View Full Version : Regenerator, Balanced Mains Supply -if together what order?
Sovereign
22-08-2013, 21:24
After maybe four months of running both a BPS and an Power Inspired AG1500 regenerator together I finally had an evening spare to chop and change things around, first evening I had free all this time.
Steve, Electricbeach, came round and we had a we session, to be honest we did far more talking then we did listening and comparing, so my OP will be very brief but the start of a long term project as I took delivery of a 3kva BPS transformer to build my own BPS unit,; and Steve took away my 1500va unit to put in his system, and his thoughts would be very welcome.
All I am able to say at this stage is limited. As I said I have been running the BPS and regen for quite a few months now and my hifi was sounding full, meaty, detailed and instruments seemed to hang in the air in front of you at times.
The order of units was 1500va BPS- Regen- Hifi. After playing some tunes that Steve and I were both familiar with we took the regen out of the system and leaving the BPS in place. My hifi still sounded superb, but I felt it was a little more raw and less controlled, this may not be a step backwards at all but rather a slightly different sound I needed to become accustomed to......maybe not. We then swapped things around again and just left the Regen in the system taking the BPS out. Again my hifi sounded great but I feel it lost a bit of its tone and flesh and a bit of the bottom end. The music was still hung it free space but my focus seemed to be more on the treble and mid range.
So what am I saying??? This process was all fairly quick, I normally like to listen to a component for a good few weeks before I add add another, but to briefly summarise I liked the sound of the BPS and the Regen together. Both the BPS and the Regen have their different qualities but together seemed to work better than apart. Now Steve has both a Power Inspired 1500 Regen and BPS so his thoughts would be be helpful here- More to follow.
Thanks for that James,
watching this thread with interest...
Figlet108
22-08-2013, 22:09
So James, what's your plan for a case for your build. Are you going to use one of the Airlink ones?
I was planning to buy one of their ready-made 5kva baluns, but since you're building one I'm going to have to build my own too - can't be outdone by the likes of you :)
Sovereign
22-08-2013, 22:13
The likes of me! At least I don'r wear a dodgy hat and a dicky bow!
Not sure regarding a case, defo not wanting to use an Airlink one as they are dog ugly, what would you suggest?
Figlet108
22-08-2013, 22:18
Shiny black acrylic - what else!
Everyone knows the material and colour of a case makes a massive difference to how a transformer sounds...
brian2957
22-08-2013, 22:21
Are you going to buy an Airlink and strip out the parts or source your own parts guys ?
Sovereign
22-08-2013, 22:27
Are you going to buy an Airlink and strip out the parts or source your own parts guys ?
No I have managed to buy a BPS transformer in isolation
Sovereign
22-08-2013, 22:30
Shiny black acrylic - what else!
Everyone knows the material and colour of a case makes a massive difference to how a transformer sounds...
One of the most "despirate, dig myself out of a shit smelling hole" I have read.
Figlet108
22-08-2013, 22:39
...Not sure regarding a case, defo not wanting to use an Airlink one as they are dog ugly, what would you suggest?
How about getting one of your joiners to knock you up a nice case out of wood and staining or painting it?
Sovereign
22-08-2013, 22:43
That's my first choice, with a clear Perspex lid, most people like to see what's inside the box.
Figlet108
22-08-2013, 22:47
Are you going to buy an Airlink and strip out the parts or source your own parts guys ?
To be honest Brian, aside from the jokes and bravado I will probably just buy a ready-made airlink one as I could do with the IP23 rated case as it will live out in the ginnel.
That and the fact that I've already got so many DIY projects on the go there isn't room for another right now...
But if you did make your own I'm pretty sure you could make it for half the cost of the Airlink ones.
Figlet108
22-08-2013, 22:54
The other advantage of making your own is you could go for a REALLY BIG transformer like this 87KG 15000VA monster! (http://www.airlinktransformers.com/industrial_transformers/enclosed_isolating_industrial_transformers/WN150240/)
brian2957
23-08-2013, 07:15
I'll be keeping my eye on this thread . The BPS is one of the best , most cost - effective , upgrades to a system I've ever heard . Please keep us posted chaps .
brian2957
23-08-2013, 07:23
To be honest Brian, aside from the jokes and bravado I will probably just buy a ready-made airlink one as I could do with the IP23 rated case as it will live out in the ginnel.
That and the fact that I've already got so many DIY projects on the go there isn't room for another right now...
But if you did make your own I'm pretty sure you could make it for half the cost of the Airlink ones.
To be fair , the Airlink units aren't massively expensive and in the big scheme of things they provide a big upgrade in SQ for what they cost Jason . The cases are definitely not rack friendly . However they're not too big either and I'm sure could be hidden in a corner of a room if needed .
