Building the Hagerman Bugle 2 Phonostage

[6L6]

I placed this thread in Analogue Art, but it seems logical to at least mention it here in DIY --

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?27458-Hagerman-Bugle-2

Enjoy!

[Rare Bird]

If you intend using the standard parts you may as well buy the Bugle already built & tested!

[Ali Tait]

I'd be tempted to change those metal film resistors.

[Rare Bird]

Me too i fitted Takman Carbon films into my Ferrograph amp, greet choice..

[Ali Tait]

Aye the Takmans are my preferred choice too.

[DSJR]

Serious question - don't carbon film resistors go off spec after a few years?

[Rare Bird]

Not these.. They are tight at 2% Tolerance

[Ali Tait]

They may, should give 15+ years and probably a lot more as long as they are not stressed. I always over-spec the wattage rating, so they have a easy life.

[Rare Bird]

I agree about over spec the Wattage Ali.. Takman do a nice Metal film resistors too id like to try..

[Barry]

Agree about over-spec'ing the power rating of resistors: I had a Quad 405 amp that one day went into a paroxysm of oscillation due to one of the supply rail resistors failing. It had been running at 90% of its power rating; I replaced it, and it's partner with one of double the rating.

Regarding carbon film resistors, they are noisier than metal film types (flicker or 1/f noise).

[Ali Tait]

I agree about over spec the Wattage Ali.. Takman do a nice Metal film resistors too id like to try..

I bought a stepper from Hi-Fi Collective with metal films, was a little edgy for my ears. That's just one application though, was good otherwise.

[Rare Bird]

Hi Ali
Apart from the original design employing Carbon's i wanted to stick with them cos the last thing i wanted was to radically alter the sound signature. I like to give most things a chance but in the past i found metal films to sound edgy, the only one exception were some mega expensive Vishay Bulk Foil's i once tried..

[Ali Tait]

Aye, it can get silly money very quickly going for the boutique stuff.

[Yomanze]

Serious question - don't carbon film resistors go off spec after a few years?

Hardly unless very stressed, but carbon comp resistors do indeed drift.

[6L6]

Sorry for never checking in to this thread... I figured the discussion would be in the other one... Sorry.

The supplied resistors are 1% metal film 50ppm Xicon. They also have a very nice curve plotting temp/load vs. noise. (and this circuit runs quite cool) In other words really, really nice kit.

Of course, you could certainly try a fancier resistor, and there may be some benefit. I would be more interested in trying different caps.

[Yomanze]

If you intend using the standard parts you may as well buy the Bugle already built & tested!

Just as I was worrying about shopping for stuff for mine. ;)

I have a Bugle 2 to pick up from the Post Office, but reading's got the better of me and I have some parts on the way too. Polystyrene caps for the RIAA, metal can versions of the opamps, Shinkoh input resistors, Elna Silmic electrolytics, but everything else standard. :D

[Yomanze]

Sorry for never checking in to this thread... I figured the discussion would be in the other one... Sorry.

The supplied resistors are 1% metal film 50ppm Xicon. They also have a very nice curve plotting temp/load vs. noise. (and this circuit runs quite cool) In other words really, really nice kit.

Of course, you could certainly try a fancier resistor, and there may be some benefit. I would be more interested in trying different caps.

Ah cool was just trying to find out what the supplied resistors are, seems like these are well worth leaving alone then!

[337alant]

Sorry for never checking in to this thread... I figured the discussion would be in the other one... Sorry.

The supplied resistors are 1% metal film 50ppm Xicon. They also have a very nice curve plotting temp/load vs. noise. (and this circuit runs quite cool) In other words really, really nice kit.

Of course, you could certainly try a fancier resistor, and there may be some benefit. I would be more interested in trying different caps.

If people wish to use a precission resistor then the main benefit would be to change the ones in the signal path and loading with say matched resisters from Welwen RC55Y, Dale RN60, Tackman, vishay etc etc.
Maching helps with channel balence
The power supply resisters are less influential on sound but again a matching supply voltages will give an even channel ballance.
There is a lot of gain in a phono stage (50-65db) so distortion and imbalance is amplified many times.
The threads on the Paradise phono stage have all identified the benefits of matching the transistors and power supply voltages.
Cant go wrong with Polystyrene & polypropylene caps for loading and RIAA signal path use, some of the opamps require tant's so chose quality brand such as AVX, Kemet, Vishay if not allready supplied

All IMO of course

Alan

[Reffc]

The standards parts are well up to spec and buying boutique most likely won't have a big impact on sound...just the wallet. The standard op-amps are exceptionally quiet, the resistors are decent quality metox and shouldn't drift much, the caps are more than adequate but are possibly the only area where some improvements might be made. Whether you'll notice any sonic improvements upgrading those is debatable. Personally, I'd stick with the stock kit. Speaking with Jim Hagerman, I know how proud he is of this (and all) of his designs and he wouldn't supply anything to degrade SQ as it's his reputation. My advice would be to try the standard kit as you'll have no clue as to what improvements (if any) are achievable without this reference. As for my own kit, I plan to keep it standard as it remains a budget benchmark imho against which all comers are judged.

[Yomanze]

I think 1% resistors are enough for the application, but Jim does market an "Elite" version of the Bugle with better parts. The Bugle 2 is probably already into diminishing returns with quality of parts, but as an example using matched polystyrene and polycarbonate caps in the RIAA section, 4x "boutique" resistors for the input and something like Elna Silmic caps is only £30ish outlay and likely to be the bits that make a real difference. As mentioned I will be leaving the rest well alone.

