More help needed

[Andrei]

As the legitimate owner of a SL 1210 ( that I have not played yet ) I am wondering about the head-shell. I can say that the cartridge I will be using is a Denon DL110. Should I stick with the stock techie head-shell or go for something exotic? My first inclination is to go Oyaide because I have had bafflelingly (is that a word?) good experiences with their cables. But the reality is that I know as much about head-shells as the average AOS member knows about the Venus Variation of 15th century Indian rope dancing. Marco, as our glorious leader, high priest of technics turntables, former samurai, I call upon you you to give guidance to one of your humble subjects in need.

[synsei]

Could always try one of these (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sumiko-HS-12-Universal-Replacement-Headshell/dp/B007LKJ7GU) Andrei, the Sumiko is highly thought of on AoS and it won't break the bank ;)

[Idlewithnodrive]

Something like a Sumiko would be perfect Andrei, a big improvement on the stock one for not silly money.

Just removing the plastic washer from the standard also gives a noticeable performance gain too :)

EDIT: Oops, Dave beat me to it.

[Ali Tait]

Would one of those be worth trying on a Jelco 250 chaps?

[vinylspinner]

Hi Ali,

I can send you one to try if you wish.


Nigel

[Oldpinkman]

I'd change the arm. No headshell will change the fact you have a joint there, nor do anything about the quality of bearings (not bad on the techie, but) the wiring of the arm (not the first worry) or the big ones - arm resonances and counterweight resonances. I am unable to confirm the advice I received that glam headshells make pretty little difference since, ham-fisted git that I am I tore a cartridge tag off the one I was lent to prove the point, but I trust the bloke what told me. He has a maddening habit of being right. :)

[Ammonite Audio]

Would one of those be worth trying on a Jelco 250 chaps?

If it's the S-Shaped Jelco SA-250, rather than the SA-250ST which has a fixed headshell, then the original Jelco headshell will be pretty much identical to the Sumiko (excepting how the finger lift is attached). I believe I'm correct in thinking that they are both made by the same company (most probably Jelco). You can do much better than either of these, at a price of course.

[Ali Tait]

Cheers Hugo, good to know. Yes, mine is the S shape. Finally decided to get the 401 down from the top of the wardrobe, where it has resided for the last couple of years. I've bought the arm, have a 103r coming, bought a Threshold Forte Model Two pre on here, a Nelson Pass design which is meant to have a very good phono stage in it. Only thing I need now is a nice slate plinth.

[Ali Tait]

Hi Ali,

I can send you one to try if you wish.


Nigel

Hi Nigel,

Many thanks for the offer, but it'll be a while yet before I have the TT up and running.

[Ali Tait]

I know the arm can be bettered, but it'll be fine to get me up and running.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

[Ammonite Audio]

I know the arm can be bettered, but it'll be fine to get me up and running.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

Sorry for any misunderstanding - I meant that the Jelco/Sumiko headshells can be bettered, eg with an Oyaide.

[Ali Tait]

Aye,no bother Hugo, cheers, I'll post for more advice once I have the thing up and running.

[MCRU]

Aye,no bother Hugo, cheers, I'll post for more advice once I have the thing up and running.

Myself and Nick had a room 2 years ago at Scalford, we had my techie playing, we used the Jelco 750, Oyaide headshell and a Denon 103,
more than one person said it should not sound as good as it did! The sumiko is ok but if you can afford it go for the oyaide.

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/TECH/IMG_8824_zps757aed37.jpg

[Ali Tait]

Ok cheers mate.

[Andrei]

Thanks guys
I'm not up with the theory here but I thought if the headshell was made from a non resonant material that would help, and also that if the headshell was a different material from the arm that would also help. Not sure where I got this last idea from, but it was an article on tonearms, or a particular tonearm, that claimed the change in material some halfway up the tonearm did something beneficial.


I'd change the arm. No headshell will change the fact you have a joint there, nor do anything about the quality of bearings (not bad on the techie, but) the wiring of the arm (not the first worry) or the big ones - arm resonances and counterweight resonances.

Richard: This is a staged plan. Stage one is the feet, mat, tonearmwiring, cartridge, and headshell. Stage two will be the power supply, stage three will be the tonearm. The reason the tonearm is last is that I am not sure what route to take (also the um delicate matter of fiscal responsibility). I have ordered the KAB wire kit - pretty cheap. That has some cotton wool thingies to put in the tonearm. Also I am going to make some sorbothane o-rings. I think I can make them so they do not look totally hideous, and if they are judiciously placed that should be a good thing ... right? Later I can think about what to do with the tonearm. Maybe a Jelco 750D. If I ditch my Marantz I can use it's Clearaudio Satisfy Arm. You can give that arm a serious finger-flick with volume above normal listening levels and no sound comes out of the speakers. I have an open mind and may even leave in the Tecchie arm or look to something else. So as I say, not sure what route to take.

On to more important matters: last night the All Blacks gave the Wallabies yet another masterclass, a good spanking.

