £178, I was wondering if is would be a worthwhile upgade? At the moment I have rubber pads under my speakers and metal spike shoes on the stands oh and no cable elevators.
Cheers
Jason..
If you think lifting cables will make any difference why not just make your own.
If you think lifting cables will make any difference why not just make your own.
I've used small blocks of wood in the past and never really heard any difference but I've never tried any made by a company. Russ Andrews claim that there's make a difference and that other cable companies recommend them too. :)
walpurgis
02-09-2013, 19:40
Personally, I don't think you'll hear the slightest difference Jason.
I'd spend the money elsewhere.
The words being fleeced spring to mind.
I'd buy some music Jason.
Don't do it. Invest in a single malt or 2 or 3 instead.
Hi Jason buy a broom handle from your local hardware shop , saw it into blocks and spend the £175 change on something pleasurable:)
Paul
Sovereign
02-09-2013, 21:47
I have spent a lot with RA in the distant past, all the product I have tried have worked, I wouldn't go for the cable elevators though, just a bit too hocus pokus for me.
I still use his oak cones and Torlyte under all my kit to this day and to great effect!
julesd68
02-09-2013, 22:48
Hi Jason buy a broom handle from your local hardware shop , saw it into blocks and spend the £175 change on something pleasurable:)
Paul
Make sure the broom is made of beech wood though like the RA gear, or else if won't have any effect on those pesky vibrations ... ;)
Hi Jason,
I'd just buy the wood cones, mate, as those are liable to be the only thing that makes an appreciable difference! Go for the big buggers, though, as they will have the most profound sonic effect, and also be more stable. Good isolation is important :)
As others have said, use the change to buy more music!
Marco.
Thanks for the help guy's, I'll go for the cones and feet but I'll leave the elevators for now. My girfriend wants me to get them because they look nice I'll have to talk her down now after telling her there a must have LOL.
Cheers
Jason.
realysm42
03-09-2013, 07:22
I use Shunyata research (wait for it) v2 dark field cable elevators.
Do they work? Yes, or I would have sold them immediately. They remove a bit of background noise, music sounds slightly fuller and more focused.
I've got 3 per side, I'll buy more at some point.
The Grand Wazoo
03-09-2013, 07:28
Russ Andrews claim that there's make a difference and that other cable companies recommend them too. :)
Yep, they're made from special hi-fi grade Beech trees - ana-log of course!
Thanks for the help guy's, I'll go for the cones and feet but I'll leave the elevators for now. My girfriend wants me to get them because they look nice I'll have to talk her down now after telling her there a must have LOL.
Lol... Just put your cables on the shoulders of a few action men instead! :D
Marco.
wee tee cee
03-09-2013, 07:51
if you fancy elevating your cables from the floor to see if it has a positive influence, why not save up three or four cardboard toilet paper tube ora couple of kitchen paper tubes. Cut them in half or 4s and cut a small v shape in the top to locate the cable.
If it works for you then spend your own hard earned on aesthetically pleasing ones.
Why not test the theory initially for minimal outlay, just trust your ears......experimentation is part of the hobby.
Gordon Steadman
03-09-2013, 07:54
I'm a woodturner.
I have tried quite a few different things over the years and have never found any significant sonic difference although the wooden cones under the Quads certainly help protect the floor.
What bugs me is the obscene markup. To make any of these widgets would take me 5 minutes max. If it were set up with a copy lathe, probably about 10 seconds.
Presumably though, they are only made round for appearances sake, any old bit of wood with a groove in the top would do the same job, surely!
Oldpinkman
03-09-2013, 08:58
Oh no - cable elevators. Help! Ok, Ok, I'll keep quite for the minute, till I have tried these new designer kettle leads, but, I ask you. Poor Peter Walker will be spinning in his grave :doh:
Oldpinkman
03-09-2013, 09:09
I'm a woodturner.
I have tried quite a few different things over the years and have never found any significant sonic difference although the wooden cones under the Quads certainly help protect the floor.
What bugs me is the obscene markup. To make any of these widgets would take me 5 minutes max. If it were set up with a copy lathe, probably about 10 seconds.
Presumably though, they are only made round for appearances sake, any old bit of wood with a groove in the top would do the same job, surely!