[Reffc]

Actually, for an extra £30, as you say, it's not a huge outlay and it does personalise your kit to the way you want it Neil. let us know the end result :)

[Yomanze]

Well my Silmics that I had in my parts bin won't fit, but am sure the supplies Nichicon VZ are good enough. So just the input resistors, opamps and RIAA caps are going to be changed. Oh and I have some nice mkp1837 bypass caps that I had might as well use.

[337alant]

On a similar project I preferred the LM4562 op amps

Alan

[Yomanze]

On a similar project I preferred the LM4562 op amps

Alan

Yeah am keeping them but have some of the metal can versions.

[Fulci]

So how does the Bugle2 sound? How does it compare to more expensive phono stages like a Trichord Dino?

Thinking of building a phono stage but can't decide between the Hagerman Bugle 2, the VSPS300 or PhonoClone and the Boozhound JFET? Any experience with any of these?

Would it be a noticeable improvement over the Brio-R stage?

[Reffc]

The Bugle 2 compares very well with the standard Dino...in fact I prefer it. Lower noise, more detail and just better all round. I can't comment on the other DIY stages but they've have to be very good indeed to challenge the bugle. The Bugle 2 is a huge improvement over many in-built stages. I prefer it to the phonostage on the original Brio but haven't heard the one in the Brio R. You'd have to try it yourself. You aren't taking much of a risk at the price.

[337alant]

If it was my choice I would build the Buggle2 as it does MM/MC and 40/60DB gain which suits my needs
I havent built either of them but I have been using a clone board remarably similar to the Buggle and it was excellent
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Stereo-MM-Phono-RIAA-Preamp-Module-Kit-OPA2134PA-/400244739310?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item5d30720cee
I would buy the buggle2 and fit precission resistors in the singnal path and polystyrene / polypropylene caps where necessary
In fact I would buy 2 boards and set one up for MM and one for MC
I have a paradise Phono stage now but thats another story

Alan

[Yomanze]

I have nearly finished my Bugle 2. In the end I have matched the RIAA caps and replaced the 100nf caps with polystyrene. I also had some Black Gate Nx caps that I've replaced the sole signal path capacitor with. I also added in Shinkoh input resistors and have installed pins so I can play with (MM) cartridge loading. Everything else is stock. Should be up and listening after work tonight!

PS the stock resistors were already "precision", don't see why you'd need to go past 1% tolerance in this design, so I used them.

[Reffc]

I have nearly finished my Bugle 2. In the end I have matched the RIAA caps and replaced the 100nf caps with polystyrene. I also had some Black Gate Nx caps that I've replaced the sole signal path capacitor with. I also added in Shinkoh input resistors and have installed pins so I can play with (MM) cartridge loading. Everything else is stock. Should be up and listening after work tonight!

PS the stock resistors were already "precision", don't see why you'd need to go past 1% tolerance in this design, so I used them.

Precisely so Neil. In fact, stock-everything is absolutely fine and more than up to the job of providing very high sound quality. Most commercial stages offer nothing more except fancy casework/power supplies and large mark-ups. The Hagerman may have a large mark-up as a box of bits (go tho RS components and price everything up) BUT you are paying for the design and trouble that the designer has gone to. The power supply is simple genius. Crude wall-wart but with a few smoothing caps and inductors to provide a superbly smooth/low noise power supply. You could spend another £50 on a dedicated transformer and box but I wouldn't bother with the outlay. I plan to relocate mine in a smarter casing and to replace stock connectors on the PCB with casing mounted gold plated connectors and an on/off switch, but that's it.

[337alant]

This sounded good on MM but the case was a bit small for MC as I couldn't get rid of a hum
https://www.flickr.com/photos/69508926@N05/8662772119/in/photostream/

Alan

[Reffc]

Looks like you could connect the signal earths to the grounding post. That might cure the hum (and might not). The post would appear to be grounded to the chassis only so you will have an earth potential between connected units and the signal ground. You could connect signal earth to chassis earth via a resistor to lift earth potential and break the earth loop. Ditto, the grounding post (introduce a 10 Ohm resistor between it and the chassis earth). Sortable.

[337alant]

Thanks Paul I did try the things you mention but it was only taking the transformer out of the box that cured it in the end, then I ran it on batteries which was even better.
I don't use that Phono stage now but it was a worthwhile project, think the buggle 2 would be better

Alan

[Reffc]

Of course...the tranny isn't adequately screened from the delicate signal path so that makes perfect sense. Hagerman is cheap as chips and since having it in my system, I've not had the slightest urge for an upgrade.

[337alant]

An earthed Faraday cage arround the circuit board may help, But I havent tried it ?.
Box in a box as they say
Alan

[Yomanze]

That moment when you realise that the Bugle2 was working perfectly, and the Dino wasn't broken from a heavy interconnect, when you realise your cheapie interconnect is broken at one channel... Now I have a Vista Audio Phono 1 mk2 probably the perfect competitor to the Bugle2... Will keep the Vista in for a while & then compare it with my lightly modded Bugle2. :)

[Reffc]

That moment when you realise that the Bugle2 was working perfectly, and the Dino wasn't broken from a heavy interconnect, when you realise your cheapie interconnect is broken at one channel... Now I have a Vista Audio Phono 1 mk2 probably the perfect competitor to the Bugle2... Will keep the Vista in for a while & then compare it with my lightly modded Bugle2. :)

I'd be really interested in your thoughts on that comparison Neil :popcorn: