Denon DL103

[Andrei]

Good morning / afternoon / evening (as the case may be)

I have a question for the collective wisdom of the vinyl spinners here. I have a friend who has a new Denon DL 103r cartridge. His turntable has expired and has gone to that happy spinning place in the sky. Hence he is looking for a turntable that has an arm suitable for his cartridge. A Technics SL 1210 is available. Would that be a suitable option, and if not: any other suggestions?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yes the 103 works very well with techies it should be ok on the stock arm. They work really well on SME arms as well.

[NRG]

IME you need a massy arm for the 103 or 103r to work at its best, the 3009 does not have enough nor the 309. Don't know about the stock Techie arm but unless its up around +18gm then its not the best mount. The 750D is spot on for it though.

[Tarzan]

Yes the 103 works very well with techies it should be ok on the stock arm. They work really well on SME arms as well.


x2

[walpurgis]

IME you need a massy arm for the 103 or 103r to work at its best, the 3009 does not have enough nor the 309. Don't know about the stock Techie arm but unless its up around +18gm then its not the best mount. The 750D is spot on for it though.

The 103 works very well in my low mass Mission 774 if the fluid damping is right.

[Idlewithnodrive]

Yes the 103 works very well with techies it should be ok on the stock arm. They work really well on SME arms as well.

x 3

[NRG]

The 103 works very well in my low mass Mission 774 if the fluid damping is right.

But are u hearing it at its best? I doubt it. IMHO.

[walpurgis]

Why would you doubt it? It works fine, as do all my other low compliance MCs and the very low compliance Deccas I've owned. It also works great with my ultra high compliance ADCs. Remember, Decca's own International arm was a low mass device with fluid damping, which was capable of working with low and high compliance types.

If you've used a 774 arm you'd know what I'm saying, they work with any cartridge I've come across, high and low compliance.

[Mike A]

I have a 103r doing temporary duty in my SME V and it definitely needed more mass to sound good and a bit of insulating tape around the plastic body improved the imaging as well. A change of body is in this cartridge's future.

[Haselsh1]

I am toying with the idea of buying a standard Denon DL 103 and using it in my Project RPM-4 standard tonearm but with a little weight added to bring the arm mass up a bit. I remember around thirty years ago listening to a 103 and the treble sounded a bit rough around the edges so hopefully the extra weight will ease that a little. I also remember the sound of the 103 bass and my God what a fab bass it was.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Its a well known fact that the 103 improves with it being "re-bodied". I've a vanilla 103 sitting on my 3012 and I'm perfectly happy with it. If and when I can be bothered I might have a little go a modifying it with a new body :eyebrows:

[Andrei]

Thanks very much for the input guys, I will pass on your collective wisdom.

[Marco]

Ah, and just before I was about to reply and slightly disagree with some of the comments, as I truly know this cartridge and its requirements for optimum performance, inside out. My views are mostly aligned with Neal's. If you wish me to elaborate, then I shall :)

Marco.

[Mike A]

Ah, and just before I was about to reply and slightly disagree with some of the comments, as I truly know this cartridge and its requirements for optimum performance, inside out. My views are mostly aligned with Neal's. If you wish me to elaborate, then I shall :)

Marco.

I would be very interested if you were to elaborate as it is likely to be a while before my VdH cartridge returns from Holland, as long as the OP doesn't mind having his thread hijacked of course ;)

[Andrei]

I would be very interested if you were to elaborate as it is likely to be a while before my VdH cartridge returns from Holland, as long as the OP doesn't mind having his thread hijacked of course ;)
I would be interested as well.

[Marco]

I'll get to this later, chaps. If I haven't replied by tomorrow morning, someone remind me! :)

Marco.

[Wakefield Turntables]

:popcorn:

[Ali Tait]

Interested in this, having just bought a 103r.

[Wakefield Turntables]

You could have a form just dedicated to the 103 there have been that many variants over the years it's extremely hard to keep up. :eek:

[mike1210]

I myself have a 103r on a Jelco 750D arm on my techie and love it to bits.