So what am I saying??? This process was all fairly quick, I normally like to listen to a component for a good few weeks before I add add another, but to briefly summarise I liked the sound of the BPS and the Regen together. Both the BPS and the Regen have their different qualities but together seemed to work better than apart.
I have also found this to be the case where the combination of AG1500 / Isotek Titan delivered a notable improvement over an singular application.
Ali Tait
23-08-2013, 10:18
To be honest Brian, aside from the jokes and bravado I will probably just buy a ready-made airlink one as I could do with the IP23 rated case as it will live out in the ginnel.
That and the fact that I've already got so many DIY projects on the go there isn't room for another right now...
But if you did make your own I'm pretty sure you could make it for half the cost of the Airlink ones.
Having built my own, I think you'd struggle to match, never mind beat the Airlink price. By the time you cost out the enclosure, RCd's, RCBO's etc. etc.
Figlet108
23-08-2013, 15:54
Good to know Ali. Now I'm even more firmly going to just buy a ready-made one than I was before. This BHW is dedicated to finishing the redecorating of the living room, so the time for purchase has pretty much arrived...
I just need to agonise over which cable to use for hard-wiring.... Do I just go with Gary's research or conduct some of my own...
Sovereign
23-08-2013, 17:50
Conduct your own of course
electric beach
23-08-2013, 18:55
Hi all,
And thanks James. Another game changer. We'll have to strive for more do and less discussion next time, but it was enlightening as ever.
I'll need a few a days of experiment and system balancing to maybe find the negatives lurking behind the obvious positives, but my first immediate confirmation was that the Airlink BPS then AG1500 combination/ order had signature qualities that I heard at James' and carried into my system, regardless of the differences in our equipment.
I must say the effect of the BPS (or rather BPS/AG combination) is HUGE :eek:
When I first had the AG1500 I thought the improvements were very worthwhile but maybe not as dramatic as I'd hoped, looking for that late night mellow of course. I have terrible power supplied to me, it's a bloody cheek they even charge me for it, then I have to pay again to clean it myself! The next time I get a power company touting for my business I'll put them on the spot as to the quality of their product. I can't see they can get it to me much faster, I mean I flick a switch and it's pretty much instant.
As James said, we heard together and my own long term experience is that the AG1500 can leave the bass a bit lacking in authority and along for the ride instead of driving a tune. Putting the BPS first in line appears to make up this deficit to give much more balance across the frequency range. Bass lines now insisted that you follow them. I didn't like the BPS on it's own when heard with James, possibly because it was just so obvious what the regenerator had contributed.
I've only just put the AG1500 first and into the BPS, but first impression is that it's quite different. Bass is stronger than with the AG solo but focus has shifted back to the mid/top, with a noticable leap in transparency, soundstage depth and clarity. There are common elements of change that imply a signature to the pairing either way round and then a choice of flavours.
Actually, bugger it, I'll get another BPS and sandwhich the AG into submission :eyebrows:
I feel like I've just bought tickets half a block closer to the stage. Valerie commented "money well spent." Which is nice.
Ali Tait
23-08-2013, 21:37
Interesting stuff. My BPS just runs the whole system, via three Belkin Pure AV filter jobbies. I haven't been arsed yet to take out the filters and see how it sounds without them. I suspect it may sound as good if it better.
I'll be keeping my eye on this thread . The BPS is one of the best , most cost - effective , upgrades to a system I've ever heard . Please keep us posted chaps .
Yes, way beyond mains cable choices.
Ali Tait
23-08-2013, 22:36
Be interested in folk's findings trying mains cables after having one of these in circuit.
Sovereign
24-08-2013, 15:20
My new balanced transformer.
Rather blurred though.
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n533/SovereignKing/IMG_8514.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/SovereignKing/media/IMG_8514.jpg.html)
Ali Tait
24-08-2013, 16:19
What's that, 1.5kva?
Sovereign
24-08-2013, 16:25
No 3Kva
Sovereign
24-08-2013, 16:26
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n533/SovereignKing/IMG_8512.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/SovereignKing/media/IMG_8512.jpg.html)
Ali Tait
24-08-2013, 16:28
Cool. From Airlink?
Sovereign
24-08-2013, 16:30
Yes
Ali Tait
24-08-2013, 19:33
How much does that weigh?
Sovereign
24-08-2013, 19:46
22kg
Ali Tait
24-08-2013, 19:55
A decent amount of iron then!
Sovereign
24-08-2013, 20:40
Weighs more than my daughter
Ali Tait
24-08-2013, 20:44
:)
That's not much bigger than the 2kVA transformer at all... Tempted to retrofit one into my unit and see if there's a difference.
Ali Tait
27-08-2013, 17:49
Interesting that my trannie weighs nearly twice that.
