Turntable...decisions oh decisions.

[selby]

At some point in the next 3-6months I want to get back vinyl...my last turntable was a Luxman PD264.

I've been looking at Pioneer PL71s, Sony 6750 and Technics SL1210 all of which seem to sell for between £300 and £500.

I was wondering how these would compare to a Project Debut Carbon or a Rega RP3, not just in terms of sound but in terms of ease of use, maintenance etc. I don't want playing vinyl to become a chore but for it to be a pleasure...

Thoughts?

[Audio Al]

The Technics SL1210 is BOMB proof

Very reliable

No belts

No idler wheels

Sounds very decent in standard form, and can be upgraded if you feel the need :)

However ALL TT's need to be set up correctly , Cartridge fitting / VTA ( vertical tracking angle )

And you need to be careful with all TT's as heavy handed use costs :eek:

Cheers

[Soulman]

The RP3 really needs the TT PSU upgrade if you intend listening to 33's and 45's (IMHO) but seems pretty simple and bulletproof. All of the other decks are easier to use out of the box and will have a different sound to the Rega.

None will become a chore.

[YNWaN]

Yeah, in terms of ease of use there's nothing to pick between them - they are all easy to use.

The Rega does need you to move the drive belt if you want to play 45's (if you don't have the external power supply option), but that is quick and easy to do (though not as quick and easy as pressing a button).

[Andrew B]

I love Regas, so no point saying the same stuff over again. If they interest you, then have a look at the slight cosmetic seconds being sold by Lintone Audio on EBay. You can have RP3s in some lovely finishes brand new boxed for £349 and free postage. A total no brainier IMO.

Good dealer too, again IMO

[selby]

Think I'm going to opt for a SL1210...I've used one a few times and they do seem bomb proof.

Need to find a nice clean example now! What cartridges do people recommend and what are the simple upgrades/improvements that can be made?

[Clive197]

Try for the SL1210M5G as that is considered to be the best model, but it's a bit more pricey. There are loads of Mk2's about but you need to be a bit more careful as a lot did not have any tender loving care.
Cartridge recommendations are a little harder, as you will need to decide on MM or MC first. The arm is not that bad, especially if you change the headshell. Basic upgrades are mat and feet after that you can spend many hundreds of pounds and fettle the deck to your hearts content. Good Luck.

[DSJR]

Of course, being me, I *should* be shouting Rega from the rooftops and pushing HiFi Dave as the seller, since he loves dealing with AOS members, but I have to say the techie does have very many friends around these parts and offers great pitch stability as well as silent backgrounds in bass frequencies if it's properly isolated, something the *cheaper* pro-jects may have difficulty with, even after all the drive revisions to the basic models in fairly recent times. Loads of parts are available for the techie still and the mk5 tonearm did apparently offer tonearm refinements over earlier versions. This is of course, long before we start on the upgrade journey which is so well documented here.

As for the other 1970's DD decks, few if any spares are available now and condition must be paramount, although as said above, prices are getting silly on the better known and better performing ones...

Rega? well, important spares can still be got for the original Planet model from forty years ago I believe and tonearm apart, the Planar models all use(d) bits available now, pretty well, so bearings, platters and motors should be easily replaceable if necessary. I believe someone found the (video machine derived?) replacement toothed bias belt for the R200 arm as well, although they wanted a good price for them - maybe AO's Johnnie has more info here.

ALL these decks need careful siting, older Rega's especially if bass quality and feedback of any sort is to be avoided. Good luck and if the final choice is either Techie or Rega, both brands are well served with setting up and tweaking experts here :)

Hope I've been fair to both main brands above..

[shane]

This looks quite tasty:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TECHNICS-SL1210-MK-2-turntable-with-mission-774-tonearm-and-KAB-external-psu-/261243352719?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item3cd351368f

[Clive197]

This looks quite tasty:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TECHNICS-SL1210-MK-2-turntable-with-mission-774-tonearm-and-KAB-external-psu-/261243352719?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item3cd351368f

IMHO I'd say avoid, looks like it has had very heavy use. Arm base looks very manky, same by stop/start.

