My new Pre Amp and why

[MikeMusic]

For any new purchase I usually spend a long time on sorting out the market, checking out as much as I can and can be a long time before I buy.

Recently I realised the one thing I don't have is time.
So how on earth am I going to listen to the short list of kit and somehow compare it one to the other multiple times as well.
Theoretically I can. Practically it can't happen.
Much shorter short list ?
How about 1 ?

I found a used Pass Labs XP-20 at a very good price.
Quizzed Martin T hard on why he has one and why - if you get my drift. He has good ears and he’s compared more than probably even he can remember. I’ve heard his system so have heard the Pass before.

It arrived Thursday and just for a change I didn't have time to set it all up and listen to it properly. Full details may bore you to sleep. Try running your own print business for a start.
From cold it seemed rather good. Few tracks swapping between Naim 82 and time for bed as knackered

Last night, 24 hours later, Pass now warmer, SWMBO joined me
First few bars from Mavis and she was sold.
“Is this the new one ?”
Yes
“That’s it then”
Hey I'm the hifi buff and she's only got one working ear !
:)
Played the track through, swapped to the Naim 82. Detail missing alert - obvious downgrade

Still with the Naim
LP - Ry Cooder – Go home girl
Swap to Pass
Obvious big upgrade
This is yet another change I didn’t see coming in the way it delivers the improvement.
The detail that is just ‘there’.
The Naim sounds ‘normal’ on it's own
Swap to the Pass and you hear the bits you missed. A lot of bits.
Normality has changed utterly

The Pass is detailed and analytical but warm and rounded as well. Uh !?:scratch:

At the same db level as the 82 it is louder. Assume that is the detail again. Wonderful

I now realise what I’ve been doing for years and I don’t need to do it anymore

You know when you turn up the volume to get more ?
I don’t need to anymore

Is there a better Pre Amp that costs less ?
Possible, but I have the sound I want now and whenever I want it

Oh and more to come as I set up properly and add balanced cables
Gimme the music

[DSJR]

Well done Mike! Remember when you doubted you could better a Naim and 'some' of us kept trying to tell you????

My definition of a good preamp is one that doesn't add or subtract anything audible from the input signal. Preamps have been the bane of many enthusiasts lives for decades, supposedly being the easiest to get right, but so many Top End manufacturers deliberately adding their own 'flavour' to the mix (Audio Research [and CJ?] are still doing it, the ARC Reference series over-egging the pudding at every expensive turn and still finding things to 'improve!'). Naim preamps have been hobbled all the way with outdated 1950's circuitry and power supply requirements along with outdated band-limiting which modern power amp designs don't need, but the cachet of this brand seems to blind people of a 'certain age' to their deliberate shortcomings.

Now for the power amp Mike, and here is where you'll get enormous benefits once the bug bites. Middle aged Big Krells are affordable now and will wipe the pants off any naim power amp now you have a more suitable preamp. I reserve personal judgement on expensive Chord power amps (sorry MartinT) since they are mainly priced as boutique items (that casework costs a fortune in the UK to present to this standard), but old Levinson and Krell poweramps are very well priced and built to last. Just flog that overpriced Naim thing to the blinkered and prepare to hear your passive 'Briks to a high standard you've not heard before and are only hinting at now :lol:

[realysm42]

Congratulations Mike, serious bit of kit from the looks of it.

Don't skimp on the interconnects, before the old "these £5 XLRs do the job just fine" brigade pipe up.

I'm not saying don't try "sensible" cables as well, but I reckon with a pre like that, you can do a lot wrong with naff connections.

I went for something far more expensive than I originally thought I ever would, but after the demo, there was no going back!

I'm not jealous of you ;)

[MikeMusic]

Well done Mike! Remember when you doubted you could better a Naim and 'some' of us kept trying to tell you????

My definition of a good preamp is one that doesn't add or subtract anything audible from the input signal. Preamps have been the bane of many enthusiasts lives for decades, supposedly being the easiest to get right, but so many Top End manufacturers deliberately adding their own 'flavour' to the mix (Audio Research [and CJ?] are still doing it, the ARC Reference series over-egging the pudding at every expensive turn and still finding things to 'improve!'). Naim preamps have been hobbled all the way with outdated 1950's circuitry and power supply requirements along with outdated band-limiting which modern power amp designs don't need, but the cachet of this brand seems to blind people of a 'certain age' to their deliberate shortcomings.