Sovereign
28-08-2013, 05:09
Neil,
It is bloody massive, substantially bigger than my 1.5kva I can give you measurements if that helps.
Ali,
I wonder why that might be?
Ali Tait
28-08-2013, 06:50
Dunno mate, just made by a different manufacturer I guess.
Sovereign
08-09-2013, 17:40
I had an hour free whilst the wife was out so I thought I would wire up the BPS transformer I have had sitting around. I thought I would just put it together on a board and make sure it was done correctly and that it worked before I put it in a box, use the cables of choice and hard wire it all rather than use plugs and connectors.
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n533/SovereignKing/IMG_8645.jpg (http://s1138.photobucket.com/user/SovereignKing/media/IMG_8645.jpg.html)
sq225917
08-09-2013, 17:48
That's a chunky monkey. Interested to hear the results.
brian2957
08-09-2013, 18:17
Me too . I'm currently using an AG500 with 2 Maplins PSUs ( £43 each ) plugged into it for my music server and my Bantam Gold. Not the prettiest but a very effective combination which has provided a worthwhile upgrade in SQ for little money .
http://www.maplin.co.uk/13.8v-regulated-mains-power-units-231
sq225917
08-09-2013, 21:19
I'd love to borrow the Ag1500 and try it with my main amp.
Sovereign
08-09-2013, 22:36
If you can cover the return postage you could borrow mine
Figlet108
09-09-2013, 11:44
I'd love to borrow the Ag1500 and try it with my main amp.
Simon, you are more than welcome to pop over to my place in Macc and borrow one of mine (I have 2).
sq225917
09-09-2013, 13:29
Jason, that would be awesome. I'm snowed under with other projects at present but will give you a bell in a week or two if that's Ok.
Figlet108
09-09-2013, 13:51
No worries Simon. I'll PM you my details.
Still no comparisons between the AG1500 and the PS Audio products? I know Jerry said his PPP was no march for the AG1500, but what about the P5 or P10 from PS Audio?
MikeMusic
11-09-2013, 13:42
Still no comparisons between the AG1500 and the PS Audio products? I know Jerry said his PPP was no march for the AG1500, but what about the P5 or P10 from PS Audio?
There's a P10 in Surrey and likely Hampshire up for the challenge !
Sovereign
11-09-2013, 14:38
Mike did offer for me to take my AG1500 round to his place as it is not that far but like most of us I'm super snowed under.
It would be fun arrange some sort of bakeoff. I have a well sorted balanced mains I could bring, and could bring the Audial DAC.
Am also slammed with work and family too though...!
Sovereign
11-09-2013, 19:44
Sounds good to me, we need to have a get together for the southerners.
MikeMusic
12-09-2013, 06:55
I can supply tea and buns
Sovereign
13-09-2013, 21:40
As you know I have been running 3Kva BPS - AG1500 regenerator - Hifi
I have just pulled the regen out of the system and I seem to have lost a certain openness, the music doesn't seem to hang in the air like it did and it's a bit less involving. Still sounding great overall but just lost something of the magic I had with the AG1500 regen in the chain.
brian2957
13-09-2013, 21:45
Good to know James . I run an AG500 and have no intention of removing it . Thanks for the feedback.
Hmm, those big Airlink BPS are a lot of transformer for the money - even the 5kVA one is reasonably priced. I'm keeping one in mind for a future project, but most likely when I move in 2-3 years' time. I fancy a hard-wired one to eliminate all connections up to the back of the P10. It would be fun to try one.
Figlet108
14-09-2013, 00:02
I had that 5kva Airlink BPS delivered today in fact.
Haven't had a chance to hook it up yet though.
Sovereign
14-09-2013, 05:11
Or you could buy just the transformer for even less.
Yes, but I'd spend just as much casing the bugger!
MikeMusic
14-09-2013, 10:51
Yes, but I'd spend just as much casing the bugger!
I have a good cardboard box I can let you have
:)
I had that 5kva Airlink BPS delivered today in fact.
Haven't had a chance to hook it up yet though.
Looking fwd to hearing what you think Jason.
Ali Tait
14-09-2013, 12:10
Gaz, your inbox is full mate.
Before I contemplate going down this road, I need to have a word with PS Audio first. There's a sodding great transformer inside the P10 which may be doing the job of isolation/magnetic storage/balanced power already.
Not sure why you need too I would try it out first before you commit Martin
Don't worry John, I'll speak with PS Audio first. It wouldn't be for a while even if I did do it.
Gaz, your inbox is full mate.
sorted.
Hmm, those big Airlink BPS are a lot of transformer for the money - even the 5kVA one is reasonably priced. I'm keeping one in mind for a future project, but most likely when I move in 2-3 years' time. I fancy a hard-wired one to eliminate all connections up to the back of the P10. It would be fun to try one.