Never tried it with the standard arm but it sure does sing on the Jelco.

Previously had a Denon dl-160 on it and sound quality went up a level, bigger sound-stage and more exiting sound.

[NRG]

Interested in this, having just bought a 103r.

Get it re-bodied Ali, you where listening to mine at the last Owston meet on the KD550. It makes a hell of a difference.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/PL-71/DSCF6923.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/DSCF4547_800_600.jpg

[Yomanze]

I concur about a new body or plate. I nuded mine and mounted it to a brass plate using epoxy resin. Much more focus and detail.

[Andrew B]

The 103 is definitely much better re-bodied or nude, but in my case I prefer the 103r which is available off the peg.

[AlfaGTV]

There's two issues with the DL-103 (r) IMO which will always lessen it's appeal to me:
1. VTF ~ 2.5Gr - Ohhh! That WILL literally put some pressure on my precious discs!
2. Hemispherical diamond shape. Makes issue No:1 even more concerning!

[Ali Tait]

Get it re-bodied Ali, you where listening to mine at the last Owston meet on the KD550. It makes a hell of a difference.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/PL-71/DSCF6923.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/DSCF4547_800_600.jpg

Aye, something to consider in the future. Just want to get the TT up and running for a start!

[Allan W.]

I used the 103 with a stock Techincs SL-1210 and liked the way it performed. Later, I upgraded the 1210's arm to the Jelco 750. There was a marked improvement, so I purchased a 103r. A little later I got a hardwood body off E-Bay and with help of a YouTube video, I took a knife to the 103r and replaced the body. I am a very happy camper these days.

[Andrei]

There's two issues with the DL-103 (r) IMO which will always lessen it's appeal to me:
1. VTF ~ 2.5Gr - Ohhh! That WILL literally put some pressure on my precious discs!
2. Hemispherical diamond shape. Makes issue No:1 even more concerning!

Mike, as mentioned in the OP (original post) this issue is an inquiry of mine for an non-forum member. All the same I would be much obliged if you could elaborate for me. I was under the impression that the spherical tip of the 103, as distinct from an ellipse* would increase the surface area of contact between the stylus and the vinyl. This is assuming that the 'pointy' parts of the ellipse face longitudinally, ie towards the edge at one end and the center of the record at the other. If the area of contact is increased then I would have thought that this would diminish the concern about the pressure.

*please nobody say a sphere is 3D and an ellipse is 2D. (Nitpickers are harmless but don't really add content.)

[AlfaGTV]

Andrei, thats a common mistake. The more elaborate shape, the less pressure per square mm.
http://www.ortofon.com/images/stories/stylus/Everything%20you%20need%20to%20know%20about%20cart ridges_Stylus%20type.pdf
Not very technical, but you'll get the idea! :)

And i do like the DL-103, use one daily... But the two issues i mentioned still nags me...
Regards Mike

[NRG]

Mike, as mentioned in the OP (original post) this issue is an inquiry of mine for an non-forum member. All the same I would be much obliged if you could elaborate for me. I was under the impression that the spherical tip of the 103, as distinct from an ellipse* would increase the surface area of contact between the stylus and the vinyl. This is assuming that the 'pointy' parts of the ellipse face longitudinally, ie towards the edge at one end and the center of the record at the other. If the area of contact is increased then I would have thought that this would diminish the concern about the pressure.

*please nobody say a sphere is 3D and an ellipse is 2D. (Nitpickers are harmless but don't really add content.)

The elliptical & line contact profiles actually have more surface area. You wont find a much better source of info than these series of posts on vinylengine: http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22894

Go to the post timed at 22:56, about 3/4 of the way down for a chart on contact areas...