Now for the power amp Mike, and here is where you'll get enormous benefits once the bug bites. Middle aged Big Krells are affordable now and will wipe the pants off any naim power amp now you have a more suitable preamp. I reserve personal judgement on expensive Chord power amps (sorry MartinT) since they are mainly priced as boutique items (that casework costs a fortune in the UK to present to this standard), but old Levinson and Krell poweramps are very well priced and built to last. Just flog that overpriced Naim thing to the blinkered and prepare to hear your passive 'Briks to a high standard you've not heard before and are only hinting at now :lol:


I was young and innocent then !
I'd heard Martin's system and mine sounded poor in comparison. I knew summat was up.
Mana, mains improvements and interconnects had helped massively but still not the full SP.
I was a wee bit surprised at some of the thoughts about Naim on AoS for sure. One of the benefits of being here.
Next are XLR leads for the Pass as it delivers this on RCA on a temporary Mana without spikes
With the improvement I've just had a power amp is no rush.
Krell and Levinson noted.
How about Pass - and keep the balanced chain going to the Power Amp ?

And yes the Iso's deliver and deliver every time I upgrade they tell me what's going on

[MikeMusic]

Congratulations Mike, serious bit of kit from the looks of it.

Don't skimp on the interconnects, before the old "these £5 XLRs do the job just fine" brigade pipe up.

I'm not saying don't try "sensible" cables as well, but I reckon with a pre like that, you can do a lot wrong with naff connections.

I went for something far more expensive than I originally thought I ever would, but after the demo, there was no going back!

I'm not jealous of you ;)
It just sits there, understated and delivers more than you would expect from 2 not that big boxes.
RCA for now. Yannis on the case for XLRs

Sarf London is quite close.
Fancy a Sunday visit ?

[realysm42]

Actually mate, I'm up for that, my girlfriend is working at Bestival next weekend, so I should be free!

[MikeMusic]

Actually mate, I'm up for that, my girlfriend is working at Bestival next weekend, so I should be free!
PM coming

[DSJR]

Naim power amps may use XLR plugs and sockets, but they're not balanced even now I believe. In fact, the older models used mains cable as an interconnect from supply to power amp, with the severe stereo separation compromise as a result (none of the SNAICs used to offer shielded conductors either I remember).

[MikeMusic]

Naim power amps may use XLR plugs and sockets, but they're not balanced even now I believe. In fact, the older models used mains cable as an interconnect from supply to power amp, with the severe stereo separation compromise as a result (none of the SNAICs used to offer shielded conductors either I remember).

I looked up the manual as I was hoping they were balanced being XLR
Seems like an odd way of doing things
>The negative input and output connections for each
channel are common. The mains earth (ground) should
always be connected regardless of what other equipment
is used in conjunction with Naim power amplifiers. This only
grounds the case and the electrostatic screen within the
transformer, and is not connected to the signal negative.
In order to avoid hum loops, the signal negative of the
whole system should be connected to the mains earth
(ground) in one place.
note: Each channel of the NAP 500 is a “bridged”
amplifier, so none of the speaker outlet sockets (+ or -)
is at earth potential. Avoid connecting mains powered
equipment such as electrostatic speakers, sub-woofers
and headphone energisers that do not have a floating
earth. No plug which is connected directly or indirectly to
earth potential should be attached to any speaker outlet

[Spectral Morn]

Pass stuff is wonderful.

I recall well the first time I heard just how important an improvement a pre can make to a system. It was a Bolder series 1010 pre hooked up to a modest Primare poweramp (something like an A30 - can't recall model number - about £1500 ish) and the sound was incredible. Swapping the pre out for something more price appropriate killed the system stone dead.

I would say spend more on the pre and less on the power amps based on that experience and a few others I have had over the years.


Regards Neil

[MikeMusic]

Pass stuff is wonderful.

I recall well the first time I heard just how important an improvement a pre can make to a system. It was a Bolder series 1010 pre hooked up to a modest Primare poweramp (something like an A30 - can't recall model number - about £1500 ish) and the sound was incredible. Swapping the pre out for something more price appropriate killed the system stone dead.

I would say spend more on the pre and less on the power amps based on that experience and a few others I have had over the years.


Regards Neil

:thumbsup:
Great to hear another vote for Pass
I was surprised at what it does for this system

[Stubies]

I found a used Pass Labs XP-20 at a very good price.
Gimme the music

Well that is a great bit of luck! :)

Happy you found some, thats evidence there might be some around for me too.