[julesd68]

IMHO I'd say avoid, looks like it has had very heavy use. Arm base looks very manky, same by stop/start.

Good advice me thinks - you could do much better for your money ...

I personally prefer the PL-71 as a deck but very difficult to find a good one. You might well prefer the presentation of the 1210 and they aren't difficult to find in good condition. For example there is a mint looking one here with the bonus of an oak plinth for £250 ...

http://www.hifi-forsale.co.uk/moreinfo7.php?prod_title=technics_SL1210MK2&p=turntable&prod_id=4306&bq=technics&offset=

You could then take your time choosing a better arm and external PSU.

I've just noticed this is an old ad so prob not available any more but gives you an idea!

[Soulman]

I'm about to list a fairly mint sl-1210mk2 on ebay, all original with a stanton cartridge, only been used for messing around in the house.

[Tarzan]

Any Techie that a Mike New bearing will fit..........:)

[Oldpinkman]

God - this place is an introspective Techie shrine :mental:. Stock - it's OK. Very useable - a real ergonomic delight, and well built and competent. But definitely low-fi. Possibly the full hot-rod versions are as exciting as everyone says but you start to run into big bucks and need a fair bit of savvy relative to your average punter buying a gramophone from the local shop. Hot-rodded fully they are probably £2000 for the deck before an arm upgrade, and the arm is pretty ordinary (good ordinary, but ordinary). But don't let me spoil the love-in

[Audio Al]

:stalks:
God - this place is an introspective Techie shrine :mental:. Stock - it's OK. Very useable - a real ergonomic delight, and well built and competent. But definitely low-fi. Possibly the full hot-rod versions are as exciting as everyone says but you start to run into big bucks and need a fair bit of savvy relative to your average punter buying a gramophone from the local shop. Hot-rodded fully they are probably £2000 for the deck before an arm upgrade, and the arm is pretty ordinary (good ordinary, but ordinary). But don't let me spoil the love-in

:eek::sofa:

[Ammonite Audio]

God - this place is an introspective Techie shrine :mental:. Stock - it's OK. Very useable - a real ergonomic delight, and well built and competent. But definitely low-fi. Possibly the full hot-rod versions are as exciting as everyone says but you start to run into big bucks and need a fair bit of savvy relative to your average punter buying a gramophone from the local shop. Hot-rodded fully they are probably £2000 for the deck before an arm upgrade, and the arm is pretty ordinary (good ordinary, but ordinary). But don't let me spoil the love-in

I would not go quite as far as "low-fi" but Technics ownership can easily become a slippery slope of upgrades and tweakery that can get very expensive indeed (I've been there).

I've only heard one PL-71 (Richard Dunn's on two occasions) but that's where my money would go, assuming that one was for sale - servicing and recapping are cheap enough, and the arm's way better than it looks.

[shane]

IMHO I'd say avoid, looks like it has had very heavy use. Arm base looks very manky, same by stop/start.

Having now looked a bit closer, you're probably right. Scrub my original recommendation...

[Oldpinkman]

I would not go quite as far as "low-fi" but Technics ownership can easily become a slippery slope of upgrades and tweakery that can get very expensive indeed (I've been there).

I've only heard one PL-71 (Richard Dunn's on two occasions) but that's where my money would go, assuming that one was for sale - servicing and recapping are cheap enough, and the arm's way better than it looks.

I should qualify "low-fi" before I am mobbed. I didn't mean rubbish. I just meant like a very good ordinary record player. By that I mean friends, family, and recently a wife who say "I know what records sound like - never as good as CD" and then listen to "HiFi" and go "oh my God - I just never thought records could sound that good". The Techie is OK - but sounded like any number of Sony or Pioneer or Micro Seiki or other good japanese decks (and even some "hifi" from my earlier era (dual 505, Pioneer PL12d etc) which were good - but not "oh wow". That sort of low-fi. I would say as in nothing like a PT anni with a Helius Orion arm, or heaven forbid, an LP12 and all the trimmings, but how about , as in not like a Techie, with mike new bearing and PSU, fancy feet, funk platter, Dynavector DV-507 and god knows what else pimping. That sort of low-fi.