**** Edit, you'll need to cut n paste the above link into google to be able to read the thread!

[Andrei]

Andrei, thats a common mistake. The more elaborate shape, the less pressure per square mm.
http://www.ortofon.com/images/stories/stylus/Everything%20you%20need%20to%20know%20about%20cart ridges_Stylus%20type.pdf
Not very technical, but you'll get the idea! :)

And i do like the DL-103, use one daily... But the two issues i mentioned still nags me...
Regards Mike

Looking at Fig. 8 it is ... well whatever it is. It appears to show a greater contact area. So far so good. So it seems the narrow part of an ellipse is of greater radius than the radius of a circle (total areas being the same) ... or the the ellipse name is nothing more than a name, ie the full three dimensional shape (of an elliptical stylus) is designed to to have more contact area.

[Andrew B]

I'm not a techie in any way, so please feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong but aren't those extended ellipses more likely than conical ones to mistrack and damage grooves near end of side? It seems logical that the extended contact area will diminish more and more as the arc of the arm is travelled from the null point (is that the correct term?). Like I said, I'm no techie and will never claim to be. I'm asking to learn as well as to clarify.

As for tracking weight, most MCs I've used tend to need more tracking force than MMs. 2.25 seems typical and the Denon seems to be OK with 2.3 upwards. I do use 2.5 myself and have used 103s almost exclusively since 2005. No issues with record wear as yet and I don't have a huge collection so I play them regularly.

It's a fascinating cartridge and I'm enjoying reading this thread. Anyone tried one of the more "exotic" incarnations of the 103? I'm talking about official versions rather than hot-rodded cooking variety here. I've been tempted, but they do get expensive.

[walpurgis]

I'm not preaching to those who already understand, but there's an easy way to look at this.

The groove of a record is 'V' shaped (approximately), so the ideal stylus tip would be the same shape in section. A conical stylus is basically ball ended and it is the ball shape that sits in the groove.

A cone is also 'V' shaped, so an analogy would be to put a ball in a cone shaped hole, the ball would only make a circular contact over a small area. Put a cone into the cone shaped hole and you have contact across the full depth of the hole, therefore 'line contact' across a vertical section. The same principle applies to line contact styli, as they approach a pure conical section in profile and offer a deeper contact length. The superiority over conical tips extends to the reduced front to back thickness, this allows the ever changing fine groove modulations (wiggles) to be followed more accurately, as opposed to being 'ridden over' by a round tip.

[Andrew B]

I can follow that part, but my concern is that the stylus is very rarely aligned perfectly with the groove, because of the tangential tracking of the arm. I'm wondering if line contact stylii would actually perform worse at the extremes. I find the Denon to be a really good tracker, especially compared to previous line contact jobbies and wondered if conical actually gives a more even performance. Like I said, I'm not technical in any way so if I'm wrong, I wouldn't be surprised :)

[walpurgis]

Yes there is always error with pivoted arms and usually a degree of VTA error on any arm. Linear tracking arms theoretically provide the perfect solution, but they have their compromises too.

[Dominic Harper]

Conical tips do not pick out inner detail, front to back layering of detail as a line contact would. This does not mean a conical tip cannot sound good. End of side distortion is not a consequence of conical tips, rather a byproduct of poor tonearm design, cartridge/tonearm matching or setup issues.
The quality of the overall system will determine how good a cartridge will perform.
Time and time again I see turntables not set up correctly, or people are using exotic cartridges in a vain hope to extend the performance of their turntables.
You will get far better results using a superior turntable and arm with a budget cartridge. I use the word budget in context here.

Going back to the humble Denon 103. This cartridge in its standard form is nothing special, but once modified will do some very impressive things and will outperform some very expensive moving coils. Changing the cantilever and tip brings a huge improvement. Going one further and replacing the coils will bring another massive improvement.
Bodies can also be changed to change the tonality but offers a limited change in performance.

To conclude, changing cantllever/tip and coils, plus body and you have a cartridge that will out perform cartridges over £2000 quite easily.
Once this work is done tracking ability is also improved and I get these tracking around 1.9 grams thus improving stylus life.

The fact that a stock 103 tracks around 2.5 grams is not an issue. Better it tracks securely as this will save your vinyl, not wear it out.