In fact i do need some luck, the bake off has started but from where I am, I can imagine just past the next bend it might be a long road!

[MikeMusic]

Well that is a great bit of luck! :)

Happy you found some, thats evidence there might be some around for me too.

In fact i do need some luck, the bake off has started but from where I am, I can imagine just past the next bend it might be a long road!

You wait for ages for 1 and then 2 come along !
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181205919428?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

BTW you're well ahead of the game.
Wish I'd found AoS some years ago !

[Macca]

You wait for ages for 1 and then 2 come along !
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181205919428?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Crikey! They're not exactly giving them away, are they?

What is it that makes a pre-amp good and does it have to be so expensive?

[MikeMusic]

Crikey! They're not exactly giving them away, are they?

What is it that makes a pre-amp good and does it have to be so expensive?
About £7700 brand new.
Compares well to a Naim 552 that would cost around that 2nd hand and £18k new
Dunno where and how the 80:20 rule applies.
My aim is top end hifi without telephone numbers.
The Pass is said to rival kit costing way more

[loo]

Very nice Mike, I envy you:D one of my most loved things about this hobby:mental: is that excitement I get from starting a relationship with a new bit of kit that has an immediate improvement over its predecessor , enjoy it:)
Also I have a close friend with a Pass pre/power combo its very very nice and the sessions can become very long, I find it hard to leave sometimes (at least empty handed)
Paul

[MikeMusic]

Very nice Mike, I envy you:D one of my most loved things about this hobby:mental: is that excitement I get from starting a relationship with a new bit of kit that has an immediate improvement over its predecessor , enjoy it:)
Also I have a close friend with a Pass pre/power combo its very very nice and the sessions can become very long, I find it hard to leave sometimes (at least empty handed)
Paul
And don't you also wonder how much better it can get ?
I have many times.
It's so good - then it gets better !
This one was a big jump in SQ

[MartinT]

So glad the XP-20 has worked out for you, Mike. I felt a bit responsible and was scared you might not like it. I knew better, of course, it's why I'm on my third Pass preamp.

I said somewhere else that the preamp is the core of the system and very, very important. If it's fully balanced internally and you have all-balanced components, even better. When you get the Yannis XLR cables and connect the Whest and Rega up in balanced mode, you'll see what I mean. Don't forget to knock the volume back 3-4 notches to match levels since balanced mode doubles the voltage drive.

Another Pass fan. Yay!

[MartinT]

Now for the power amp Mike, and here is where you'll get enormous benefits once the bug bites. Middle aged Big Krells are affordable now and will wipe the pants off any naim power amp now you have a more suitable preamp. I reserve personal judgement on expensive Chord power amps (sorry MartinT) since they are mainly priced as boutique items (that casework costs a fortune in the UK to present to this standard), but old Levinson and Krell poweramps are very well priced and built to last. Just flog that overpriced Naim thing to the blinkered and prepare to hear your passive 'Briks to a high standard you've not heard before and are only hinting at now :lol:

Not at all, Dave, I do understand why Chord don't always convince and their own demonstrations are usually appalling. When you're ready, Mike, there are some very good power amps to be had out there; apart from the older Krells and Mark Levinsons, ones that have impressed me at home are the big Sanders Magtech and Jerry's Parasound. You could always look out for a bargain Pass on eBay too. I reckon you could sell the NAP500 and buy a decent power amp without even being out of pocket!

[Mr. C]

Good to see Naim owners being open minded Mike.

The Pass equipment is well made and sounds very nice, though as Martin says you have a new world of choice that awaits you. Even Chord should you wish ;)

[MartinT]

I love my Chord, Tony, it has seen off a few pretenders in my system even to my own surprise. Potent yet detailed with a great soundstage would be my summary.

[hifi_dave]

You're getting there.

Just ditch the Isobariks for something a little less demanding to drive and hear a whole new world of sound. You won't need a huge amp to drive them either.

[MikeMusic]

So glad the XP-20 has worked out for you, Mike. I felt a bit responsible and was scared you might not like it. I knew better, of course, it's why I'm on my third Pass preamp.

I said somewhere else that the preamp is the core of the system and very, very important. If it's fully balanced internally and you have all-balanced components, even better. When you get the Yannis XLR cables and connect the Whest and Rega up in balanced mode, you'll see what I mean. Don't forget to knock the volume back 3-4 notches to match levels since balanced mode doubles the voltage drive.

