What 'normal' people think of us...

[Figlet108]

I don't know if any of you ever watch any of Dave L. Jones' blog videos over on EEVblog.
He's a larger than life personality techie from Oz that has a very direct, honest and opinionated style (like most techies!) and is pretty funny with it.

Anyway looking back through his archives I found a 10min blog of him letting loose and ranting about how insane us audiophools are - really hilarious on the one hand, and some cold perspective on how we come across to most other people on the other hand...

Enjoy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ERMu825m4

[Ali Tait]

Haha brilliant!

[Ammonite Audio]

He must be one of the 'regular' objectivists over at PFM.

[Trumpton_Rioter]

I am one of those normal people - I dont box swap, I dont preach about vinyl being better than cd or streaming music I just buy cds and listen to them (maybe its because my hearing is shite so I cant hear the difference if there is one and I cant afford to box swap or have the patience)

:ner:

[Tim]

Haha brilliant!
+ 1

Here's the Blue Jeans letter he refers too;

http://www.audioholics.com/news/blue-jeans-strikes-back

[Figlet108]

I kind of see both sides of it. I really can hear a difference with different cables and other bit-parts on the hifi stage, but for me the difference is pretty small, tending towards negligible and even insignificant in many cases. And it does depend at what level the rest of the gear is at.

On the other hand when I have heard a difference that makes the music more enjoyable for me, even if it's very small (but noticeable), I can't forget about it and it bugs me if I don't have it (a slight form of OCD I guess - like when I touch a metal door knob and I know that metal 'smell' is there on my hand I can't relax until I wash my hands).

His final point at the end of the video also resonated with me. There is definitely a psychological element to this for me. If I have invested my time and emotion to a product and then actually spent money on it, it's like it owns me and I will *want it* to sound better, otherwise I will feel bad and if I feel bad the music sounds worse.
Conversely, if there are 2 products that sound *exactly the same*, but one is beautifully constructed and the other ugly and a bit of a bodge, the beautiful product will make me happier and so the music will sound better.
And it doesn't have to just be about looks, it is driven by whatever drives someone: e.g. because I'm a techie and I *love* the theory and physics behind electrostatics, I knew without having to audition ESLs that I would love them. It turns out they are an awesome speaker anyway regardless of prejudice, so win-win there (and they look good).

I think more people are like that in this hobby than will care to admit, but at least if you know you can't fully trust yourself to make the 'right' choice about a purchase, you will be more likely to make the 'right' choice...

[Figlet108]

This is the original portal page (http://www.eevblog.com/2009/09/07/eevblog-29-audiophile-audiophoolery/) that has all the links related to this, including that Panasonic spec sheet that Dave found so amusing.

Don't know about anyone else, but while he was ranting about the Panasonic thing I was just thinking that I needed to read and learn from that spec sheet to make my own capacitor-related DIY projects sound better - so thanks for that Dave! :D

[Macca]

I recall a long cable thread on here some time ago now. No-one specifically stated it but what I took away was that it would seem the connectors and not the cable were the important factor in 'how it sounds.'

I think we should be careful to distinguish between stupidly expensive cables (say £300 and up) and quality items up to that price - if you look at the cost of buying fancy connectors, time spent putting it all together, overheads, tax, VAT and a worthwhile profit then it is obvious that a cable costing a couple of hundred is not unreasonable. I wouldn't consider anyone an audiophool for spending that sort of money. Get into the crazy price stuff and that is a different matter, where price is justified by 'cost of research and development' or by the use of some technology that is either a secret or complete nonsense. Have these manufacturers discovered some new Physics? Unlikely.

[RMutt]

Ha-ha. I bet MCRU employ naked virgins in the utopia that is Huddersfield.

[Macca]

They have virgins in Huddersfield now?

[walpurgis]

They have virgins in Huddersfield now?

I heard that too. Can it be more than just rumour? :)

Not many round this way. I think I may have reduced the count.

[RMutt]

I heard that too. Can it be more than just rumour? :)

Not many round this way. I think I may have reduced the count.