Phew :)

[Clive197]

I should qualify "low-fi" before I am mobbed. I didn't mean rubbish. I just meant like a very good ordinary record player. By that I mean friends, family, and recently a wife who say "I know what records sound like - never as good as CD" and then listen to "HiFi" and go "oh my God - I just never thought records could sound that good". The Techie is OK - but sounded like any number of Sony or Pioneer or Micro Seiki or other good japanese decks (and even some "hifi" from my earlier era (dual 505, Pioneer PL12d etc) which were good - but not "oh wow". That sort of low-fi. I would say as in nothing like a PT anni with a Helius Orion arm, or heaven forbid, an LP12 and all the trimmings, but how about , as in not like a Techie, with mike new bearing and PSU, fancy feet, funk platter, Dynavector DV-507 and god knows what else pimping. That sort of low-fi.

Phew :)

Richard, I think your digging a deeper hole for yourself. Most people on this forum who are Techie owners have to a greater or lesser extent fettled their TT's and may take your comments in a negative light.

[selby]

All really interesting...

I don't want to buy something and then be forever spending money upgrading it. So based on that would a Thorens or Rega maybe be better suited?

[vinylspinner]

Hi James,

I will chuck the Townshend Rock into the mix, great turntable, I have 3 of them, worth a look and sound great in standard form and a doddle to set up.

Nigel

[selby]

Looks great but also out of my price range.

[Clive197]

All really interesting...

I don't want to buy something and then be forever spending money upgrading it. So based on that would a Thorens or Rega maybe be better suited?

Sorry your getting a negative image here. I can only tell you my own experience.

Until June this year I owned a Linn LP12 with a Linn Ittok LVIII arm, I loved it. Then I was offered 50% more than I had paid for it, an offer I couldn't refuse.

I then purchased my Tecnics SL1210M5G. I changed the arm, mat and feet and have ended up with a SQ that well and truly beats the Linn and still have a little change left. I do not now feel the need to upgrade further.

If I sold this deck, I feel I could make a small profit again as I still have all the original parts and could get the Tecnics back to its original spec.

[julesd68]

All really interesting...

I don't want to buy something and then be forever spending money upgrading it. So based on that would a Thorens or Rega maybe be better suited?

James, in my experience, the Technics offers a very different presentation to belt-drive decks I have heard and indeed the PL-71 - it's not for me, but others swear by them, so it's really down to your ears and preferences.

If you don't want to be tempted by the infinite number of upgrades available then yes, you might well want to look elsewhere IMO. Another one to throw in the mix is the Heybrook TT2 which would be affordable. Interesting thread here if you haven't read it already -

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?3032-Heybrook-TT2-vs-Linn-LP12-%28A-B-comparison-almost%29

[Audioman]

Funny how most Techie fans came from an LP12 :). Now I can see that may be seen as an improvement. £2K worth of messing about and instead you could buy an Orbe of Hyperspace all pre-fettled by the manufacturer. :D

[Rare Bird]

If i were gonna buy a new deck today, a deck that i could pretty much be well satisfied out of the box would be a 'Gyrodec'

[Tarzan]

Sorry your getting a negative image here. I can only tell you my own experience.

Until June this year I owned a Linn LP12 with a Linn Ittok LVIII arm, I loved it. Then I was offered 50% more than I had paid for it, an offer I couldn't refuse.

I then purchased my Tecnics SL1210M5G. I changed the arm, mat and feet and have ended up with a SQ that well and truly beats the Linn and still have a little change left. I do not now feel the need to upgrade further.