Another Pass fan. Yay!
There were other favourable reviews which cemented it's 'pass' rate :)
I also heard it in your system doing it's work.
More to come tomorrow as it gets into the righ place and support

[MikeMusic]

Not at all, Dave, I do understand why Chord don't always convince and their own demonstrations are usually appalling. When you're ready, Mike, there are some very good power amps to be had out there; apart from the older Krells and Mark Levinsons, ones that have impressed me at home are the big Sanders Magtech and Jerry's Parasound. You could always look out for a bargain Pass on eBay too. I reckon you could sell the NAP500 and buy a decent power amp without even being out of pocket!
No rush. I like bargains :)
Is this X250 one ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pass-Labs-X250-/111147034150?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item19e0e12626
Romania is a bit of a punt of course

[MikeMusic]

You're getting there.

Just ditch the Isobariks for something a little less demanding to drive and hear a whole new world of sound. You won't need a huge amp to drive them either.
They would be the last to go -if I could bear to part with them.
Using the kit as the door to more music as I do their time may come up

[MartinT]

Is this X250 one ?

Very nice - that's a great BIN price. Big shipping cost, though. Watch the heat output too, you won't need a radiator in your room with that amp :eek:

[bobbasrah]

Very nice - that's a great BIN price. Big shipping cost, though. Watch the heat output too, you won't need a radiator in your room with that amp :eek:

Working away currently or would offer to go looksee (about 2 hours south of home)
But did you note 120 VAC quote in spec? Seems odd for a 240 model

[MikeMusic]

Working away currently or would offer to go looksee (about 2 hours south of home)
But did you note 120 VAC quote in spec? Seems odd for a 240 model

Yes please ! - sorry for the pause. I literally lost the thread.
Can we check out what
> regulated 120 VAC power line
means and if it's dodgy before you take a trip
What are the electrics run in Romania ?
I think they run 120v on building sites in the UK, possibly for safety

It's also a 2007 model so 6 years old. Could that be a problem ?

Seems like a very cheap price. Do you think that is because it's Romania ?

Just found this looking online, from 2007, so maybe not such a crazy bargain ..... ?
Amp Manufacturer: Pass Labs
Model: X250
Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price: $6,000
Used market average price: $2,500
Basic Specs (watts, etc.): 250W into 8 Ohms. 500W into 4 Ohms

[Yomanze]

Congratulations Mike, serious bit of kit from the looks of it.

Don't skimp on the interconnects, before the old "these £5 XLRs do the job just fine" brigade pipe up.

I'm not saying don't try "sensible" cables as well, but I reckon with a pre like that, you can do a lot wrong with naff connections.

I went for something far more expensive than I originally thought I ever would, but after the demo, there was no going back!

I'm not jealous of you ;)

Regardless of views the consensus seems to be that XLRs do not affect the sound as much as RCAs. I used Mark Grant / Canare Star Quad XLRs when I was using my Krell KRC-3. Good pro audio engineering.

Tellurium Q unlike most other cables 'affect' the sound a lot more, whether this matches taste and synergy with the system is up to the listener. Mark Grant and MCRU stuff is dead neutral though.

Upgrading to balanced mains and investing in room treatments would give way more improvement for less outlay, so wouldn't see Gucci XLRs as the next logical step.

[MikeMusic]

Ok.
Sunday morning. It's been on (and off and n a lot of times) since Thursday evening so warming up nicely.
Comparisons made slightly difficult by the P10 shutting off frequently when I turn the Naim 500 on.

Confirming what I think we heard before. Yes, probably just a little more.

82 and HiCaps off the Mana racking, XP-20 and PSU in place.
Another improvement in SQ which I assume is being on a spiked Mana rack, sitting on 3 soundbases. PSU on the other rack with Naim 500 and PSU and P10
Most noticeable is the uncanny 'loudness'
Listening at the same volume, by db meter, it is so detailed the ear and brain take it as louder.
db meter is a good piece of kit to have around when comparing kit

The XP-20 reveals so much and so subtly - apart from the magic 'loudness' :)

There is just one huge draw back to any Pass kit

Only comes in silver and I really wanted to stay all black
Ho-hum the things we have to put up with
:D

[MikeMusic]

Regardless of views the consensus seems to be that XLRs do not affect the sound as much as RCAs. I used Mark Grant / Canare Star Quad XLRs when I was using my Krell KRC-3. Good pro audio engineering.