[walpurgis]

Dominic, I can see the appeal of modifying the 103, but isn't that rather like the forty year old hammer, still going and only had two heads and four handles? I mean, there's little left of the original 103 after all that.

[Ali Tait]

Dom, what can you do with a 103r and a rough idea of prices please?

[Dominic Harper]

If you like the sound of a stock 103 then what Im suggesting is of no consequence. However if you want a superb cartridge on the relative cheap then you can do far worse.

Modifications as suggested include-

Boron cantilever and micro ridge tip £375

New coil windings using superior wiring wire £300

Body replacement down to cost of body chosen and would need to be supplied, but I do recommend the wood bodies available.
Caveat, the body change is minor once above modifications are done.

[Ali Tait]

Thanks Dom, food for thought..

[NRG]

Dominic, I can see the appeal of modifying the 103, but isn't that rather like the forty year old hammer, still going and only had two heads and four handles? I mean, there's little left of the original 103 after all that.

My feelings as well, I'm sure a modified one would sound great and be reliable but I cant help thinking that at what...£925 all in? for the mods, body and 103 you'd get more milage by getting something like a Shelter 5000....dunno :scratch:

[Ali Tait]

Dom, your inbox is full!

[Dominic Harper]

Ali inbox sorted.
Even carts like the Shelter use inferior coil wire. Believe me I know. I have wound many very expensive carts and just changing the windings will bring surprising results.
A modded 103 will be far better than anything most people could hope to afford.

[blake]

Ali inbox sorted.
Even carts like the Shelter use inferior coil wire. Believe me I know. I have wound many very expensive carts and just changing the windings will bring surprising results.
A modded 103 will be far better than anything most people could hope to afford.

Exactly. I have two 103R's here, one in an aluminum body, one in an ebony body. Both have been retipped with ruby cantilevers and line contact styli and also potted in the bodies as Zu does by Soundsmith.

These are very, very good cartridges. Among the cartridges that I've heard in pretty good setups that I wouldn't be interested in trading for (even with no cash exchanged unless I was simply going to turn around and sell the more expensive cartridge and rebuy/modify to get what I already have) are Koetsu Rosewood, Van den Hul Colibri, Clearaudio Insider Gold, etc. There's an interesting thread at Audiokarma comparing a modded 103 or 103R to an Allaerts.

You're not going to hear what these cartridges are capable of on a budget setup. They require a very good table, a sympathetic (high mass) arm and a very high quality phono stage to sound their best. As the 103 (and to a certain extent the 103R) is very inexpensive, there's a tendency to pair it up with fairly inexpensive ancillaries. These cartridges require high quality front ends and phono stages to show what they are really capable of. Sorry, you are not going to hear it through a Cambridge 640P.

As to cost, I have about $650 Cnd into each of these cartridges, or about 400 GBP.

I agree with pretty much everything Dom has said; I do, however, believe the body change to be very beneficial and offer up almost as much, or as much, in benefits, as retipping with a good line contact stylus.

[Andrei]

I think there are two ways to look at this. One is from the top and the other is from the front.
Looking from the front an elliptical shape would be better inasmuch as there is a greater contact area, which in turn would enable a larger weight.
From the top an elliptical shape would have a smaller contact area than a round shape. This time there is a trade off; the smaller area would result in greater tracking ability, but would there a greater pressure from the weight (2.5g for a 103 apparently) of the stylus.

[blake]

The "issues" of tracking force and conical stylus are really "non-issues".

I've run 103R's exclusively for more than 7 years now, tracking the original conical stylus at 2.6 grams (for about 1500-1700 hours) and the line contact styli on them since then (probably close to 4000 hours) at about 2.4-2.45 grams with absolutely no problems and no more record wear than I've experienced with other cartidges that tracked between 1.5 and 1.8 grams. My records are in great shape and sound wonderful.

Set cartridges up, align them properly and get the azimuth right and you shouldn't have problems. For the most part, my experience is that most cartridges perform best tracking in the upper end of the range specified by the manufacturer; you'll generally do much more damage with mistracking by tracking cartridges too lightly.