Gordon - you're being naughty now aren't you? Do you mean when you'd finished filling your ears with sawdust you sold on for cost plus 50p for your time? Try making a living out of turning designer cable supports if you think there is one. Half the apparant problem with some nice people on here is they want something for nothing. Our mate Firebottle appears to turn out some lovely kit for silly low prices, but I don't suppose he would have bought his house in France doing it. This is the problem for the few folk trying to run commercial businesses in this declining market (I know hifi is recovering, but on here its all 2nd hand kit from 30 years ago - no manufacturing business is sustainable on that basis - so no innovation and new hifi products being produced (not none - not as much as if there was a bigger market for new product)
To be in business, you need to cover your rent, rates, staff wages, marketing, pay dealer margins, distributor margins and duty on exports, carriage costs, VAT. Reckon on retail price of around 3x full production cost as a decent rule of thumb to have a sustainable business, providing you are just turning out standard products and don't get sucked into bespoking. Oh - I forgot to mention complaint handling, support, advice, warranty repairs....
Obscene mark-up. Maybe some - but remember the difference between running a viable business and boot-fair scrap-hunting. With no new manufacturers, the boot-fairs eventually run out of stock, and this hobby reverts to obscurity for a few dedicated enthusiasts.
:doh:
Lol... Just put your cables on the shoulders of a few action men instead! :D
Marco.
:lol::lol: Nice one Marco!
Oh no - cable elevators. Help! Ok, Ok, I'll keep quite for the minute, till I have tried these new designer kettle leads, but, I ask you. Poor Peter Walker will be spinning in his grave :doh:
I have noticed that since the National Grid started using cable elevators in the form of pylons, the mains supply sounds a whole lot better.
Gordon Steadman
03-09-2013, 10:13
To be in business, you need to cover your rent, rates, staff wages, marketing, pay dealer margins, distributor margins and duty on exports, carriage costs, VAT. Reckon on retail price of around 3x full production cost as a decent rule of thumb to have a sustainable business, providing you are just turning out standard products and don't get sucked into bespoking. Oh - I forgot to mention complaint handling, support, advice, warranty repairs....
Obscene mark-up. Maybe some - but remember the difference between running a viable business and boot-fair scrap-hunting. With no new manufacturers, the boot-fairs eventually run out of stock, and this hobby reverts to obscurity for a few dedicated enthusiasts.
:doh:
I used to run an up-market interior design business with major premises on a high street and the costs were horrendous as you say. I still managed on 100% plus Vat. I don't know anything about the hi-fi retailing business but I reckon I would be pushing it to charge more than 2 euros to make one of these support thingies, especially in beech (which is used because its cheap, turns easily and takes a great finish without any effort at all - forget all the 'sonic properties' bit, its not that dense and is likely to vibrate a bit) I don't know how many you get for £175 or whatever it was but that does rather take mark up to the extreme.
As ever, if someone is prepared to pay then that is entirely their affair. If I laugh a bit into my sleeve, that is mine - and yours apparently:eyebrows:
Lol... Just put your cables on the shoulders of a few action men instead! :D
Marco.
PMSL nice one Marco I'm on it, they've got gripping hands too so might be better for support :lolsign:
I used to run an up-market interior design business with major premises on a high street and the costs were horrendous as you say. I still managed on 100% plus Vat. I don't know anything about the hi-fi retailing business but I reckon I would be pushing it to charge more than 2 euros to make one of these support thingies, especially in beech (which is used because its cheap, turns easily and takes a great finish without any effort at all - forget all the 'sonic properties' bit, its not that dense and is likely to vibrate a bit) I don't know how many you get for £175 or whatever it was but that does rather take mark up to the extreme.
As ever, if someone is prepared to pay then that is entirely their affair. If I laugh a bit into my sleeve, that is mine - and yours apparently:eyebrows:
Thanks for all the tips and advice guy's spot on;) Gordon £175 is with the Russ Andrews cones and feet I'm buying too, the elevators work out at £70 for 8 here's the link and fancy pic :)
http://www.russandrews.com/product-Cable-elevators-4227.htm
Gordon Steadman
03-09-2013, 11:32
Thanks for all the tips and advice guy's spot on;) Gordon £175 is with the Russ Andrews cones and feet I'm buying too, the elevators work out at £70 for 8 here's the link and fancy pic :)
http://www.russandrews.com/product-Cable-elevators-4227.htm
Hmm, how the hell those are going to stop vibration, I can't imagine. The vibes will be straight up the grain and they will sing along with the floor. Surely in order to kill vibration, you need damping of some kind. Sorbothane or even felt might work but wood on wood - no chance at all. I make guitars and the conduction/damping of vibrations in wood is a big part of the business.
Without wishing to be boring, a small vial of snake oil would damp vibrations beautifully.
Alternatively, you could just relax and listen to the music:eek:
Clive197
03-09-2013, 11:50
If the money is burning a hole in your pocket send it to me, I promise not to spend it on fairy dust.