If I sold this deck, I feel I could make a small profit again as I still have all the original parts and could get the Tecnics back to its original spec.



l too have a story like this, l had a megabucks belt drive/arm/cart/phone stage, and bought a Techie after being curious, and needless to say l never looked back......... l do not think l could go back to belt drive unless l won lottery, wait a minute they make hi-end DDs now.

[selby]

Never thought this would be such a topic of debate!

So confused...think if a 1210 in good condition came my way I'd have to try it with the basic tweaks!

[Tarzan]

Never thought this would be such a topic of debate!

So confused...think if a 1210 in good condition came my way I'd have to try it with the basic tweaks!


Try a beat up old one from that auction site, l did and was pleasantly surprised at what was on offer, mod inexpensively to start.......

[selby]

Been looking on eBay but really don't want one from a spotty teenager who's been attempting to be FatBoy Slim.

So of anyone has a tidy one for sensible money let me know, or to be fair any tidy suitable TT that would be suitable.

[Oldpinkman]

Never thought this would be such a topic of debate!

So confused...think if a 1210 in good condition came my way I'd have to try it with the basic tweaks!

I often "rent" things from ebay. If you buy a techie and don't like it you can always sell it on. It is, and is likely to remain for the foreseeable future, readily tradeable. So what have you got to lose. The same would apply to something like a Rega RP3 or variants.

However, once you start modifying, your money is fast going for good - never to be seen again. This applies to turntables, cars, boats, model helicopters - you name it. If you spend £2000 pimping the turntable, you are very unlikely to get anything like that back when you sell it, unless maybe on here you find someone convinced they want to go for just that. By contrast if you spend £250 on a techie, are not sure, buy say a Gyrodeck 2nd hand for £750, and don't like it - you are likely to be able to sell that Gyrodeck for pretty much what you paid for it.

I haven't heard a fully kitted Techie. I suspect actually, heresy as this is for a PT boy to admit, the dear old turntable is less important than I used to believe. Isolation and termination (the mat) seem to be the main influences (given the standard "spec" items of speed stability, and low noise - wow& flutter and rumble are met)

If I look back, I am forced to wonder just what anyone thought was so special about the LP12. Its sound was defined by its boinging sub-chassis and felt mat. By contrast (see the thread about "I discovered something about myself") the radical switch to an acrylic platter on the PT made a wonderful (or shocking depending on your perspective) difference. I now see this because until the months when I jumped in with my own cash, LP12's would almost always have partnered good arms. As standard was the Ittok which was not bad. I think much of the "up" from ordinary TT's (PL12, Dual 505, and a dozen or more Sony, Panasonic and the like "top" domestic tt's - of which the techie was just another) was the arm. So Linn launched a standard techie, PL12 etc type arm to make their TT's affordable - I bought one - the LV-V, and there was nothing special about an LP12 except for it's felt mat. Fortunately I stuck mine on a PT instead, and got the benefit of a genuinely different turntable.

Long ramble. Conclusion is - consider "renting" from ebay, if you can't audition direct. Bear in mind if you upgrade by upgrading to standard products - you will pretty much get your money back. If you upgrade by modifiying you are much less likely to. ;)

PS: that is you will not lose money up-grading standard products bought 2nd hand. If you buy new - and you get the benefit of being able to go and audition new products - then they lose 40% in value as you walk out the shop door :doh:

[Audioman]

I often "rent" things from ebay. If you buy a techie and don't like it you can always sell it on. It is, and is likely to remain for the foreseeable future, readily tradeable. So what have you got to lose. The same would apply to something like a Rega RP3 or variants.

However, once you start modifying, your money is fast going for good - never to be seen again. This applies to turntables, cars, boats, model helicopters - you name it. If you spend £2000 pimping the turntable, you are very unlikely to get anything like that back when you sell it, unless maybe on here you find someone convinced they want to go for just that. By contrast if you spend £250 on a techie, are not sure, buy say a Gyrodeck 2nd hand for £750, and don't like it - you are likely to be able to sell that Gyrodeck for pretty much what you paid for it.