I bet they fall for all that capacitor and dual concentric smooth talk eh?

[John]

I can see both points sometimes I do have issues with the amount some cables cost but I have also heard differences
Thankfully I have not bought a expensive cable for about 5 years now

[Figlet108]

...I think we should be careful to distinguish between stupidly expensive cables (say £300 and up) and quality items up to that price - if you look at the cost of buying fancy connectors, time spent putting it all together, overheads, tax, VAT and a worthwhile profit then it is obvious that a cable costing a couple of hundred is not unreasonable. I wouldn't consider anyone an audiophool for spending that sort of money. Get into the crazy price stuff and that is a different matter...

Completely agree with you Martin. I have a safety valve mechanism* that would make it hard for me to justify spending above a certain amount for a cable, even if it did sound better. For me the cost benefit equation in those cases would fail.


*some would call that mechanism Wife.

[walpurgis]

I bet they fall for all that capacitor and dual concentric smooth talk eh?

No, it's my animal magnetism. I grunt a lot, sniff at things and have that beast type smell about me. Never fails.

[Sovereign]

Yes very god, I love the way the guys eyes bug out more and more. I think we can all see both sides of the argument, and there is an element of truth in a lot of what he says.
I used to spend what I saw as mega money on Kimber Kables which really were good, but what excites me more then how good they were, is now I am able to use cables that sound just as good for less money thanks to advice and pointers found on forums.

[Yomanze]

Ha ha, playing hard ball, speaking about 'audiophools' and launches straight in with the most contentious of topics - cables! There are a lot of audiophiles that think cables can't possibly make a difference, and also people who meet in the middle somewhere and say that they make a slight difference. There are people who 'pay for the price' and couldn't possibly live with owning an item that didn't meet their expectation of what they wanted to spend in the first place. There are also people who think that cables make a "big" difference.

Objectivists are never going to have the mindset that cables make a difference (remember about expectation bias?), so when they change them, they won't hear a difference. No point blind testing these people as they'll just flatly report no difference. People who are stanch cable believer report 'huge' changes from swapping out cables or connectors.

One thing is true though: if cables made such a 'big' difference (to me they make a significantly enough difference to warrant investing in), then there'd be no real argument, as we wouldn't be engaged in flame wars about them all the time! It isn't like forums are going crazy because someone suggested that 2 Way speakers can sound different.

[bobbasrah]

Biggest problem is in defining normal.
My other self agrees.

[Gordon Steadman]

Biggest problem is in defining normal.
My other self agrees.

Yeah, there's a meeting about schizophrenia at the town hall tonight, I've half a mind to go.

(Did you know that two in every one person is schizophrenic?)

[JJack]

He doesn't blink and he ends every sentence with a question?

So, not "normal" in my book. Just annoying

[losenotaminute]

That's a good video, sums up the problems that over-enthusiastic marketing causes, but I have to admit some of those products do sound tempting!

I personally would be prepared to pay modestly more for a well made product. You can tell the quality of cables by looking at how they are put together; clearly, expensive materials and high quality manufacturing will cost more. Paying anything more than two to three hundred quid for speaker cables is not the way I would choose to spend my money. For an interconnect I would set my limit at £50. There are plenty of fantastic sounding products in that price bracket.

I personally do not believe that there could be any significant difference between a relatively cheap and a very expensive digital cable, apart from the looks of course. I don't have an electrical engineering background, but I have friends who do and they assure me that so long as the information gets from one end to the other without data loss, that is the job done 100%.

But I would also caution against lecturing others on how they choose to spend their money. The Government hasn't yet outlawed buying expensive cables and I hope they never do. It's really nobody else's business but mine how I spend my wages.

What does tick me off slightly are manufacturers / dealers who ask high prices for a product but are not willing (or maybe able) to tell you exactly why the product is better than others. I want to be able to use my common sense and a little research before committing to a purchase, and when the seller relies on "faith" to part me from my money, I will always treat them with the utmost suspicion.