[Marco]

Spot on, Blake! :exactly:

The delicate little darlings should try using an SPU, which tracks at 4g! :eek: :eyebrows: Oh, and every record I own, bought from new and played with a DL-103 and/or SPU, is in virtually the same condition, in some cases 20 years on, as it was when I first got it.

More later today on the 103, chaps, as promised!

Marco.

[wiicrackpot]

More later today on the 103, chaps, as promised!

Marco.
Do you need to Google it or sumfing ???, :sofa: waiting for your answers is like waiting for the appearance of a Prima Donna. :D

[Marco]

Lol, soz - too many things to do these days, mate, especially as the forum is forever growing!! Rest assured that I shall pop along later today to impart some half-sensible bollocks :D

Marco.

[NRG]

Ali inbox sorted.
Even carts like the Shelter use inferior coil wire. Believe me I know. I have wound many very expensive carts and just changing the windings will bring surprising results.
A modded 103 will be far better than anything most people could hope to afford.

...but then its no longer a 103 or 103R and you'll loose the essence of what the 103 is. Using a wood body enhances what we/I like about the 103 cartridges, if I want a different presentation I'll go and buy a different cartridge...its a bit like all the modifications to the LP-12 over the years, the latest full spec. deck is fantastic, a good friend of mine has one but its not an LP-12 (well not as I would know one) and I question wether it would have been better to just go and get an alternative deck....just my 2p worth!

[Rare Bird]

+1 Neal

[Ali Tait]

...but then its no longer a 103 or 103R and you'll loose the essence of what the 103 is. Using a wood body enhances what we/I like about the 103 cartridges, if I want a different presentation I'll go and buy a different cartridge...its a bit like all the modifications to the LP-12 over the years, the latest full spec. deck is fantastic, a good friend of mine has one but its not an LP-12 (well not as I would know one) and I question wether it would have been better to just go and get an alternative deck....just my 2p worth!

LOSE man LOSE, not loose! :lol:

[Dominic Harper]

I think people need to read the posts carefully.
All I was saying is what CAN be achieved with a 103.

[Andrew B]

Whilst I think you're right about it being a whole different cartridge, I'd really love to try it one day. The coils would perhaps interest me more than the new cantilever and diamond, but I'd be open to them too. I certainly haven't liked the carts with boron or ruby cantilevers I've tried, but that might not be down to the cantilevers.

Can anyone explain what is inferior about the standard coils (in dummy language, please). Is it the workmanship in terms of the way they are wound, or is it the wire used? The amounts are so tiny, it seems an odd place to cut corners. I'm not a lover of silver cable usually. I find it tends to wreck the musicality and timing for me. If its just replacing copper with silver, I'd be far less keen.

Looking forward to learning more.

[Dominic Harper]

I am not about to explain in great length about windings, but I will say even some very expensive carts seem to be using very basic winding wire. The quality of the materials used can be improved upon.
Why do you think some carts cost thousands of pounds???
I use copper wire for my windings.

[Ali Tait]

I think people need to read the posts carefully.
All I was saying is what CAN be achieved with a 103.

Thanks for the info Dom, will probably be a route I'll go down at a later date.

[Andrew B]

I am not about to explain in great length about windings, but I will say even some very expensive carts seem to be using very basic winding wire. The quality of the materials used can be improved upon.
Why do you think some carts cost thousands of pounds???
I use copper wire for my windings.

Sorry, Dom, but I was only seeking a little more info. Nobody asked you for great detail. I was only wanting to know if improving the coils was down to better wire, better workmanship or both. As for your comment about why do cartridges cost many thousands, I think it's a question many of us ask. Surely no precious metal or other expensive winding adds that sort of cost. I figured it was extensive labour costs and the large margins of high end hifi. Which is exactly why (as a 103 lover of many years) I was interested in your mods, which don't have a high end price tag IMO.

[NRG]

LOSE man LOSE, not loose! :lol:

:lolsign: