MM=valve MC=SS? What's your view?

[The Outcast]

Been having second thoughts lately about my ortofon Kontrapunkt b into the low output MC input of my Minimax phono stage. Whilst it is absolutely brilliant with MM it seems lacking somewhat and a bit noisy too when i turn the volume up. I am concidering a Solid state phono stage for my MC and keeping the Minimax for my 2M blue.

Anyone else had similar experience? I am starting to think that valves are good for MM's and solid states are better for MC's. Your views please.:rolleyes:
H

[Ammonite Audio]

My Kontrapunkt B only really came to life when I used a step up transformer (SUT), on Martin T's recommendation. I know that there is technical disagreement about whether a SUT is better than an active MC amplification stage, but I know which I prefer. That said, Alex Nikitin's ANT Audio active Phono amp designs look interesting and he did once challenge me to try one out, so maybe I should.

[Ali Tait]

The best stages I have heard all use valves. This is the best I've heard at, or anywhere near the price - http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/phono-stages/331-the-mains-cables-r-us-phono-amplifier.html#

Not cheap, but worth it IMHO. I'm in the process of resurrecting my 401, and I'll eventually be getting one of these when funds allow.

[Firebottle]

Interesting phono amp Ali :hmm:

It actually uses a JFET transistor at the input so it's a hybrid in reality.
The rest of the design objective is a mirror image of the way I have designed my Firebottle phono amp. I have wondered about including a FET at the front to accommodate MC input, maybe I should try it.

I don't have a MC cartridge so I would need a kind soul to try it out for me ;)

:cool:Alan

[The Outcast]

I'm ya man Alan.
Interesting phono amp Ali :hmm:

It actually uses a JFET transistor at the input so it's a hybrid in reality.
The rest of the design objective is a mirror image of the way I have designed my Firebottle phono amp. I have wondered about including a FET at the front to accommodate MC input, maybe I should try it.

I don't have a MC cartridge so I would need a kind soul to try it out for me ;)

:cool:Alan

[Beobloke]

MM=valve MC=SS? What's your view?


My view is that the quality of a phono stage is determined by whether it is valve or solid state in the same way as the quality of a turntable is defined by whether it's belt, direct or idler drive, personally...

[walpurgis]

My view is that the quality of a phono stage is determined by whether it is valve or solid state in the same way as the quality of a turntable is defined by whether it's belt, direct or idler drive, personally...

Why would the quality be determined by the choice between SS or tube. Surely a good design, is a good design regardless.

I went from using an EAR 834P valve jobbie to a Graham Slee ERA Gold V solid state unit with improvements in every area. And yes, I did extensive comparisons with various cartridges and SUTs with my MCs before deciding which to keep. The Slee won hands down.

[Ali Tait]

I think that's what he meant Geoff.

[Ali Tait]

Interesting phono amp Ali :hmm:

It actually uses a JFET transistor at the input so it's a hybrid in reality.
The rest of the design objective is a mirror image of the way I have designed my Firebottle phono amp. I have wondered about including a FET at the front to accommodate MC input, maybe I should try it.

I don't have a MC cartridge so I would need a kind soul to try it out for me ;)

:cool:Alan

Yep, a hybrid, and a great sounding bit of kit IMHO.

[walpurgis]

I think that's what he meant Geoff.

Ah, it was 'character' was it? I misunderstood Adam's turn of phrase.

That means little in some cases. You would not tell the dearer Slees apart from good valve units. All the atmosphere, smoothness and transparency are there, possibly with tighter bass control and extension though.

[Ali Tait]

I've not heard that many commercial ones TBH, though I did once hear Nick's LCR after listening to an EAR. No contest there, EAR was blown out of the water.

[Beobloke]

Ah, it was 'character' was it? I misunderstood Adam's turn of phrase.
.

Yes, sorry Geoff, I was implying that, like a you said, a good design is a good design, regardless of its componentry. In the same way, a good turntable is a good turntable, regardless of whether it uses a direct motor, a tyre or a rubber band!

[julesd68]

a good design is a good design, regardless of its componentry.

Couldn't agree more - I heard Geoff's Graham Slee up against my old valve Puresound P10 and the differences were very nuanced indeed ...

My Conrad-Johnson is an all valve design that is in a different league to my old P10, but then it should be as the RRP was about three times as much ...

[6L6]

I am starting to think that valves are good for MM's and solid states are better for MC's.

I think what you are experiencing is that it's much easier to make a quiet transistor phonostage than it is to make a quiet valve phonostage, and the noise issues are overriding everything else.

Noise becomes the biggest issue with MC cartridges, as lots of detail can get swamped in what seem like a quiet preamp, as the signal you are playing with is so incredible small.

I would guess that if you used a transformer on your MC, you would find that the phonostages would be able to stand upon their own merits.

[Clive]

I suspect it's a quite complex issue. I've tried a number of cartridges on my two decks; using the correct phono stage for the cartridge is as important as the cartridge itself. Tweaking the loading on the phono stage is important too.

On one level there's a simple matching in terms of freq response, ie a bright cartridge may not be a good match for an incisive phono stage.

For MM there's the total capacitance the cartridge sees but also it can be beneficial to varying resistive loading between 30k and 100k, don't take 47k as gospel.

Whether SUTs into valves or solidstate stages are best for MCs will never be resolved and probably it shouldn't be.

I find my London Reference (MM level but it's not an MM) is best into my valve LCR stage.

My AT150 (MM) is fine into my valve or SS stages

My Garrott P77/NWA is best into the SS stages.

My Transfiguration Spirit is best into SS. SUT + valve flows well but isn't spicy enough for the Spirit.

Probably all this is down to simply matching up synergistic sounding stages to cartridges though maybe SUTs suit/load some MCs better than others, there could be something to do with inductance. Barry or NRG would be good people for views on this.