Tellurium Q unlike most other cables 'affect' the sound a lot more, whether this matches taste and synergy with the system is up to the listener. Mark Grant and MCRU stuff is dead neutral though.

Upgrading to balanced mains and investing in room treatments would give way more improvement for less outlay, so wouldn't see Gucci XLRs as the next logical step.

Yannis XLRs on their way soon
I'll report back

[Yomanze]

From what they are made out of the Yannis stuff looks like good value, look forward to hearing about your findings. :)

[MikeMusic]

From what they are made out of the Yannis stuff looks like good value, look forward to hearing about your findings. :)
They don't sound right for the price that's for sure !

In a good way of course
:)

[MartinT]

Regardless of views the consensus seems to be that XLRs do not affect the sound as much as RCAs. I used Mark Grant / Canare Star Quad XLRs when I was using my Krell KRC-3. Good pro audio engineering.

Agreed, balanced cables are a lot less variable. However, Yannis' prices are excellent and his silver ConnectLitz with Neutriks the best cables I've used, so I've advised Mike to go for those.

[MartinT]

There is just one huge draw back to any Pass kit

Only comes in silver and I really wanted to stay all black

LOL - you should have gone all-silver, like me. It's my Whest that's out of place!

[MikeMusic]

LOL - you should have gone all-silver, like me. It's my Whest that's out of place!
Guess it underlines my thoughts on hifi

Just be there and make the music better, no need to see you
Opposite to kids
Be heard but not seen !
:)

[Ali Tait]

Is there a website for these cables?

[MikeMusic]

Is there a website for these cables?

No. Certainly not
If there was it would be a secret.







http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/intro.html

[Ali Tait]

:D Ta.

[MikeMusic]

:D Ta.

Mention AoS and you could get a slightly better deal.

And tell him I'm happy to have mine as soon as he likes !

[AlexM]

Mike,

Congratulations on your new Pass pre-amp. I can imagine that you must of been quite suprised at the extent of the improvement as I have had a similar I had the opportunity to demo a C-J ET3SE preamp in my system and it was something of a revelation. Although my existing C-J PV-15 isn't too shabby at all, I was quite astonished at the scale of the upgrade it provided - the phono stage was a huge improvement, and the sound from my SL-1210 with Benz Micro Ace and Jelco arm was quite incredible in terms of detail, stage width and depth even with it's standard feet, platter and no external PSU. The and the sound of the line stages made me reconsider that I needed a better digital front end (I don't!)

I read a lot of posts saying that a pre-amp is unnecessary, and that digital sources can be plumbed directly into a power amp. When I experimented with this I was disappointed. With the ET-3SE I couldn't imagine needing or wanting more. It is a bid financial commitment, but a top flight pre-amp just gives you more of everything - I can't fully explain it in terms of being less of an impediment or loosing detail but it can be a transformation. I certainly reevaluated where I was getting best bang for the buck.

Good luck with it and enjoy the music!.

Alex

[Spectral Morn]

Mike,

Congratulations on your new Pass pre-amp. I can imagine that you must of been quite suprised at the extent of the improvement as I have had a similar I had the opportunity to demo a C-J ET3SE preamp in my system and it was something of a revelation. Although my existing C-J PV-15 isn't too shabby at all, I was quite astonished at the scale of the upgrade it provided - the phono stage was a huge improvement, and the sound from my SL-1210 with Benz Micro Ace and Jelco arm was quite incredible in terms of detail, stage width and depth even with it's standard feet, platter and no external PSU. The and the sound of the line stages made me reconsider that I needed a better digital front end (I don't!)

I read a lot of posts saying that a pre-amp is unnecessary, and that digital sources can be plumbed directly into a power amp. When I experimented with this I was disappointed. With the ET-3SE I couldn't imagine needing or wanting more. It is a bid financial commitment, but a top flight pre-amp just gives you more of everything - I can't fully explain it in terms of being less of an impediment or loosing detail but it can be a transformation. I certainly reevaluated where I was getting best bang for the buck.

Good luck with it and enjoy the music!.

Alex

Spot on Alex, my experience as well.