I haven't heard a fully kitted Techie. I suspect actually, heresy as this is for a PT boy to admit, the dear old turntable is less important than I used to believe. Isolation and termination (the mat) seem to be the main influences (given the standard "spec" items of speed stability, and low noise - wow& flutter and rumble are met)

If I look back, I am forced to wonder just what anyone thought was so special about the LP12. Its sound was defined by its boinging sub-chassis and felt mat. By contrast (see the thread about "I discovered something about myself") the radical switch to an acrylic platter on the PT made a wonderful (or shocking depending on your perspective) difference. I now see this because until the months when I jumped in with my own cash, LP12's would almost always have partnered good arms. As standard was the Ittok which was not bad. I think much of the "up" from ordinary TT's (PL12, Dual 505, and a dozen or more Sony, Panasonic and the like "top" domestic tt's - of which the techie was just another) was the arm. So Linn launched a standard techie, PL12 etc type arm to make their TT's affordable - I bought one - the LV-V, and there was nothing special about an LP12 except for it's felt mat. Fortunately I stuck mine on a PT instead, and got the benefit of a genuinely different turntable.

Long ramble. Conclusion is - consider "renting" from ebay, if you can't audition direct. Bear in mind if you upgrade by upgrading to standard products - you will pretty much get your money back. If you upgrade by modifiying you are much less likely to. ;)

PS: that is you will not lose money up-grading standard products bought 2nd hand. If you buy new - and you get the benefit of being able to go and audition new products - then they lose 40% in value as you walk out the shop door :doh:

Long Ramble but very sensible advice Richard. An accurate perspective on the LP12 - No wonder many ex owners are impressed by Technics. I would add that a modded Technics is likely worth much more if you return to standard and sell of the mod components separately on this forum. However demand for the more esoteric upgrades is extremely limited. Mitchell decks are a good buy as they hold their value extremely well. I would add Notts Analogue tend to loose a lot more value initially which can make them a bargain when they occasionally show up. Any really high end (price wise) decks will take a big hit but that could make them a good used buy providing they make a significant improvement over Mitchell or Notts Analogue.

I have heard only a few mega expensive decks that make a significant improvement over the above brands rather than sounding different. Otherwise for inexpensive 'vintage' designs I would suggest Systemdek IIX, Heybrook TT2, AR (ES1 or EB101) or Thorens TD160S. All these can be bought on ebay and sold on without a financial penalty as long as you don't get into a bidding war.

Paul.

[Ammonite Audio]

If I look back, I am forced to wonder just what anyone thought was so special about the LP12. Its sound was defined by its boinging sub-chassis and felt mat.

About 30 years ago I decided to buy a new "Super Deck". Led enthusiastically by the magazine reviews, I went out and auditioned the LP12, Logic DM101, and the Pink Triangle. The Logic was pretty good (if ugly), but there was no way that I could buy something so shoddily built as the Pink Triangle (it was a truly dreadful thing to behold and did not sound very special in the dem); however the LP12 was as good as the Logic, at the same price point, but with excellent quality and looks, which is why I bought one with Ittok LVII and A&R P77 cartridge. People seem to forget that the LP12 brought a level of quality and service to the market that, ultimately and IMO, improved the audio industry. The critical point here, and relevant to this thread, is the importance of hearing and listening - I was very happy with my LP12; and if I had only understood how to set it up properly, I might never have sold it and then saved myself many thousands of pounds in senseless upgrades. I am saddened by the constant sneering at Linn and the LP12 on forums such as this - my LP12 brought music and something approaching an understanding of music to my life. My TD-124 does that too, but at a not inconsiderable cost (rather less than a fully pimped Technics, of course;)).

We all have different auditory systems and tastes, so all that matters is the listening. That's why there's still room for good dealers in this world who can guide a buyer towards a good selection of gear and provide a home dem too. The OP mentioned ease of use and not wanting vinyl playback to be a chore, but the music has to tickle the appropriate spot, so there's much to be said for getting a home dem of new or old gear to work out what can deliver ease of use and musical satisfaction. A Technics certainly delivers ease of use out of the box.