[Oldpinkman]

Hi Andre

Important matters first - my stepson has ambitions for a gap year before Uni coaching / playing rugby in the land of the all-blacks. There are packaged opportunities which is what has given him the idea, but I think his main plan is just to be there and do some rugby. Any pointers or guidance would be much appreciated.

Arms - fair enough, but as I noted elsewhere, in the main, money spent on rewires and headshells is down the loo once you change the arm. Whereas I speculate on many things I HAVE tried a techie with another arm (yes, the F5 ok - but I would speculate confidently the same would apply to say a mission 774) and there are big differences. Resonance control is part of the issue, but so is rigidity - and damping to control resonance is deceptive (had this discussion with Geoff / Walpurgis) but the sorbothane rings sound an interesting idea (they will affect mass, and effective mass too, which will affect the main arm/cartridge resonance). By way of brief example, I recall picking up a Rega arm tube Arthur had ripped out to make one of his FX arms before he designed his own bearings, and commenting it was pretty dead. He pointed out I was damping it with my fingers, hooked it through a bit of wire, tapped it and it rings like a bell (about the G or B string on a guitar). You may have read my musings on the merits of the F5 and FX2 (or 3 or 4 - I've lost the plot with AK's rapidly changing model numbers) and wanting a best of both worlds. Whilst there are some counterweight issues, and other things related to balance, the key is a REALLY rigid arm-tube, and what I have referred to cryptically as harry potter gossamer as the material he proposes. Bunging on sorbothane rings does nothing there. And for me (very sensitive to tracking distortion - real sets my teeth like fingernails down a blackboard) I suspect bias systems are essential, and why for all these years I preferred the Mission 774 over other worthies using springs. And again, as I noted elsewhere, if you pick up a 2nd hand arm and don't like it, you can sell it on for small loss. Tinkerings may be worthwile, but they are money into vapour - you rarely get it back, whether HiFi, cars, model helis - whatever. Must dash - nagging wife reminding we are supposed to be on holiday :)

[Andrei]

Richard
Sigh, I am sure you are right. I have no doubt a Jelco 750D would be better than the stock Techie arm (and I have not had the benefit of your musings ...). But I like the idea that VTA is easily adjustable on the stock arm, so I can be as promiscuous as I like with various cartridges. I will see how I get on with my damping project.

And as mentioned I can't quite - at the present point in time - persuade the Minister of Inland Revenue that my Hi-Fi needs are more important than funding his salary, our failed health system, incompetent judges, and the topping up of our Earthquake fund that successive governments have rifled.

Still, looking down the track what arm would you recommend for a 1210?

Oh, and by the way, please don't talk to me about rigidity - I hear enough complaints already :->

[Clive197]

Andrei, don't get too bogged down with easily adjustable VTA. Unless your planning to keep doing cartridge changes, your only going to change VTA very occasionally.
After a lot of research I went for a Origin Live Silver arm for the following reasons. VTA is relatively easy, it has very little of the Rega donor arm left (arm lift and part of the main arm tube) as from experience I don't have high regard for the cheaper Rega arms and lastly it sounds superb, easily beating more expensive arms.
An interesting point which some people on this forum may see as a negative but what do they know, is that a number of top end clubs here in the UK and in New York use Origin Live arms on SL1210's because of build and reliability.

[walpurgis]

Andrei, don't get too bogged down with easily adjustable VTA. Unless your planning to keep doing cartridge changes, your only going to change VTA very occasionally.

Yes, that's spot on!

[Oldpinkman]

Andrei - you'd expect me to say F5. I have tried it on a technics. But of course, that would be new. Not sure what there is 2nd hand in NZ but mission 774 would be a favourite before the F5 came along (talking £400-£600 arms here). As the others said forget the VTA issue. (Ironically the techie I borrowed had jammed - fortunately it was near or near enough). VTA on a mission 774 or an F5 (and AK's other planned arms) is just loosen an allen screw and slide up or down. Ditto other Rega bastards.

Sounds like a Viagra 999 may be the arm of choice and who cares what the music sounds like. :) Also the much maligned RB300 is not bad sounding, but has no VTA adjustment. Whilst there are tracking error benefits in long arms (we hadn't even started to discuss size) you can't fit a 12" (easily) to a techie. I wonder whether the reason that straight arms appear to be better than S arms is overall tube length compromising rigidity. As for the Jelco's, I don't know them at first hand, just their heritage and reputation, and I am sure they would be well made excellent value arms of the Ittok variety.

Just to mention, cos they are what I plan to choose, F5 and Fx3 again, other used favourites would be SME5 and Helius Orion, but the chances of you finding one of the latter are pretty remote.

If you can get the chance to try an arm - so much better than buying blind. I'll post again somewhere about the Funks when I get back to play with them, but the big point was any 2nd hand items which are readily available will enable you to trial them and not lose too much, whereas tinkering with the stock arm, is not as easily recoverable, and fundamentally limited. The amount of detail there on the vinyl that is lost by the techie arm, compared with an arm like the FX3 is huge, and something like a used 774 will catch a lot of it.