Regards Neil

[MikeMusic]

Mike,

Congratulations on your new Pass pre-amp. I can imagine that you must of been quite suprised at the extent of the improvement as I have had a similar I had the opportunity to demo a C-J ET3SE preamp in my system and it was something of a revelation. Although my existing C-J PV-15 isn't too shabby at all, I was quite astonished at the scale of the upgrade it provided - the phono stage was a huge improvement, and the sound from my SL-1210 with Benz Micro Ace and Jelco arm was quite incredible in terms of detail, stage width and depth even with it's standard feet, platter and no external PSU. The and the sound of the line stages made me reconsider that I needed a better digital front end (I don't!)

I read a lot of posts saying that a pre-amp is unnecessary, and that digital sources can be plumbed directly into a power amp. When I experimented with this I was disappointed. With the ET-3SE I couldn't imagine needing or wanting more. It is a bid financial commitment, but a top flight pre-amp just gives you more of everything - I can't fully explain it in terms of being less of an impediment or loosing detail but it can be a transformation. I certainly reevaluated where I was getting best bang for the buck.

Good luck with it and enjoy the music!.

Alex
'Twas subtle to start with as I couldn't quite work out what 'something' was
Surprising that I've done so much upgrading and not come across this effect before

[MikeMusic]

Just remembered

The bass acquired quite a bit of oomph after being resited

Not sure if it was the resite, warm up, both or summat else.
<thinks> I wonder if it will be better again tonight ?

[MartinT]

The best way I can describe the effect a really good preamp has on a system is that it takes the power amp by the horns and drives the living daylights out of it. No passive setup I've used (and I've tried many, including stepped attenuators) has the structural solidity, depth and dynamics of a preamp'd system.

[AlexM]

The best way I can describe the effect a really good preamp has on a system is that it takes the power amp by the horns and drives the living daylights out of it. No passive setup I've used (and I've tried many, including stepped attenuators) has the structural solidity, depth and dynamics of a preamp'd system.

Martin,

Ive tried and heard passive preamps and have always found them a bit lacking in 'balls' and drive. Maybe it asking too much of the op amps in most (if not all) source components. Maybe it is something to do with the impedance of the volume pot changing the frequency response curve noticeably. I havent heard a switched tranformer type though.

Remote comtrol, effects loops, enough inputs and a phono stage where fitted help to justify the costs setting aside flexibility and sq considerations too.

Cheers,
Alex

[walpurgis]

Yes, I've been using a TVC pre-amp for a while now. It's wonderful, no going back!

[MikeMusic]

Cannot get my head around it seeming louder when it isn't
Kept checking the db meter this morning - nope, just where it should be
All that lovely detail

Great
:)

[Ali Tait]

It's probably not that it's louder, but that the noise floor has dropped, giving you greater dynamic range. Maybe. :)

[MartinT]

Yes - that's my thought too, Ali.

[MikeMusic]

It's probably not that it's louder, but that the noise floor has dropped, giving you greater dynamic range. Maybe. :)
Don't think so
I agree with more dynamic range and more detail
'Course it would be a real job to put all 82 and bits back together again to listen !

[MartinT]

I wouldn't bother now. The only place the 82 should be going is eBay.

[MikeMusic]

I wouldn't bother now. The only place the 82 should be going is eBay.

I have to get a lot of stuff together to sell.
Only ever bought off Ebay - and other places

I lie. Just sold my Achromat

[Ali Tait]

Don't think so
I agree with more dynamic range and more detail
'Course it would be a real job to put all 82 and bits back together again to listen !

Well if you have more range but SPL's are the same, then it only leaves a lower noise floor to give the greater range. Can't go the other way! :)

[MikeMusic]

keep on talking
I may catch on

:)

[Ali Tait]

I wonder what I'm on about myself half the time! :lol:

[Yomanze]

keep on talking
I may catch on

:)

OK so the below images will help visualise it... the * symbols are the noise floor and the rest is the dynamic range:

Old amp:

****NOISE********<-------------------Dynamic Range--------------->

New amp:

***<----------------------More Dynamic Range------------------------>

So at lower volumes things sound more open, alive and, well dynamic! As you turn down amps with a higher noise floor then the music 'disappears' more into the noise floor (this is a physical limitation where noise exists and any audio signal is lost into it), which gives a more congested and less 'open' sound.

[Ali Tait]

...so the equivalent volume can sound louder due to the greater dynamic range available.

[Ali Tait]

Subjectively I mean.