I still reckon that a PL-71 would be a sound bet, should one come up for sale.

[Clive197]

If your having problems finding something you like on the bay, try www.hififorsale.com they have a reasonable reputation, but I have not bought anything from the site myself, maybe others can advise.

[Tarzan]

Been looking on eBay but really don't want one from a spotty teenager who's been attempting to be FatBoy Slim.

So of anyone has a tidy one for sensible money let me know, or to be fair any tidy suitable TT that would be suitable.


Was Audio Al selling (from this very site) a couple l believe?

[DSJR]

I should qualify "low-fi" before I am mobbed. I didn't mean rubbish. I just meant like a very good ordinary record player. By that I mean friends, family, and recently a wife who say "I know what records sound like - never as good as CD" and then listen to "HiFi" and go "oh my God - I just never thought records could sound that good". The Techie is OK - but sounded like any number of Sony or Pioneer or Micro Seiki or other good japanese decks (and even some "hifi" from my earlier era (dual 505, Pioneer PL12d etc) which were good - but not "oh wow". That sort of low-fi. I would say as in nothing like a PT anni with a Helius Orion arm, or heaven forbid, an LP12 and all the trimmings, but how about , as in not like a Techie, with mike new bearing and PSU, fancy feet, funk platter, Dynavector DV-507 and god knows what else pimping. That sort of low-fi.

Phew :)

My main experience is of the earlier SL150 and SL1500 series 1 non-quartz models. OK ok, I appreciate that visuals are the only thing really tieing the two models together, but I should say this if I may -

The SL1500 used 'raw' isn't really very good sounding. ISOLATION/support and feet tinkering, removing the lid when playing and a more sympathetic mat make a heck of a sonic improvement. Lo-fi it certainly ain't with a few cheap tweaks. It'd take a little more work, but I suspect the earlier SL110 and SL120 could do the same, although the structures were very 'live' and resonant in stock form.

The SL1200mk2 onwards had numerous improvements as I recall. Damped platter and plinth, a pretty well state of the art drive (Rega, Pro-ject and even Linn would kill to have something that good for the price (Ivor told me personally the LP12 could have been direct drive in a different life)) and a low mass tonearm with great bearings. To lift the performance, a simple mat and foot change should do to start with (take the lid off when playing) and not cost a fortune. All the other 'stuff' is as much to do with third parties making a fast buck on 'upgrades' as much as small incremental sonic upgrades. Thing is, many of you guys can afford it, so this becomes self-serving and I don't doubt that the more you spend on these bigger changes, the more capable the basic drive and plinth system becomes. You can end up spending a good few grand though...

P.S. My last SL1500 sounded fab with a cork mat and Supex 900E cartridge in a current Techie headshell. My fascination with Garrards and Lenco's took over so the techie was sold, but I'm still very fond of this model - no speed hunting/dynamic wow and a heavier tonearm perfect for current cartridges if the bearings are ok (some aren't and need adjusting).

[Audio Al]

Was Audio Al selling (from this very site) a couple l believe?

Yes , I have 2 SL1210 MK11 available :)

[selby]

Audio Al - ping me a PM regarding one of your 1210

[Beobloke]

I am saddened by the constant sneering at Linn and the LP12 on forums such as this - my LP12 brought music and something approaching an understanding of music to my life.

For what it's worth, I quite agree. Yes the whole hype and way it was rammed down people's throats as the only turntable you could possibly have back in the 1980s was quite saddening and caused a good deal of worthwhile alternatives to fall by the wayside, simply because they had the wrong badge. Equally, I don't believe it is the best turntable in the world, nor was it ever.

However, it's a British success story, it's well made and there are a myriad of tweaks that you can make to it to take the sound in pretty much whatever direction you like. Yes it needs to be set up carefully (but equally, this isn't the mystical and hideously complicated process many would have you believe!) but, ultimately, get it right and it makes some damn nice noises.