Wakefield Turntables
03-09-2013, 13:37
Being a tight arse I tend to save stuff, this includes a load of 2x4 from when I built my extension. I do use cable elevators but simply to give my cables a few extra inches distance from the power supplies and also to separate the cables from one another. I prefer the sound of the system with them in, they cost NOTHING to make. Moral of he story is simply go to your garage dig out some old wood and make your own. It may just improve your system, FOR FREE. :)
If the money is burning a hole in your pocket send it to me, I promise not to spend it on fairy dust.
LOL no problem Clive;)
Being a tight arse I tend to save stuff, this includes a load of 2x4 from when I built my extension. I do use cable elevators but simply to give my cables a few extra inches distance from the power supplies and also to separate the cables from one another. I prefer the sound of the system with them in, they cost NOTHING to make. Moral of he story is simply go to your garage dig out some old wood and make your own. It may just improve your system, FOR FREE. :)
Thanks for the tip Andrew I'll have a bash at some:)
sq225917
03-09-2013, 15:50
Jason, I have a suggestion; spend nothing with Russ Andrews and buy a book on physics instead.
realysm42
03-09-2013, 16:02
I don't know why people bother with too, it never does anything positive to the sound.
Not that I've wasted my time trying, mind.
Gordon Steadman
03-09-2013, 16:03
I don't know why people bother with too, it never does anything positive to the sound.
Not that I've wasted my time trying, mind.
I am struggling with the logic of this statement:scratch:
realysm42
03-09-2013, 16:49
I'm being sarcastic/stupid.
Sovereign
03-09-2013, 20:34
Hmm, how the hell those are going to stop vibration, I can't imagine. The vibes will be straight up the grain and they will sing along with the floor. Surely in order to kill vibration, you need damping of some kind. Sorbothane or even felt might work but wood on wood - no chance at all. I make guitars and the conduction/damping of vibrations in wood is a big part of the business.
Without wishing to be boring, a small vial of snake oil would damp vibrations beautifully.
Alternatively, you could just relax and listen to the music:eek:
RA cones are not beech they are oak, cable elevators do not 'kill/absorb' vibrations at all. I'm not a huge RA fan but don't slate a man before you have bothered to find out what he is saying.
twickers
03-09-2013, 20:47
I believe Russ Andrews offers a 60 day home trial on his gear. So whether it works or not people can try it at home and if they don't likey they get a refund.
Wakefield Turntables
03-09-2013, 20:54
Jason, I have a suggestion; spend nothing with Russ Andrews and buy a book on physics instead.
ouch! :lol:
julesd68
04-09-2013, 11:02
RA cones are not beech they are oak, cable elevators do not 'kill/absorb' vibrations at all. I'm not a huge RA fan but don't slate a man before you have bothered to find out what he is saying.
I believe Gordon was referring to the cable elevators in his reply which Jason linked to and these are made of beech. On the RA website there are indeed no claims about the wood itself absorbing any vibrations but then very little info is given at all, so am not sure RA knows exactly what he's saying as such -
< But it makes sense to lift any speaker cable away from one area where vibrations are often highest - the floor. >
In which case you could use anything to do the job if you think it's worthwhile, so the only reason to buy the RA ones is if you think they are aesthetically pleasing.
Gordon Steadman
04-09-2013, 11:40
RA cones are not beech they are oak, cable elevators do not 'kill/absorb' vibrations at all. I'm not a huge RA fan but don't slate a man before you have bothered to find out what he is saying.
Strange, as that is exactly what he says they do. They may lift the cables away from the floor but they will also transmit the vibes. There are times when I tend to believe physics over whatever a salesman may try and tell me.
Gordon Steadman
04-09-2013, 11:44
I believe Gordon was referring to the cable elevators in his reply which Jason linked to and these are made of beech. On the RA website there are indeed no claims about the wood itself absorbing any vibrations but then very little info is given at all, so am not sure RA knows exactly what he's saying as such -
< But it makes sense to lift any speaker cable away from one area where vibrations are often highest - the floor. >
In which case you could use anything to do the job if you think it's worthwhile, so the only reason to buy the RA ones is if you think they are aesthetically pleasing.
Indeed, I didn't read your post properly and you have said all that needed to be said.
Audioman
04-09-2013, 11:57
If people use their hi-fi for listening to music they wouldn't be bothered by this b****ks. Where in physics does it say a physical born vibration can affect electrons passing through a cable? The only effect these cable supports are likely to have is better separating cables from each other (speaker cable from power cable). So reducing electrical interference. Also when did oak start rivaling the price of gold ? Can't see any difference sonically between Oak and other cheaper woods.