But then the upgrade point applies to the Techie itself as I have mentioned elsewhere, and I am already keeping my head down to avoid an egg pelting for suggesting so. Nonetheless, it remains apparant that the "pimped" Techies are nothing of the sort. They are a completely new custom build deck costing in excess of £2000 which fit a technics motor, and maybe retain the plinth. But feet, power supply, bearing, platter, mat are all custom. And whilst refining all of those aspects surely makes an improvement (again - I am speculating - mat and platter are the only ones I have tried) it may be those improvements are small refinements compared with say a better phono stage or arm. But once you are hooked on that path, it is not so easy to change course in the way it is to buy a rega planar 3, and then sell it on to buy a Mitchell Gyro deck, not like it and buy a Funk Saphire (a deck I have never heard just for the record). The examples were to illustrate how you can trade "standard" items used with minimal losses, whereas customisation is a blind alley. You have to be real sure it's right first. But I suspect most technics Moonies on this site, didn't listen to the hot-rod they aspire to build first, they bought a stock TT on mass recommendation and then at each £500 upgrade were duly pleased with an improvement, without any concept of whether anything else might have done better for less. I'm gonna go now before I get mobbed for heresy:sofa:

[Macca]

Unless funds are unlimited I'd suggest buying the best cartridge you can rather than worry about the arm. The better headshell is a must, though.

[Clive197]

Viagra 999........... What! This is a HiFi forum. You definitely need a holiday!

[Ali Tait]

So would the consensus be to go for the best cart you can first before upgrading the arm?

[walpurgis]

There's no 'right' answer to that question. The arm and cartridge should match as well as possible. It all depends on the timetable for upgrades, if the arm is not due for immediate replacement buy the best cartridge the will work in it (finances allowing) and vice versa.

[Clive197]

So would the consensus be to go for the best cart you can first before upgrading the arm?

That's a affirmative good buddy

[Andrei]

So would the consensus be to go for the best cart you can first before upgrading the arm?

Interesting! Origin Live at http://neworiginlive.com/tonearms-overview.html suggest the opposite. It's pretty academic as I already have the cartridge (DL 110) and I'll cross that tonearm bridge much later.

In the meantime I'm afraid I have to ask another noob question. How does one go about transporting these beasties? I purchased the 1210 in Auckland and my brother who lives there checked it was functioning and picked it up. I live 400 km south of Auckland (and yes the earth does extend that far). Has anyone had experience of having couriered? There is a thing called a 'flight case' and I suppose I could purchase one, they don't cost much 2nd hand.

As an aside I suffered a significant eyebrow-raising experience. I was browsing the local species of E-bay called TradeMe. For sale in the DJ section (as an aside to an aside this is where all technics gear gets sold, not under hi-fi, egad) are these things called coffins. Yep, coffins. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. It turns out you plonk your two! turntables in these things together with your mixer. I suppose after that you go and bury them. What a total waste of money.

[Clive197]

Interesting! Origin Live at http://neworiginlive.com/tonearms-overview.html suggest the opposite. It's pretty academic as I already have the cartridge (DL 110) and I'll cross that tonearm bridge much later.
.

They would, they only make arms! You have a reasonable arm that only needs a little tickle (headshell and rewire)

[Andrei]

Unless funds are unlimited I'd suggest buying the best cartridge you can rather than worry about the arm. The better headshell is a must, though.

So more a finger than a whole arm?

[Macca]

So more a finger than a whole arm?

More of a replacement hand really. Like Luke Sywalker. Or his old man for that matter. One point if you go for the Sumiko, you will need the little additional screw on counter weight to balance the arm (unless the cart is very heavy) so make sure you have got that. Some used decks come without it.

[6L6]

...Um, have you actually gotten your turntable yet? I would suggest that the first thing you do is receive it, and do the best setup you can possibly do with the stock table. Then listen to it for a while.

After that, go crazy and do everything you like, but at least you will know where you are coming from. Not all mods sound better. So it's very important to know what you have to begin with.

[Andrei]

...Um, have you actually gotten your turntable yet?
The beast has been paid for but is in Auckland (see further up the thread) and I am far away - so trying to work out how to get it to where I live, as it does not come with the original boxing. Do these things transport well?

[Macca]

The beast has been paid for but is in Auckland (see further up the thread) and I am far away - so trying to work out how to get it to where I live, as it does not come with the original boxing. Do these things transport well?

You need ideally to double box but if that is not possible then make sure the box is packed very tightly inside with bubble wrap, rolled up newspaper or the like is no good. Loads of parcel tape, mummify it.

Remove the platter from the TT and wrap that seperately. Tie down the arm in addition to the usual lock. Put the lid on and tape it down heavily. Then pack with the seperatly wrapped platter on top of the lid.

AS long as all that is done it should transport no problem.