[MikeMusic]

I wonder what I'm on about myself half the time! :lol:

About 6 o clock

:)

[MikeMusic]

OK so the below images will help visualise it... the * symbols are the noise floor and the rest is the dynamic range:

Old amp:

****NOISE********<-------------------Dynamic Range--------------->

New amp:

***<----------------------More Dynamic Range------------------------>

So at lower volumes things sound more open, alive and, well dynamic! As you turn down amps with a higher noise floor then the music 'disappears' more into the noise floor (this is a physical limitation where noise exists and any audio signal is lost into it), which gives a more congested and less 'open' sound.

I wasn't aware of the noise floor before
Do I have the right end of the right stick ?

[Yomanze]

You can't necessarily hear is as noise when it's there, but you notice it when it's gone. As an example when I fitted balanced mains the noise floor dropped like a stone making the sound more 3D and dynamic, opening up more at lower volumes. A bit like 2AM listening at anytime of the day...

[Ali Tait]

Wot he said. It's a thing you don't notice is there until it's gone.

[MikeMusic]

You can't necessarily hear is as noise when it's there, but you notice it when it's gone. As an example when I fitted balanced mains the noise floor dropped like a stone making the sound more 3D and dynamic, opening up more at lower volumes. A bit like 2AM listening at anytime of the day...
I'm new to noise floor then

I wasn't aware of anything other than the holes in the SQ on the Naim - that the Pass filled in

Seems counter logic for it to be called noise floor when you can't hear it too

I'm taking you guys word for it, but still trying to understand it

[hifi_dave]

"noise floor" is the background noise of a product - the hum, hiss, distortion and buzz (if it's Naim). You want all that to be as low as possible so that you can't hear it when playing your music. The difference between that and the loudest you can play without distortion is the dynamic range.

[MikeMusic]

"noise floor" is the background noise of a product - the hum, hiss, distortion and buzz (if it's Naim). You want all that to be as low as possible so that you can't hear it when playing your music. The difference between that and the loudest you can play without distortion is the dynamic range.

Think I have that but I can't hear the noise floor - unless I turn up the volume to what would be deafening and kit wrecking if there was any input
Am I on the right page ?

[MartinT]

Not quite. Noise floor determines the lowest resolvable sounds and is not necessarily just the noise you hear when you turn it up. It depends on the whole chain of equipment.

[MikeMusic]

Not quite. Noise floor determines the lowest resolvable sounds and is not necessarily just the noise you hear when you turn it up. It depends on the whole chain of equipment.

Ok. I'm beginning to understand

If you type more slowly I might get there
:)

[MartinT]

Ok, the reason I said "whole chain of equipment" is that the recording itself (whether it be on LP, CD or file as final media) has noise, which could be a combination of the electronics used and potential tape hiss. When I play a recording the noise floor becomes appreciably higher than just the system hiss at my preset volume, it's combined with recorded noise. Below this level, the quietest sounds are lost so you have your dynamic range set between that noise floor and the loudest achieved sound. Now introduce a more dynamic component, such as the Pass preamp. If you readjust your volume to keep the loudest achieved sound the same, the noise floor has dropped.

[Paul Hynes]

Also in many items of equipment the noise floor increases with signal level due to interactions around the power supply lines and the ground as well as current density in the active electronic devices. You may think you have a quiet system but that can change once the music begins. The signal may mask this noise but the noise will still ride on the signal distorting the waveform.

[MikeMusic]

Ok, the reason I said "whole chain of equipment" is that the recording itself (whether it be on LP, CD or file as final media) has noise, which could be a combination of the electronics used and potential tape hiss. When I play a recording the noise floor becomes appreciably higher than just the system hiss at my preset volume, it's combined with recorded noise. Below this level, the quietest sounds are lost so you have your dynamic range set between that noise floor and the loudest achieved sound. Now introduce a more dynamic component, such as the Pass preamp. If you readjust your volume to keep the loudest achieved sound the same, the noise floor has dropped.
Thanks. I think I have it.
It's noise, it is there but you can't hear it (mostly or completely). It just obscures the signal
Esoteric
Is there another phrase used in place of noise floor that describes better for the challenged amongst us ?
:)

[MikeMusic]

Also in many items of equipment the noise floor increases with signal level due to interactions around the power supply lines and the ground as well as current density in the active electronic devices. You may think you have a quiet system but that can change once the music begins. The signal may mask this noise but the noise will still ride on the signal distorting the waveform.