Yup, hard wired is the way to go I reckon.
Sovereign
14-09-2013, 23:18
As if I have not had enough of hifi today, as I went to a bakeoff at Paul's house of Reference Fidelity components, I have been playing around with the order of the regen and BPS.
Now I have consumed a fair amount of Gin tonight so my judgement may be blurred somewhat. Nevertheless the combo's I have tried tonight are: BPS on its own, regen then BPS and BPS then regen. I didn't try the regen on it's own as my lack of sober legs would not allow me to get up and climb behind my hifi that one last time.
I usually hate instant A/b comparisons as I usually like to listen to a new component for a good few weeks then change back to how things were so I have a full understanding of how my hifi has initially changed, then realise once the new component is taken out what my hifi was like.
Anyway, the BPS on its own was sounding good, but when I took the regen out last night I felt like I lost that certain magic the regen brings, which is the ability to hang the music in the air in front of you and make it sound that bit more tangible. From running the BPS on it's own I put the regen BEFORE the BPS and I think it tamed the music down ever so slightly, again still sounding good but a little less involving and intimate. I then just ran the BPS again on its own and it brought a bit more flesh to the sound but something was missing.
I then ran the two components as I have always done which is BPS - Regen - Hifi and that magic was back. I had the meat of the BPS and the air and transparency of the Regen. It was more evident on smaller scale music but it was there to hear.
I would love to hear Electricbeach's thoughts as he has both the Regen and BPS as well. Also Figlet has just taken delivery of a FIVE Kva BPS and he has TWO AG1500 regen's so he has many options there.
I'll play around again in a few days, perhaps when the Gin has worn off.
brian2957
15-09-2013, 08:01
Thanks for the information James . I currently use an AG500 which feeds my server , Bantam Gold and Panasonic 37 inch plasma . These use 42% of the power available from the AG500 , so room for a few more components if required. I've heard Garys ( Gazjam ) balanced PSU and really liked it ., but you're correct when you state that both units do different things to the mains and so sound different in use . Garys balanced PSU is still a work in progress so we've never tried them together .
Recently I installed a couple of these into my system for the server and the Bantam Gold .
http://www.maplin.co.uk/13.8v-regulated-mains-power-units-231
I use the 7a unit . They can be adjusted internally for voltages between 10v and 16.5v very easily , so can be used for a variety of components. . These PSUs have provided me with a substantial upgrade for a very reasonable amount of money. Downsides , you have to make your own cable and they're fairly large and not very pretty . We hope to try the AG500 and the balanced PSU together soon and I will post my impressions then.
I then just ran the BPS again on its own and it brought a bit more flesh to the sound but something was missing.
I then ran the two components as I have always done which is BPS - Regen - Hifi and that magic was back. I had the meat of the BPS and the air and transparency of the Regen. It was more evident on smaller scale music but it was there to hear.
I quite concur with James on this one , albe it with a disparate set of ingredients . I have found the combination of AG1500 > Titan takes reproduction of the recording to a higher plane than that of the units utilized in the singular .
Oh no, more boxes...! My BPS ain't exactly pretty.
brian2957
15-09-2013, 10:50
All in the pursuit of audio Nirvana Neil :eyebrows: The AG500/1500 don't look too bad BTW and can be turned sideways , but very heavy though .
Sovereign
15-09-2013, 13:13
My BPS is a bit of a hummer, my hifi room is a detached converted garage with a garden shed on the end of it, I may put my BPS in the shed to keep the hifi room quiet, not quite made up my mind yet.
electric beach
15-09-2013, 13:22
I usually hate instant A/b comparisons as I usually like to listen to a new component for a good few weeks then change back to how things were so I have a full understanding of how my hifi has initially changed, then realise once the new component is taken out what my hifi was like.
Anyway, the BPS on its own was sounding good, but when I took the regen out last night I felt like I lost that certain magic the regen brings, which is the ability to hang the music in the air in front of you and make it sound that bit more tangible. From running the BPS on it's own I put the regen BEFORE the BPS and I think it tamed the music down ever so slightly, again still sounding good but a little less involving and intimate. I then just ran the BPS again on its own and it brought a bit more flesh to the sound but something was missing.
I then ran the two components as I have always done which is BPS - Regen - Hifi and that magic was back. I had the meat of the BPS and the air and transparency of the Regen. It was more evident on smaller scale music but it was there to hear.
I would love to hear Electricbeach's thoughts as he has both the Regen and BPS as well.
I'll have time for a more detailed comment later but the short answer is I agree 100%. I thought I would replace the AG1500 with the BPS but the sum is greater than either on their own. :)
It's also quite notable that the effect appears to be quite system independent and consistent.
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