Cut the old fella some slack!

[Clive197]

Just for the record, I loved the sound that my LP12 gave me for 9yrs, but I was made an offer that I could not refuse.

In no way was I knocking the Linn and even enjoyed the set up process, which in fairness did need to be done a little too often.

Other wise I agree with Beobloke's comments totally.

[Oldpinkman]

Believe and enjoy what you like, but I am convinced the LP12 was one of the great cons. It wasn't so much it was bad (although the setup nonsense was a nonsense for a consumer product). It just was basically the same as so many others and offered nothing new. It's sound derived from its felt mat (everyone was rubber before that) and its "weightyness". But nobody ever played an LP12. They played an LP12 with an arm and a cartridge on, and it was those components made it better than "ordinary" record players. CD came along and the Linn sound, started to lack detail , imaging....

[walpurgis]

I'd agree!

CD showed the average Hi-Fi user what true, deep, tight bass was for the first time.

Unless you were using top quality reel to reel tape with expensive recordings, bass like that just was not heard, Vinyl recordings were going through a bad period too. From the late seventies and through much of the eighties.

[Andrew B]

I'm not a fan of the LP12 but I can't say I've expereienced the same quality of bass from CD as vinyl. CD always seems lacking in this area to me. Just my experience, so good on anyone who has managed it.

[DSJR]

Believe and enjoy what you like, but I am convinced the LP12 was one of the great cons. It wasn't so much it was bad (although the setup nonsense was a nonsense for a consumer product). It just was basically the same as so many others and offered nothing new. It's sound derived from its felt mat (everyone was rubber before that) and its "weightyness". But nobody ever played an LP12. They played an LP12 with an arm and a cartridge on, and it was those components made it better than "ordinary" record players. CD came along and the Linn sound, started to lack detail , imaging....


Ummm - I don't think that's quite right, with the deepest respect :)

The LP12 with SME or Grace arms was well balanced. Not as 'clean' as a modern deck, but with G707 and Supex, it made 1970's pop/rock LP's especially, sound really involving to listen to. Classical music the Supex could track (most were good but some were terrible trackers - I have one of each!) sounded three dimensional and highly spacious, and not really in an exaggerated way either. Good setup was essential though, not made better by the fact that no two 1970's/early 80's LP12's were the same to set up. I promise you that skill and EXPERIENCE with these things was highly necessary to get the best from them in this period!

1980 arrives. The Asak had sort-of displaced the Supex, Grace headshells being reamed out to make the bloody thing fit. The sound went lean and spacially 'flatter' for a while, although the internally glued-up Asak 'T' helped control the excesses better. the Grace was being taxed beyond its capabilities by this point - it was a low mass arm designed for mid 70's CD-4 cartridges like the JVC-Z1 for example - and we started using Mission 774's and Hadcocks instead quite often, along with other fashionable low mass arms from AT and Infinity (Black Widow), these working well on a sorted deck. The Nirvana kit came along too...

What totally f****d it was the launch of the Ittok! The arm was more 'solid' and seemed to totally upset the bass performance of the LP12 for a good while. of course, 'we' didn't care about this, since it made an all Linn turntable/speaker system a sellable possibility. Naim amps went harsh toned in their early CB guise and this helped balance the fruity bass out. Music played on this turntable still seemed to major on the emotional and basic clarity levels very well, despite the tone being skewed towards a plump bass. the Asak wasn't a good tracker, so many users avoided playing taxing orchestral, piano or choral works I remember.

Some LP12/Ittok/Asak combo's sounded really good and actually quite neutral, if not as 'easy' as well sorted 'modern' turntable combinations, whereas others were a mess, probably due to a bad plinth more than anything else. The introduction of the karma made things worse, since the Karma was smoother and less spacially flat and 'nasal' sounding as the Asak was increasingly becoming.