Gordon Steadman
04-09-2013, 12:14
If people use their hi-fi for listening to music they wouldn't be bothered by this b****ks. Where in physics does it say a physical born vibration can affect electrons passing through a cable? The only effect these cable supports are likely to have is better separating cables from each other (speaker cable from power cable). So reducing electrical interference. Also when did oak start rivaling the price of gold ? Can't see any difference sonically between Oak and other cheaper woods.
Well, to be charitable, I wouldn't use oak in a musical instrument because its relatively dead and doesn't do much for the tone. I assume that shielded cables would solve the problem of separation. Anyway, apparently, physics has very little to do with perceptions and expectations.
I can't remember who sang "the more you pay, the more its worth".
Oldpinkman
04-09-2013, 12:24
Since my new mains cables are still in the post, and I promised to be good until I had had the opportunity to evaluate them seriously and find out for myself what I have been missing, can I just post a silent scream pro tem?
Ta :cool:
Gordon Steadman
04-09-2013, 14:08
Since my new mains cables are still in the post, and I promised to be good until I had had the opportunity to evaluate them seriously and find out for myself what I have been missing, can I just post a silent scream pro tem?
Ta :cool:
I 'spose that's allowed.
We will just have to accept Horatio.................
realysm42
04-09-2013, 14:40
Physics - the unarguable law.
Oldpinkman
04-09-2013, 16:14
Physics - the unarguable law.
Not on this planet. I watched Erich von Daniken trying to suggest Menhir in Brittany were navigation aids for extra-terrestrials last night and he made more sense than some of the black-art propoponents on here. Can you believe that the "gods" having managed to travel a few hundred light years at the least, either at faster than the speed of light, or with impressive longevity, dodging space debris, then need lumps of rock to know where they are?
Bet they had bloody good mains leads on that ship! (Oh bugger - sorry, strike that last comment from the record) :doh:
Gordon Steadman
04-09-2013, 16:37
Not on this planet. I watched Erich von Daniken trying to suggest Menhir in Brittany were navigation aids for extra-terrestrials last night and he made more sense than some of the black-art propoponents on here. Can you believe that the "gods" having managed to travel a few hundred light years at the least, either at faster than the speed of light, or with impressive longevity, dodging space debris, then need lumps of rock to know where they are?
Bet they had bloody good mains leads on that ship! (Oh bugger - sorry, strike that last comment from the record) :doh:
Oh ye gods - Von Daniken. I had all his books when I were a lad and even then I found him only mildly amusing. Total gobbledegook dressed up as scientific investigation. Its a good thing we wouldn't be taken in by that sort of rubbish these days.
Oldpinkman
04-09-2013, 16:51
Oh ye gods - Von Daniken. I had all his books when I were a lad and even then I found him only mildly amusing. Total gobbledegook dressed up as scientific investigation. Its a good thing we wouldn't be taken in by that sort of rubbish these days.
:whistle:
You're not going to lure me into making another boob Gordon. My lips are sealed. Well - not for drink obviously :cool:
realysm42
04-09-2013, 19:14
Richard, I know nothing of that show, but why is that so ridiculous?
Look at the lofty technological heights we've reached as a race and yet, we have our simple limitations, for example, the x-factor exists.
Sovereign
04-09-2013, 22:08
Transmitting vibes or dumping is RA preference,' kill/absorb' is not
Sovereign
04-09-2013, 22:12
Well, to be charitable, I wouldn't use oak in a musical instrument because its relatively dead and doesn't do much for the tone. .
Thats it mate, RA doesn't want the feet/isolators to have any tone at all, but neutral.
I sound like an RA fan and I'm really not. I spend a few grand with him when I was young, and was taken by the upgrade scheme, but now I have found excellent products at fractions of the cost. But I have to admit all the RA products I tried worked, and I tried quite a few.
Where in physics does it say a physical born vibration can affect electrons passing through a cable?
Have you ever turned the gain up with, say, a microphone and cable connected up? Without touching the mic, you can bend and twist the cable and hear the induced noises quite easily. Cable can be microphonic - in other words, susceptible to vibrations.
Oldpinkman
05-09-2013, 05:27
Have you ever turned the gain up with, say, a microphone and cable connected up? Without touching the mic, you can bend and twist the cable and hear the induced noises quite easily. Cable can be microphonic - in other words, susceptible to vibrations.