Lawrence

[Mike A]

If you need a bit of ammunition to use against EEs or "normal" people try this :-

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274851

[Barry]

If you need a bit of ammunition to use against EEs or "normal" people try this :-

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274851

All the results found and reported in the above are explicable, and are no evidence of the need to buy exotic speaker cables.

[Mike A]

All the results found and reported in the above are explicable, and are no evidence of the need to buy exotic speaker cables.

Very true, but they do show that there are good reasons why cables can sound different contrary to the claims of most skeptics, EEs and "normal" people.

As for buying exotic cables, you need no other reason then "I want to" ;)

[bobbasrah]

And that is where "normal" comes into play....
To the Audio Enthusiast, by installing a cable which creates a different sound, the conclusion is that the cables sound different.
To Mr/Mrs Normal, the cable cannot "sound" as it has no means to do so, but can only be having an affect on the devices between which it connects.
We are victims of our and the marketeers use of illogical language.

[Sovereign]

I know this is old and many of us have heard this, but to me it's a classic and well worth watching again.
The best part is within the first few minutes the English guy says, "when I used to be a normal person...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1aUws0Lrs

[MikeMusic]

This guy is not normal - y'know ?

[Marco]

One thing is true though: if cables made such a 'big' difference (to me they make a significantly enough difference to warrant investing in), then there'd be no real argument, as we wouldn't be engaged in flame wars about them all the time! It isn't like forums are going crazy because someone suggested that 2 Way speakers can sound different.

That's an excellent point, Neil, and one which certainly has merit. However, define "big"...? What's 'big' to you, may be small or insignificant for someone else (and no, I'm not talking about *THAT*, har, har :eyebrows:). It's an entirely subjective matter.

The other thing to consider is the nature of the sonic improvement gained by upgrading cables, or anything else in a hi-fi system, and most importantly, how the listener perceives said improvement and how important that is to him or her, in terms of their enjoyment of listening to their favourite music. Upgrading speakers will always cause a 'bigger' change in the sound of a system than that effected by any cable, but only in the most 'obvious' hi-fi sense (deeper bass, crisper treble, wider soundstage, etc, etc).

However, judiciously upgrading cables, in an already well-sorted system (that last part is important), can bring about subtle improvements in other areas (in terms of revealing nuances and details in recordings that increase the 'emotional connection' of the listener in the music he or she playing), which is difficult to achieve by other means. Therefore, to said listener, the improvements effected by a cable upgrade can sometimes be more fundamental/important and thus, to him or her, 'bigger' than the rather obvious (and expected) sonic improvements brought about by something like a speaker upgrade.

That's half the problem... Those who define a 'big' difference/improvement in audio as being that achieved through a component or system simply excelling more in what I would call 'prosaic hi-fi considerations', will never GET what the right cables (and these needn't be hugely expensive) can do for the MUSICAL, as well as sonic performance of a hi-fi system. The two are very different entities.

Quite simply, in order to truly 'get' what the right cables can do for a hi-fi system (note that I said 'right', rather than 'best', as there is no 'best'), one needs to dig deeper and listen beyond the 'immediately obvious'.

Marco.

[Marco]

Incidentally, regarding the video. In parts it was funny, mainly due to the riduculous antics and facial expressions of the guy who made it.

However, he did himself a disservice, and made the classic error of referring to others of a different mindset as "these idiots". As soon as things descend to a personal level like that, as far as I'm concerned, the perpetrator has lost his or argument, and so I just switch off - otherwise I just feel like retaliating in a similarly insulting fashion.

Furthermore, as usual, with people of his rather 'rigid' mindset, he is guilty of rather over-simplistic 'black or white' thinking. Therefore, in terms of providing a giggle, the video worked, but for anything else more serious, is was an epic fail :)

Marco.

[Reffc]

That's an excellent point, Neil, and one which certainly has merit. However, define "big"...? What's 'big' to you, may be small or insignificant for someone else (and no, I'm not talking about *THAT*, har, har :eyebrows:). It's an entirely subjective matter.