Thanks Paul. Filling in more detail for me

[MikeMusic]

It's like listening to different versions of the albums and SQ has improved since last week

Happy bunny

Listening to ZZ Top - Mescalero was a surprise with the amount of lower level and bass work going on I have not heard before.
It's a funny recording or mastering with some odd noises and effects

There was one on Ebay that didn't get a bid
If it comes back I recommend at least a look

[Yomanze]

Sweet, the preamp is probably one of the least understood and highly influential components in the audio chain. Glad you are getting the "night and day" difference that you should with such an investment.

[MikeMusic]

Sweet, the preamp is probably one of the least understood and highly influential components in the audio chain. Glad you are getting the "night and day" difference that you should with such an investment.
Wasn't instant, from cold. Mostly because, I think, I couldn't comprehend what was going on.
Better and better as it warmed up - and my faculties started working :)

[hifinutt]

yes I very nearly bought a pass xp 20 a few months ago but didn`t get to demo it
I guess the xp30 must be something
I just love trying out pre amps , have had about 10 in 2 years and what a fabulous difference they make
best was having the magnificent music first baby ref and the arc ref 5se together and wow its great to see a british manufacturer produce a pre amp well up to the arc .

[MikeMusic]

Balanced, XLR cables arrived yesterday from Yannis

Played the system with RCA-RCA cables in place then swapped in the XLRs

Well they are staying for sure !

Surprising difference.
Immediately noticed was how smooth and flowing everything was, then the detail and the space between instruments, crispness of percussion. So much more natural and relaxed

I assume this is a combination of very good cables and that they are balanced.

Lovely sound

[MartinT]

Glad that's worked for you, Mike.

Knowing the sound of balanced connection, I agree with your findings. I also find greater slam and potency in the bass in general.
You have to be careful with equipment choice; many like the Pass are designed fully balanced internally and so the XLR connections are a natural choice. Others have XLR as an afterthought with an internal board that converts single-ended into balanced. Not so good.

Forgot to say, XLR connectors are such a nice positive system, too.

[sq225917]

Seems a shame to waste that lovely balanced Pass front end on that single ended Naim 500, ;-)

[MikeMusic]

Glad that's worked for you, Mike.

Knowing the sound of balanced connection, I agree with your findings. I also find greater slam and potency in the bass in general.
You have to be careful with equipment choice; many like the Pass are designed fully balanced internally and so the XLR connections are a natural choice. Others have XLR as an afterthought with an internal board that converts single-ended into balanced. Not so good.

Forgot to say, XLR connectors are such a nice positive system, too.

Last night was a brief session, catching up with the Tour of Britain after a fairly hard day then the listening and swapping
Bass could well be punchier. Main criteria was to prove it was worthwhile - it is worthwhile !
Leaves you speechless for a while. 'Cos it was damned good before any changes
:)

Mr. Pass does make a very fine Pre Amp
Trust some to jump on the balanced bandwagon with a pretend version, what a pain

I found out last night the snap of the XLR is a good thing. Makes RCA seem rather naff

Back soon to the
'newer favourites being played again (and again) before filing'
stack which I know well through various recent upgrades and a further report

[MikeMusic]

Seems a shame to waste that lovely balanced Pass front end on that single ended Naim 500, ;-)
Watch this space

[Yomanze]

Balanced, XLR cables arrived yesterday from Yannis

Played the system with RCA-RCA cables in place then swapped in the XLRs

Well they are staying for sure !

Surprising difference.
Immediately noticed was how smooth and flowing everything was, then the detail and the space between instruments, crispness of percussion. So much more natural and relaxed

I assume this is a combination of very good cables and that they are balanced.

Lovely sound

Excellent, fully balanced gear IME really shines with XLR, I noticed similar when using my balanced DAC outputs into my Krell KRC-3, which like your Pass is fully balanced inside.

Seems like an awful waste to not put to good use what is an effective doubling up of components (single ended vs balanced).

[MikeMusic]

Excellent, fully balanced gear IME really shines with XLR, I noticed similar when using my balanced DAC outputs into my Krell KRC-3, which like your Pass is fully balanced inside.

Seems like an awful waste to not put to good use what is an effective doubling up of components (single ended vs balanced).
Twas Mr. T's smooth tongue that got me into balanced

[MartinT]

Seems like an awful waste to not put to good use what is an effective doubling up of components (single ended vs balanced).

...not to mention the resultant noise and interference cancellation.

[MartinT]

Twas Mr. T's smooth tongue that got me into balanced

Err, umm, right :eek:

[MikeMusic]

Err, umm, right :eek:
And if it all goes wrong I know where to come

:)