Nope. We run 6m lengths, twist it, tread on it, pull it about - not a dicky bird. We get that affect from faulty cable - and replace it. Simple test. You sit there listening to music blindfold and I will wiggle your speaker cable and you tell me when you can hear it.
The Outcast
05-09-2013, 07:21
Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssnake oil!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oldpinkman
05-09-2013, 07:30
Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssnake oil!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've promised not to use that word again, until I have carried out a proper open minded test of my new mains cables due today I think. But I'm inclined.....
The Black Adder
05-09-2013, 07:32
Hi Jason. Have you tried hanging the cables on the wall? Electrons flow better down hill...
:lol:
I'm with Hesketh on this one.. Those damn snakes get in to everything. My Russ Andrews comic was dripping with it the other day as per usual. heheh
Oldpinkman
05-09-2013, 07:34
Hi Jason. Have you tried hanging the cables on the wall? Electrons flow better down hill...
:lol:
:rofl:
julesd68
05-09-2013, 10:13
I've promised not to use that word again, until I have carried out a proper open minded test of my new mains cables due today I think. But I'm inclined.....
:popcorn: We await the votes of the Kent jury!!
Ah ha! That is a great idea!!
Hi Jason. Have you tried hanging the cables on the wall? Electrons flow better down hill...
Can we make a marketing package around it?! perhaps engineer a 'downward sloping system path for enhanced electron management?' :)
:LOL:
(nevermind they go back up the other wire, but hey it sounds great!)
Transmitting vibes or dumping is RA preference,' kill/absorb' is not
I would agree with this preference hence why I use a Mana rack and spike-coupled speaker stands.
Gordon Steadman
05-09-2013, 11:52
Transmitting vibes or dumping is RA preference,' kill/absorb' is not
Ah, sorry, I misunderstood. The idea is to transmit the vibrations straight from the floor into the cables. Silly me, I didn't think of that.
Oldpinkman
05-09-2013, 11:52
Ah ha! That is a great idea!!
Can we make a marketing package around it?! perhaps engineer a 'downward sloping system path for enhanced electron management?' :)
:LOL:
(nevermind they go back up the other wire, but hey it sounds great!)
The fact ac current flows in both directions never stopped the directional cable brigade, so I see no problem with slopes. Should we colour code them for efficiency like ski-slopes? Black run cables for me I think :rolleyes:
Have you ever turned the gain up with, say, a microphone and cable connected up? Without touching the mic, you can bend and twist the cable and hear the induced noises quite easily. Cable can be microphonic - in other words, susceptible to vibrations.
No so Martin. The noises you hear have nothing to do with vibration. They are caused by triboelectrical effects: the generation and subsequent discharge of static charges, caused by friction between the dielectric and the outer screen.
To avoid these 'handling noises', most quality microphone cables have a thin semi-conducting layer between the dielectric and the screen.
Look like 1970s curtain rail holders.
http://www.russandrews.com/images/products/4227l.jpg
It is no wonder a lot of people think that audiofiles are weird.
The Black Adder
05-09-2013, 13:55
Ah ha! That is a great idea!!
Can we make a marketing package around it?! perhaps engineer a 'downward sloping system path for enhanced electron management?' :)
:LOL:
(nevermind they go back up the other wire, but hey it sounds great!)
LOL...
Combined DSP & EEM-i (DSPEEM-i™) integral systems for improved electrical conductivity.
WIKI: DSPEEM-i™:
"Developed in the furthest reaches of Peru this system utilitises an anti-gravity based theory of which both conductors react with and counteracts gravity and it's effect on other opposing theories and conductors. The result is a cleaner, less restrictive flow of electrons that are no longer affected by gravity yet affected by the force of gravity and none gravity. The cables are normally coated in a coating of a 0.00000.1micron non-ferrous alloy which carries the signal to and from the amplifier as it would do with a none coated conductor coat. The material base used for this coating does not exist.
This is a bit off topic as it does not relate to Russ Andrews product exclusively, but I think the whole debate regarding cables touching walls and floors etc. is an interesting one. I know that some people on this forum believe that cables should not touch the wall, skirting board or the floor. On the Naim forum, the idea that cables (interconnects) should not touch the floor or the equipment stand seems to be quite prevalent and accepted. For my part I have to say that I've not found there to be any issues with cables resting on the floor, touching the walls etc. The logic that the cable is picking up and passing on vibration also seems highly questionable to me. A piece of cable is not a sensitive transducer; pretty much all cables are also heavily damped and very poor transducers of mechanical vibration. Likewise, whilst speakers may be spiked to the floor, the boards are then lagged in a layer of underlay and then carpet - both good mechanical insulators.
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