It wasn't really until the Cirkus kit for the LP12, that this deck sort of returned to some semblance of neutrality, albeit a little 'dark-toned. The fresh inner hub and main bearing helped with a good number of iffy mid 80's examples which weren't bad enough to replace under warranty when there was a massive issue with thrust-plate hardening, but which were getting too worn in ten years or so regular use.

I could go on and on and on and on and on... but dinner calls, so I'll save you the boredom of further typing :)

[julesd68]

Supposedly the 'ultimate' LP12 - bids start at £9,995 :hmm:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Linn-Sondek-LP12-Klimax-Specification-/261265837354?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item3cd4a84d2a

[Stratmangler]

Supposedly the 'ultimate' LP12 - bids start at £9,995 :hmm:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Linn-Sondek-LP12-Klimax-Specification-/261265837354?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item3cd4a84d2a

I chuckled at the bid count - 0 at present :D

[Oldpinkman]

Briefly - I think my point about the LP12 was related to the "little differences big differences" thread. The LP12 as a floating, metal plattered, felt matted single speed disk spinner did it all well enough. But it didnt really contribute much to the sound - it didn't sound different to other metal plattered standard mat decks. With good arms it did that sound very well. In really simple terms, and this was the big fuss at the time, it didnt sound like the new CD's. I know CD's were harsh but they opened up HiFi to levels of detail and a tonal balance that wasnt there before. And if you've been anywhere near a recording studio, those elements of CD are HiFi and were being missed by "normal" record players. You could like that sound. The LP12 had engineered up doing that sound. But it was basically "old" "non-cd" and "wrong". By contrast, the PT sounded very different, like CD, and that was among the reason many didnt like it. But tonally, in terms of detail, particularly in the mid and treble region, PT sounded lots different, and Anni was the "engineered up" version of that type of sound. So in the same way LP12 made noticeable real improvements on say a Thorens, it still was refining that model (small differences). The PT threw the model out and created a completely alternative (I venture mostly accurate) sound. The Anni engineered that up with small, but still real, and worthwile differences around that new model.

Off to the pool!:ner:

[walpurgis]

What totally f****d it was the launch of the Ittok!

I did not get on with the Ittok, despite having mine for a couple of years mounted on my 401. It had allowed a coarseness to come into the presentation at the top end. Also, it absolutely hated Deccas, making them sound particularly thin and scratchy. I bought a good used Mission 774 out of curiosity and it wiped the floor with the Ittok. Needless to say the Linn arm went and the (slightly modded) Mission is still here 25 years on. It works just fine with every cartridge I've tried in it, from high compliance MM, to Deccas and MCs.

[Andrew B]

To me, both CD replay and PT decks sound somewhat "wrong" In the way they portray music. The level of "detail" is forced and it just doesn't hang together like real music. Bass too, is just not convincing in the same way I hear it live.

The LP12 also sounded wrong as it was just too fruity and its pitch was poor to me. I did find it more enjoyable than a PT though and I did find it better than rival decks with suspension and felt mats. It still wasn't the "right bowl of porridge" as far as I was concerned though.

I'm not claiming my "truths" are any more valid than anyone else's but by the same token, I don't accept anyone else's assertions that they are right either. If it works for you, don't worry about others. Just don't expect everyone else to like the same things.

This is why I really have an issue with hifi "experts". When it comes to listening, there can be only one expert and that's the listener.

[Clive197]

To me, both CD replay and PT decks sound somewhat "wrong" In the way they portray music. The level of "detail" is forced and it just doesn't hang together like real music. Bass too, is just not convincing in the same way I hear it live.

I'm not claiming my "truths" are any more valid than anyone else's but by the same token, I don't accept anyone else's assertions that they are right either. If it works for you, don't worry about others. Just don't expect everyone else to like the same things.

This is why I really have an issue with hifi "experts". When it comes to listening, there can be only one expert and that's the listener.

Well said Sir.

[Andrew B]

Cheers, Clive. I added a bit above regarding the LP12, just to be balanced. As long as anyone loves the sound they have, it's all good!