The other thing to consider is the nature of the sonic improvement gained by upgrading cables, or anything else in a hi-fi system, and most importantly, how the listener perceives said improvement and how important that is to him or her, in terms of their enjoyment of listening to their favourite music. Upgrading speakers will always cause a 'bigger' change in the sound of a system than that effected by any cable, but only in the most 'obvious' hi-fi sense (deeper bass, crisper treble, wider soundstage, etc, etc).

However, judiciously upgrading cables, in an already well-sorted system (that last part is important), can bring about subtle improvements in other areas (in terms of revealing nuances and details in recordings that increase the 'emotional connection' of the listener in the music he or she playing), which is difficult to achieve by other means. Therefore, to said listener, the improvements effected by a cable upgrade can sometimes be more fundamental/important and thus, to him or her, 'bigger' than the rather obvious (and expected) sonic improvements brought about by something like a speaker upgrade.

That's half the problem... Those who define a 'big' difference/improvement in audio as being that achieved through a component or system simply excelling more in what I would call 'prosaic hi-fi considerations', will never GET what the right cables (and these needn't be hugely expensive) can do for the MUSICAL, as well as sonic performance of a hi-fi system. The two are very different entities.

Quite simply, in order to truly 'get' what the right cables can do for a hi-fi system (note that I said 'right', rather than 'best', as there is no 'best'), one needs to dig deeper and listen beyond the 'immediately obvious'.

Marco.

:clapclapclap:

Absolutely Marco. Many (most) sceptics tend to forget that person "A" may be upgrading into an entirely different system than person "B" where it's the little details that matter, ones that person "B" may not appreciate in their own system for a multitude of reasons. I may be an engineer, and therefore objective when it comes to design, but I'm also open minded enough to accept that these differences are important to hifi/music enthusiasts. Who is anyone else to call someone an idiot for upgrading cables? Worth is whatever it is to the end user and many happen to buy into quality as much as for any other reason. All said and done, only the individual knows what works or doesn't in their own systems, and that includes where improvements can be heard so the final arbitor of whether to upgrade lies purely with the individual. There are some sceptics who are comically black and white for no other reason than they take colour from others but haven't a clue about the theories involved themselves. It's as much a belief system in their case as it appears to be for believers from their own perspective which is often overlooked.

[Barry]

And that is where "normal" comes into play....
To the Audio Enthusiast, by installing a cable which creates a different sound, the conclusion is that the cables sound different.
To Mr/Mrs Normal, the cable cannot "sound" as it has no means to do so, but can only be having an affect on the devices between which it connects.
We are victims of our and the marketeers use of illogical language.

That is exactly my position on the matter.

[Marco]

Me too, plus also what Paul and I have just agreed on! :)

I guess that this is an appropriate time to reiterate the following undisputable fact: There is no such thing as a 'good' cable; only ones which are 'less bad'...

Thing is, the cables which are 'less bad' can, in the right circumstances, have a profound and long-lasting effect on our enjoyment of the music the system that they're connected to reproduces! ;)

Marco.

[realysm42]

People often think I'm a bit mad with my "obsession" but always love the sound it makes, so they kinda get it.

I love seeing people enjoy music.

[Yomanze]

I love how a flameworthy video actually turns into some great discussion rather than simply slagging the guy off (even if he does deserve it). And Martin, spot on, people scoff at spending loads on HiFi, but no music lover can deny how much more immersive and involving a decent system is.

[MikeMusic]

'Course the 'acceptable' thing is to spend many £1000s on a new car, watch it depreciate over 2-3 years then go and do it again !

And what do 'good sound systems' cost for a motor, especially when added on to a new car. I assume a large amount

Think my Saab was around £30,000 new. I paid £1700 for it, I'm guessing around 6 years old -if only hifi was like that !

[StanleyB]

Think my Saab was around £30,000 new. I paid £1700 for it, I'm guessing around 6 years old -if only hifi was like that !
Mine was £32K, but I too paid far less. Mind you I have spent more than £20K on it since then and have no intention of parting with it just yet.

[MikeMusic]

Mine was £32K, but I too paid far less. Mind you I have spent more than £20K on it since then and have no intention of parting with it just yet.
And a new car is normal for so many people. Good PR from the car makers